Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: common_sense_seeker on 01/05/2009 11:07:23
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The idea of gravity hills http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_hill continually captures the public imagination. If there is a gravity hill near you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_magnetic_hills, then you can perform this relatively simple experiment to show by the use of two spirit levels that the gravity anomaly effect is in fact real. Set-up one spirit level to the horizontal at the best site on the hill where the effect can be experienced. Set-up the other spirit level a great distance away from the hill, but picking a spot that it still can be seen when viewed with the powerful zoom of a quality camera. With the zoom and stability of the high quality camera the difference in the angle of the two levels should now be apparent.
Publicise your findings and hope to get enough interest to warrant an excavation of the hill to reveal a new super-dense material of meteoritic origin.
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It might be difficult to search an area using the set-up you describe. You would have to suspect that a certain place might be a gravity hill. Then you would need to know of another place that was not of the same incline. [:)]
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My discussion forum is: www.youforum.co.uk/believersingravityshielding
There does not appear to be any discussion on your discussion forum, or for that matter, anything to disucss. Could you explain?
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It might be difficult to search an area using the set-up you describe. You would have to suspect that a certain place might be a gravity hill. Then you would need to know of another place that was not of the same incline. [:)]
The idea is that the effect disappears from the distance of a long road distance away. If you read the accounts of people who have experienced these effects, then it is quite interesting. (Taxi drivers who scare foreign visitors in the Isle of Man for example, by taking of the handbrake and allowing the car to roll uphill).
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Optical illusions are very common throughout our lives. That is nothing to do with Physics.
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A gravity hill detector that could find a real gravitational anomaly (not just an illusion) would be an interesting device. It might signal deposits of ore. But I don't see how two levels separated by a distance could be practical. You would be interested in the relative angles between the two levels, and the difference would be very slight.
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A Worden gravimeter would detect anomalies of the magnitude necessary to generate something on the scale of these illusions.
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It would only take one of many hundred sites to be real to change the world for ever. It's an exciting possibility and would be absolutely amazing to have a ball of 'exotic' matter being televised. You never know.
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It would only take one of many hundred sites to be real to change the world for ever.
Yet you have zero evidence that any of the hundreds of sites are real and there is a ton of evidence that many of them (most of them, all of them) are mere illusions.
Revel in the amusement and amazement they provide. Stop looking for non-existent phenomena.
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The only hill that would impress me would be one which was downhill whichever direction you were going in. That would be a real anomaly.
(And I don't mean what you get when standing at the top!)
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If you're the one with all the answers, why don't you explain the Paradox Of A Blackhole Eclipse? Is there gravity shielding when one blackhole obscures another? If not, then why not?
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Surely this isn't a paradox? It's a question to which we do not know the answer.
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It would only take one of many hundred sites to be real to change the world for ever.
Yet you have zero evidence that any of the hundreds of sites are real and there is a ton of evidence that many of them (most of them, all of them) are mere illusions.
Revel in the amusement and amazement they provide. Stop looking for non-existent phenomena.
We know that there are gravitational anomalies that are not illusions. They are caused by materials of different density close to the surface. But the difference is very small and would not be noticed without sensitive instrumentation.
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Surely this isn't a paradox? It's a question to which we do not know the answer.
It should be considered a very IMPORTANT question then. If the answer turns out to be that there is 'gravity shielding' taking place then this then makes the possibility of 'cold matter' at the center of the sun much more likely! The 'missing mass' problem would at least be partially solved!
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I can measure the effect of gravity on the eath's surface - for example with a grandfather clock.
I can do this at different altitudes and I can also measure the effect of the eath's gravity out in space by watching the paths of satellites.
On the ground there is a lot of stuff between the clock and the centre of the earth. In space there's the same ground and a lot of nothjing.
Comparing these data should show up any effect of gravity shielding by "stuff" (like the earth), comppared to vacuum (like space). If there's a sheilding effect then the inverse square law shouldn't work.
Since no such effect has ever been noted it's fair to say that gravity sheilding either doesn't exist, or is very small.
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I can measure the effect of gravity on the eath's surface - for example with a grandfather clock.
I can do this at different altitudes and I can also measure the effect of the eath's gravity out in space by watching the paths of satellites.
On the ground there is a lot of stuff between the clock and the centre of the earth. In space there's the same ground and a lot of nothjing.
Comparing these data should show up any effect of gravity shielding by "stuff" (like the earth), comppared to vacuum (like space). If there's a sheilding effect then the inverse square law shouldn't work.
Since no such effect has ever been noted it's fair to say that gravity sheilding either doesn't exist, or is very small.
Thank you for stating this simple assessment, Bored Chemist. Everyday matter is mostly empty space, that is why it's gravity shielding effect is negligable. Maximum density matter is a different proposition. It is possible for there to be COLD MATTER at the center of the sun. This has the possiblity of solving the 'missing mass' problem. There are two scientists that I know of who share this opinion; Xavier Borg and Stan Byers. It isn't just me.
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It would only take one of many hundred sites to be real to change the world for ever.
Yet you have zero evidence that any of the hundreds of sites are real and there is a ton of evidence that many of them (most of them, all of them) are mere illusions.
Revel in the amusement and amazement they provide. Stop looking for non-existent phenomena.
We know that there are gravitational anomalies that are not illusions. They are caused by materials of different density close to the surface. But the difference is very small and would not be noticed without sensitive instrumentation.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. A primary technique of geophysical surveying is to measure the local value of g. This reveals, as you say, anomalies. But also, as you say, these anomalies are not detectable without sensitive instruments. Therefore there is no similarity between these large scale illusions and the small scale realities.
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It would only take one of many hundred sites to be real to change the world for ever.
Yet you have zero evidence that any of the hundreds of sites are real and there is a ton of evidence that many of them (most of them, all of them) are mere illusions.
Revel in the amusement and amazement they provide. Stop looking for non-existent phenomena.
We know that there are gravitational anomalies that are not illusions. They are caused by materials of different density close to the surface. But the difference is very small and would not be noticed without sensitive instrumentation.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. A primary technique of geophysical surveying is to measure the local value of g. This reveals, as you say, anomalies. But also, as you say, these anomalies are not detectable without sensitive instruments. Therefore there is no similarity between these large scale illusions and the small scale realities.
My point is that mainstream science hasn't taken this possibility seriously enough. It will only happen when the gravity problem is shown to be real, either via the GOCE satellite http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMZ8TJTYRF_index_0.html or The Deep Space Gravity Explorer which is being used to test GR: http://moriond.in2p3.fr/J07/trans/wednesday/reynaud.pdf.
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OK then, we just have to wait for those results.
BTW, when they don't show the effect that you seem to expect what are you going to do?
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OK then, we just have to wait for those results.
BTW, when they don't show the effect that you seem to expect what are you going to do?
It's the pioneer gravity anomaly which will show that a modification to Newtonian dynamics is required. Then people will take the idea seriously. I'm not saying it's for definite, just that they all need to be thoroughly checked.
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Feel free to check them, then get back to us.
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"Mainstream Science" has failed us all yet again. I wonder why they bother. Could be something to do with life being too short for the Establishment to investigate everything?
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It's the pioneer gravity anomaly which will show that a modification to Newtonian dynamics is required. Then people will take the idea seriously. I'm not saying it's for definite, just that they all need to be thoroughly checked.
A quick search of the SAO/NASA Astrophysics Data System for 'pioneer anaomaly' returns 182 papers with titles such as: Gravity Tests in the Solar System and the Pioneer Anomaly; The Pioneer anomaly in the context of the braneworld scenario; Pioneer anomaly and the Kuiper Belt mass distribution; Finding the origin of the Pioneer anomaly; Search for a Standard Explanation of the Pioneer Anomaly; Modelling the Pioneer anomaly as modified inertia; Field-theoretical formulations of MOND-like gravity; and so on for a further 175 research papers.
Can you continue to contend that this issue is not being taken seriously?
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This thread seems to be discussing and associating two entirely separate things. 'Gravity Hills', where the apparent 'levelness' is not consistent, is just due to a localised mass of rock with higher than average density. In the 18ty century (I seem to remember hearing), a surveyor used surveys of a mountain in Scotland to determine G by estimating its mass and measuring the displacement of a plumb line when he put it close to the mountain. I believe he got G a bit 'on the low side' but later examination of his results suggested that, if he had taken into account the effect of some nearby mountains, he's have been about spot on. Nothing magical or unconventional and the Pioneer anomaly needn't come into it.
The pioneer anomaly is something entirely different - and, I'd suggest, several orders of magnitude away from a simple gravitational anomaly. That is an interesting topic and there are a lot of 'real Scientists' scratching their heads about it. I don't quite see what is the justification for the complaints I'm reading here.
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'Gravity Hills', where the apparent 'levelness' is not consistent, is just due to a localised mass of rock with higher than average density. In the 18ty century (I seem to remember hearing), a surveyor used surveys of a mountain in Scotland to determine G by estimating its mass and measuring the displacement of a plumb line when he put it close to the mountain.
The gravity measurments were made on Schiehallion, chosen because it is a reasonably symmetrical mountain and thus its volume could be failry easily calculated.
Gravity hills have absolutely nothing to do with this, however, but are purely an optical illusion.
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And nothing to do with the Pioneer anomaly.