Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => Topic started by: Titanscape on 15/03/2006 18:55:40
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Donating Sperm, I think is quite questionable. A strange women has your baby and with her husband perhaps she raises it.
Perhaps your wife would want to be the only one to have your baby.
To some extent you are known, but it could be a really horrible woman that wants a baby. Like Miss Skaf, Sydney's famous gang rapist's sister.
Good or bad woman, would you donate sperm?
Titanscape
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Take out any moral issues and it is what the mail reproductive system was designed for. Our present moral stance has nothing to do with the evolutionary imperative
What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
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What about couples where the male is infertile Bren ? I realise they could adopt but what if they want the baby via pregnancy ?
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I can imagine that other men are not like me, and could not go without a child. And their wives may be so too. If I had a wife like that and I was asked by her for acceptance of artificial insemination in her, I would be troubled. I would not accept it. Adoption yes, but another man's semen in her and another man has the honour of making her pregnant, and has her maternal love through his child, no.
There is treatment to put a man's sex cell directly in an egg, that yes, but another man's no. I would be careful. My Dr friend was joking and told me about this in the US where a Dr used a dirty pipette and his patient's wife had a black baby.
I would want adoption. I wouldn't consider AI, no.
If she were to have another man's baby, from Judaism, it best be from a full brother. Even so, the husband in this scripture passed away.
Surely morals have a place in the evolutionary scheme don't they? Is there an evolutionary imperative? If so rape has a place in it, and it can touch home too. Donating sperm is not about evolution. The question is first about donating.
Titanscape
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I don’t want to sound harsh but even the concept of rape is a cultural moral one. It has nothing to do with the male reproductive system. this system produces more sperm then is ever needed in lifetime. It is cable of populating a country. Men can mate with any female virtually any time. It is simply inconceivable to think that early man was bound by any of our concepts of morality other then not wanting to be hit over the hear by a bigger male. Just as in the primates they were more likely to be opportunities. As far as evolution was concerned if we had been bound by such conventions we probably not be hear.
If you want a child and are capably of loving it then you can be a parent to it. Every child is a bundle of pure potentiality regardless of who it biological parents are. It will love unconditionally with out judgment. All you have to do it same thing and after all your the adult so you should know better.
What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
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from a purely evolutonist point of view, one should seek out the oppertunity to donate sperm. it gives you an opertunity to pass on your seed outside of the normal, socialy-recognized monogomous relationship. In otherwords, you don't violate any cultural taboos, but still propogate your genes (which by evolutionary terms is the whole point of life in the first place)
Are YOUR mice nude? [;)]
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I couldnt do it,i couldnt live with the knowlege that i had a kid out their that i didnt know.
Michael
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quote:
Originally posted by Titanscape
ONE:I can imagine that other men are not like me, and could not go without a child. And their wives may be so too. If I had a wife like that and I was asked by her for acceptance of artificial insemination in her, I would be troubled. I would not accept it. Adoption yes, TWO: but another man's semen in her and another man has the honour of making her pregnant, and has her maternal love through his child, no.
There is treatment to put a man's sex cell directly in an egg, that yes, but another man's no. I would be careful. My Dr friend was joking and told me about this in the US where a Dr used a dirty pipette and his patient's wife had a black baby.
I would want adoption. I wouldn't consider AI, no.
THREE:If she were to have another man's baby, from Judaism, it best be from a full brother. Even so, the husband in this scripture passed away.
FOUR:Surely morals have a place in the evolutionary scheme don't they? Is there an evolutionary imperative? If so rape has a place in it, and it can touch home too. Donating sperm is not about evolution. The question is first about donating.
Titanscape
ONE: Ok, here you are describing men who are sterile yes?
TWO:Bren this is not true. There is no paternal honour between the sperm donor and the consequential child. The sperm is a commodity, it is a thing. It is like a medicine except this is a medicine that is biological in nature and not manufactured in a lab. In this case you are empowering the sperm with too much connection to the donor. There is no relationship with the donor and the mother and child. I DO understand what you are saying though, but I would urge you to consider using a different approach, one of a medicinal treatment than one based on an emotional attachment.
THREE:Bren, I’m trying to decipher this paragraph. Now I have come to a few conclusions what you are trying to say, but to save me writing them all down here can you just elaborate what you are saying please.
FOUR:Morals are a human invention Bren. Evolution was going on billions of years before us humans came along. How can a natural process like evolution have an imperative ?...Yep, it progresses along a path of continual change but it’s a ntural chain of events, so I personally don’t think there is an imperative to evolution. There’s no designing to it apart from a natural one.
I can see your reasoning is one of a faith,or a very strong sense of moral conduct, and therefore I suspect you are constraint in your thoughts by the inflexibility of your beliefs. No offence of course, it’s just my opinion Bren.
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
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quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
I couldnt do it,i couldnt live with the knowlege that i had a kid out their that i didnt know.
Michael
Why?
What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
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Why?
My child my responsibility. Any child that was conceived using my sperm is half me, i would be the biological father and i couldn't go through life knowing i have children that i don't know and therefore can't care for for.
What happens if the person bringing up my child turned out to be a real monster, I can't see how anyone would not want to know and look after their own offspring and so I could never donate sperm.
Michael
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POSTED BY NEILEP Morals are a human invention
Humans didnt invent morals evolution invented morals along with the pre frontal cortex which allows us to learn and control them. This is one for george (another someone)[:)]
Michael
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I understand more then you know why you say the things you do and I am not judging you in any way. But you don’t have to see thing as you do.
Your say “What happens if the person bringing up my child turned out to be a real monster,” there are a few point you might like to give some thought to. To me it’s simple. You’re choosing to look into the future and imagine monsters which have not yet come into existences except in your mind. You could have just as easily imagined a saint. Either way it is about what you’re imaging might happen sometime in the future. What is to stop you from thinking that you could have a car crash and be brain damaged and as a result become a monster to your family. Is it not the same? We all get trapped into thinking like this about the future and the past. By doing so you allow pain and suffering to come into your mind that is of your own creation.
So what are you giving when you give sperm? To me it is the one of the keys to infantine possibility that all life is. Most people who go this route to have a child do so because they are desperate to care and love a child. To help such a person to achieve this is to help then bring meaning into there lives. I give blood I happen to be 0- should I stop in case a monster get it. I choose to trust the innate goodness that is life in the certain knowledge that I am exactly where I am suppose to be writing these words to you.
What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
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quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
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POSTED BY NEILEP Morals are a human invention
Humans didnt invent morals evolution invented morals along with the pre frontal cortex which allows us to learn and control them. This is one for george (another someone)[:)]
Michael
Whilst I have the greatest respect for you Michael.. I totally disagree. How can you attribute morals to a natural process ? Are you edging on intelligent design ?...Morals are all to do with humanities decisions to do the right thing, to be able to distinguish between good and bad. ....are you saying that morals were around before humans ?
I respect your decision and gather it's based on some faith bound conviction but I stand by my opinion, after all, that's all it is eh ?[;)]
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
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How can you attribute morals to a natural process?
HIYA NEIL
Through evolution we are born with hardware(our brains) and parts of our brains have evolved to be used for moral decisions, damage that specific part of the brain and we lose our moral judgement. At around 2 to 3 years of age the morals hardware boots up and begins to take in data allowing us to make future decisions based on what we are taught and view.
CONCLUSION
The hardware which allows us to have morals (The important part)is natural and is put there by evolution for the purpose of morals and related psychological processes .
The parameters for the use of the hardware are partly genetic and partly learnt "human invention" as you put it. So its a mixture of both evolution and "human invention" so basically we're both right.
or maybe like you i'm tired and am unable to think straight [:)]
Michael
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Originally posted by Hadrian
I understand more then you know why you say the things you do and I am not judging you in any way. But you don’t have to see thing as you do.
I never thought you were judging me.[:)]
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Your say “What happens if the person bringing up my child turned out to be a real monster,” there are a few point you might like to give some thought to. To me it’s simple. You’re choosing to look into the future and imagine monsters which have not yet come into existences except in your mind. You could have just as easily imagined a saint. Either way it is about what you’re imaging might happen sometime in the future.
What is to stop you from thinking that you could have a car crash and be brain damaged and as a result become a monster to your family? Is it not the same? We all get trapped into thinking like this about the future and the past. By doing so you allow pain and suffering to come into your mind that is of your own creation.
As parents of children its our job to make the decisions which will benefit our kids. Through evolution we have been given the ability to look into the future and to make decisions based on what we see around us, its partly what makes us human .Forward thinking is what makes us intelligent sapient beings and is what separates us from every other life forms on earth .
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So what are you giving when you give sperm? To me it is the one of the keys to infantine possibility that all life is. Most people who go this route to have a child do so because they are desperate to care and love a child. To help such a person to achieve this is to help then bring meaning into there lives. I give blood I happen to be 0- should I stop in case a monster get it. I choose to trust the innate goodness that is life in the certain knowledge that I am exactly where I am suppose to be writing these words to you.
How can I put it its hard to put into words. Some men are happy to father a child and never see that child again. I couldn’t do that as that child is half me and I have a natural wanting desire to help with the upbringing of any child of mine.
Being a farther is ????? words can’t describe it and I could not allow myself to have a child in this world and not be a farther to it, so then to totally hand over my responsibility to someone else who i dont know and therefore couldn’t trust is a complete no no . They may not be a monster ,they could be rich, they could be the perfect parents but I wouldn’t ever know for sure without contact and rights,and without them I couldn’t allow it. I’m not saying sperm donation is wrong I’m just saying it’s not for me. [:)]
Michael
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Michael, what do you mean that the hardware and software has been designed ?
Who designed it ?...
…..and when you say the HW & SW have been put there via evolution for the purpose of morals…..
Who put it there ?....and it was put there intentionally ?
…In my opinion , I see that we have evolved the ability to make decisions. We have survived thus far because it is the natural inclination to do whats generally best for our survival. It is far more productive to do good than it is to do bad, and so through natural instinct and experience, we have developed the ability to choose, and to choose wisely. That is a generalisation. There are of course people who make awful decisions , but fortunately the majority of us learn to do well. I would say it’s a learned process that is forever ongoing but not because something has been purposefully placed there to enable us for us to make our decisions, but because it’s just the way we are, it’s a normal biological process.
‘ Morals’ after all is just a term indicating a kind of behaviour. It is humans whom have decided to use such nomenclature to categorise a set of emotional rules and guidelines based on what is generally accepted as good or bad or any variation of such in all it’s varieties.
Perhaps I have misunderstood. I am sensing that with you, our makeup as humans has some form of blueprint, like it’s been thought up and created.
When I said, Morals is a human invention I also attribute that to ethics, values, emotions of every single possible condition…all of this is based on our fantastic ability for self awareness…it’s amazing !
It’s certainly not in my opinion a gift, it’s just part of what we are , because of what we are.
Oh, I dunno !...I need some zzzzzz's[:)]
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
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neil yeah wrong word, i edited it. my excuse i'm tired
Michael
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Mate,
Forget it....
You're right, I'm right..we're both right..
...you're right...George will post the reason why we're both wrong !![;)]
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
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“As parents of children its our job to make the decisions which will benefit our kids. Through evolution we have been given the ability to look into the future and to make decisions based on what we see around us, its partly what makes us human .Forward thinking is what makes us intelligent sapient beings and is what separates us from every other life forms on earth .”
Hi Michael I do a lot of work coaching people on many issues around there life work and relationships. In all the years I have been doing this I never found anyone who could look into the future. Anticipation of what might or might not happen is conjecture. It mat be informed by past experiences but this can not predict with total certainty anything. Even the most plan events go wrong. Just look at the space shuttle. One tiny variation in any experiment can render it invalid. Predicting the future at best it is an illusion of the mind at worst it’s can turn you life into hell. As parents of children its our job to be the best we can right NOW in the moment were in. As to making decisions for them that too is an illusion. Now I know right now that may seem impossible to take on board but try. It may be unfair but from the time we are born we are making choices for ourselves all the time. There our choices and the lead us to where we are right NOW. Here is a story from my life that I hope will explain what I am talking about.
When I was a little boy, around 5 or 6 years old. My home was an old two-story house. At the time we had work being done on its roof. Outside my back door was a ladder up against the house and just decided to climb it. Up I went to the very top. There was a man working away on the roof. He just looked at me and calmly talked to me. “That’s a good lad. It’s time to go back down now, good by”. So I was just about to do so when my mother came out the door and saw me up the ladder. She ran to it and grabbed it and shouted in fear “Come down right now before you hurt yourself!” Of course she shook the ladder and I raped my little arms around it as tight as I could. It took the two of them and another workman some time to get me down safely. I was terrified. At the moment I had the choice as to what to be terrified of.
1. Heights
2. MY mother’s reaction to me being up a ladder.
Since I loved my mother I choose the former. As an adult I would have chosen different. A few weeks latter I climbed my favourite tree during one of my imaginary games. I was so caught up in it I forgot I was frightened of heights it was still only a baby belief still. Then like being hit by a train I remembered it. I grabbed on with a panic and screamed for my mother. She never liked me climbing and saw this as an opportunity to teach me the errors of my way. She left me stew a little in my fear before talking me down. I never climbed that tree or any other again for a long time. Her fear that I would hurt myself falling affected her reactions to my behaviour.
So I had the source of my Belief System well set. I was then asked if I always believed every single thing my mother ever told me. I had to say “No” So why did I believe her on this occasion? At the time I did not know I had a choice I just did because I trusted her. I was then asked how I felt before my mother came grabbed the ladder. Again I thought about it and answered “happy and trilled by my achievement of climbing it”. Ok then I was told go back to the top of the ladder and to feel happy and trilled. If I was happy and trilled, how would you look being happy and trilled? How would you be breathing? I really got into it. I let my imagination go to work. Next I was told “Now this time go down the ladder but stay happy and trilled”. I was run through this exercise of going up and down the ladder a few times. Each time I was told to feel even happier and trilled by my achievement and I did. It was an amazing experience. After the weekend I tested my new Belief System that I wasn’t frighten of heights by going up a ladder on the side of my house. First I did the visualising then I did it for real. Up I went and hay presto I was happy and trilled. Now my nerves were ones of excitement. Years later as a photographer I was severely tested when I had to climb a ladder attached to a wall inside a power station that was several stories height. Sure I was scared but no more then any rational person would be and it did not stop me from going to the top. I took photos standing on the edge of the roof of the power station 14 stories up. I was very happy and trilled that I was free of that particular self limiting Belief System. I hope this story helps you to see that as Hyrum W. Smith wrote in this wonderful book What Matters Most (2000) “What we do depends on how we feel about what we know” If I had to add anything to this insight it you be to say “What we do depends on how we feel about what we think we know”.
My point is the decisions we make a parents are just events to our children it up to them how the choose to react to them and gives them the outcome the get. I always their choice always.
As a coach I have to help my clients to see this for themselves so the can take ownership of these choices the have made and move on. Being the best you can be as a parent is mostly about loving and trusting your child enough to let them be the beast they can be right now right in that moment. This is not the same as having no rules or boundaries. E+R=O Life events plus reaction equals the outcome. All of us need to learn that is our reaction and only our reaction is what we control.
What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
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I believe that men are currently essentially worthless to women. The converse is not true. The balance of power is disrupted. Most men cannot live without a woman. Certainly, they could not without restaurants. :)
Historically, and under primitive conditions, men have been of value to women for only four reasons:
1. To provide protection (women being smaller and weaker, they are not very good at protecting themselves).
2. To provide shelter (women being less rational and physical, they are not very good at construction).
3. To provide food (women are generally not good hunters, and though they may be good growers, they are generally not strong enough to break ground).
4. To provide children (woman's drive to procreate has its fruition in children).
Since society (basically the result of the efforts of men, but probably mostly at the prodding of women) has made all the above available to women without the individual necessity of a man, men are now essentially worthless to women (that doesn't mean they don't want one, but more as a toy than anything). This status will continue until society collapses. Only then will the relative worth of men rise.
Sperm being the only bargaining chip that a man can withhold, I will. That others may choose to donate does not affect my decision not too. Personally, I don't think any woman should be able to get pregnant without getting... ;)
Looking forward to the responses. :lol:
Gary Lankford
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What about Invention Gary ?...Girlies nowadays wouldn't be able to get by driving their 4 X 4s whilst speaking on their mobile phones and driving on the kerb and parking in front of driveways if a man had not invented it all..!!...girlies have men to thank for that !..and who's going to come and change their spare wheel and fill up their cars with petrol ?
Having said all that...I actually agree with you.
I am sure I saw somewhere that men are no longer required to sustain the species and therefore I offer my services to all the girlies who just want a male for a plaything !
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W H A T ? ? ?
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quote:
Originally posted by gary_lankford
Personally, I don't think any woman should be able to get pregnant without getting... ;)
Looking forward to the responses. :lol:
Gary Lankford
who said she needed a man to get......[;)]
Carolyn
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What about Invention Gary ?
It is invention and success that has brought us to this juncture, while only destruction and upheaval can reestablish balance.
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who said she needed a man to get......;)
I didn't say "she" needed a man to get... I said "she" shouldn't be able to get pregnant without getting...
"She" can get... any way she wants to for all I care. :) and increasingly she is, as you suggest. This just more proof that "she" no longer needs a man for any of the things that he is naturally able to provide and more reason why we men shouldn't be giving up our only bargaining chip so freely.
I suspect, however, that the weak willed gender will not change its ways, being naturally driven to play its own part in procreation. ;) ...and despite all the deleterious effects of that behavior.
Gary Lankford
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Remember Carolyn..YOU are a girly...you must make exceptions for your already disadvantaged gender when it comes to discussing things sensibly. [:D]
Now go put the kettle on and bake a cake or something. There's a good girly !!...and don't forget to know your place !![:D]
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Originally posted by gary_lankford
[quote:
who said she needed a man to get......;)
I didn't say "she" needed a man to get... I said "she" shouldn't be able to get pregnant without getting...
Well, I stand corrected.
Neil - you are absolutely correct, I am a girly and I should remember my place. It's up on a pedestal, right where my hubby put me. I think I'll go there now and let him entertain me.[:X]
Carolyn
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Sometimes i feel so sorry for you ladies having to put up with us men, the world would be a much better place if we could just get rid of them all so it just left me. [:)]
Michael
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ukmicky-Posted - 19 Mar 2006 : 00:09:37 Show Profile Email Poster Visit ukmicky's Homepage Reply with Quote
Sometimes i feel so sorry for you ladies having to put up with us men, the world would be a much better place if we could just get rid of them all so it just left me.
Michael
Yes, that might solve the problem, as a man would again be in great demand. Ever see the movie "A Boy and His Dog"? :)
Moving back toward the question of the original post, I wonder if there have been any successful paternity suits against sperm donors? If a man knew that he might be liable for support if he became a father by sperm donation that might slow him down. No, no, wait, that doesn't seem to stop anybody, does it?
Gary Lankford
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quote:
Originally posted by gary_lankford
Moving back toward the question of the original post, I wonder if there have been any successful paternity suits against sperm donors? If a man knew that he might be liable for support if he became a father by sperm donation that might slow him down. No, no, wait, that doesn't seem to stop anybody, does it?
Until recently, donor anonymity made this very unlikely in the UK, but with the change in law that allows a child born through sperm donation the right to trace his biological father, the possibility does now theoretically exist for someone to test the law with regard to paternal responsibility of sperm donors – although I doubt that the law would support such a suite in the foreseeable future.
More plausible would be is a young man donated sperm, and later in life, the donor having become someone famous, his biological child might seek to gain publicity out of his association with his now famous father. Could we see the tabloid press going to town over some sob story about a minister refusing to help his natural child?
An area where I think the risks pertaining child support claims is greater is the few cases we have had where women have had IVF, and the embryo frozen while they undergo cancer treatment, with the intent that the embryo then be re-implanted after the treatment is complete. In the meanwhile the relationship with the spouse breaks down, and the man no longer wishes to allow his wife to become impregnated with the embryo, and thus encumbering him with liability for the child's maintenance.
George
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Originally posted by ukmicky
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Why?
My child my responsibility. Any child that was conceived using my sperm is half me, i would be the biological father and i couldn't go through life knowing i have children that i don't know and therefore can't care for for.
Your son is no more or less you than your brother.
George
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Originally posted by neilep
Originally posted by ukmicky
Whilst I have the greatest respect for you Michael.. I totally disagree. How can you attribute morals to a natural process ? Are you edging on intelligent design ?...Morals are all to do with humanities decisions to do the right thing, to be able to distinguish between good and bad. ....are you saying that morals were around before humans ?
I think this debate about what is natural or not is somewhat futile – it implies there is anything that humans do that is unnatural.
Humans are no more of less a part of nature, and a consequence of nature, as a snail. Anything that humans do is just as natural as anything snails do. This is true even where snails and humans behave differently, each still follows their own nature, and each is still behaving naturally.
All animals follow some sort of code of conduct. For some simple animals, this is a very simple set of instinctive rules, but for more complicated animals, the rules are increasingly learned rules (although with an underlying instinctive layer that is required to bootstrap the process even for the most complex of animals). We, as probably the most complex of the complex animals, gain far more of our behavioural rules from learning than from instinct, but that we have learnt it does not make it unnatural, but equally, that we have learnt it does mean there is inevitably greater variability in those rules than there would be if the rules were wholly instinctive.
George
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quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
As parents of children its our job to make the decisions which will benefit our kids. Through evolution we have been given the ability to look into the future and to make decisions based on what we see around us, its partly what makes us human .Forward thinking is what makes us intelligent sapient beings and is what separates us from every other life forms on earth .
Is it?
Some might argue it is a parents job to ensure their child grows up to be beneficial to the community, which may not always be the same as maximising the self interest of the child (although I accept that there is much overlap).
Clearly, different parents will have different views on this, as will non-parents; I am just suggesting that there can be multiple interpretations as to what is the job of a parent.
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How can I put it its hard to put into words. Some men are happy to father a child and never see that child again. I couldn’t do that as that child is half me and I have a natural wanting desire to help with the upbringing of any child of mine.
There is the question whether the child is that which is that of your genes, or that which you have chosen to have a mutual parent/child relationship with. The reverse side of the genetic argument in this is to ask what the relationship with adopted or step children should be? To the recipient of donated sperm, the mother is the true mother, but the father in effect is a step father.
Clearly, one could argue that children should always only live with their natural parents (I believe you said you were from a catholic background, so I suspect you are very anti divorce, so in that respect the only context where you would allow for a legitimate existence of a stepfather is where the woman has been widowed, but nonetheless that situation does exist).
The first question is whether a husband who is himself infertile should be allowed to become a father through donated sperm? The second question is whether the legal parents of that child should be allowed to bring up the child as if it was their own, without interference from the sperm donor?
I am not saying that you can but feel as you feel, and no amount of rational argument is going to change that, but merely asking how your arguments would address the above issues.
Ofcourse, it is perfectly legitimate for you to say, as we all sometimes do, that this is something that you understand (from a rational perspective) it is right to do, but don't feel that you could bring yourself to partake in the doing of it.
George
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I may be old fashioned and see sex and reproduction as a matter of honour. As Christian here I see evolution as a hypothesis I do just for fellows like many of you in thenakedscientist.com.
Practically, donating sperm is a risk at worst of having a child into a paedophile's family.
I am possessive and would want to take a wife who is as well. I wouldn't want her to donate eggs...
I am not compelled personally to want to satisfy the longing of a woman with a barren husband. It's not me, not that I am an athlete or anything, just hypothetically.
But, if I was in WW2 Hungary and a dear patriot girl was raped by an invading Russian or four... I dream that I would give her my sex cells into the filth, which I do not want, for the sake of her possibley having my child instead of a Russian rapist for patriotic honour and sympathy.
Titanscape
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Originally posted by Titanscape
But, if I was in WW2 Hungary and a dear patriot girl was raped by an invading Russian or four... I dream that I would give her my sex cells into the filth, which I do not want, for the sake of her possibley having my child instead of a Russian rapist for patriotic honour and sympathy.
My mother did live through that period, although thankfully did not suffer that fate, but I understand she did have to make a rapid exit on one occasion for the risk to be averted (I understand the women in East Germany suffered immeasurably worse than the Hungarians).
My mother would have been 13 or 14 years old at the time.
Nonetheless, be that as it may, in the particular situation to describe, I rather suspect the woman would not in any way thank you for being the fifth rapist, whether patriot or not (no doubt many of the Russian soldiers could also have justified their actions with notions of patriotism).
George
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My mistake in my post. I should wite, that I ask her if it is what she wants from me, and not otherwise.
Titanscape
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Check this on the artificial insemination and sperm donation discussion.
http://news.sbs.com.au/insight/mmarchive.php#
"Making Babies" May 30th 2006. Video or transcript.
Titanscape