Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Geology, Palaeontology & Archaeology => Topic started by: Tann San on 06/05/2004 23:26:14
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Hi all. I was just watching this show about the lines of Nazca. An american scientist was talking about how he believes the lines in the desert are a giant map of the underground water system, written by the ancient inhabitants of the land. That was his explanation of the large lines. He said that he thought the giant glyphs like the astronaught and the humming bird where used to designate each water way i.e. lets go and drink at the big humming bird. He also said tha the was having trouble proving the link here.
I had an idea on this and wondered what anyone else thought about it. What if one lot of people made the big lines to mark where the underground water sources ran and then later on, possibly much later on another group of people or even the decendants of the original architects drew the large glyphs.
A german scientist on the show said that he believed that the people who made the lines scattered sea shells brought forth by el nino on the lines to catch the attention of the gods. As the weather would return to it's normal harsh state i.e. no rain etc the people began to use larger, more complex diagrams to try and get the gods attention.
I thought this bit might link to my first idea. Lets say that after a few hundred years the original idea of drawing the lines to mark water ways was forgotten. People may not of known what they where. Some people may even have made claims to know what they were and where in fact making it up. This could have been the priests for the later people. They could of said anything such as these marking were made by our ancestors to worship the gods, if we do the same then we can surely save our selves... I'm really just guessing wildly now but surely other people can see that this wouldnt be the first time religeous types do this sort of thing, no insult meant to any of those *real* religions :¬)
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I've heard of these lines, but I don't really know anything about them. However, I find it a real stretch that anyone went to the trouble to mark a water system like that. I would believe the religious connection first - people expend huge amounts of energy trying to please their gods.
Did they have an underground water system that large and with the straight lines and patterns? If so, that was some engineering feat!
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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Presumably it would not be too difficult to discover that the lines did match up to an ancient underground water system......with the apparatus that archeologist surveyors use to 'see' what's underneath etc etc.
Are these also the lines which have been found with giant rocks (as if the rocks have moved themselves ?)...or is that in some desert somewhere ?...
I can't see what use a giant map on the ground would serve....why not just draw a small map and sell it at the Tourist Board Information Center.
The Religious connection as per the german scientist I can understand though.
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !' (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finstagiber.net%2Fsmiliesdotcom%2Fcwm%2F3dlil%2Fsleep.gif&hash=fe99e79560e224eed0697eef2c4c7c1c)
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Their are complex aquaduct systems that run under alot of the ground. They are used to tap into the natural underground water systems. The Amercian scientist used dowsing (is that how you spell it) to find water systems. He did this first and then later on realised the connection to the lines. He said that he had been following one such water system with his rods. He walked up a hill and out in front of him where some of the large lines.
Some school kid smade a line to show how it could of been done. It's simply a matter of moving the top surface rocks to show the clear white sand underneath. The rocks tend to be very dark so the contrast is quite clear. People have said that they may have used some early form of hot air balloon to view the markings from above..
I didnt see any high tech science equipment being used to track the water systems but I would definately like to see if anyone has used more uptodate methods (over dowsing rods)
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Dowsing eh ?....I've alwyas been skeptical about dowsing !!!..can someone please explain to me how dowsing works so that I can show my skepticism the door !!!!
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When two rock plates (maybe not the right word...where's Exodus when we need him?) meet they each have a unique magnetic field, and the meeting of these fields creates an anomaly in electromagnetic fields. The fracture between these rocks is frequently where water is found. Other water sources also exhibit changes in the intensity of Earth's magnetic field (EMF). Our bodies are electro-magnetic. Sensitive individuals have learned to "tap in". Learning to tap in involves the pineal gland, which switches on at night. Or so the theory goes.
Neil, that makes me wonder if taking melatonin before bedtime would help you sleep. Have you tried it? Can you get melatonin in the UK? I can give you the website in the US that I order from, or I can mail you a few tablets to try if you like.
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Thanks Donnah......Gosh , I didn't realise that the rocks would radaiate such a strong field...or that the dowsing rods were that sensitive/or that we are ...but thanks
Regarding the Melatonin....Yep...tried it as part of a prescribed treatment for 6 weeks....(it's not available over the counter here yet)...didn't work I'm afraid.......... Ho Hum !!......
The Sleep Consultant thought I might have Phased Delay Syndrome !!..ie: My body clock is out of synch, and the Melatonin (as I'm sure you know)..helps to regulate the body clock....*sigh never mind*...
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quote:
Originally posted by neilep
Dowsing eh ?....I've alwyas been skeptical about dowsing !!!..can someone please explain to me how dowsing works so that I can show my skepticism the door !!!!
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !' (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finstagiber.net%2Fsmiliesdotcom%2Fcwm%2F3dlil%2Fsleep.gif&hash=fe99e79560e224eed0697eef2c4c7c1c)
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quote:
Originally posted by neilep
Dowsing eh ?....I've alwyas been skeptical about dowsing !!!..can someone please explain to me how dowsing works so that I can show my skepticism the door !!!!
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !' (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finstagiber.net%2Fsmiliesdotcom%2Fcwm%2F3dlil%2Fsleep.gif&hash=fe99e79560e224eed0697eef2c4c7c1c)
Have you ever tried to dowse?
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Somewhere in my dim memory I recall an article correlating an individual's dowsing abilities with their sensitivity to musical pitch- those individuals with perfect pitch make good dowsers. As a geologist, I am a "dowser skeptic", yet I have seen it work better than geophysical methods for finding water.
Prediction is difficult, especially the future. -Niels Bohr
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There are some large glyphs in the desert pavement within a few hours of where I live (Las Vegas), but they are visible from the ground. What I mean is, an observer on the ground can tell what the glyphs are. The Nazca glyphs can only be recongnized from the sky. I've always been intrigued about them, but they remain a mystery, and are often grouped in with crop circles and the like on tv.
As for the color variation, desert rocks, over periods of thousands of years, develope what's called a "desert varnish." Scientists are still trying to discover what causes this varnish, if it's a purely geologic alteration or if it may have something to do with microscopic organisms. If the upper layer of "varnished" rocks were swept away, the lighter colored rocks/gravel beneath would show. Since varnish takes so long to accumulate, the lighter colored rocks would remain that way for thousands of years.
I like to lick rocks....
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I'm fascinated by how these ancient marks were created so accurately. There are many hillside marks here in the UK, such as the Cern Abbas giant and the White Horse. Yet when you walk around the image itself at ground level it is very difficult to grasp its shape. The people who made them must have understood how to scale up a design in order to make them accurate.
Chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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I am a fairly good dowser, and use two metal coat hangers cut and bent in the shape of an L. First let me say I don't believe it it, I only use it because it works, but then I'm an engineer...
I use it in my hobby of genealogy to locate old graves, and I can come within an inch or two of marking out the size of the grave. My friends and I use a push rod as a second opnion to try to locate buried headstones to confirm the finds.
My theory on why it works is as follows:
1) the dowsing rods react to disturbed ground. When the soil is laid down at 1/100 inch per year average, any manetic particals line up with the then magnetic flux of the earth. You dig a hole and fill it back in, that smooth magnetic flux is broken. I see this in locating the water, sewage and gas lines going into my house. I can also see a weak background signal when tring to search plowed ground.
2) I have a stronger signal than my friends do, probably due to different body chemistry. You want to get real sensitive, take off you shoes and socks.
3) My local gas company trucks carry dowsing rods, and they use them to double check where they think the lines are before digging.
I have done different experiments for repeatability (eyes closed, walk backward to a known ditch, etc.) There is some phenomna there that isn't just human suggestion.
For those who would like to try for themselves, take two metal coat hangers. Cut the hook out of them and remove one of the top sides of the hanger. Bend the remaining wire into an L shape. Repeat with second hanger. Hold each L loosely in your left and right hands long piece a half inch (centimeter) above the fingers, and the short end in the palm of your hand but passing in front of your smallest finger. Hold the rods level but loose enough to rotate. place your hands 6 to 12 inches apart and walk slowly across where you suspect a utility line or pipe to be buried. When the two rods start to turn inwards, you have a positive signal. How strong the signal you get depends on you. For me the rods will turn a full 90 degrees. My friends are lucky to get 30 degrees, but then you don't want my medical problems hehe...
I do not have any knowedge or ideas of how dowsers located flowing underground water, or more properly, what the scientific cause would be to have flowing water cause a detectable signal.
David
David
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About 15 years ago, a Canadian archaeologist studied the lines and used carbon-dating to measure the age of lichen on the rocks that make up the lines. She figured this was a good way of determining the age of the figures, and by knowing their age, could correlate natural events of the time and hypothesize about reasons for locals to spend so much time making these desert figures.
Her name is Persis Clarkson (unless she got married and changed her name), formerly at the university of Calgary, but more recently at the university of Manitoba.
I haven't spoken with her in 15 years, but she may be reachable by e-mail at the U of Manitoba's dept of archaeology.
Otherwise, I think the lines were primarily a "make work" project to keep the idle population busy by communicating with their gods in hopes of avoiding another elNino food disaster.
By the way ... the term "disaster" means "bad stars", an astrological term for unfortunate circumstances.
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as the new boy i should really "shut up and learn" but i cant,about dowsing.
i used to work on a gang that laid water mains in the west of england,i used to dowse for cables and pipes, and each one gives of differing amounts of "pull" there is a definate downward tug on copper brazing rod,how the heck it works i dont know,i can do it my brother cannot (unless i hold his arms)im just lucky to have this gift.
as for the nazcar lines the closest ive been to them is the canary islands,they are one of those great mysteries that may puzzle us for ever,like my local stonehenge.
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How about this:
They are just irrigation ditches used for crop production for which happen to have the shape that, under a mescalin-induced or otherwise fanciful high, would suggest to the viewer that they look like something significant. I've seen the man in the moon too.
Or maybe they are canals for transportation.
How static is the groundwater each 100 or 1000 years?
Maybe they are roads?
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It is also said that the nazca lines are the landing base for aliens
- Big T
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Anybody ever think they were just some bored artists. I mean there probably wasn't much to do if the food cache was good and there was no fighting. What else could you do. Or maybe something to keep the warriors occupied and fit when not fighting. The reasonable hypotheses are numerous. How about a term project for engineering students who would be the next builders of temples and such.
That groundwater idea is pretty sketchy. I mean seriously what kind of a brainstorm is that. Of course with a complicating drawing you could find lines that point to a water source if thats what your looking for. And why does everyone always have to bring aliens into the mix.
OH OH I KNOW, it sells commercial slots.
Enjoy diversity.
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quote:
Originally posted by tony6789
It is also said that the nazca lines are the landing base for aliens
What lines? Where? I can't see any! Your imagining things!
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tboeckel.de%2FEFSF%2Fefsf_ps%2Fnazca%2Fgesamt.jpg&hash=b82d4b7a83c7e77aded1ca1e4850366b)
More maps here (http://www.tboeckel.de/EFSF/efsf_ps/nazca/gesamt.htm)
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Why this lines should be more than a calendar or an offering to their gods being that the main reason they can only be seen from above, archaeologists studys and peru travel can-t be lying to us...
The real truth here is that people like us achieve something so big, can you imagine the discipline they had?
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Diana O'Carroll had a nice item on the Nasca and why they disappeared in the first edition of the Naked Archaeology podcast:
http://nakeddiscovery.com/scripts/mp3s/audio/Naked_Archaeology_08.10.17.mp3
Chris
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I have seen a National Geographic program on this subject. There was a correlation, although not significant enough for the "Science" people to say that the lines are defiantly there because of the water flow. The main problem is the age relationship between the lines and the aqueducts. The lines seem to have been begun well before the aqueducts were made and completed well after they were finished, making the correlation a very "iffy" thing.