Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: David Sparkman on 10/08/2005 13:28:31
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One of the things Bin Laden gloated over in his post 911 vidioes was the cost of the damage the attack inflicted. Put down 100 Billion dollars as an initial low ball estimate. Add to that all the cost of Homeland security, increased costs of inspections at airports and now subways, the paper work, etc.
Ask yourself where does the money come from to pay for all these things, much which wouldn't be necessary if they didn't want to attack us. It come from decreasing our standard of living. We don't have as much now as we did before in real terms. The terrorists have succeeded in costing the world somewhere between a quarter and a half trillion dollars so far.
Are we winning? In our revolutionary war, the British won almost every battle. But the battles got too expensive, and so we won the war.
What is it going to take to "win" back our security?
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Somehow, i know the Goverment has a hand in this terrorism thing, i think they're using this terrorism act as a front for the i.d cards they're trying to bring to Britain (It's where you got to give them ALL of your imformation personal and other)
And if your stopped for any reason (Most of the time they dont have a good one) and you dont have your i.d card with you, you get arrested, NO QUESTIONS ASKED!
There's alot of other things that they could get out of it as well, more people (men especially) will get life insurance, and they could raise tax up by i dunno say 12.5%.
I think that the Goverment allow these people to do terroroist acts, and more than likely get paid for it as well.
Basically i say the terrorist are the goverment agencies,paying people to do terrorism for them or commiting the acts themselves,yeah thats right,the IRA, MI5, MI6, CIA and so forth...
Remember though,it's just my opinion.[^][^][;)]
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It's a vicious circle, in part the war on terror creates more terror. Is it already too late? I hope not!
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Well, i guess we got 9/11 to thank for all this crap
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9/11 was used as an excuse for going to Iraq.
Of course, Saddam had done bad stuff during his reign, but an excuse is an excuse.
George Bush Jr. finished what his father had started.
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I haven't forgotten what they did that day. It just doesn't justify everything!
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I question whether Bin Laden had anything to do with it or not, he just seems so...."Out of the Picture" these days, just forgotton, like he'd never existed.
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That leaves a lot of room for all kinds of conspiracy theories to develop.
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I really despise the goverment, they're too sneaky...and devious
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about the ID card comment - don't you think the government already knows everything there is about you anyway? ID cards would just make it a lot quicker to get all this information together. if you've got nothing to hide there's nothing to worry about. it won't give anyone any more info than they already have. most other countries have ID cards already, foreign nationals are encouraged to carry their passports in lieu. its not a new idea, its not radical, the cost is the main concern rather than the idea itself.
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But what if has a more deeper, hidden meaning?
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Something just tells me that it is not a good idea, i dont know what, but i just dont trust it.
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I hold with the incompetent and lazy theory over the conspiricy theory. We had groups within our government that were pushing the idea that 4 of the 911 bombers were alquida, but due to regulations and careful lawyers, that idea did not get to the right people in time. (CIA forbidden to talk to the FBI by law - would contaminate a criminal case. FBI could not search a laptop until after a formal hearing before a judge, something being pushed off by the defendent.)
Yes the government has a lot of information, but the various departments like the quirks in each computer system, so the systems can't talk to each other efficently. The IRS had 3 generations of software running at once and has no idea when they can merge their systems together. Thank God, I am filing late this year...
One aspect of the problem is the scale of carnage. A cowboy used to walk into the bar and shoot it up. Now we kill hundreds to thousands with a chemical bomb. And we are all worried about the next generation terrorists. If they pull off a dirty bomb in London or NYC, what will be our response?
Going away for a few days to earn some money and for a family reunion far far away from terrorists in the hills of Kentucky. You show ID by who you are married to, or who your cousin is, and those who fail get run off with buckshot.
David
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quote:
Originally posted by fishytails
about the ID card comment - don't you think the government already knows everything there is about you anyway? ID cards would just make it a lot quicker to get all this information together. if you've got nothing to hide there's nothing to worry about. it won't give anyone any more info than they already have. most other countries have ID cards already, foreign nationals are encouraged to carry their passports in lieu. its not a new idea, its not radical, the cost is the main concern rather than the idea itself.
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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welcome to the dirty world of politics.
I personally i think that terrorism, doesnt work as a solution to any of these sort of groups problems (unless its just hate). so what do they gain by these acts of terrorism?
and do goverments use terrorist attacks when they happen?
sir loony
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Hmmm again I don't believe it is necessarly Government, but rather opertunistic politicians that see a reason for ID's and taxes. Here in the states they estimate 25% of the economy is under the table (black market) and, horror of horrors, doesn't get taxed.
Some people like that and resist Big Brother knowing much about us.
And who can argue against security? That is the main reason we submit to government.
Terrorist motivation is another story. Those that die are the dumb ones. Lack of love or purpose in life leads to making a splash of themselves, or perhaps collecting $25,000 for their poor family from those rich oil sheiks that like their daily entertaiment. You can't waste all your resources on the dumb ones, you have to eliminate the smart ones, the ones who send others to die for them.
David
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I don't get the argument against ID cards they seem like a sensible idea to me. All this crap about "The Government" being all pervasive and looking at all you do... what a load of crap, wtf would they care about most of what you do. They have far more important things to be looking at. What if they were looking at what you were doing? So long as it isn't against the law you have no problem, if you don't like the law it can be changed! Just lobby your MP. Organised society with a central government is a good thing!
wOw the world spins?
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quote:
Originally posted by Ultima
I don't get the argument against ID cards they seem like a sensible idea to me. All this crap about "The Government" being all pervasive and looking at all you do... what a load of crap, wtf would they care about most of what you do. They have far more important things to be looking at. What if they were looking at what you were doing? So long as it isn't against the law you have no problem, if you don't like the law it can be changed! Just lobby your MP. Organised society with a central government is a good thing!
wOw the world spins?
You'd be suprised Ultima![:)]
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quote:
Has anyone took notice of my 'Real Name' yet??
Was it 13?
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quote:
Originally posted by memasa
quote:
Has anyone took notice of my 'Real Name' yet??
Was it 13?
[?][?][?]
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YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!
Has anyone took notice of my 'Real Name' yet??
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quote:
Has anyone took notice of my 'Real Name' yet??
jüdisch Arschloch......so where's that from ? is it slovanic ?
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German
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Inducing excrement is lethal!
YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!
Has anyone took notice of my 'Real Name' yet??
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2005/110805perspective.htm
Quicktime needed!
Funny Stuff Trust Me!
Not to be missed!
Will appeal to all audiences!
Especially Rock fans!
Sounds Best if your speakers have Bass.....or Base!
However it's spelt
Also:
http://www.kontraband.com/
They have some funny stuff!!
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Quote, Razor - Has anyone took notice of my 'Real Name' yet??
When I looked at your profile it showed "Queimadura Espírito" - where's all this "jüdisch Arschloch" stuff coming from? And if it's from you, why are you drawing attention to it?
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P.S Do not take notice of my "Real" name.
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quote:
Originally posted by Simmer
Quote, Razor - Has anyone took notice of my 'Real Name' yet??
When I looked at your profile it showed "Queimadura Espírito" - where's all this "jüdisch Arschloch" stuff coming from? And if it's from you, why are you drawing attention to it?
Okay Simmer dont stress your mind over it now.
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We're not stressed at all razor...just asking why you want us to look at your real name that's all....I'm quite calm today..thanks
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I will respond to the original question: are we winning?
In any conflict, both sides have objectives. Bin Laden picked this fight, and he definitely had objectives. One was indeed to damage the economy of the United States by inflicting economic damage and increased costs. A more general aim was to breed conditions for unending conflict between the Islamic world and the Western world- in a religious sense, he desires purification through destruction. The problem with this aim is that many elements of the Islamic World really do not desire unending conflict with the West- and many elements of the West do not desie unending conflict with the islamic World. But Bin Laden has I think done an okay job of keeping the pot simmering, with some help from George Bush's invasion of Iraq. That move was not a good way to combat militant fundamentalist Islam (which was nonexistant in Saddam Hussein's Baath party dictatorship), but by presenting an example of the occupation of an Arab nation by the U.S., especially with Abu Ghraib, it resulted in some recruiting success for Al Qaeda.
There are elements of a traditional guerilla war in the Al Qaeda situation. Our opponents lack our firepower and numbers, and must rely on an understanding of our weaknesses to inflict damage. Barring access to nuclear weapons, they have no hope of a knockout blow. But Bin Laden is less interested in a knockout blow than he is interested in keeping the pot on the stove. Our objective for the long term should be to create a world in which everyone throughout the Islamic World will ignore Bin Laden as an idiotic crank. We are far from achieving that goal. Remove the word "crusade" from your vocabulary. It is good strategy while seeking to capture Al Qaeda's leaders to try to remove the pot from the stove by fostering peace between Israel and Palestine, and leaving Iraq when we can.
chris wiegard
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Ah a good answer. Thanks Chris.
Could not one of the main reasons for taking out Iraq have been to put distance between the Muslim states and the funding of Hesbola (sorry cant spell). Husan was donating 25,000 per suicide bomber. Now Saudia Arabia is slowly and quietly starting to cut back on their funding, and their stridant clerics.
Islamic terrorists can now operate in only two countries where the government only winks at their behavior: Syria, and Iran. They run risks in every other country of being betrayed.
If (big if) peace breaks out in Iseral/Palistine, then the terrorists will need to find another cause. My read is that Syria is getting a pass right now because of all the concern about Iran. But Syria will not stand up to much pressure, and will decide like Lybia, that peace is better than mischief.
The real problem for the time being is in Iran where the struggle between secular muslims and fundamentalists is playing out. And if nukes start getting thrown around, the world will wake up to a much meaner, harsher future.
David
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If (big if) peace breaks out in Iseral/Palistine, then the terrorists will need to find another cause.
Peace has broken out in Northern Ireland after thirty years of conflict. Have the terrorists gone looking for another cause to fight?
"They're all animals anyway. All the animals come out at night"
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My thoughts exactly Chris, one of the brewings of Bin Ladin seems to be the creating of tendence for radicality in Islamic minorities in the western world. Even before the september 11th attacks this tendence could be sensed in Europe, people were more interested in Islamic traditionalism. One of the things the september 11th attacks did do is encouraging people to speak up against islamic dogmatism, which, in my opinion is a great threat to free thought among muslim minorities.
[:P]
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One of the worst aspects of islamic fundamentalism or "Wahabism"- named for the ultraconservative Saudi brand of Islam- for me is it's portrayal of women. I remember before 9/11 that there were women's groups in the U.S.A. trying to get our government interested in what the Taliban was doing to the women of Afghanistan. This brand of Islam pretends to want to "protect" women. But instead of concentrating on the vital goal of improving the way men treat women in their nations, they tell women to wrap themselves in cloth from head to toe and never leave home. This is "protection"? No, it is tyrannical abuse of the worse sort. We need to tell the islamic states the truth-that if they are ever to take their rightful places in the family of nations it will be because they finally choose to accept the positive contributions of their women- the half of the population in any nation that has the most sense about most matters.
chris wiegard