Brian Starkey asked:
From where do permanent magnets get their energy or power? I can put a fridge magnet on a fridge, and it seems as if it will stay there forever with no sign of any power source. Also, if I try to push the like poles of two bar magnets together, my arms will grow tired long before the magnets grow weak, yet again there is no power or energy source. Can we not harness this invisible and seemingly endless source of energy?
Alastair Rae, University of Birmingham
At this time of year, many of us decorate our fridges by attaching magnets carrying pictures of Christmas puddings, holly, Father Christmas, snowmen and so on. One advantage of these magnets is that they are easily removed and replaced when Christmas is over. Brian Starkey asks, ‘how can they stay on the fridges when there is no obvious power source?’
The first point to note is that we don’t need any energy to stand still! A stationary car with its engine turned off doesn’t use any petrol! Power is required only when the engine starts turning and the car starts moving. What we have in the case of a fridge magnet is a magnetic force pulling the magnet against the iron door; this then leads to a frictional force that stops the magnet sliding down under gravity, but once the magnet is in place, no energy or power is consumed keeping it there. It’s not very different in principle to sticking the magnet onto the fridge using glue.
When Brian pushes the two like poles of a magnet together, he has to apply a force and use energy. If they are then allowed to move apart, this energy is released and converted into motion. However, if he holds them together without letting them move, no more power is needed. It’s perhaps easier to understand this if we think of the magnets being supported by a rigid frame instead of by a person. Why then do Brian’s arms grow tired if he is not doing any work? This is all to do with biology and the complex way our muscles work: chemical energy has to be burned to keep them stiff and able to exert pressure. But magnets are not like that: they exert a force pushing each other apart and do not consume any power as long as they don’t move.
Every electron in the metal acts as a magnetic dipole. Dipoles are the simplest sources of magnetic fields. In order to generate a permanent magnet form a metal, you force all these dipoles to line up, so the tiny fields they each generate all add together to make a big field.
About "their energy" it depends on what you mean: every magnetic field has an energy associated with itself: U = 1/2 μ H2 where U is the energy density (energy per unit volume), so, to create a magnet, which in this case is equivalent to align those magnetic moments of which jpetruccelli wrote, you certainly have to give some energy to that system.
You have beaten me by 20 seconds! lightarrow, Fri, 7th Dec 2007
We do harness this energy, its called a generator (or dynamo). Check electromagnetic induction, Lenz's law and Faraday laws. How does the magnet get its magnetism? In the case of permanent magnets, there are magnetic domains where various numbers of molecules of the material "line up" in a particular direction. (These are not molecular magnets.) These domains exist in many materials in random directions but in certain materials, eg. nickel cobalt and iron they can be made to line up forming a permanent magnet. Fridgemagnet, Thu, 13th Dec 2007
I notice that nobody has actually answered the question yet.
These replies all seem to have come from a textbook which was written by someone who reads textbooks. The "irrational" mind would serve to at least stimulate here. Is it possible that our definition of "work" may be flawed. Is it possible that merely "acting" on a body, either in motion or at rest, does indeed constitute work? Is it possible that the energy is actually input into the magnet at a rate equal to the energy "lost". Is it possible that we humans have all the answers regarding physics, and no modification to what we "know" will ever be made? Is it possible that man cannot and will not ever "fly like a bird"? I think we had all better preface our statements with "I am told" or "I read" until we actually figure out some of our other seemingly unexplained mysteries, like where 75% of the matter (energy) in the universe resides. Wayne, Tue, 26th Aug 2008
hey there. i'm 18 years old and i stay in south africa... and i had a idea of building an engine out of magnets. does anyone think that this will be possible? and how can that work? i have had a few ideas already but they dont work properly, now im studying magnets so that i can find a way that magnets can change the world and no petrol or any energy is used to power things... if anyone has any ideas can you please help me out. my e-mail: email@example.com thank you, Michael. Michael, Fri, 14th Nov 2008
Thank you for the answers to this question which has been bothering me for a while. I see how magnets are made, how they work through aligned mangnetic domains and how they form feilds. But some questions remain... A parked car uses no energy, yet I cannot stick it to a metal wall and hang it there in defiance of gravity for years at a time like I can with a fridge magnet. Where does the energy for this come from? You easily stick a magnet of several kilos upside down to a metal plate, that requires watts of power to hold there. If it were glued there, no power is used, but a feild requires energy. Neil, Tue, 27th Jan 2009
I don't pretend to know any better than anyone else the answer to this question, however I do have an idea. The Earth has a magnetic field, much like a magnet does. Hence the reason the compass points north and so on. Obviously a magnetic field has its own energy, anyone who would chose to argue that just doesn't know what they are talking about. You hear people talk all the time about renewable energy, and how it doesn't exist, and how endless power supplies don't exit. It would seem to me that the magnet is the answer to both of those, and mankind has chosen to ignore it thusfar. Its not too hard to see that mankind has a recent history of rejecting the obvious answers just because it requires a change in our way of thinking, and god forbit we figure out something that disproves anyones theory, that would just make them look stupid. So, magnets must be an endless source of renewable energy that we just haven't opened our eyes to. It would be my guess that it could be used as the greenest source of energy possible, provided by nature, which causes no known harm to the environment or humanity in any way. That being the case, I would also say that the reason we haven't decided to look into that in more depth, is because humanity is so stubborn, and would rather argue and fight over it for another 1000 years instead of just going with the flow. Timmy, Sun, 1st Feb 2009
Wow, I would agree. And here are some examples. MAGLEV, this is a magnetic levitation teqnique used to levitate and often propell trains. Perfectly clean, renewable energy as the magnets produce no exhaust, and use no energy. Harmless, Sun, 1st Feb 2009
To see an example of a working device you should check out youtube and search for the Minato magnetic motor. I find that Magnets are fascinating. I have two stacks of 1" disk magnets levitating inside of a transparent glass tube. They have sat on my desk for the last ten years without any loss in repulsion. The two stacks of 1" disks were set into repulsion mode and were carefully placed inside of a 1" diameter glass tube. Daniel Pearson, Thu, 5th Feb 2009
Some of the answers here can be summed up as "I don't understand the answer the scientists give me, therefore the scientists must be wrong". This is fallacious logic. It is however very understandable since the physics at work in magnets is very counter-intuitive. It seems only natural that magnets have their own energy source since you - among other things - can use magnets to transform physical movement into electricity. But they are just passive mediums. I have some science education from university and still have a hard time wrapping my head around this topic. However, I don't claim that scientists are wrong just because _I_ don't fully understand the theory. By production and implementation scientists prove daily that the theory of magnetic force is correct and accurate. This might help you understanding the principle of magnetic energy without the difficult physics: Magnetic fields have properties that resemble gravity. A car is attracted to earth just like two magnets are attracted to each other. A car standing on the ground doesn't use up earth's gravity, neither does lifting the car out to space outside the earth's gravity field. Pulling two magnets apart is similar to lifting a car from the ground: When you pull them apart you add potential energy equal to what is released when you let them fall back together. The anology of a spring is also quite good. It can be used for absorbing and releasing energy, but the spring itself doesn't have it's own power source. The fact that you use a lot of muscle energy failing to pull two strong magnets apart is equal to failing to pull a solid piece of rock in two parts. The muscle energy used is radiated into the air as heat, no energy is put into the either the magnets or the rock. Jørgen Bøckman, Thu, 26th Mar 2009
i don't think so from falling rock raghavendra, Mon, 6th Apr 2009
Magnets do indeed seem to defy mr Neuton in a way. I bought a magnetic clamp for my table saw a while back. This device clamps onto the table with the simple twist of a knob which removes a simple baffle between the magnet and the table. The torque required to do this can easily be done with ones baby finger what 2 inch pounds over 90 degrees of twist, yet when in the clamp position I can literally lift hte whole table-- nearly 100 pounds . Thsi makes no sense whatsoever. I am exerting less than 1/50th of the force required to clamp the device. Something is missing no equal opposite reaction applies here...So there is no answer here (sorry) but a suggestion that we have to look deeper and with more humility and more of an open and more determined mind than science offers at this time.... lichardi, Fri, 17th Apr 2009
It doesn't take much force to apply glue either, which could have the same effect. Madidus_Scientia, Mon, 11th May 2009
It seems to me that the real question is about potential energy. When two magnets are set up in such away that they will try to pull or push each other, it's much the same as a heavy weight being positioned where it can fall downwards towards the Earth. The energy is stored as potential energy and can be converted to kinetic energy if one of the magnets or the weight is allowed to move. By raising a weight we can turn kinetic energy back into potential energy. When you compress a spring you also convert kinetic energy into potential energy which can later be recovered and turned back into kinetic energy.
the power comes from the magnetic force feild of the earth gurpal, Wed, 22nd Jul 2009
No matter what the question was this "the power comes from the magnetic force feild of the earth" was never the answer. Bored chemist, Wed, 22nd Jul 2009
I am trying to affiliate myself with people like you here to develop maybe not perpetual motion but something close to develop electricity, there are hundreds of ideas already in existance but not much on the market, perhaps I can intrigue someone to get in touch with me to help me develop further my ideas Michael L, Thu, 17th Sep 2009
So... I understand how all the static magnets behave. What I don't understand is how can this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PDeK6rprA4&feature=related work? Considering the friction and air drag, this fan shouldn't be working. Yet it does. Mike, Sun, 14th Oct 2012
I still don't get it. Suppose we had a weight on one magent that was suspended below another magnet and the weight was just enough to keep the weight suspended, but to keep the magnets apart. There must be some energy being expended to keep them in this position? amster, Fri, 22nd Feb 2013
I believe the magnetic force is caused by the accumulation of the aligned atoms within the magnet. these aligned atoms have electron 'clouds' which are polarized (north/south). the electrons are essentially 'speeding' around each atom (more or less. i don't feel like getting into quantum physics at the moment) creating and electron field or cloud. when all the atoms within a material are aligned with one another, the electron fields are shared as a common whole, more or less. electricity and magnetism are two aspects of one whole, the photon. as electricity flows, a field of magnetism is produced around it, and vise versa. so basically, the atoms all align, therefor creating one large electric flow of sorts, and thereby creating one large shared, magnetic field. So, basically what i'm trying to say is that the magnetic force itself comes from the nucleus of the atom, holding the electrons in orbit, compiling the fields together, creating a magnetic force. essentially, it's powered by nuclear force. electromagnetic force, and strong and weak nuclear forces (which bind the atom together) are all different representations of the photon. so the answer is basically that the magnet gets its power from the universal energy that binds all things together, the same source that causes fission and explosions, and chemistry, and teddy bears, and the sun, and...carpet ants. just another form of the energy, condensed into a specific orientation, combination, variation, etc ( you get the point i'm sure) to come together to form what we call a magnet with it's magnetic force. I hope that helps. malaki, Wed, 15th Jan 2014
if it is due to electricity in a factory then the electric energy must be constantly converted into magnetic energy. conversion of electric energy into other forms of energy takes place naturally only when the conductor has some amount of resistance to electric current. is this even true that electric energy is being the source of magnetic energy? if yes, does it mean that if the circuit has zero resistance it will not have the electric energy converted into magnetic energy and, as a result, will have no magnetic property? curiouskid, Fri, 21st Aug 2015
It is a cop-out to avoid the obvious fact that magnets do work as they act against gravity or forces that try to push them together or pull them apart. Newton's laws, Maxwell's 4 equations (edited by others from his 20 quaternion equations), and Lenz's law are not inviolate and represent distorted incomplete understanding of magnetic fields and EM. Tesla knew otherwise, as have and do many others that learn to think for themselves rather than accept dogma. Dendric, Fri, 23rd Oct 2015
I m not a smart guy but I do have imagination. I believe that we will soon be capable to travel on space time “Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” .by Albert Einstein
In magnetic iron, the outer most elections of the iron atoms, will align with the same spin. Same spin electrons repel each other. This will not allow the magnetic fields of the individual electrons to cancel, but rather it increases the magnetic potential of the electron grouping. This is the potential energy behind the magnet. This electron configuration within magnets is stable at level of the iron atom. However, it contains residual potential energy; magnetic, since this is not the lowest possible way to arrange these electrons in terms of energy.
Magic. Obviously. Villi, Fri, 1st Jul 2016
I was taught that magnets harness the ever present ever in motion ambient radiation. Magnets that are joined at opposite poles, do not attract one another, because our universe was designed without attraction forces. The magnets are pushed together by ambient radiation. Between the magnets a flow is setup from one magnet to another, and if you have ever put a short piece of hose up to a similar piece of hose that is flowing water, you can note a strange occurrence. As the short piece of hose moves closer to the hose spewing water, the small piece of hose is suddenly apparently pulled to the hose spewing water. In reality the water exiting the short piece of hose being moved closer to the hose spewing water, is pushed to the hose spewing water, by pressure at the exit point of the small hose.
The sub-atomic world is frictionless and can spin forever. This is the source of magnetic energy.
This related discussion is quite informative:
It's a strange thread this one. It's like asking "What is the power source for a shelf?"
JP'S answer seems very helpful to me.Electrons are magnetic dipoles,termed spin,if I am not mistaken.If we use a magnetizer to force all the electron dipoles to line up and make a big magnet as a group,they are like a stretched spring held at both ends.As long as it is held still,no more energy is needed to be addedTthe magnetizer added enough.The magnetic force is constant,No work is done.However if the electrons' alignments are allowed to go back to random,the stored energy of the magnetizer is released.Scientists are now intensely engaged in working with magnetic phenomenae and spin to create new effects.Electrical motors are actually using electromagnetic effects to produce motion,and the energy used is electrical energy,doing work.Friction and other losses keep a motor running on just still magnetic fields from staying in motion or doing work.It was the idea of perpetual motion. david.reichard, Wed, 21st Sep 2016
Is the repulsive force of the electromagnet as strong as the attractive one??? Mika Loiselle, Fri, 23rd Sep 2016
We humans tend to always consider mechanic energy as when refering with anything that is made of matter like a mechanic engine, but from a certain point of view, one has pushed two pieces of magnets one towards the other, but one magnet never has trully pushed one away from the other, they are only the catalistor for a field, magnetic field...
Using an ac electromagnet to hold something up when yo could use a shelf is inefficient.
"Although I have heard some people that know, have shinned a laser to the moon, and when they blocked the laser on earth it instantly shut off on the moon. "
70 years ago radio communication via moon bounce was all the rage, when Prof Lovell first got his large steerable dish in operation he demonstrated on TV its high gain by installing a taxi radio system on it , directing it onto the moon and received his hallo 2.5 seconds later.
Magnets gentlemans, magnets...