Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: Razor on 26/08/2005 15:26:54
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I find this question more appropriate for the people of this forum who dont believe in God, but,
Whether you believe in "The Man" or not, do you think there is such a place as Heaven and Hell?
Take into Consideration the facts of certain individuals who have comitted Mass Crimes over the past centuries and Milleniums.[}:)][}:)][}:)]
So, to clarify my question,
Do You Believe in Heaven and Hell?
P.S Try to be as Specific as possible when answering your question.
Oh and here's a gif. for you to enjoy
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mze.com%2Fheavensgates%2Fweb_logo.jpg&hash=26d5ea275dbd7008a7260f56f1703033)
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Xbox Live GamerTag: RazorXV7/ /RazorXV9
"If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of your life."
-Brooke Shields
"A verbal contract is not worth the paper it's written on."
-Samuel Goldwyn
"The private enterprise system indicates that some people have higher incomes than others."
-Gerry Brown
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No....I don't see the point in believing in an illogical irrational supernatural afterlife...and that's what I have to say about that.
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finstagiber.net%2Fsmiliesdotcom%2Fcontrib%2Ficw%2F003.gif&hash=f326f525e3f6c60d4ea3ecbb24d1df2a)Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finstagiber.net%2Fsmiliesdotcom%2Fcontrib%2Ficw%2F003.gif&hash=f326f525e3f6c60d4ea3ecbb24d1df2a)
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No, actually I don´t
[:P]
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Do any of you believe i souls?
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Xbox Live GamerTag: RazorXV7/ /RazorXV9
"If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of your life."
-Brooke Shields
"A verbal contract is not worth the paper it's written on."
-Samuel Goldwyn
"The private enterprise system indicates that some people have higher incomes than others."
-Gerry Brown
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no
[:P]
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So what do you think happens to evil people after thier death who have comitted Mass crimes, like Hitler.......or Bush?
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Xbox Live GamerTag: RazorXV7/ /RazorXV9
"If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of your life."
-Brooke Shields
"A verbal contract is not worth the paper it's written on."
-Samuel Goldwyn
"The private enterprise system indicates that some people have higher incomes than others."
-Gerry Brown
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quote:
Originally posted by Razor
So what do you think happens to evil people after thier death who have comitted Mass crimes, like Hitler.......or Bush?
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Xbox Live GamerTag: RazorXV7/ /RazorXV9
"If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of your life."
-Brooke Shields
"A verbal contract is not worth the paper it's written on."
-Samuel Goldwyn
"The private enterprise system indicates that some people have higher incomes than others."
-Gerry Brown
They just stay dead...like the rest of us !
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finstagiber.net%2Fsmiliesdotcom%2Fcontrib%2Ficw%2F003.gif&hash=f326f525e3f6c60d4ea3ecbb24d1df2a)Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finstagiber.net%2Fsmiliesdotcom%2Fcontrib%2Ficw%2F003.gif&hash=f326f525e3f6c60d4ea3ecbb24d1df2a)
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quote:
So what do you think happens to evil people after thier death who have comitted Mass crimes, like Hitler.......or Bush?
They become food for worms. Nature doesn´t discriminate between dead organisms. Their compounds will be degraded and used as material for other lifeforms.
[:P]
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Um, if you don't believe in a god, then there's no reaason at all to think the universe has any interest in people or whether they get what they deserve.
Dead people are just meat... if you leave meat about then nature has a habit of reconverting it back into proteins/nitrates/CO2. Same for Joe Stalin as for my grandparents.
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I am an atheist. Most people wrongly believe that an atheist is someone who does not believe in god and who has no faith.
This isn't true. My faith is in science. I believe in what I can see, hear, feel and touch.
I was told Santa, Tooth fairy and easter bunny were real but are they?
Can you prove that god exists? No but I can show u evidence that he doesn't exist. Look at all the pain and misery and suffering. Religious people always have an answer to defend god but its always a pathetic excuse for an answer.
If something good happens it's god's will if something bad happens he moves in mysterious ways.
There are hundreds of religions and all are different. Sp who is correct? Who has the correct god? My friend is Muslim and he was telling me about the Koran and to be honest a lot of it makes sense. I was angry at muslims after the bombings but my friend showed me the truth and now my temporary prejudice has been removed.
But to be honest I cannot believe that a god would allow people to suffer as they do. I do not believe that a god would allow "acts of god" to destroy and maim so many people.
The church of england was created by henry the 8th so how can this be a real religion? How can god love us all if he kills and causes suffering?
I grew up in care without family and without parents, did god do that? What did he do about it?
Why did my father (a police officer) die so young when murderers and rapists (who were allegedly created by god) are allowed to live.
Why does cancer exist? God created it after all. Don't give me that crap about him giving us the ability to find a cure because he just shouldnt have created it in the first place.
So no I dont believe in God, God and religion is a crock of ****e and every single war that has ever been fought is over religion
Live long and Love life
Kevin Fisher
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I detect a certain tendency for Razor to stir the pot with quick and dirty questions. Comparing Hitler and Bush does show an anti-intellectual tendency.
Religion's contribution to mankind has often been as a tool to grab power and has little to do with the concept of a supreme being. The reason religion still has a place in our scientific world is that it helps people understand their lives, and the hardships they encounter.
Mana for the masses? For the most part maybe. But every once in a while you meet someone who is at peace with the universe and his fellow man. I have known several such men, and they all know God. And none of them have a tv or radio show. They live quiet lives, but through their understanding and compassion, they help others. One was a volenteer grief counciler at the Oklahoma bombing.
You want to believe in science, in atoms you cannot see, in magnetic forces, and strong forces, and weak forces, in gravity. My eyes still can't see much of those forces, only their effects. But my wife is sitting a few feet from me writing letters to family and friends. I can't touch her love, but I believe in it. And that belief changes the way I live my life. I think it is time to give her a hug.
David
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A scientist may believe that the scientific method is the best way of understanding the world, but that is pretty much where the belief stops. After that everything is hypothesies with varying amounts of evidence behind them.
There is a big diffence is thinking that the available evidence supports the hypothesis that there are things we call elections/magnetism/love and believing without evidence in a supernatural being...
I could see how religion can make lives easier, happier, more fullfilled and make society work better, however this is enirely independent of whether it is talking rubbish or not...
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We may not be able to see scientific phenomenon directly but we can see the effects of it. We can see indisputable evidence of it. We see gravity every day. What would your explanation be? God holds it together? We can see gravity working but not gravity itself. We can observe the effects of gravity.
Science provides many answers and in my opinion has all of the answers but we just haven't found them all yet and it takes time.
Religion is the same as witchcraft. Believed in by uneducated people who do not posess the ability to find the true answer. Do you believe in magic and witches? If I floated up in the air you would suspect a trick not that I was using the power of god to do it. You would call me crazy if I tried to claim I was lifted into the air by God.
It is impossible to prove a negative so I cannot prove to you that God doesn't exist but I can give you pages of evidence to support my argument. My strongest argument is that you cannot prove the existence of God. I can prove the existence of gravity and magnetism.
Nobody can address half of my arguments and religious types go off on one and start calling me closed minded and throw me out of their places of worship (places of worship are against god's will if you believe the bible!)
Live long and Love life
Kevin Fisher
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Kevin,
I know you have seen some hard things in your life. To me a mirical is when someone who is bitter, learns to find long lasting joy, and turns his life around.
We all seek for self fulfillment. Humanism is too much about the ME. Belief in a being wiser than us leads to humility, and awe. Some come to this though mathamatics, some come to it though just looking at the cosmos. The universe is huge, amazing, scary in its power, and very beautiful. Don't get lost in the details and miss the beauty.
David
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quote:
know you have seen some hard things in your life. To me a mirical is when someone who is bitter, learns to find long lasting joy, and turns his life around.
This may be the case but it has very little to do with supernatural personages with long beards...
Belief in certain species of religion can have some positive aspects for those who believe it, and for society, in the same way that father christmas makes kids happy and possibly better behaved. However this doesn't really relate to whether there is any evidence for it...
If there is no evidence all you are left with is belief, and belief without evidence is a very dangerous thing - the germans believed they were the master race, the crusaders believed they could get to heaven by killing muslims, Al Quaeda believes killing christians gets them to heaven...
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You can't proove that God exists, thats why you have faith. if you believe that is.
I'd like to think there was a hell, so those who murder others and commit suicide in order to get through those pearly gates will be denied entry and sent downstairs instead. I'd like to man those gates and see the look on their faces when told the bad news.
religion is supposed to be about tolerance. can't see much of that going on in many of the so-called religions of this world.
Muslims and Christians worship the same god. Jesus appears in the Koran. from what I can make out the only real differences are the way the stories are interpreted, and the fact that Christians worship Jesus as well as God, while Muslims only worship God alone. why the hell are they killing christians????? The UK census 2001 shows that most white british put their religion as christian, even though church attendance is low a lot of people still hold those values, even if they don't talk about them much.
As for souls, I do think that some people are born young and others are born old, there's a case for recycling of souls here. Is it Hindu's who believe in a certain number of reincarnations before you get to go to heaven? It is a mystery what the soul, and conciousness, is. I'm not convinced that the souls go anywhere in particular though. guess we'll all find out one day.
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No we won’t since we will be DEAD! I'm looking forward to it, no more anything. And my useless carcass might go into making pretty flowers or something!
wOw the world spins?
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quote:
If something good happens it's god's will if something bad happens he moves in mysterious ways.
At first when the world was created no bad things did happen. We had free will but Adam and Eve sinned because they had free will. That set the world on a downward spiral.
Maybe God made the disaster happen recently because of the fact that New Orleans was an incredibaly sinful place. It was.
Maybe it was a natural disaster and if we all prayed that it wouldn't happen then maybe it wouldnt. I suppose we couldn't do that though because we wouldnt know it was coming.
Bad things happen, not because God makes them happen but because we allow them to happen. It is our fault and we can stop them.
Sometimes he might make "bad" things happen for a reason.
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Why does cancer exist? God created it after all. Don't give me that crap about him giving us the ability to find a cure because he just shouldnt have created it in the first place.
Like I said before. There was a time when everything was perfect. There was no sickness or anything. Then we sinned. Sickness and pain came into the eqasion. It is our fault that there is cancer. Not God. If you pray for those who have cancer they can be healed.
The wife of the pastor of our church had severe breast cancer. She had lots of Kemo therapy etc. It wasnt going. Doctors said that they could not get rid of the cancer just try and surpress it. The whole church got together and prayed for her. Then a couple of days later she went back and the cancer had totally gone. She was fine!
You may say that why did God let her get cancer. I don't know why. Maybe because the church was drifting apart (which it was) and because of that incident everyone got closer and Cindy (pastor's wife) really started to value her life more.
Things happen for reasons. God does not make bad things happen. The devil does. He may let a bad thing happen for a good reason.
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http://www.simeonie.co.uk
Check it out. Click on the forums
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Thats pretty good about the pastors wife - hope she stays all clear.
The mind is pretty powerful when it comes to healing, those that really believe they will get better often do, maybe the knowledge that people are praying for them, and the belief that there is a god that can answer these prayers, is enough for the subconcious to make the body overcome the disease. or maybe god does exist and he's just answering the prayers.
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Well Razor, self sufficent phylosophies tend to be logical within their own structures. This includes mature religions.
Christianity teaches that there is a benefit to faith, and that, in my words, God will never provide a baseball bat that we can hit others over the head with and say "see, now you have to believe". So in order to promote faith, there will be no proof in this life.
Yea, I know, rotten deal, ducking out of scientific proof. But religion still remains a very personal thing. The founder of Christianity left three clues on how to decide if his teachings were for you: "By their fruits you shall know them" That rules out a lot of stuff that goes on in the name of religion, but in the same way, doesn't rule out a tree that has a few bad apples, but produces good people as a whole.
The second pariphased is "try it, you will like it". For that you have to have a religious culture that promotes a different life style that is personally more rewarding than the popular culture. And the third one is personal revelation with the aside of not casting your precious experiences before the unbelieving. So I don't talk much about that.
Perhaps you haven't heard these things in exactly this terminology before, but I think it is a good modern rendition, and poses problems for those of faith as well.
My faith encourages me to understand the universe, but at the same time suggests being sceptic when we get too proud of our knowledge. We often draw the wrong conclusion from facts in scientific circles, it can happen in religious circles as well. The old testiment suggests in english that God created heaven and earth. The old hebrew can be interperated that the Senior God (Elihom means God of Gods or supreme God in ancient hebrew) organized the skys and the planet. It is all in the way you interperate it.
Is there a race of beings in the universe older and wiser than us? Probabily would be the scientific answer. Have they communicated with the earth? That is a much harder question. Did they give us a gift of their wisdom? Is prayer part of that gift? Hard to say. Try to remain openminded, there is still so much we don't understand.
David
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the whole thing is open to interpretation. the bible (or the koran) wasn't written by God - its the work of men. I personally wouldn't follow something to the letter that was passed down verbally from generation to generation before it was written down at all, and then possibly in uncertain times where heresy was punishable by death (they may have written what was acceptable for the time, and not what was actually true) and then before it has been tranlated several times into languages that often don't have directly translatable words! its like getting charlie and the chocolate factory out of war and peace! (perhaps an exaggeration, but I hope you get the gist).i think religion has to be entirely personal because of this. if people who share an interpretation want to come together and be religious as a group, then great, but thats as far as organised religion should go in my opinion.
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NLJB, the third button in on your posts is an edit button. I keep MS Word up, paste my post into word and get most of my typos corrected. I agree that most religious people have a belief, but that is a sad thing to say.
Faith is a more difficult thing to achieve. You have faith in much of your science. You risk your life when you get into an airplane that it will actually fly. Those without understanding don't know that the risks are low. Those with beliefs in airplanes can change their minds in a hurry if someone suggests that the Aluminum wings flex as much as 20 feet on a commercial airliner and might fall off. But those who know aerodynamics, know what aerospace aluminum is capable of, climb right on board with out a worry. They have faith in their beliefs.
In another sense, if you were offered a seat on the space shuttle, you might take it, not that you believed that it is safe (it isn't), but that the reward of being one of the very few to be in space was worth the risk.
There are some with a faith in a way of life (religion or philosophy) that are willing to risk the dangers for the reward. They see confirmation in their way of life though their life experiences: good and bad. They find happiness in their way of looking at the world. These are not people who have a belief system that they can change tomorrow, but people who are committed and live their lives accordingly.
I am not saying that such faith is good or bad. Many have misplaced their trust. But that applies to science as well as religion. But you do find good people who have found happiness and know they are living life to the fullest weather they are working in a soup kitchen or rescuing people, or counseling the broken hearted. As a scientist, you at times need to run on pure logic, but don't loose sight of your humanity, and the people you love and who love you. And that is really what religion is about. It doesn't say much about science, but it does say a lot about loving your mom.
David
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Oh thank you!
I must say part of your responce I do agree with and other parts I don't, first of all I think I wasn't clear through my hot headness so I will restate:
Religion is a belif, most people were brought up beliving something, which (I agree) connects them to their community and friends, a lot of people who are religious (in my experience) don't try to find any truth behind belif (why would they, they don't need to prove it they belive it already). Personally I think that religion doesn't explain anything in the world acurately enough, it doesn't have a precise system, like science. They just "KNOW" it, but the truth is they don't. Religion just doesn't make sense to me, the more and more I analyze it, the less I belive in it, I think that in some ways religious faith is in some cases the easy way out (not taking a risk) because you just belive what priests or the bible (or torah etc.) tell you, some don't but their thought religious and all thought in general is based on these direct and indirect sources, science is a lot differnt for obvious reasons, It is more daring because you have hunches not nessicarily belifs, nothing in science is final, it never is decided, religion is not nessicarily decided but it is pretty much a world prepared for you (you see things in a differnt perspective than someone who makes observations rather than inferences based on teachings).
I could go on for a long time but I think I should stop- Peace
"How would you live your life if no one was watching?"- One of those friggin posters
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Wow after reading this it makes me feel really depresed. Are u all a bunch of Athiests? Well i believe about 70% to 30% that there is.
P.S. Bush is cool.
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Neil i dont want to get to personal but do you tell your kids there is no God (your opinion).
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quote:
Originally posted by i_have_no_idea
Neil i dont want to get to personal but do you tell your kids there is no God (your opinion).
When the topic arises I just give my opinion .I certainly do not make an issue out if it at all....and I remind them that they are free to believe in what ever they wish...and provide encouragemnet for them to make there own decisions.......and all my 9 week old son can do in return is piss on my face and be be sick on my shoulder [:D][:D]
Men are the same as women.... just inside out !! (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerogain.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Faction-smiley-075.gif&hash=84631c0c4a382b5e68463904b7b9fddf)
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Thats very respectable.
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quote:
Originally posted by i_have_no_idea
Thats very respectable.
Yes it is isn't it ?...but in all seriousness. My eldest is 11, then the next is 9...and as mentioned above they are and will remain free to believe or disbelieve in their own way.
Men are the same as women.... just inside out !! (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerogain.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Faction-smiley-075.gif&hash=84631c0c4a382b5e68463904b7b9fddf)
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Heaven and hell - what a heavy discussion this has been. Maybe I could lighten it a little with a little ... science?
The following is an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry midterm.
"Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?"
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law, gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant.
One student, however, wrote the following:
First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the rate they are leaving.
I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.
As for how many souls are entering Hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell.
With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.
This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
2. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.
So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms. Teresa Banyan during my Freshman year, that "... it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you", and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then, #2 cannot be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and will not freeze.
The student received the only "A" given.
"The early bird may get the worm, but it's the second mouse who gets the cheese."
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quote:
Originally posted by Razor
So what do you think happens to evil people after thier death who have comitted Mass crimes, like Hitler.......or Bush?
Why does it matter what happens to Bush or Hitler after their death?
I am an atheist, and don't believe in Heaven or Hell, but is not one of the tenets of Christianity about forgiveness?
I am not even sure that Hitler or Bush are evil people. That they committed evil deed is apparent (but to a greater or lesser extent, who has not - they merely had the opportunity to do it on a grander scale), but is there not the old adage about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
Both Bush and Hitler, in there own way, are patriots and people with an intense desire to destroy that which they see/saw as evil. Others would wish to destroy them (Hitler and Bush) simply because they see them as evil.
I understand the rational need for self defence, and that the harm that Hitler was (and arguably, Bush is) doing needed to be defended against; but to wish to harm them because you regard them as evil, in my view, makes you no different to them. Once they are dead, they no longer pose a threat to anyone, and to wish them harm beyond the point where they any longer represent a threat is merely gratuitous malice.
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I'd like to suggest some responses that a Christian might make to your claims:
"If something good happens it's god's will if something bad happens he moves in mysterious ways." No, if something happens, it is God's will.
"There are hundreds of religions and all are different." All are different, but Christianity exclusively emphasizes that the relationship with God is more important that indoctrination in a set of rules.
"...I cannot believe that a god would allow people to suffer..." God is good, but not necessarily nice. Gods main purpose, as far as we are led to believe through 'his' revelation in the bible, is to bring glory to himself.
"The church of england was created by henry the 8th" Maybe, but the church was created by God. The Church of England is merely one 'organisation' of Christianity, maybe in some respects moved too far from biblical principles.
"I grew up in care without family and without parents, did god do that? What did he do about it?" We can't claim to understand God and things may happen for reasons beyond our comprehension. All we know, from what the bible says, is that God wants us to draw near to him and only through this can we be completely content.
"...giving us the ability to find a cure..." That is crap. Some might say that because of our distance from God, diseases have developed. Others might say that we are designed by God to die of this earthly life, but if we have a belief and faith in God, death is no obstacle.
"Live long and Love life" Sadly, living long is not our choice. God or no God.
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A compassionate creator would never allow his creations to burn for all eternity. Would you subject your own children to eternal torture because they didn't grow up the way you wanted them to?
Divine creation of the universe aside, the concept of eternal painful damnation is something created to fighten people into believing in manmade bull****.
As for sickness and death arising as a result of the fall of Adam and Eve.... biblical God is omniscient by all accounts. He would have known that Adam and Eve would disobey him. Why punish them for doing what you knew they would do? That's like locking a puppy in a room for a day then beating the crap out of him for pissing on the floor. You KNEW it was going to happen, don't try and act all outraged and surprised. It doesn't make sense to anyone with a shred of logical thought in their mind.
The downside to being an atheist is that instead of being afraid of hell, I'm afraid of oblivion. I know I won't care once I'm there but the ego portion of my psyche freaks the hell out when I think about no longer existing.
This message brought to you by The Council of People Who Are Sick of Seeing More People
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Try reading C.S. Lewis's book MERE CHRISTIANITY, it has answered a lot of questions for me,
about what Christianity truly is, not what the world thinks it is. I haven't read it for
about 20 years, but thinking of pulling it out and reading it again... its a classic read.
Thanks, Becky
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I think this whole thread illustrates the gulf of incomprehension beteween believers and non-believers. How, for goodness sake, could anyone who doesn't believe in God believe in heaven or hell?
And that has been my experience generally. I have known a lot of religious scientists - good people and good scientists for the most part - but as soon as you start talking about their faith it's like moving to Stepford! People capable of explaining the nature of of a quantum transition start quoting 2000 year old books written by what we would know consider ignoramuses, word for word and without any critical faculty (although quite capable of ripping an article in Nature to bits with forensic precision!).
It's a mystery, as they would say. In my experience such discussion is futile, although entertaining. You either believe it or you don't.
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quote:
Originally posted by Simmer
I think this whole thread illustrates the gulf of incomprehension beteween believers and non-believers. How, for goodness sake, could anyone who doesn't believe in God believe in heaven or hell?
As I said earlier, I regard myself an atheist, but I do like to try and understand where other people are coming from, even if I don't necessarily agree with them.
Firstly, while Heaven and Hell are religious concepts, but not all religions believe in a God (most do, but many forms of Buddhism do not, and it is possible to conceive of a religion that does not believe in God, and yet does have the notion of Heaven and Hell).
It is also possible to argue that God, Heaven, and Hell, are real but not physical; that they are parts of the human mind and psyche, but only exist within the man, and not without. This may not the the basis of Christianity to believe this, since the JudaoChristian philosophy is very much about an external God.
quote:
And that has been my experience generally. I have known a lot of religious scientists - good people and good scientists for the most part - but as soon as you start talking about their faith it's like moving to Stepford! People capable of explaining the nature of of a quantum transition start quoting 2000 year old books written by what we would know consider ignoramuses, word for word and without any critical faculty (although quite capable of ripping an article in Nature to bits with forensic precision!).
This is so, but did you also ask them to critically analyse why they loved their spouses? Some things depend on prejudice (love and hate both equally do). Religion is just another manifestation of prejudice. It may not be very scientific, but it is very human.
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It's a mystery, as they would say. In my experience such discussion is futile, although entertaining. You either believe it or you don't.
Insofar as either side will ever convince the other side of the truth of their argument, it is futile; but insofar as you may understand something more about human nature, it is still valuable.
When you ask a question, often the answer you find is not to the question you asked, but no less valuable for that.
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i believe in heaven and hell
its most inportant part of my relegion
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More important than correct speling or capital letters.