Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: blaze on 25/10/2008 00:49:05
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I've been watching the Space Weather forecast ever since developing 'electrosensitivities' to wireless technology.
Here is the Space Weather Forecast and Archive, if you want to pay attention yourself, and perhaps backtrack a bit to memorable dates in your own life.
Space Weather Forecast:
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/SWN/index.html
Space Weather Archive:
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/alerts/archive.html#2006
We all know that the tides respond to such forces, but my theory is that these events - all of these events, without exception - (and I will admit I have limited understanding of each of them) - be they x-ray events, radiowave events, proton or electron fluxes, geomagnetic storms, or whatever - are really messages from God (or whatever you wish to call our higher power) for life processes to continue here on earth and for some ultimate purpose to be carried out.
For example, maybe some of these 'instruct' plants to bud in the spring and drop their leaves in the fall, while others 'instruct' skin cells to shed and hairs follicles to go dormant.
I'm especially interested in x-ray and radio events, since they happen less frequently. Could these x-ray events be an examination of our hearts and souls? Could these radio events be instructions to each and every one of us to fulfill some purpose?
Some pretty odd coincidences happened to me during the following period of time...
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/alerts/archive/archive_01Nov2004.html
Notice how active everything was?
Also, my cat died of a heart attack during a 'sudden impulse'.
Just curious what you think?
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No. Biological processes are "standalone". They do not need "messages from God". The mechanisms by which these processes occur are well understood scientifically. There is no need to invent "higher powers" and other irrelevant phenomena.
There is no evidence that god or the soul exist. Neither is an explanation for anything - what are their characteristics, their origins, the mechanisms by which they exist and cause events? They are vacuous postulates.
Other than our biological urges - sleep, mate, eat etc, our only purposes are those which are given to us by ourselves and society. Why do you feel that this is not sufficient?
As RD has told you, Electromagnetic hypersensitivity has not been found to be real by scientific investigation. The condition is probably psychological; the cause is not EM radiation.
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I have to disagree with you.
This computer I'm typing on? - it has a creator.
The roof over my head right now and the house I'm living in? - it has a designer and a creator.
The human body and the brain? - it is so highly specialized that there is no way it does not have a designer and a creator.
You can argue the function and purpose of these solar and magnetic storms, but science or no science - there's a 'God' - or intelligent designer who cares.
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As RD has told you, Electromagnetic hypersensitivity has not been found to be real by scientific investigation. The condition is probably psychological; the cause is not EM radiation.
We'll see in a couple of years. I know I have "psychological" problems, but can I quote you on that?
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The argument from design is so pathetic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument#Formal_objections_and_counterarguments
You creationists are so boring. Where are the new arguments? Your old ones have failed.
Science deals in observations, measurements, descriptions... If something can't be treated in this way, does it exist? How can the existence f something be confirmed without any such records of it? Since this is where god fails, how can "he" be real? Believing something is real does not make it so.
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I'll tell you what - when I die, Stefan, I'm going to donate my body to you (not my soul - just my body - but you shouldn't be worried about that because humans don't have souls, right?)
Then I want you to put all my bones, organs, hair, etc... into a big bucket and to shake them up as many times as you want, maybe even throw in some chemicals or electricity - whatever it takes. In fact, shake them up for a million years, if you want, and I doubt very much you will ever come up with a Blaze, but good luck trying.
In fact, after you have my body parts in a bucket, I also want you to take your computer apart and break it down to its essential components and put them beside me in a separate bucket, shake them up for a million years, and see if you can even create a computer randomly!
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That argument is dead too.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0
Please come up with a new one or quit trying.
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We've discussed intelligent design on this forum before - please limit ID conversations to those threads. This thread is about patterns in space weather.
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Well it seems to be about god using patterns in space weather to control life on earth...
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A few months ago my neighbor placed some willow cuttings in a jar of water after I'd told her willow cuttings were especially easy to root, though I'd never tried it myself. Hers rooted rather quickly, so I decided to give it a try myself, only mine took forever to root.
I kept checking them every day, even suggested that hers had rooted so quickly because of a magnetic storm we were having at the time she had started, so when I wasn't noticing any root growth, I predicted that I'd see some growth when we had another storm, not really believing it at the time - and sure enough, that's what it took.
Now I realize this is not enought to prove 'messages' were sent to these cuttings to root, but it would be interesting to investigate this.
By the way, I only have dial-up so I cannot view any utubes.
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Blaze, perhaps this will be more useful to you than youtube:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Boeing_747_gambit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Response_of_the_scientific_community
There are so many variables in your willow experiment that to attribute the differences between the 2 attempts to EM activity is absurd.
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Well it seems to be about god using patterns in space weather to control life on earth...
I think that was the original intention, but patterns in space weather would be more interesting and scientifically relevant. There are cycles in solar activity, so I wonder how all the cycles add up?
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Well it seems to be about god using patterns in space weather to control life on earth...
I think that was the original intention, but patterns in space weather would be more interesting and scientifically relevant.
There are cycles in solar activity, so I wonder how all the cycles add up?
There is a controversial hypothesis that increased solar wind during sunspot maxima causes more ionised particles to reach earth which create more condensation nuclei for cloud formation, thus linking the weather on earth with the sunspot cycles...
Changes of 3–4% in cloudiness and concurrent changes in cloud top temperatures have been correlated to the 11 and 22 year solar (sunspot) cycles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_variation
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Stefan, you're still arguing God with me.
Whether or not you believe there is a God or Higher Power, to say that these geomagnetic and solar storms are (definitely) not involved in the roots these cuttings grew, and to call the idea absurd, knowing that the tides are influenced by the moon's cycles, well that's just not very scientific.
Just because we as humans are unable to predict magnetic and solar storms with the same pinpoint accuracy that we are able to with the moon's cycles, that does not mean they have no influence. I think my theory is worthy of investigation.
For all I know, maybe it was not involved in the growth of roots, but it was responsible for regeneration of my liver tissue that day.
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No, I did not say that the hypothesis was absurd (I'm actually quite interested in the EM hypothesis), I said that to single out that hypothesis from a vast number of other possibilities and conclude that the hypothesis is correct on the basis of such an uncontrolled experiments, is absurd. Very much the way you have concluded that EM activity caused the regeneration of your liver... how do you know EM is responsible instead of other factors, for example the fact that liver has the ability to regenerate on its own? You are committing these logical fallacies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_single_cause
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Stefan, you'll see throughout my posts that I say 'maybe' a lot. Where did I ever claim that my what-ifs and theories were proven fact?
And although correlation doesn't prove causation, correlation often provides a starting point for research into causation.
And yes, you're right - the liver is one organ that has demonstrated the ablity to regenerate itself. I just picked the liver off the top of my head though - I could just as easily have picked skin tissue or heart muscle or even hair follicles.
But where do you think this ability arises from? Chemical reactions alone? 'Messages' are sent to key cells in the body that it is time to regenerate, and every one of these messages is electrically sent (and received) - and that's why I point to these solar and geomagnetic storms as the possible originator of these electrical messages.
Read this interview with Dr. Robert O. Becker. He was even nominated for some Nobel prizes due to his work. He proved that weak electrical current could stimulate regeneration in bone and other tissue following injury...
http://www.energyfields.org/science/becker.html
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'Messages' are sent to key cells in the body that it is time to regenerate, and every one of these messages is electrically sent (and received)
I have always understood that such messages are largely chemical (hormones etc.). How would these electrical messages be coded so that the appropriate cells regenerate and not others. Doesn't the DNA (chemical process) play a part in this? Do you have some new evidence?
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I'm not sure if this would answer your question...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2061045
Effects of low-energy electromagnetic fields (pulsed and DC) on membrane signal transduction processes in biological systems.Luben RA.
The vertebrate organism possesses a number of internal processes for signaling and communication between cell types. Hormones and neurotransmitters move from one cell type to another and carry chemical "messages" that modulate the metabolic responses of tissues to the environment. Interaction with these signaling systems is a potential mechanism by which very low-energy electromagnetic fields might produce metabolic responses in the body. Hormone and neurotransmitter receptors are specialized protein molecules that use a variety of biochemical activities to pass chemical signals from the outside of a cell across the plasma membrane to the interior of the cell. Since many low-energy electromagnetic fields have too little energy to directly traverse the membrane, it is possible that they may modify the existing signal transduction processes in cell membranes, thus producing both transduction and biochemical amplification of the effects of the field itself. As an example of the kinds of processes that may be involved in these interactions, one metabolic process in which the physiological effects of low-energy electromagnetic fields is well established is the healing of bone fractures. The process of regulation of bone turnover and healing is reviewed in the context of clinical applications of electromagnetic energy to the healing process, especially for persistent nonunion fractures. A hypothetical molecular mechanism is presented that might account for the observed effects of electromagnetic fields on bone cell metabolism in terms of the fields' interference with signal transduction events involved in the hormonal regulation of osteoblast function and differentiation.
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So? Don't you realise that these magnetic fields are generated by the body itself, or if they are applied externally, they are done in a highly controlled manner?
There is no reason to think that a god is doing the same thing. Further, if god had to constantly manipulate life from microsecond to microsecond to stop it from dying, instead of creating self-controlling organisms, it doesn't really tell you that god is a designer worth believing in, does it? Can't get it right the first time so god has to keep reprogramming? Pfft.
The way you speak and reject modern scientific knowledge it's apparent that you favor your imaginary "mechanisms" over reality. You may say "it's something to be investigated", but to me it sounds a lot like you've concluded that you're correct and you are fishing for evidence to back you up, instead of just letting current knowledge speak for itself.
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Stefan, the electric and magnetic fields generated within the human body are much different from the fields that travel through and around such things as ground wiring. The human body relies on direct current to function optimally, not the alternating current in use today at 50 or 60 cycles per second.
And microwaves are another story yet.
And why do you assume God made any mistakes with me and other electrosensitives? For one thing, if I were not electrosensitive, I might continue exposing myself unnecessarily to even higher levels of this radiation because I would likely have made the dangerous assumption that I did not need to fear something (or even someone?)that I could not see. The severity of my symptoms tells me that something pretty major electromagnetically is occurring in the atmosphere right now, and the one word I would use to describe myself as feeling over the last several years would be restless, hands-down.
And what about that magnetic pole reversal we keep hearing about? Maybe electrosensitivity, since I also am able to feel magnetic storms now, is nature's way of preparing those who do care about the earth and aren't so skeptical about the existence of an Intelligent Designer and Creator for what's to come?
These inconsistences will be corrected. The electromagnetism of the earth is no longer natural, and even the cells of our bodies have 'memory' of how things used to be when we were healthy - this is why we hear stories of spontaneous remissions of serious diseases. I think the universe has a similar memory, too, but I wouldn't count on wireless technologies and its infrastructures, satellites, and so on to survive these corrections.
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"And why do you assume God made any mistakes with me and other electrosensitives?"
At least most of us don't. I also don't assume that the fairies at the bottom of my garden made any mistakes in your creation.
Anyway,
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=17742.msg202245#msg202245
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What fascinates me is how the information is supposed to be carried by these fields. What form of modulation and coding do you envisage? Presumably there will modems and codecs inside each cell with the ability to distinguish the particular signals which are addressed to them. Has anyone actually detected these signals and shown their information content? What sort of transducers would be involved?
Strange that a minimalist system like a living organism would double up on its long-term signaling systems. Chemical AND em signals. When you think how complex the system for transferring nerve impulses around the body is, you'd think the body would use the existing 'radio communication' system for that purpose too - it would be faster as well.
We wouldn't even need to have developed speech -we already had a perfect potential wireless communication system.
I should be interested in hearing a few more details about how information theory applies to your proposed system.
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At least most of us don't. I also don't assume that the fairies at the bottom of my garden made any mistakes in your creation.
Bored chemist - ha ha funny.
Sophia,this deals with bone regeneration/healing, not the budding of trees, growth of hair follicles, etc... in response to electromagnetic/solar storms, but...
The Body Electric - Dr. Robert O. Becker - page 128
"We could now follow the control system of Wolff's Law. Mechanical stress on the bone produced a piezoelectric signal from the collagen. The signal was biphasic, switching polarity with each stress-and-release. The signal was rectified by the PN junction between apatite and collagen. This coherent signal did more than merely indicate that stress had occurred. Its strength told the cells how strong the stress was, and its polarity told them what direction it came from. Osteogenic cells where the potential was negative would be stimulated to grow more bone, while those in the positive area would close up shop and dismantle their matrix. If growth and resorption were considered as two aspects of one process, the electrical signal acted as an analog code to transfer information about stress to the cells and trigger the appropriate response."
"Now we knew how stress was converted into an electrical signal. We had discovered a transducer a device that transforms other forces into electricity or vice versa..."
Maybe they feel the same kind of 'stress' towards these solar and geomagnetic events that bone tissue does in response to injury, and they respond accordingly to the intensity and the direction of it? Either way, Dr. Becker likens it to an analog computer system. Since I don't know how computers work, maybe someone here could explain. I know he explains it earlier in the book as programming something to answer just 'yes' or 'no', very simple, and then moving on to the next yes-or-no until a biological process is completed.
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But messages need to be coded in some way so that they only reach the appropriate destination. Else, all cells would be stimulated. A very blunt instrument.
What sort of coding do you propose?
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I don't know - I think if I knew how to code cells to respond to my every whim, I'd be God.
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That's an interesting comment. You are implying that Biochemists who are decoding the Human Genome and who have been identifying the complex messages transmitted by hormones are God. Or perhaps the truth is that there ARE substantial numbers of messages carried chemically and very little transmitted by 'radiation'.
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There are two issues here.
It is true that some EM radiations have an effect of body processes. There are a number of established, mainstream, treatments which involve EM treatment. It is also possible that cells / organs may be sensitive to quite low levels on occasions.
The bit about 'instructions' and 'signalling' this way is just boloney. Such a proposal needs to involve a hypothetical (at least) structure which could achieve the effect. Has anything like that ever been found?
I think not. Yet again, the Non-Scientist confuses cause and effect.
They looked for nerves and found them - proof.
They looked for hormones and found them - proof.
Cell to cell radio.....? Has anybody actually looked for it?
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Oh, of course: Cell Phones
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I suggest you read Dr. Becker's book 'The Body Electric'. When he amputates a salamander's or frog's legs, he has been able to measure what he calls a 'current of injury'. In other words, the cells in the injured tissue itself are signaling other cells that there is a crisis and that they need to repair.
I don't think it is that crazy, therefore, to think that these radio bursts and electron fluxes and so forth are signals to the elements that make up all life forms on earth. And since a plant and a human likely have a different concentration of each of the elements, an electron flux likely tells a plant to do one thing and a human to do another.
If you check out Space Weather, notice how much activity was going on, especially radioburst-wise, when all the stuff about Colony Collapse started to hit the news? Same thing when the bats in the northeastern U.S. came down with White Nose Syndrome and started dying. Don't you find it interesting that both the honeybees and the bats became ill around the same time? - especially considering humans rely on honeybees for pollination (and thus, food) and on bats for pest control - without bats, we leave ourselves wide open to all sorts of mosquito-borne illness.
There's no way all the solar activity a couple of years ago was not clearly instruction to the honeybees and the bats, so why should I doubt I also was being given instructions? - not just my cells, but my thoughts?
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/alerts/archive.html#2006
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Why use the word 'instruction'?
When the Sun rises in the morning is it an 'instruction' for plants to start photosynthesis or are they just reacting to the light?
When it rains, is that an instruction for the frogs to come out and hop around in the garden?
An 'instruction' is a message, deliberately sent from someone to someone else. It's just a matter of faith whether or not someone is sending these instructions of yours. I wonder - does that someone also put the Sunspots there to warn us that a signal is on its way?
This is a Science forum not a Magic forum.
If Dr Becker has made some money from his book, then good luck to him. There are books which told us the World was going to end. They were published and bought regularly up until the point when the World didn't end.
It doesn't surprise me at all that you can measure small currents all over the body. You can also measure chemical gradients and they correlate well with many physiological changes.
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Dr. Becker is dead. He was nominated for the Nobel prize (twice, I believe) and was known as the Father of Electromedicine, but he's dead. He's not making any money now, and my experience on this forum (having my excitement/theories crushed) is pretty much what he describes in his book when he first started out.
People want to believe what they want to believe though. What does it really matter what word I use? Message? Instruction? Signal? Magic? They fit what I'm trying to suggest - the only problem, it seems, with my choice of words is that they suggest there might be a power greater than us (see, even I'm trying to avoid the word 'God' here) - a power though that knows more than we do and might actually care about us and have a plan for everything.
Explain happiness. I'd like to hear science explain happiness. Or love. If we're all just these eating, sleeping, reproducing nothings, then why do we need to feel happiness or love? Where's the chemical formula for happiness and love? If everything is only a rolling chain of chemical reactions, why can't we just do all of these things without feeling anything? Throw some chemicals in a beaker and show me some of those. Our thinking brains are our biggest flaw.
Do I think the sun rising in the morning is an 'instruction' for plants to start photosynthesis? You bet I do.
Do I think when it rains it's an 'instruction' for frogs to come out and splash around. Yeah.
By why do you think it's exclusive to just one life form at a time?
And we already know that the cycles of the moon have an effect and a purpose - one that's pretty vital to life. Why wouldn't the sunspots have some ulterior motive also? Just because it appears random to us and isn't nearly as predictable as the moon and other planets are, it just spews out these spots whenever for no reason? or for some chemical reason?
Birds respond to these instructions. Bees do. But we think everything we choose to do is of our own free will? - don't you think the birds and bees think they have free will, too? Or do you think the birds angrily go about their day flying south when they really wanted to do something else? They look pretty happy to me.
Life isn't just a bunch of chemicals. If it was, with our big brains we ought to have been able to create it on our own. But we've never created anything living without the use of something that was already alive, last time I checked.
I'm so tired of not being able to talk magic here though. Dr. Becker gave an example of how we'd be reluctant to believe that a caterpillar could emerge as a butterfly unless we'd seen it with our own eyes - makes me think maybe kids should be involved in science, and not adults.
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This just a matter of interpretation.
If you believe what you say then you can't ask for a scientific explanation for these phenomena. Science is looking for some consistent rules to allow us to predict what happens next. You are saying that none of these rules can be relied upon to apply in any specific case because 'someone' might change the outcome at any time in order to send us a message. Remember, a 'message' contains some added information; that must imply that the rules are being changed from what you'd expect - else there would be no information involved.
There is seriously no point in pursuing Science under those terms.