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Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: Airthumbs on 11/01/2011 23:42:51

Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Airthumbs on 11/01/2011 23:42:51
If information can travel faster then the speed of light, does it have a limit as that of light?
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 11/01/2011 23:46:16
Information comes in bits, materialistic bits. Information about the system is contained within the energy or matter a system is made of. Information therefore cannot travel faster than light. Though Doctor Fred Alan Wolf if I recall, believed that ethereal information can travel faster than light.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Airthumbs on 12/01/2011 00:00:52
I was referring to an EPR paradox, in this case the entanglement of two separated particles and observing their quantum states.  Although I see that this is instantaneous I am wondering if that over huge distances this effect has a speed limit.
Also the information I am referring too is the information passed between to two particles upon observation of one of them.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: JP on 12/01/2011 04:14:10
The usual definition of information is in terms of bits, as quantumclue said.  In quantum mechanics, you can send information by preparing a quantum particle in different states, so that each state represents information.  Entanglement basically involves forcing two particles to be related in such a way that changing one of them (by measuring it) changes the one on the other end, so you can send something between the two particles.

The problem comes when you try to actually send usable information that way.  It turns out the person on the receiving end has to get some additional information from you before they can interpret that the quantum particle did, and this additional information is limited by the speed of light.

So in summary, there is apparently something happening faster-than-light for quantum systems, but it's not usable information as far as we know.

-----------------------
By the way, Quantumclue also mentions Fred Allan Wolf.  I would recommend taking anything from Dr. Wolf with a large dose of skepticism.  He's a big proponent of quantum pseudoscience and publishes a lot of books that are very poorly regarded by mainstream science.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 12/01/2011 06:06:03
Annoying, isn't it. If it worked, instantaneous communication would have some interesting applications.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 12/01/2011 09:34:42

-----------------------
By the way, Quantumclue also mentions Fred Allan Wolf.  I would recommend taking anything from Dr. Wolf with a large dose of skepticism.  He's a big proponent of quantum pseudoscience and publishes a lot of books that are very poorly regarded by mainstream science.

I don't know his work well enough of form that kind of opinion :)
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Airthumbs on 12/01/2011 13:37:38
If instantaneous communications is possible using quantum mechanics then this must be a good way of chatting to aliens over huge cosmic distances.  Something is passing between the two entangled particles.  I am not quantum scientist, so I ask is it possible to have two entangled particles existing, lets say at opposite ends of the visible universe?
And also has anyone been able to identify exactly what is passing between the two particles in an entangled state?
And is it possible that we could have such systems in our brains?
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: syhprum on 12/01/2011 14:25:57
There is some evidence that the influence of gravity travels faster than c (see the correspondence on this forum) therefor communication via gravity waves should be able to transmit information at superluminal speed.
The problem is the technology the generation of gravity waves requires the movement of very large masses and the most sensitive receivers so far built have failed to detect any naturally occurring ones.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 12/01/2011 15:01:14
If anything there is the possibility that information tunnels. That means it removes the superluminal suspects.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Foolosophy on 12/01/2011 15:47:48
Depending on how you define information, NOT all information is discrete
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: imatfaal on 12/01/2011 16:23:13
To be dull and orthodox; at present gravitational waves are thought to travel at light speed per GR, and quantum entanglement cannot lead to a transfer of information. 

Admittedly there is a lot of speculation over the speed of gravitational waves - but as none have been detected, you pays your money your takes your choice over which theory you wish to follow and it needs a great argument to bypass GR.  Its by no means settled - but if you are gonna bet on a theory I would go with GR every time.

Quantum entanglement has the prospect of being able to transfer information - but at present it does not.  If you set two electrons to an entangled state and take them apart then the entanglement remains - which might be useful; but as soon as you measure one of them, or align one of them the entanglement is broken.  you can't wiggle one of the electron on earth and watch its entangled pair wiggle on alpha centuri. 
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 12/01/2011 18:25:17
I suppose it's possible to use it as a means to synchronize events at two locations.

http://www.physorg.com/news132830327.html
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: imatfaal on 12/01/2011 18:47:05
Thanks Geezer - just read the summary  you gave and an article in Nature by the same guy Daniel Salart.  I can't post a link to the Nature article as it is behind pay-wall - but I am sure a little google scholaring would dig it up. 

Anyone know of a nice intro to Franson Interferometry? 
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: yor_on on 13/01/2011 04:18:45
Yep, but that's where I wonder.
What about plants using entanglements to transfer 'energy'`? Converting it into chemical biological nourishment?

If they do so, instantly, as the term is. Then I would consider this a very 'meaningful' information. I can't see anything more meaningful in a universe in fact. And there was also a proposition on how to use 'energy' transfered to one 'entangled' particle to give his 'twin' the same amount-

That one phreaks me out totally in fact :)
If it would work you would get two 'energy quanta' out of one. Then we would have to look at a lot of ideas we take for granted, like energy conservation, and reformulate it, it seems to me?
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: yor_on on 13/01/2011 04:20:53
Or as I do, reformulate the concept of 'energy'.
I think that might work too?
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: JP on 13/01/2011 06:57:27
Yor_on, I'm unaware of cases where you can send energy through entanglement.  From what I know of entanglement, it sounds impossible.  If you have a source for plants entangling energy, that would be interesting to read, though.

If you receive an entangled particle, it's in multiple quantum states at once (as a quantum superposition).  If you measure the particle, you see only one state, though.  When you generated it, you set probabilities of seeing each one of those states.  Entanglement just means that your measurement will influence the results your friend will get upon measurement, who has the entangled partner of your particle. 

If you somehow entangle energy states, and measure a high energy state, you haven't created or sent energy--it was already in both particles.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Foolosophy on 13/01/2011 07:15:16
If anything there is the possibility that information tunnels. That means it removes the superluminal suspects.

tunneling does not imply an increase in speed or speeds in excess of the speed of light

You not only must show how the tunneling mechanism works but whether it can be detected

Otherwise we are taking about Scientific Religious dogma
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 13/01/2011 07:50:30
Who said anything about tunneling? The experiment clearly demonstrates the phenomenon. It is not required to demonstrate how the phenomenon works.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: yor_on on 13/01/2011 09:03:02
JP look at this Photosynthesis. (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=quantum-entanglement-and-photo)  And there was another better one one that I linked here before? Ah, here :) Chloroplasts use of entanglement's to transport solar energy  (http://www.sciencereview.dreamhosters.com/blog/?p=60) and here's the PDF..Quantum entanglement in photosynthetic light harvesting complexes. (http://arxiv.org/pdf/0905.3787v2)
==

Although i might jump to conclusions here I get the impression that it works?

"Researchers are increasingly trying to peek inside nature’s bag of tricks and develop a new generation of biologically-inspired photovoltaics. Two recent discoveries represent significant progress toward this goal. The first of these papers  was from a group of UC Berkeley researchers, led by chemistry professors Graham Fleming and Birgitta Whaley. They demonstrated that chloroplasts make use of a quantum physical effect known as entanglement to transport solar energy from light harvesting pigments to chemical reaction centers with extraordinary efficiency. Entanglement causes pairs of electrons that are spatially separated to behave like a single particle, meaning any change to one electron instantaneously affects the other. In plants, this effect allows solar energy to be stored in a high-energy electron configuration for a long enough period of time to be transferred to the chemical reaction centers before any of the energy has a chance to leak away."
==

And this is also what I'm talking about when I say I saw a proposition testing just this, to send 'energy' over a entanglement boosting one photon. I don't have the link to that one though, but I'm sure I put it up, somewhere? :)
==

"The second recent innovation, made by a group led by Professor Michael Strano at MIT, is an artificial light-harvesting structure  that has the ability to reassemble after its molecules have been broken apart by light. This mimics the mechanism used by plants to combat gradual reductions in conversion efficiency over time. In plants, proteins in the light harvesting regions typically break apart and reassemble every 45 minutes, a process that maintains the health of the system year after year. Similarly, damaged structures in the MIT group’s concoction reassemble whenever a surfactant is added to and subsequently removed from the solution. Thought to be the most complex man-made self-assembling system ever developed, their structure consist of seven different compounds, including carbon nanotubes, proteins, and phospholipids. Although their device isn’t quite ready yet to compete with silicon-based solar cells, their work represents the first step towards developing long-lasting, low-cost solar cell materials using nature’s own self-repairing approach."
==

But yes, you're correct in that it has to be injected somehow without measuring, I wish i had that link I'm talking about. In it I think they suggested some way, although thinking of it? It would have to be very weird to work. Da*n :)

I kind'a liked it..
The idea :)
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: lightarrow on 13/01/2011 09:16:31
If instantaneous communications is possible using quantum mechanics then this must be a good way of chatting to aliens over huge cosmic distances. 
No, there is no relation between the two things. In QM what is "istantaneous" or however, very fast, cannot be properly called "communication".
Anyway, transmission of information faster than c is not possible.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: yor_on on 13/01/2011 09:28:12
Okay doubters worldwide :)

I found it. (http://www.physorg.com/news184597481.html)
==

And I was wrong. It seems pretty straightforward to me, the concept? But if it works it will give me a headache :). I have no problem with 'energy' being a relation and not its own 'thingie'. But if this works you will have to question the conservation of energy it seems to me??

"In quantum energy teleportation, a physicist first makes a measurement on each of two entangled particles. The measurement on the first particle injects quantum energy into the two-particle system, which is possible because there are always quantum fluctuations  in the energy of any particle. This energy can then be immediately extracted at the second particle by making a second carefully chosen measurement on that particle. Throughout the process, the energy of the overall system remains the same. "

Sounds very much like those clever sales "Get two to the price of one!" And that gives me a headache.
==

And here is the preprint Energy-Entanglement Relation for Quantum Energy Teleportation by Japanese physicist Masahiro Hotta of Tohoku University. (http://arxiv.org/pdf/1002.0200.pdf$$yPreprint)
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: yor_on on 13/01/2011 09:59:20
And as long as we're on it..

Sorry, will try to find something you can read without being subscribed.
Una momento.

Okay here is the original paper. the joint winner of the Nobel Prize for medicine in 2008, Luc Montagnier is claiming that DNA can send 'electromagnetic imprints' of it self into distant cells and fluids which can then be used by enzymes to create copies of the original DNA. Meaning Quantum teleportation. (http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1012/1012.5166v1.pdf)

But I still find the 'energy idea above this even more surprising :)
And this idea is not a happy camper. A lot of scientific flack hammering this one :)
==

Maybe 'Quantum teleportation' is a little to much though?
Don't know what he means actually?

He seems to have a history of ah, surprising ideas :) Which is good in one way, bad in another. It's good to have ideas, but if you're trying to push them as being the certified truth? Then we get into another shoe altogether as you English say, or don't say? See if I care huh :)

Take a look Here. 2009 (http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2009/10/why-i-am-nominating-luc-montagnier-for.html)

==

Eh, this is not mine but do I wish :)

"Honest! My DNA teleported into her. I never touched her. I swear it."
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: lightarrow on 13/01/2011 16:52:57
"In quantum energy teleportation, a physicist first makes a measurement on each of two entangled particles. The measurement on the first particle injects quantum energy into the two-particle system, which is possible because there are always quantum fluctuations  in the energy of any particle. This energy can then be immediately extracted at the second particle by making a second carefully chosen measurement on that particle. Throughout the process, the energy of the overall system remains the same. "
Ok, but it's impossible to know "a priori" the result of the measurement on the first particle, so you don't know "a priori" which amount of energy will be teleported in the other, so you cannot send information in this way.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: yor_on on 13/01/2011 18:05:53
Maybe not, to me it depends on what one consider 'meaningful information' to be. For me , if now a plant get something out of 'energy', I would consider that to have to be seen as 'information' too. To me it makes it a da*n bit (no pun intended) more important than 'qbits'. As it actually is seen to work on a practical plane. If I got it right that is :)
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Airthumbs on 13/01/2011 19:01:34
But you can easily send information using two entangled particles!!  You just have to have the language sorted out before you attempt anything. 

Ok lets say one wiggle is a 0 and two wiggles is a 1.   Using this technique you would have binary code. 

From what I understand, if one of these particles is made to rotate clockwise then the other entangled particle will have to be rotating the opposite way. 

Of course if I am wrong and I may well be then none of the above would work!  [:o]
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: lightarrow on 13/01/2011 20:19:37
Of course if I am wrong and I may well be then none of the above would work!  [:o]
Correct  [:)]
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 13/01/2011 20:42:34
Of course if I am wrong and I may well be then none of the above would work!  [:o]
Correct  [:)]

Ah yes, but if you were to send a continuous stream of entangled particles from A to B and C, you could use a sort of Morse Code that was based on whether you measured them or not - maybe?
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 13/01/2011 21:56:29
Geezer

You asked how tunneling entered the discussion early on. That was me.

The reason why something tunnels, as I am sure you may be aware, is because some kind of ''hill'' stands between an efficient trajectory of a particle. The hill is a steep potential, and it costs less energy to tunnel this barrier rather than travel the whole deal. In much the same sense, a high potential is created when talking about information sharing over very large distances. To avoid the trouble of contradicting SR postulates, it may be best to imagine information being forced to tunnel large distances, rather than allowing it to travel it at superluminal speeds.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 13/01/2011 22:05:49
Geezer

You asked how tunneling entered the discussion early on. That was me.

The reason why something tunnels, as I am sure you may be aware, is because some kind of ''hill'' stands between an efficient trajectory of a particle. The hill is a steep potential, and it costs less energy to tunnel this barrier rather than travel the whole deal. In much the same sense, a high potential is created when talking about information sharing over very large distances. To avoid the trouble of contradicting SR postulates, it may be best to imagine information being forced to tunnel large distances, rather than allowing it to travel it at superluminal speeds.

Thanks QC. Yes, that does make sense and it might well explain what's going on, not that I can understand it or anything!
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 13/01/2011 22:24:56
Of course, this depends if our universe really does have a description of nonlocality. To be honest, I'm not even sure how to visualize something complex like nonlocality. Surely however, if nonlocality exists, it is not safe to call the universe purely nonlocal in nature. In all reasoning, the universe must be local and nonlocal depending on what circumstances of a system is brought to attention. Locality cannot simply die as a true definition of certain systems in light of a nonlocal attribute.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: JP on 14/01/2011 01:40:51
There were some experiments done by a fellow named Gunther Nimtz on the speed of tunneling photons.  He claims to have seen them moving faster than light, but it's a bit controversial at the moment, since no one's reproduced it, and obviously this kind of claim has to be checked very carefully.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: yor_on on 14/01/2011 01:52:57
But you can easily send information using two entangled particles!!  You just have to have the language sorted out before you attempt anything. 

Ok lets say one wiggle is a 0 and two wiggles is a 1.   Using this technique you would have binary code. 

From what I understand, if one of these particles is made to rotate clockwise then the other entangled particle will have to be rotating the opposite way. 

Of course if I am wrong and I may well be then none of the above would work!  [:o]

The problem is how to make the code make sense :)

You could possibly send entangled photons like we've done in some experiments, but first you will have to send the decoder, and that you will need to do at under light speed. It would not be smart to send that by the same entanglements. The other restriction is in one photons spin per 'bit of information' and you will need a lot of those to tell which letter you mean. so assuming that you sent someone away he will need to store an awful lot of entangled photons for an awful long time before needing them, as he moves under light speed. On the other hand you then have solved the 'decoder' problem as you gave it to him before he left your planet.

The other way is to send 'entangled photons' on their own, then they will move at 'c' but not faster to whatever destination. And you still need to send a 'code book'. The third way is to assume that all light might be entangled some way? Then I think someone would have used it already to give us improbable spins when measuring. That would be one way to 'communicate' even if not making 'sense' as we have no 'codebook'.
=

Another thing, when measuring a spin you can't know before how it will fall out for you. That the opposite spin gets created doesn't mean that you would know which type of spin it was. Assume then a order of photons in a row where the information depend on which photon change spin for you, at what position in that row, at that star. But how would you ever know that one of them had changed 'spin'? Without measuring them?

And when you do you destroy it. The spin I mean, you 'set' it as you measure.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 14/01/2011 06:24:28

You could possibly send entangled photons like we've done in some experiments, but first you will have to send the decoder, and that you will need to do at under light speed. It would not be smart to send that by the same entanglements. The other restriction is in one photons spin per 'bit of information' and you will need a lot of those to tell which letter you mean. so assuming that you sent someone away he will need to store an awful lot of entangled photons for an awful long time before needing them, as he moves under light speed. On the other hand you then have solved the 'decoder' problem as you gave it to him before he left your planet.

The other way is to send 'entangled photons' on their own, then they will move at 'c' but not faster to whatever destination. And you still need to send a 'code book'. The third way is to assume that all light might be entangled some way? Then I think someone would have used it already to give us improbable spins when measuring. That would be one way to 'communicate' even if not making 'sense' as we have no 'codebook'.
=

Another thing, when measuring a spin you can't know before how it will fall out for you. That the opposite spin gets created doesn't mean that you would know which type of spin it was. Assume then a order of photons in a row where the information depend on which photon change spin for you, at what position in that row, at that star. But how would you ever know that one of them had changed 'spin'? Without measuring them?

And when you do you destroy it. The spin I mean, you 'set' it as you measure.

I've really no idea if this would work, but I suspect the only option is to have two "stores" of entangled photons at both ends. You sort of have to take them with you, otherwise it could be a bit pointless.

Then, assuming you can figure out some method of encoding a message (which may well be impossible), you have the problem that the store is finite, so once you've depleted the store, you can no longer communicate until you get a "refill" at, or less than, light speed.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: JP on 14/01/2011 06:56:02
It's a bit beyond me to come up with a general proof that entanglement can't send information faster than light.  I don't know if anyone can do that, actually.  I do know that every attempt to come up with an FTL-transfer scheme based on entanglement apparently fails to actually send information until a classical channel is opened up.

If someone wants to take a stab at proposing a method for an FTL information transfer based on entanglement, maybe we can show why it can't work...
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 14/01/2011 07:40:11
It's a bit beyond me to come up with a general proof that entanglement can't send information faster than light.  I don't know if anyone can do that, actually.  I do know that every attempt to come up with an FTL-transfer scheme based on entanglement apparently fails to actually send information until a classical channel is opened up.

If someone wants to take a stab at proposing a method for an FTL information transfer based on entanglement, maybe we can show why it can't work...

Good idea. Let's see if this can survive for a couple of picoseconds:

Assuming you and I have very large photon stores, as previously mentioned, if you are reading your store at the same time as I am - nope! That's not going to work.

The problem seems to be that, as we can't know what the sequence is in advance, we can only prove that we were "communicating" by comparing our results after the fact. Is that about right?

Or, it's as if we both have an envelope that contains the same random number. I can alter your random number when I read my copy, but, because you cannot know what the original number was, you have no way of knowing whether I changed it or not.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 14/01/2011 08:11:44
Soooo, if that's true and we have multiple envelopes containing numbers that actually have some sort of statistical bias, that would allow me to read my envelopes in a way that either increased, or decreased, that bias, which you should be able to detect as a form of Morse Code.

However, if it's not possible to create envelopes with biased numbers, it's not going to work. 
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: JP on 14/01/2011 08:33:24
Exactly!  The random-envelope situation is the exact problem with the simple setup for sending information via entanglements.  The numbers I read appear random, regardless of what you've done.  It's only when you send some light-speed information that I know whether you've measured or not.

I don't think there's a way to create bias with measurements alone--at least I can't think of a simple way to do it, and I presume if there was, someone would have come up with it already.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: JP on 14/01/2011 08:37:09
But the random-envelope case also shows a really good use of quantum entanglement: cryptography.  If I want to send you a coded message, I first need to come up with a secure key and send it to you.  If I sent you a bunch of entangled particles, then I measure them, I'm determining a random key that we both will agree on. (The actual algorithms are more complicated, since they involve ways of detecting eavesdropping, which effects the quantum statistics between entangled particles.)
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: yor_on on 14/01/2011 10:13:03
JP when you let a photon into a condense, 'stopping it'? Do one set the spin then too? Or can I look at that as something not interfering with the photons superposition?

Myself i have this feeling that as soon as one 'touch it' in any way the spin must be set, no matter if you measure it or not. On the third hand that would mean that  I've now 'interacted' with it, without destroying it, if so? Nah, It gotta be superpositioned even after you slowed it down. Or I will have to rethink what an 'interaction' means.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: JP on 14/01/2011 11:03:37
Usually "slowing it down" implies not destroying the superposition. 
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 14/01/2011 16:49:15
There were some experiments done by a fellow named Gunther Nimtz on the speed of tunneling photons.  He claims to have seen them moving faster than light, but it's a bit controversial at the moment, since no one's reproduced it, and obviously this kind of claim has to be checked very carefully.

Fascinating.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Airthumbs on 14/01/2011 20:57:36
Ok, so instead of rotating the entangled particles why not make one of them positive, this would mean the other has to be negative? 

And then instead of using just a pair of entangled particles to try and transmit, you could use literally millions of them allowing complex transmission and receivers. 

Has anyone discovered what exactly is the information that passes between the two entangled particles?  Something is transmitted and whatever that is moves significantly faster then the speed of light.  You might even say that the speed is infinite?  So maybe the maximum speed of information in this context is infinity? What I find fascinating is that there appears to be some kind of force capable of traversing the entire universe instantaneously!

If there is a way to identify exactly what this is and investigate it then we might have a way to talk to the stars  [;D]
You can tunnel, dig, fold, or even worm your way through space so why not just ignore it all together, something does!
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 14/01/2011 21:16:10
Ok, so instead of rotating the entangled particles why not make one of them positive, this would mean the other has to be negative? 

And then instead of using just a pair of entangled particles to try and transmit, you could use literally millions of them allowing complex transmission and receivers. 

Has anyone discovered what exactly is the information that passes between the two entangled particles?  Something is transmitted and whatever that is moves significantly faster then the speed of light.  You might even say that the speed is infinite?  So maybe the maximum speed of information in this context is infinity? What I find fascinating is that there appears to be some kind of force capable of traversing the entire universe instantaneously!

If there is a way to identify exactly what this is and investigate it then we might have a way to talk to the stars  [;D]
You can tunnel, dig, fold, or even worm your way through space so why not just ignore it all together, something does!

Well, we just don't know do we :)

It's probably a safe bet to say that whatever it is, it is not a physical transaction. Whatever it is, Bells Theorem has, and I qoute:

''In conjunction with the experiments verifying the quantum mechanical predictions of Bell-type systems, Bell's theorem demonstrates that certain quantum effects travel faster than light and therefore restricts the class of tenable hidden variable theories to the nonlocal variety.''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 14/01/2011 21:19:16
Ok, so instead of rotating the entangled particles why not make one of them positive, this would mean the other has to be negative?

Sadly, it would not make any difference. The root of the problem is that you can't influence the "direction" of the entanglement during the entanglement process. You are creating a random number when what you really want to do is create a nonrandom number, but that's not possible.

Think of it this way. You need a way to load the dice. Unfortunately, you can't ever get you hands on them. Not only that, you can't even look at them in advance, so you have no prior knowledge of the random number that was generated.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 14/01/2011 21:36:02
Wait a minute!

If we didn't know what the random number was in the first place, how do we know all this measuring palaver is doing a dang thing?
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: imatfaal on 14/01/2011 21:45:29
Because even though you have separated in space the entangled particles continue to produce the same interference/random number/measurement.  Per the experiment you posted yesterday - the photons interfered although geographically remote to an extent that any communication between them would have to be superluminal.  the entangled photons caused the same macroscopic events to occur - and to show that no lightspeed particle had conveyed a signal from one to the other - the two sites were placed far enough apart that both macroscopic events would have completed before any lightspeed particle/information would have time to bridge the gap.   
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 15/01/2011 00:30:49
Thanks Matthew. That's not what I was concerned about. I'll have to read up on the measuring process again. I suspect I'll find the answer there.

What I'm wondering is, could the pair be "fooling" us into thinking that they are interacting superluminally as a result of our measuring when they are actually ignoring us, so to speak. If we knew a state before we measured it, we would know for sure, but we can't do that. I'm sure there's a good answer though.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 15/01/2011 01:55:49
Geezer

I cannot help but read this last one as invoking perhaps some kind of determinism, is this what you are hinting at?
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 15/01/2011 02:47:55
Geezer

I cannot help but read this last one as invoking perhaps some kind of determinism, is this what you are hinting at?

I wouldn't really know [;D] but I don't think that's what I mean to imply. I'm wondering if there could be some sneaky false assumption in the logic, although I can't imagine how that would get past so many clever scientists. I asked the question more because I don't fully understand it myself than as a direct challenge to the experiment.

However, as you bring it up, if there was some sort of determinism at play, would the experiment point to that as a possible explanation?


Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: JP on 15/01/2011 03:42:51
Geezer, check this post and the one I make following it.  It's a description of the unique statistics of entanglement in one case.  It might help clear things up.  Then again, it might not.  :)

There are also more general proofs (Bell's inequalities) that quantum entanglement generates unique statistics that can't be generated by "hidden variables," i.e. that the numbers aren't set up with local variables that let them decide to agree without having to communicate something to each other instantly.  If you Google for tests of Bell's inequality, you'll find plenty of experiments testing this and finding that entanglement is not generated by hidden variables.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 15/01/2011 05:05:22
Eweooooo!

It's not quite as cut and dried as I thought. One thing that I didn't happen to see any mention of is that the setup attempts to measure both particles at the same time, so you don't really know who won the duel.

I found myself wondering what would happen if one path was deliberately slightly longer so that the a side was always measuring first for part of the experiment, then vice versa for the other part, would it alter the outcome at all. At least it might simplify the detector logic.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 15/01/2011 05:26:02
Geezer

I cannot help but read this last one as invoking perhaps some kind of determinism, is this what you are hinting at?

I wouldn't really know [;D] but I don't think that's what I mean to imply. I'm wondering if there could be some sneaky false assumption in the logic, although I can't imagine how that would get past so many clever scientists. I asked the question more because I don't fully understand it myself than as a direct challenge to the experiment.

However, as you bring it up, if there was some sort of determinism at play, would the experiment point to that as a possible explanation?




I don't know personally.

What did you mean by ''ignoring us?'' Can you be a tad more technical mate?
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 15/01/2011 05:48:33
What did you mean by ''ignoring us?'' Can you be a tad more technical mate?

Having read a bit more on the subject, I think that would be the same as saying there is no superluminal link between the entangled particles and hidden variables account for the experimental results.

It's interesting that Bell himself might have been slightly concerned that it could all be a consequence of superdeterminism, although I personally don't subscribe to that philosophy.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 15/01/2011 07:09:00
Ah yes, of course, I forgot about Superdeterminism. I like it.

It's not for people though who believe that quantum mechanics is built on a randomized world... personally, I have never fully detatched from some super, underlying principle which governs everything.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 16/01/2011 11:52:16
It struck me this morning a solution to the idea of all our discussions so far.

Accoridng to this equation:

vp=c/√1-ω0

the group velocity has a solution where a system of information can travel at superluminal speeds. Usually the speed of information will travel at the group velocity which travels at lightspeed, so if someone wanted to invoke the idea that at times information can travel at superluminal speeds, then it must violate the usual group velcity.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: JP on 16/01/2011 14:50:52
The group velocity is not the same as the information velocity.  It certainly can exceed the speed of light, but the information-containing part of a pulse of light always moves at the speed of light or slower.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 16/01/2011 15:05:04
Of course it applys to information. Bits representing up and down spins, may have a transfer of information, and according to that equation, one for exceeding lightspeed.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: JP on 16/01/2011 15:32:31
No.  No it doesn't.  I've extensively studied group velocities in light pulses, and it isn't information velocity.  Period.

If you want to start up a discussion of why it isn't, I could go into it, but I think it might derail this thread.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 16/01/2011 15:45:35
What does information mean to you? I see information as being part of the system. It could be tangible, it could be ethereal, but in effect it is all about what makes that system up... what is it to you?
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: JP on 17/01/2011 00:43:27
All the information from a pulse arrives when you detect that a pulse has been turned on.  Put another way, it's the it's when you know the shape of the incoming pulse from the amount of light you've received. 

For a more rigorous definition, all the information is contained in the points of non-analyticity of a pulse, and arrives when those points arrive.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 17/01/2011 14:26:49
I would have been wrong anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_velocity

States that its not a violation of SR nor is it to be assumed information can travel this fast.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: JP on 17/01/2011 15:41:15
True, but phase velocity is different from group velocity.  (Neither carries information faster than light, however.)

Tunneling is the one possibility as far as I know, and it doesn't seem likely to be able to do so.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: QuantumClue on 17/01/2011 15:47:21
Yes, I understand that.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: SkyWriting on 18/01/2011 09:23:45
By the way, Quantumclue also mentions Fred Allan Wolf.  I would recommend taking anything from Dr. Wolf with a large dose of skepticism.  He's a big proponent of quantum pseudoscience and publishes a lot of books that are very poorly regarded by mainstream science.

My experience with "Wolf" leads me to the conclusion that he's not well adjusted. Logically anyway.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: SkyWriting on 18/01/2011 09:32:18
True, but phase velocity is different from group velocity.  (Neither carries information faster than light, however.)
Tunneling is the one possibility as far as I know, and it doesn't seem likely to be able to do so.

The most likely solution is that entanglement verifies that observation changes reality. 
Then the information need not "exceed" the speed of light because the "destination" or outcome changes based on the observation of one of the two entangled particles.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: lightarrow on 18/01/2011 14:22:07
For a more rigorous definition, all the information is contained in the points of non-analyticity of a pulse, and arrives when those points arrive.
This is interesting, do you have any link or some more about it?
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: JP on 18/01/2011 14:45:53
Hmm... I can point you to some work on it, but I don't have any papers handy.

Kurt Oughstun's (http://www.cems.uvm.edu/~oughstun/) thesis work involved looking at the leading edge of pulses and seeing how fast they moved through media--the result is that at least a tiny piece of the very front of the pulse moves at the speed of light through any medium, and that piece carries information.  Dan Gauthier at Duke University also did some work on this.  I think some of it is in his paper in Nature: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v425/n6959/full/nature02016.html. 
I recall a talk of his where he showed that if you encoded bits of information by turning a signal on and off, the best you could do at detecting those on/off bits was the speed of light, even if the group velocity was superluminal.

As for analytic functions, the wiki has a nice article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_function), as do most advanced books on complex analysis.  The take home point from analytic functions is that you only need an infinitesimally small piece of the signal (in theory) to reconstruct the entire thing, so the leading edge of the pulse should carry all the pulse's information, and the above research seems to show that's limited to the speed of light.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: yor_on on 21/01/2011 15:27:24
The problem for me is the assumption that we have a indeterminate state before the measurement. If there is one it all makes sense, but what if there isn't. What if the state was set at the beam splitter for example? How would one disprove such a statement? It all depends on how you look at a 'interaction'. The definition we seem to use is that a 'interaction' only becomes one in our measuring, excluding most of what's happening outside our measuring.

If that is wrong, then an interaction is whatever change a relation for whatever we later will be measuring, including those 'interactions' untouched by us.
==

Or you will have to assume two 'states'. One 'changeable' like a beam splitter and one 'defining' it finally, aka our 'measurement'.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Airthumbs on 31/01/2011 20:29:21
Ok help me here please, so two little entangled particles get sent away to some measuring devices.  One is told to spin to the right, and as a result the other spins to the left? yes or no.....



Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: Geezer on 31/01/2011 21:00:44
Ok help me here please, so two little entangled particles get sent away to some measuring devices.  One is told to spin to the right, and as a result the other spins to the left? yes or no.....


Well, kinda! [;D]

I don't think it gets "told", so you can't know in advance its direction. But whatever way it was, its chum does the opposite (apparently at the same time!) That's why Einstein called it "spooky".

(BTW - I'm sure I have some of the details wrong here, so please don't "but Geezer said" me.)
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: yor_on on 31/01/2011 23:00:25
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwpcontent.answcdn.com%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F1%2F1f%2FBeamsplitter-1.png%2F250px-Beamsplitter-1.png&hash=ff2c1103fc019c9108845939a12dc3c7)

You take two prisms, similar to those inside a pair of binoculars, glue them together, and then send a short laser pulse through the prism cube you've made, so that half of the light is reflected. Or you can use a half transparent mirror, separating the light pulse into two, one reflected back, its other part passing through. This down-convert the 'photon' into half its energy at the same time as it creates two particles from one, exactly the same but, as I understands it, now of oposite spin. There are also polarizing beam splitters that do the same using polarization instead. As I understands it a photons polarization is just another description of its spin, although I'm not a hundred percent sure on that one, it seems to differ in the amount of 'states' a photons spin can have (3) as compared to the polarizations (2)?

I believe that they are the same though, in that a photon only have two degrees of freedom in reality, disallowing one of the spins, whereas in theory particles of spin 1 should have three. the explanation to that is that even though 'point particles' have three states of freedom (dimensions), as the photon is massless it only have two states left. All Bosons, meaning particles without 'rest-mass' comes in whole integers, photons for example are of spin 1. 


"Theory predicts the existence of two bosons whose s differs from 1. The force carrier for gravity is the hypothetical graviton; theory suggests that it has s=2. The Higgs mechanism predicts that elementary particles acquire nonzero rest mass by exchanging hypothetical Higgs bosons with an all-pervasive Higgs field. Theory predicts that the Higgs boson has s=0. If so, it would be the only elementary particle for which this is the case." And "QFT (Quantum field theory) defines the s_{z} = 0-state to corresponds to a non-physical degree of freedom. Such photons will exhibit a negative probability-distribution. The reason for these troubles are the fact that a photon has zero-restmass."

Now, all particles of matter, also called fermions, have a half-integer spin. All known elementary fermions have spin ½, including protons, neutrons, electrons, and quarks.

But it's confusing all the same.
I'm sure JP could answer that one though :)

(Phieww, had to rearrange it as my comments suddenly made very little sense, after me filling the material in, not that unusual even when such non-withstanding I have to admit:)

==Quote

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwapedia.mobi%2Fthumb%2F3ad1500%2Fen%2Ffixed%2F350%2F178%2FSpin-physics-w.jpg%3Fformat%3Djpg&hash=92716bcb7830f2951143fd8fb22d8c50)

The head-on collision of a quark (the red ball) from one proton (the orange ball) with a gluon (the green ball) from another proton with opposite spin; spin is represented by the blue arrows circling the protons and the quark. The blue question marks circling the gluon represent the question: Are gluons polarized? The particles ejected from the collision are a shower of quarks and one photon of light (the purple ball).

===End of quote.

Okay, with the risk to bore you physics savvy to death :) Let's dive into what spin is, as I understands it :) First of all you need to consider a vector, or a 'angular momentum'. All angular movements can be considered as being of two 'forces', working together on whatever there is, creating that 'invisible angle' of momentum/force. Like this. 2 forces shown  | _    That then will produce a combined angular, 'invisible force', working inbetween those two. Can you see how I mean? Think of them as two leashes leading down to your dog. The dog (Sebastian) will feel it as one leash diagonally stretched between the two actual leashes if the same restraint is applied to both leashes.

(Da*n those two-legged bas*s he growls as he tries to get up to speed:)

Spin is a similar idea.

" Angular momentum is a vector quantity (something that has both a magnitude and a direction, just like a velocity) that can take on only certain values in quantum mechanics. Another thing we know about angular momentum is that, in quantum mechanics, it cannot take on just any old values, but only certain specific ones.  If a particle has three units of total angular momentum, then its projection can be any of (-3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3) and that is it: projections must differ by an integer number of units. 

Very weird, but quite a handy fact: if you know that a particle's angular momentum can take on only two different projection values, then you know its total angular momentum must be 1/2, and the projection values are (-1/2, 1/2).  If you know there are three projection values, then you know the total angular momentum is 1, with projections (-1, 0, 1). Spin acts like this, so everything you've just learned about angular momentum is also true of spin."

And

"A particle with integral spin (0,1,2,...) is not in any way limited by other
particles of its own kind.  At one location, you can have a huge number with
exactly the same energy, moving in exactly the same way.  Photons of light,
neutrinos, and pions are such particles.  These tend to be the communication
particles, the particles that spend most of their time passing between
things.  These are called Bose-Einstein particles, or bosons for short.

A particle with half-integral spin (1/2,3/2,5/2,...) is very limited by
other particles of its own kind.  If two such particles are at the same
location, something must be different about them.  They may be "spinning" in
different directions.  They may have different energies.  They may be moving
in different directions.  They cannot be identical in all ways.  Protons,
neutrons and electrons are the most common such particles.  These tend to be
the particles that build matter.  These are called Fermi-Dirac particles, or
fermions for short"

"In 1924 Wolfgang Pauli introduced what he called a "two-valued quantum degree of freedom" associated with the electron in the outermost shell. This allowed him to formulate the Pauli exclusion principle, stating that no two electrons can share the same quantum state at the same time. The physical interpretation of Pauli's "degree of freedom" was initially unknown. Ralph Kronig, one of Landé's assistants, suggested in early 1925 that it was produced by the self-rotation of the electron. When Pauli heard about the idea, he criticized it severely, noting that the electron's hypothetical surface would have to be moving faster than the speed of light in order for it to rotate quickly enough to produce the necessary angular momentum. This would violate the theory of relativity."
 
"Inspired by the photon picture of light waves, Bose was interested deriving Planck's radiation formula, which Planck obtained largely by guessing. Using the particle picture of Einstein, Bose was able to derive the radiation formula by systematically developing a statistics of massless particles without the constraint of particle number conservation. He was quite successful, but was not able to publish his work, because no journals in Europe would accept his paper... in 1926, Einstein completed the Bose-Einstein statistics by extending Bose's work to the case of massive particles with particle-number conservation.

The Bose-Einstein statistics was not completely without troubles, because not all the particles obey this statistics. It was Paul A. M. Dirac who found out that the Bose-Einstein system particles are totally symmetric under permutation of particles. This observation of course led to the Fermi-Dirac statistics. It is interesting to note how intensely Dirac was interested in permutations from his book entitled "Principles of Quantum Mechanics."

Let us go back to the photon statistics formula derived by Bose. There is a factor "2" sitting on the numerator of this formula. The usual explanation is that it is because photons are massless particles. Then why not 1 or 3 ? Bose argued that the photon can have two degenerate states. This eventually led to the concept of photon spin parallel or anti-parallel to the momentum.

The question of why the photon spin should be only along the direction of momentum has a stormy history. Eugene Wigner (1939) showed that the internal space-time symmetry of massless particles is isomorphic to the symmetry of two-dimensional Euclidean space consisting of one rotation and two translational degrees of freedom. It is not difficult to associate the rotational degree with the photon spin either parallel or anti-parallel to the momentum, but what physics is associated with the translational degrees of freedom. These translational degrees were later identified as gauge transformations. This does not solve the whole problem because there is one gauge degree of freedom while there are two translational degrees of freedom. How do they collapse into the one gauge degree of freedom? This problem was not completely solved until 1990."

"If/when electrons decide to share a single orbital, we get pairs (as opposed to, say, triplets) because the electrons have total spin s=½ so there are two possible spin projections sz={−½ or +½}.

If electrons had total spin s=1 then there would be three possible spin projections sz={−1, 0, or +1} ... and you would find orbitals with three electrons in them. You can’t occupy a given orbital more times than are allowed by the spin multiplicity because of the (Pauli) exclusion principle.")

"In 1922 the Dutch physicists Otto Stern and Walther Gerlach made a discovery remarkably similar to that of Erasmus Bartholin, but instead of light rays their discovery involved the trajectories of elementary particles of matter. They passed a beam of particles (atoms of silver) through an oriented magnetic field, and found that the beam split into two beams, with about half the particles in each beam, one deflected up (relative to the direction of the magnetic field) and the other down."

And the reason they did so came to be known as their 'spin'." One outcome of quantum field theory was a quantization of the electromagnetic field, the necessity of which had been pointed out by Einstein as early as 1905. On an elementary level, Maxwell’s equations are inadequate to describe the phenomena of radiation. The quantum of electromagnetic radiation is called the photon, which behaves in some ways like an elementary particle, although it is massless, and therefore always propagates at the speed of light. Hence the "spin axis" of a photon is always parallel to its direction of motion, pointing either forward or backward"

Some from here. (http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s9-04/9-04.htm) but it's my own mix I'm afraid. Hope you could make some sense from it.
Title: What is the maximum speed of information?
Post by: yor_on on 31/01/2011 23:37:48
And when it comes to phase or group velocity enabling 'FTL information' I have this very nice quote.

------------On 12-May-2006 by Guest_carbonlife------------------------


Whenever you see the words "faster than light", you should ask two questions:

Q1: Are they talking about the speed of light in a VACUUM?

A1: No, they're usually talking about the speed of light in some sort of material like glass, which is typically a third slower than light in a vacuum. The speed of light in a vacuum is the real speed limit.

Q2: Are they talking about phase velocity or group velocity? If the article doesn't say, then either the reporter didn't ask the right questions, or the researcher is trying to mislead investors.

Group velocity (q.v.) is the speed of an actual information-pulse, when you factor out reflections and stray ripples.

Phase velocity (q.v.) is an illusory movement of wavelets which SEEM to move faster than light, but actually don't. You can see an example of this at the front of a moving row-boat traveling faster than its own wake. The wake falls behind the boat on either side -- that's the group velocity. If you 'send a signal' by throwing a pebble in the water, the ripples fall behind the boat -- again, group velocity -- the speed of an information-carrying wave in water.

But if you look at the bow wave, you see wavelets that SEEM to be traveling faster than the larger wave they're part of. They appear at the back of the bow wave, move quickly to the front, and disappear. These are phase-velocity waves, and their high velocity is illusory. They don't carry information, because they don't appear until an information-carrying wave has already moved past, and disappear when they reach the front of the msin wave.

Most materials have a constant index of refraction, which tells you how much light slows down in that medium ( Snell's Law of refraction ). In a 'tricky' medium, the index of refraction can be shifted up or down using laser pulses, or can even be made negative. The catch is that the laser pulse which performs the trick are themselves traveling slower than light in a vacuum, so none of the ripple effects behind them can carry information faster than the causative wave -- what you get is a 'bow wave' with some phase-velocity ripples running around inside it.


However there are always a few reporters who like to play with people's heads, by not explaining group velocity vs. phase velocity, and by playing with words so it sounds like somebody is doing FTL research. Again, general relativity only prohibits transfer of information faster than light in a vacuum. Quantum mechanics has a similar principle called the No-Communication Theorem -- which merely says that although quantum-entangled particles can 'agree' at a distance, they can't carry usable information. If you send one entangled particle to Alpha Centauri and measure the other one, the two particles will will 'agree' ( e.g. if one is spin up, then the other is spin-down. But since the measurement at Centauri comes out completely random, you still have to wait 4.2 years to compare results by radio, in order to 'decode' the information.

Every physics student has thought "there's gotta be a way...", and has eventually realized [often by trying it] that the 'usual tricks' don't work. "


-------------On 12-May-2006 by Guest_carbonlife------------------------------

Better add this too.

"The group velocity of a wave (e.g. a light beam) may also exceed c  in some circumstances. In such cases, which typically at the same time involve rapid attenuation of the intensity, the maximum of the envelope of a pulse may travel with a velocity above c. However, even this situation does not imply the propagation of signals with a velocity above c, even though one may be tempted to associate pulse maxima with signals.

The latter association has been shown to be misleading, basically because the information on the arrival of a pulse can be obtained before the pulse maximum arrives. For example, if some mechanism allows the full transmission of the leading part of a pulse while strongly attenuating the pulse maximum and everything behind (distortion), the pulse maximum is effectively shifted forward in time, while the information on the pulse does not come faster than c without this effect....

If the wave is travelling through an absorptive medium, this does not always hold. Since the 1980s, various experiments have verified that it is possible for the group velocity of laser light pulses sent through specially prepared materials to significantly exceed the speed of light in vacuum.

(Eh sorry. The guy must have meant the speed of light for that specific 'medium', not faster than in a vacuum. A lot of physicists seems to define the speed of light as always being 'c', but 'c' regulated by what medium it propagates in. Da*n, and that one is taken from the 'Group velocity wiki' too? Kind'a embarrassing that one. Well rest assured that there exist no materials allowing a speed faster than the one one expected for light in a vacuum, as far as I know :)

However, superluminal communication  is not possible in this case, since the signal velocity remains less than the speed of light. It is also possible to reduce the group velocity to zero, stopping the pulse, or have negative group velocity, making the pulse appear to propagate backwards.

However, in all these cases, photons continue to propagate at the expected speed of light in the medium... Anomalous dispersion happens in areas of rapid spectral variation with respect to the refractive index. Materials that exhibit large anomalous dispersion allow the group velocity of the light to exceed c and/or become negative."