Professor Barbara Sahakian, Cambridge University, Professor Goldie Nejat, Toronto University
Exploring the issues surrounding using robots in warfare, healthcare, and the classroom.
Hannah - Barbara is a President of the International Neuro Ethics Society. Barbara, and joins to discuss ethical issues that were raised during the meeting here.
Barbara - Yes. I mean, one reason we held this was because obviously the robotics technology and everything is taking off. Thereís a lot of important issues to do with society. We want to make sure everything is for the benefit of society within the International Neuro Ethics Society, and we want to look at the impact that these new technologies will have on people.
Hannah - So, Goldie you mentioned that one of your robots , your 3D robots cost about $10,000 dollars to produce at the moment which is considerably cheaper than employing a nursing assistant or a care worker for a year. So Barbara, what are the concerns regarding that, and how on Earth do you discuss these concerns with policy makers and businesses?
Barbara - Goldie mentioned a few of the aspects that she does in her work to make sure that things are done in an ethical way in terms of bringing in the carer to discuss what needs to be done with this particular individual so itís more focused on the person themselves. And I think thatís what we really need to do with these things, is to think of them as aids for people in situations where perhaps there isnít enough help. And if a robot doesnít do it, nobody will do it.
But on the other hand, as a society, I mean, how do we want to behave? Do we want to just say, ďOkay, Itís fine for robots to do all these thingsĒ, and to leave people to interact with a robot even no matter how good it is. Perhaps itís not as good as a human being in terms of quality of interaction, and do they give the same sense of well-being that you might have if youíre interacting with a human.
I think as a society, we have to think how much do we want to use these techniques to help with situations that we canít deal with in other ways. If youíre going into a very dangerous situation, one for instance they were removing nuclear waste and things like that, you have to be concerned about the health of a human being versus just a normal social interaction that one hopefully would expect in society to get from another person.
Goldie of course mentioned that itís early stages development but what was raised tonight which was very interesting in discussion, raised the ethical issue about vulnerable populations being exposed to robotics because there are issues to do with.
As a society, do we find it disturbing that perhaps somebody who is demented doesnít actually realize theyíre being care for by a robot or forms unusual attachments to the robot that is unexpected and, you know, some people might feel itís duping the person into behaving in a way that most people might regard as unnatural. So, thereís a lot of ethical issues that come out of this type of work as well.
Hannah - And finally, Goldie, I just wondered whether your robots would ever be used in education or child care, for example.
Goldie - Yes. So, we are designing actually social robot, search-and-rescue with other applications where weíre trying to use robots really as assistives. Like I mentioned before, the idea, is can robots be used as a tool, right? And can it be used as a training tool, as a tool to help people in dangerous situations where you can have a robot do it for search-and-rescue, for example, rather than put more human lives at risk. So, itís kind of this open idea of how do you interact with a robot and can you interact with it socially, then the applications kind of become unlimited that you could use it as assistive technology.
Hannah - Barbara.
Barbara - I thought another very important point that Goldie raised was the essentially cognitive training or sometimes itís called brain training in some sense. But trying to improve memory and all the people and the patients with dementia and I thought it was very interesting the way the robots had these facial expressions to try and encourage people and thatís a very positive thing. But one maybe has to balance that against the fact weíre now developing games that are used to do same sorts of things. And people who work in the game industry know very well how to increase motivation and somebodyís getting frustrated, how to bring the level down easily. And it might be just easier to have an iPad with a game on it rather than perhaps a complicated robot thatís trying to speak to you and encourage you to turn a card over.
Hannah - On a related note, I heard recently that about an autistic boy who forged a friendship with Siri the artificial virtual assistant with a voice-controlled natural language interface. Siri's got a synthetic voice. The autistic boy's mother claimed it kind of helped him to understand world and his sense of reality, and also, helped him to galvanize almost a sense of empathy with this synthetic voice. So, do you think that there is Ė not just for 3D robots but also 2D robots Ė this extra way of helping autistic children maybe, for example, or other types of vulnerable people using robots.
Barbara - There are some very good experiments actually with avatars. And they show that it helps children learn how to interact with other children so that when autistic children go back into the classroom after theyíve had some of the training with the avatar, they actually are much better at knowing how they should respond to different situations and interact with children in a more effective way. So theyíre more popular and they fit in better, so yes, these techniques turning out to be very good for special groups that need help with social interaction or other forms of cognition.
Hannah - And Proffer Ronald Arkin who spoke on the use of robots in the military, was mentioning something along the lines of 45% of American soldiers admitted that they would go against protocol and actually fire on civilians given certain situations which obviously you can program a computer or a robot not to do that. So, you could actually use arguing that could decrease the amount of humans, and specifically, civilians that are being killed in warfare.
Barbara - Absolutely. So, his idea was that collateral damage and the other damage to civilians, children would be less and if thatís the case, thatíll be fantastic. But obviously, itís untried at the moment. That is what his aim his and I thought that that was very good that heís kind of got this moral intention with the robotics to actually make them act in an ethical way. You know, if they identify a school bus, if they identify a hospital, they donít actually damage that building or that bus. People are concerned about who is responsible if, for instance in the context of warfare, one of the robotics thatís being used is out of control or is doing something that it wasnít planned to do because weíve all had the experience of computers going badly wrong. Itís important that we are able to identify these problems early on and be able to deal with those. Warfare itself is horrible. People are very concerned about deaths of civilians involved but itís one thing if at least it felt that itís necessary and that human beings are involved in making the decisions. But when that is taken away, people get very concerned about will it escalate, you know, if weíre using machines and weíre not actually using human lives or wasting human lives.
Hannah - Weíre going to close now with the last question that was asked at the end of this eveningís discussion which was, how do think society will change as we get more and more used to robots being used in different roles within it? How will it affect us as individuals and as a society more generally? Goldie.
Goldie - I think itís really actually an exciting time to see. If we look back in history, thereís been a lot of technologies, right? Starting from the industrial revolution, all the way to when TVs, you know, came into our households and how people were going to behave, then computers, cell phones, and so on. So, I think of us as kind of developers and at this is just looking at the applications and really where we want to take this technology. So I think itís an exciting time to see really make sure that weíre designing these robots for society. We need to help society, right? Then I think this is the best time to kind of really discuss and think about the policies so that we can shape this into the future.
Hannah - Barbara.
Barbara - Well, I agree with what Goldie said. I think itís absolutely brilliant that weíve got all this new technology and will be very helpful. There are situations where, as we mentioned, itís unsafe not to use a robot and you know to put a human in the front line at that stage could be very hazardous if this toxic waste does something else. So, I think itís great that we have the ability to use all this new robotic information that we have but what we have to do is what we did tonight which is really discuss it with members of the public and amongst ourselves to see that we have a really good ethical way of proceeding.
Hannah - And the very last question posed at the end of the session was, whatís the role of robots in sex? So apparently, you can buy robots for sex over the internet and the comments surrounding this concerned how it could benefit society by helping to set free those currently trapped in human trafficking. Thanks to Goldie Nejat and Barbara Sahakian.