Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: Joe L. Ogan on 30/09/2010 21:25:45
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What will happen to me when I die? I am sure everyone of you has thought about this subject. I never see it discussed. Why? I do not believe that I am going to hell. I do not believe in hell! I do not believe that I am going to heaven. I do not believe in heaven! As near as I can decide, I will either be put in the ground to slowly decay as time passes or the other possible action is where my body will be burned in a crematorium. Then my ashes will be placed in some vault never to be viewed again. What will happen to my soul? I do not believe that I have a soul! The nearest thing to having a soul is my ability to think. When I die, I will no longer be able to think. I would like to see your thoughts about this subject. Thanks for comments. Joe L. Ogan
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It's not discussed on science fora because there's no evidence to support discussion. All you can do is speculate, based upon personal belief, which is no basis for science.
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There can be great discussion on what happens biologically when you die. The systematic shutting down of organs, the responses to cell death, the environmental reaction. Fascinating stuff.
But talking about spirituality and belief systems tend to just degenerate into 'he said' 'she said' arguments, and religion and science should always have a full 100meters between them.
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Well, I certainly know what you are talking about but do you not believe that science has has an obligation to dispel myths as they have to teach scientific facts? Is it enough to say that there is no scientific evidence to believe certain things or is necessary to continue the discussion as to why some beliefs do not make sense? I believe that too many people believe the myth of religion because they were brain washed as children and have never developed the ability to question what they really believe. Thanks for comments. Joe L. Ogan
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No, I don't think that science has any obligation to dispel myths; that's too much like prosetylisation, which is religion's game.
Science should just stick to what can be proved and making that knowledge available.
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This thread gives a whole new meaning to the heading "Last Post"
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What will happen to me when I die? I am sure everyone of you has thought about this subject. I never see it discussed. Why? I do not believe that I am going to hell. I do not believe in hell! I do not believe that I am going to heaven. I do not believe in heaven! As near as I can decide, I will either be put in the ground to slowly decay as time passes or the other possible action is where my body will be burned in a crematorium. Then my ashes will be placed in some vault never to be viewed again. What will happen to my soul? I do not believe that I have a soul! The nearest thing to having a soul is my ability to think. When I die, I will no longer be able to think. I would like to see your thoughts about this subject. Thanks for comments. Joe L. Ogan
I can understand your concern as, like you, there are bits of the bible that I find really confusing. I don't know what the name of the place is that we go to when we die but I know it's a good place of God's creation and that's all I focus on if I think about such things.
The bible tells us in Romans 10:9-11:
If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
So all you need to do is be confident in the fact that you have Jesus as your saviour and one day you will be with Him in a good place.
I find that worrying about things like 'where is heaven?' and 'what will happen when Jesus comes back?' just end up with me feeling frustrated. As a mere human, I can not possibly hope to understand everything about God so I usually don't even begin to try!
Instead I like to focus my time and energy on what God calls us all to do. That is, be salt and light to the people around us so that they may see Jesus' love for them through us. Making the most of every opportunity we are called to live our lives as ambassadors for Jesus.
Jesus himself said:
"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men. You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (Matthew 5:13-16)
Likewise in Romans 12:1+2, the writer tells us:
'So here's what I want you to do, God helping you: Take your everyday, ordinary life—your sleeping, eating, going-to-work, and walking-around life—and place it before God as an offering. Embracing what God does for you is the best thing you can do for him. Don't become so well-adjusted to your culture that you fit into it without even thinking. Instead, fix your attention on God. You'll be changed from the inside out. Readily recognize what he wants from you, and quickly respond to it. Unlike the culture around you, always dragging you down to its level of immaturity, God brings the best out of you, develops well-formed maturity in you.'
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I can understand your concern as, like you, there are bits of the bible that I find really confusing. I don't know what the name of the place is that we go to when we die but I know it's a good place of God's creation and that's all I focus on if I think about such things.
The bible tells us in Romans 10:9-11:
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None of this is science, please keep discussions about the Bible, etc to the 'Just chat' board. Thanks.
[This thread has been relocated to 'Just Chat' as it is off-topic in 'General Science' - Mods]
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Just as others have said, I could only give you my personal idea of 'after life'.
Quite simple really, your body will either degrade over a period of time or be transformed into a new set of chemical compounds by burning.
Our character, memories, ideas, feelings and other such 'personalities' are no more, kaput, ended, fin, deleted. Without the brain to support these, they no longer exist.
But you just try proving it, I'm damned sure I can't.
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Don, you can't. Say everything about you is lost forever. If we have children our genetic material continues on along with character traits that your children copy from you as you nurture them. I have artistic talent from my great grandfather, stubbornness from my grandma and a sense of humour from my dad. I notice that one of my sons has my creativity and the other has my fantastic memory. Immortality only comes via your children.
People that can't cope with their own mortality lean on religion because they can't cope with the thought of nothingness. I love torch wood and the way they deal with death. Captain Jack says that there is nothing when you die, just darkness, so make the most of life.
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I've often wondered who was responsible for giving me smelly feet [>:(]
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It wasn't me governor honest.
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I've often wondered who was responsible for giving me smelly feet [>:(]
It's the between-the-toes-cheese-fairies.
These rather punctilious little rapscallion miscreantal folklore beings thrive on Scots immigrants to the USA....so, ewe should consider yourself quite fortunate indeed. They are the progeny betwixt Lanark Blue and Cranachan and spend many months fortifying their domain between the toes of your left foot and then (like your journey across the pond) venture forth and colonise the gaps between the toes of your right foot.
The odour ewe detect is the chimneyfying release from the distilleries that they soon ply their trade from which (if ewe take a very strong magnifying glass) can be seen brewing away beneath the nail of your big toes.
There is of course a chant that can be recited and a ritual to perform should ewe require them to vacate...It does involve a haddock-in-a hammock . Further details are available.
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When I die, I will no longer be able to think. I would like to see your thoughts about this subject.
Unfortunately you may not have to wait until you're dead before you've lost the ability to think ...
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/179/3/255/FIG3
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Don, you can't. Say everything about you is lost forever. If we have children our genetic material continues on along with character traits that your children copy from you as you nurture them. I have artistic talent from my great grandfather, stubbornness from my grandma and a sense of humour from my dad. I notice that one of my sons has my creativity and the other has my fantastic memory. Immortality only comes via your children.
I rather question this passing down of ability. How can we know that the artistic talent of an individual was inherited from one of their forebears and would not have developed regardless of parental influence?
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I've often wondered who was responsible for giving me smelly feet [>:(]
Perhaps "Geezer" should be re-named "Cheeser"! (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbestsmileys.com%2Ffainting%2F1.gif&hash=9f679325d51a2a8410934e5499e6100e)
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When I die, I will no longer be able to think. I would like to see your thoughts about this subject.
Unfortunately you may not have to wait until you're dead before you've lost the ability to think ...
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/179/3/255/FIG3
[/quoteLooking at this from a different perspective, I believe I was wrong to take offence. I aplologize. Thanks for comments. Joe L. Ogan
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Since this topic is at the top of the list again - I'll add my two cents. I used to think that when I die, I just become someone else. That's what made sense to me and seemed to be the way it would happen. It wasn't something I thought about, just what my mind threw up whenever I was confronted with this issue.
Then I spent some time pondering the fact that there must be a difference between someone who is alive and breathing and thinking, and a fresh corpse, and that due to conservation of energy, that "something" had to transfer somewhere - why not in a foetus?
I no longer believe this. I think that whatever consciousness is, it's a by-product of the stuff going on in our brains, and once all the reactions no longer take place, we decay, as others have stated.
I also can't resist coming to RDs defence and whilst not knowing what his intentions were two years ago when he said: Unfortunately you may not have to wait until you're dead before you've lost the ability to think ...
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/179/3/255/FIG3
I'm pretty sure the "you" wasn't a direct insult at the questioner, but more a comment that with a population that lives longer and longer, the ability to harness our thoughts and our link with consciousness can start to deteriorate before our body dies. That's how I read it anyway.
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Life is an experience, while death is a lack of experience, so it doesn't make sense to speak of the experience of death. All you will ever experience is life.
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You can't understand the life force or mind with physics.
Here is an older thread on the subject:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=25110.msg270984#msg270984
The USAF tested persons under multi G Forces until they collapsed unconscious and the physical phenomena called hypoxy does not account for most of the experiences of people in near death experiences, like remaining conscious, going up a tunnel of light and perceiving other entities... What interests me in this thread are the recollections of people of their operations as seen from above while for example the brain was cooled to about 2 degrees Celsius. Near ice. And with no blood flow. Too accurate.
There are lots of such accounts. And scientists aiming to disprove them, trying to find abnormalities in the brains of these people, compared to the ones who see nothing and only time goes by. Reminds me of The Tomorrow People.
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Consider this question scientifically:
Death ( of anything) usually represents the loss of energy that formally animated the mass. So we could say that when one dies they lose the energy that they formally had which animated the mass body. Where does the energy go? Science would say that it is absorbed ( verses floats off as some sort of personality ghost) into the air and other living organisms. So the energy that formally animated the dead person is now absorbed and utilized by other organisms. This absorption does not mean reincarnation nor possession..as the energy is an impersonal forces that merely is transferred from a dead thing to living things. Or is received by the air.
This would contradict most religious ideas as to what happens when one dies. The mass form of any body merely represents a spatial area that encompasses, acquires and uses qualitative energy. There must be a certain volume of energy , as well animation of energy for a mass to exist or remain in motion. So we would refer to a dead person as a mass at rest with no potentiality or relativity to the right volume and mixture of energy to ever be animated or live again. We would refer to a dying person or recently dead person as the cessation of these animating energy potentials. We would refer to the body as a mass in a constant state of non motion or non-animation so long as the correct volume and quality of energy is not or is never placed into the body again. The body as a separate mass from other masses and is a conglomeration of energy parts. These energy parts eventually decay or are absorbed into the ground, plants, animals etc. Thus the former energy of a dead person can now be used relative to other 'living' mass objects.
In the bible it refers to the body as being dead if not relative to the spirit. In scientific terms we would refer to the spirit as an impersonal energy force existing relative to and within the living organism. While the person is alive they posses this energy force. When the body dies they lose the entirety of this force ( required to sustain the life of the body) and thus lose the ability to live any longer.
This force while utilized endows the mass creature with senses, feelings, emotions and intellect. When this force ceases to reside in the mass organism then the body dies and thus the former ability to feel, sense, think etc..Ceases for the organism. If the force as utilized endows the creature with these faculties then all of these living faculties and functions cease entirely when the energy is lost.
A dead human is non existent, non animated, non feeling, non thinking. When he dies he is dead. In the scientific sense he is a mass organism that is in a state of rest where no relative energy force can bring them to life aside from the energy force that was in him before he died. As for the origin of this force ..i will avoid that discussion.
The bible states as to death or a dead person the following:
"His spirit( energy..verses soul) goes out and returns to the one who gave it."
Thus an energy source afforded to a body ..energy. When that body dies, the former energy force returns.. in the sense that the energy goes back to its original state as not defined by a material(mass) body.
The bible also says that "in that day" ( when he dies) "his thoughts perish"..as well it says - "their is no wisdom nor knowledge nor anything" that exists with the person or as the person after death.
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Don't know what will happen Joe, but don't give up on it.
My sweetest wish is that I get what I dream, and that makes it important to choose the dream that suit you best, right? After this operation i only get three hours sleep, which makes my dreams more easily remembered, and I find them to be story's :) filled with light and magic, and the weirdest thing about it is that they somehow seem to be telling a same story but from different perspectives sort of, like some smoky glass that subtly change color as you look. Don't know what to make of it, but the world(s) I seem to dream are very real, and enjoyable to me. Not all light of course, there's darkness too but they still make some weird sense and I? Like them :)
Who knows Joe? But science fits my daily interest best :) And keeps me awake.
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When a persons thoughts perish as in the Bible, this means they are in the grave, sheol.
When a person dies the soul goes to the author of the character of the soul.
According to my understanding of biology, human animation comes from the burning of fuel in the mitochondria. This leads to movement and thus life, in all the different cell specializations. Making a system, with particular emphasis on the nerves of the brain. And some not all hold that existence, or consciousness is the action of the brain. And that once it stops moving there is no existence. Some others see it differently that or every action of the mind there is a corresponding action in the nervous system.
I too have been dreaming. I suffered a cold recently, rare these days, and I saw memories of my youth when I often had colds, and also dreams from past sleeps came back to mind, places that look a little familiar. From twenty years ago and around those times.
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http://near-death.com/experiences/triggers06.html
In this link, some research has been done to experiences other than hypoxy in the USAF under multiple Gs.