Naked Science Forum
General Science => General Science => Topic started by: neilep on 27/02/2004 18:25:09
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[?]...I've been pondering....as I do when I spend most the night awake as to what the potential of my brain is !!..Most people I know would say I reached my brains capacity many years ago when I finsihed nursery school/kindergarten !!![:D]....but I know our neurons store familiar images, places, family, friends, events, sounds, tastes and smells etc etc as chemical changes in brain cells. Now, last time I opened up my head and looked inside I found more neurons than I could count, even more than my fingers and toes put together !!![;)]...so, my question (finally eh ?) is how many neurons does my brain have...I realise it's an enormous number and that there is no danger of my using them all before I quit the Earth...but a guestimate from all you wonderful people would put my mind at ease. Ta
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
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well, humans only use approx 10% of brain as adults! Don't know exactly how many neurons, just know that most of them are unused!
"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe
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Yes, most humans only used the top few cms of cerebrum called the cerebral cortex. I saw a program about a women who has a massive hole in the centre of her brain and yet her brain work just as well as normal people. Actually, her IQ is above the average!
Angel
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I've always been sceptical of IQ tests- i don't think it manages to measure your intelligence accurately; but just measures how good you are at taking IQ tests.
For example, one of my friends has a below average IQ (91), yet is very intelligent (but is crap at IQ tests). And the guy with the highest IQ (155) is coming middle of the class and not top (in my college at uni).
However you're right about only certain sections of the brain being used. I've heard that people who are born with certain underdeveloped/maldeveloped areas of their brain show brain activity in other sections of brain which normal people don't use, and can be exceptionally gifted at doing certain things due to using other areas of the brain!
"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe
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Thanks Angel , thanks Qi Pan,
I'm certainly aware that we only use a minority percentage of our brain matter, perhaps the other 90% is for suspension or for shock absorption !!....(errr...I'm joking there).....and I certainly agree about the validity of IQ tests (not that i'm being defensive cos I've never taken one before).....I just see IQ tests as indicators of how good people are at taking IQ tests :-)....thanks though, seems I'm gonna have to spend all night counting my neurons again!!!
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
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IQ tests are only as smart as the people who create them.
I think we use the other 90% of our brains too...we just don't know how or for what.
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I understand that about 40% of our brain is used for our vision. Our eyes start deteriorating from the time we are born, but our brain compensates and continues to show us clear, coloured vision until you have to use external correction. I've also noticed that people in more "brain draining" type jobs tend to need glasses earlier than people in other fields (vision defects excluded, of course), I guess because they use a larger portion of their brain for other things.
Balance and hearing also use a fair portion of the brain.
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Between the skull and the cerebrum there is a membrane called meninges (hence the disease meningitis) and between the meninges and cerebrum there is the cerebral fluid, this is where the shock absorption and suspension come in.
Angel
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Thanks Angel,
Next time my head goes in for it's annual service I'll get it upgraded to sports suspension and shock absorption !!..that 'll help when I bang my head against the wall in the middle of the night!!
Roberth, regarding 'brain draining' type jobs leading to earlier needs for glasses, that's a very interesting observation...I wonder if there's any studies to validate that.
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
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Neilep, I'm sure that gazing at a computer screen all day is bad for your eyes, so any studies done these days would be a bit skewed towards people needing glasses earlier anyway, no matter what their occupation. It would be an interesting hypothesis to try and prove, though. Currently, it's just something I've noticed.
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Someone told me that becoming more nearsighted is sort of an evolutionary adjustment, as our society becomes more cerebral and does more office work that requires a greater need for near vision. Also said that people's heads are becoming larger, and that we are losing our wisdom teeth, in that more and more people are born without any wisdom teeth.
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According to several doctors I've talked to, the reason people in "brain drain" type office jobs need glasses more often is that when the eyes have to stay focused up close for long periods of time they lose their elasticity and cannot focus at a distance. The eye muscles have to contract to focus close and relax to focus at a distance, assuming no defects in the shape of the eye.
I fell into this trap in graduate school - I studied so much that I ended up not being able to read street signs. The optometrist I went to prescribed fairly strong reading glasses and fairly weak distance correction (in bi-focals) to make my eyes work at focusing on distance. It worked. Now I can see distance (about 20/15) and up close (20/20), but I wear reading glasses to read and work the computer to keep my eyes focused in distance.
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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Nancy...I definitely agree with you regarding the evolutionary adjustment, I've heard exactly the same about Wisdom teeth too, it's like witnessing evolution 'while you wait'.
John, are you saying that the bifocals reversed the lack of elasticity that happened to your eyes and that you no longer need them except your reading glasses ?....just curious that's all.
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
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I have no wisdom teeth [:D] although both my parents do. In fact my mother has supernumerary teeth, and had several whole sets of teeth removed when she was younger. Exactly how do the genetics work for that?
wOw the world spins?
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quote:
Originally posted by qpan
I've always been sceptical of IQ tests- i don't think it manages to measure your intelligence accurately; but just measures how good you are at taking IQ tests.
That's something I remember my dad saying to me when I was happy I got 135 or something on an IQ test and it deflated me :-( he also said well if you're happy that you're good at IQ tests, then good for you, but they don't really mean anything.... :-(
Speaking of wisdom teeth, mine started coming through a few months ago and it hurt like crazy when I ate :( I don't have to get the top ones removed since I had two teeth removed up there when I got my braces :) People say it hurts to have them removed though :( Can someone tell me if it hurts more than having other teeth removed (a bloody lot even with local anethetic :( ) or less?
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Hi Erin (neil here)...i just asked my friend who had his wisdom teeth taken out under a local anaesthetic and he assures me that in his case, he felt no pain at all...but I suppose each case has to be taken into consideration via it's own merits...I wish you luck...and that's the tooth !!!.....*crumps into a heap from citing a bad joke*
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
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I think the only limitation to the vast amount of information that you can take in that you can only take in serially and not in parallel.
An ounce of perception
A pound of obscure
Process information at half speed
Pause, rewind, replay
Warm memory chip
Random sample, hold the one you need
RUSH, Moving Pictures - Vital Signs
[^]
Stephen Firestone
Klaatu Verada Nikto
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I've had several teeth removed (prior to braces - to make room) and when it cam to the wisdom teeth, I had them done under general anastesthetic. It was well worth it. Of course I would rather have a filling done without any anastesthetic than to have the shot in my mouth. I've had several fillings "live" by the way.
I think it depends heavily on your particular wisdom teeth and your situation how bad they will hurt. Talk to your dentist.
And, yes Neil, the bifocals did reverse my eyesight problems (along with better long term viewing habits and a year of not working on computers). Now I don't need glasses for anything, but if I read for a long period of time I notice it takes a little extra time to adjust out to distant objects. So, I wear reading glasses (Foster Grant) when I'm working or reading.
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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Okay I see. Doesn't sound like it'll be that bad then.
Philippe told me his wisdow teeth on the bottom grew in sideways !!! I don't know how. He can't be bothered to go through the bother of going to the hospital and getting them removed so he still has them.... isn't that weird ! (that they grew in sideways I mean)
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Teeth growing in sidewards means they're impacted and generally need to come out. His teeth may not bother him now, but if he's getting increased headaches, that could be the reason. This is something that can be done in the office. The hardest part is holding your mouth open for a long time. If the teeth are not fused to the bone, shouldn't be a big procedure, provided you find someone who knows what he's doing. And go to an oral surgeon -- not just a dentist.
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Oh ... I'll tell him in that case.
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quote:
Originally posted by Quantumcat
quote:
Originally posted by qpan
I've always been sceptical of IQ tests- i don't think it manages to measure your intelligence accurately; but just measures how good you are at taking IQ tests.
That's something I remember my dad saying to me when I was happy I got 135 or something on an IQ test and it deflated me :-( he also said well if you're happy that you're good at IQ tests, then good for you, but they don't really mean anything.... :-(
Speaking of wisdom teeth, mine started coming through a few months ago and it hurt like crazy when I ate :( I don't have to get the top ones removed since I had two teeth removed up there when I got my braces :) People say it hurts to have them removed though :( Can someone tell me if it hurts more than having other teeth removed (a bloody lot even with local anethetic :( ) or less?
Am I dead? Am I alive? I'm both!
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lol quantum- i got 136- beat u by 1!
"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe
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Hey Erin
I had a wisdom tooth out in the dentist chair and it was a breeze. I found it really funky being able to hear the crunching and the kind of feel the tuggin but not feel a darn thing otherwise! Other people say, no way only under general for me. But each to their own, depends on the root system or as bezoar said if they are fused to the bone. The part that sucks is when the anaesthetic wears off, then pain killers become your friend. Just becareful with those as well cos I found even after the pain had eased I was waking up at the sametime each night and couldn't sleep unless I had a painkiller thinking that I'd been woken up by the pain. Made sure I broke that habit nice and quickly!
Unfortunately the sametime I had my tooth out was when all my shoulder trouble started so I was taking some pain killers to try to ease that pain as well.
Tim
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Tim, which tooth was it? Did you have the tooth pulled before your shoulder trouble started? I have a book called Whole Body Dentistry that outlines how dental work affects your body, including neurological systems. I'd bet the tooth was in the upper right quadrant of your mouth and was either the wisdom tooth (1/18) or the 4th (5/14) or 5th (4/15)tooth from the front. For anyone who understands dentalese the numbers are shown in brackets.
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Give the woman a prize she's right!! Yes it was the upper right as for the numbers but yes the wisdom tooth. That sucker had some pretty intresting roots on it. And yes I had the tooth pulled around 11 on a Saturday morning and by about 8:30 to 9Pm that night was when I started having pain trouble with my shoulder. By about midnight I was at the stage where the pain was quite intense and I was feeling some pain in my left shoulder as well but to a lesser degree than the right.
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OldMan, I definitely agree that painkillers become your friend !!! maybe the anethetic wasn't as powerful as yours or something but while the dentist was pulling out the tooth i had a horrible gigantic ache all through my jaw .... I was so happy when he finally gave me the tooth in a little plastic bag. That's weird that you had shoulder trouble. The symptoms depend on the person, I suppose?
And gpan ... haha. Congrats.
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quote:
Originally posted by OldMan
Give the woman a prize she's right!! Yes it was the upper right as for the numbers but yes the wisdom tooth. That sucker had some pretty intresting roots on it. And yes I had the tooth pulled around 11 on a Saturday morning and by about 8:30 to 9Pm that night was when I started having pain trouble with my shoulder. By about midnight I was at the stage where the pain was quite intense and I was feeling some pain in my left shoulder as well but to a lesser degree than the right.
That's pretty scary that a tooth removal can do that sort of thing to you. I would think that's even a better reason to go to an oral surgeon and get it done right. But I suppose it would always carry a risk.
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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John, it's not neccessarily the quality of the dental work that creates the problem. What Tim is dealing with now is an energy meridian that's been unbalanced.
Tim, electro-dermal screening could help. I don't know much about it, but it's called EAV (Electro-acupuncture According to Voll - that's Dr. Reinhold Voll) or EDS (Electro Dermal Screening). If you can't find practitioners, then you might try acupuncture or reiki.
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Hi Donnah
Think you can try and explain to me what you mean by me having an unbalanced energy meridian?
My mum had a reiki session a few months back while she was staying with her mum and said it was really weird as the woman doing it was right in her head. She would make comments on things and mum would say how did you know I was just thinking that?
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Hi Tim, I'm going to quote from Whole Body Dentistry.
" Dr. Voll would have his patient hold a small brass cylinder in one hand. He would then touch the tip or the stylus to a specific acupuncture point. The cylinder would introduce a minute amount of electrical current, which would travel through the body to reach the stylus, thus forming a complete electrical circuit. The amount of skin resistence at the acupuncture site would then be recorded. Dr. Voll found that normal skin resistence over a healthy point is 100,000 Ohms...During 40 years of research, Dr. Voll actually documented an entire network of energetic pathways throughout the body, better known as energy meridians...We access these pathways via points on the skin where there are changes in the electrical resistance or the ability of the tissue to conduct electricity. A healthy pathway will be able to sustain a certain level of electron flow. Inflammation tends to foster increased activity in the cells, with all sorts of chemical reactions going on, creating a more active environment through which electrons can flow at a greater rate."
Relax Tim, it's a special gift when a Reiki practitioner (or anyone for that matter) can hear what's going on in your head. And a practitioner with the gift may only have that connection with certain people at certain times. I sometimes hear what people are thinking. I hear it like they had spoken. It rarely happens, and I haven't tried to learn about it since I have no great desire to know what's in someone else's head. My own is busy enough.
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Isn't passing extra electricity through your body a bad thing? O_O
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As far as wisdom teeth go, it doesn't do much good hearing from others how their procedure went as so much depends on the doctor, and exactly what state your teeth are in. Whether you can take the pain or not is one issue, but i TOTALLY recomend that (if you have insurance that will cover it or are butt-rich) that you go all the way under. My oral surgeon, when I had all 4 out, gave me N2O to make me less anxious about the IV needle, then put me all the way under, then gave me 7 shots of novacane while I was under, then gave me a perscription for Vicatin to take home. While I thought it was overkill before hand, he was quite insistant, and wow was i glad once the day came!!! For a kid who'd never even had a drink before at that point...WOW!!! that was the most fun day of my life...the stories I could tell you... I only wish that i had 4 more wisdom teeth!!! Donnah, is that book relatively easy to find?? I really want to read it. It kind of sounds like it crosses a couple fields of research that I considered going into at various points, but never pursued)
Cut me some slack I'm new around here!
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Getting back to the original question in this post... neil I have heard a specific # (or at least an estimate as its different in each person obviously). If I can find it when I go home I'll put it up here later just to ease your curiosity. As for brain function, we have to remember that our brain is one part of our body that we know relatively noting about. We estimate that we use ~10% of our brain, but thats just becaus ethats all that we know how to measure. While our knowledge of neurons is quite limited, we know virtually NOTHING about glial cells that compose the majority of brain cells. Many of you may have learned in school that glial cells are simply there to support the neurons, but in reality thats just all that we've been able to find out that they do. Evidence actually points twards them having MUCH higher functionality than that.
Cut me some slack I'm new around here!
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Thanks Justin me old Fly Fancier !!!....as soon as you can get that guestimate then that will be great. If we estimate that we only use 10%, then what's the other 90% for ?...or is it that we've only discovered what 10% of the brain does and have yet to discover the use of the other 90% ?...I realise you've partly answered it, but as a complete novice (me that is)...I would have thought that surely we use all our brain don't we ?....or is the fact that my brain is not working right, is what is making me ask silly questions ?.....................Oh...I've just cut you some slack by the way and it's flipping and flopping all over my desk... :-)
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
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flopping?? I don't get it?? Is this a cultural language barrier? or am i just being as dense as I was about the jewlery in the semen forum?? Ok, I'm on my way home to look up that neuron question (and to do my ironing). I just hope I still have the # sitting around somewhere (somewhere logical)
Cut me some slack I'm new around here!
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Well I'm back (so much for ironing clothes, man do I like to take long naps lately!!!)
Neil, I've got some good news and some bad news for you. Good news, I had a pretty good idea of where I had your magic number writen down in an old notebook (even down to the page), when I went home and dug that out I flipped right to it and there it was. Bad news, I forgot that I had gotten part of that notebook wet a while back and a lot of the notes on the bottom 1/8 of the page(s) had all blead off. Guess where your number was!
SO.... never to fear that wasn't my only option, I consulted my personal library (I was on a mission gal-dangit). Unfortuantely I did not find exactly what I was looking for, but here's the infor related to what you asked and what I was discussing earlier:
First of all the human nervous system (not brain, this is whole body, but hopefully you can estimate from there) has ~85 billion neurons. To illustrate how many this is the author (Grilly, David M. "Drugs and Human Behavior" p.54) shows through simple math if a person looses 100,000 neurons a day for 70 consecutive years they will still have 82 billion neaurons. CRAZY!
Getting back to what I was discussing earlier regarding how little we know about the brain: those glial cells that we know little to nothing about compose 91% of brain cells meaning only 9% of our brain cells are neurons. Now I remember that when I learned this wondering if THIS is what was meant when people say we only use 10% of our brain, but to the best of my understanding its not. So if you're going by the popular myth (as I like to call it) that we only use our neurons for thinking... that means we actually only use ~1% of our brain cells!!!
Now you may ask "why do we only study neurons? is there something inherant to them that makes us believe that thats where all the action happens?" nope. Glia are just too small to be studied easily, so up until recently the scientific community has simply ignored them in "hopes" that they serve no important function other than physical structure and support (even though they make up 91% OF OUR BRAIN!!)
Another point, that I was reminded of while researching this, that further illustrated our lack of understanding about the brain: Both neurons and glia are named and categorized by their appearance. If a researcher discovered a new type of glia that looked like a tooth brush, they were dubbed "tooth brush neurons" and categorized with all other neurons that resemble dental hygene products (this is a ficticious example, but does represent how rediculus the system is). Anyone who has studied much biology knows that especially on this small of a level, form does NOT neccesarily follow function. So we've really organized this stuff arbitrarily. This is in part due to history, but also part due to how little we know about our own brains.
Yikes there was a rant and a half about the ignorance of one of my favorite fields!
Hope that shed some light on your question though.
Cut me some slack I'm new around here!
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Justin you can get the book at www.WholeBodyDentistry.com
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wow, just glancing at the tabel of contents has me excited (other than seeing "introduction by Robert C. Atkins MD" that made me cringe).
And only $25 with shipping. If my recent ebay binge hadn't left me pathetically broke, the book would be in the mail to me right now. Guess I'll just have to wait until payday. Thanks though.
Cut me some slack I'm new around here!
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Thanks Just, (can i call you Just [?])......so I should stop counting them then and put me brain back where it lives.....just as well really....my fingers and toes were getting really fed up.....[:)]
Fascinating stuff though, and I appreciate your answer....albeit a bit brief[:D][:D][:D][:D]
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
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So is it possible that glia could function like neurons? And, is it once a glia, always a glia, or can a glia enlarge and become a neuron if the neuron servicing the area becomes destroyed? I would guess not, because then no one would ever have brain damage, but what's the function of the glial cells?
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I wouldn't think that a glia could become a neuron as they are completely different types of cells. I saw a study once that either ststed that they thought they had found neuro receptors on a glial cell, or they had found a glial cell (I can't remember which). But in either case its good evidence that they're there for more than just structure. I think the general hypothisis amongs people today who even give glia attention is that they function in someway that services the neurosystem in doing some of the things we don't fully understand about it yet. However they are very difficult to study given our technology at this point.
When 900 years you reach look as good you will not, hmm??
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Obviously, if there're so many of them, they must have a purpose. I didn't know that glial function was still unknown.
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ha this is funny, don't worry about it
i have been here longer yet you seem to be more advanced...
[size3]GOD BLESS YOU[/size3]
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I was just reading that glial cells supply nutrients & other chemicals to neurons, repair the brain after injury, and attack invading bacteria.
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Seems like they don't do such a good job. The brain injured patients and stroke patients might not agree with that. I hope they have some other function than that because those glials are falling down on the job.
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Quote: "well, humans only use approx 10% of brain as adults!"
A famous myth that seems not to be true. Check out this website to read more about it.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html
But I DO know if you ask my wife she'll agree I only use 10% of MY brain. [:D]
Crodley
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Seems like they don't do such a good job. The brain injured patients and stroke patients might not agree with that. I hope they have some other function than that because those glials are falling down on the job.
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Quote: "well, humans only use approx 10% of brain as adults!"
A famous myth that seems not to be true. Check out this website to read more about it.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html
But I DO know if you ask my wife she'll agree I only use 10% of MY brain. [:D]
Crodley