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Life Sciences => Cells, Microbes & Viruses => Topic started by: dkv on 29/09/2007 08:08:51

Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 29/09/2007 08:08:51
Before vaccination was put into practice . It was almost ritualistic for families to declare Chicken Pox as hereditary. "Mata" is the name of the disease. Mother in English I wonder what kind of relationship exists between diseases and life.Not only that for how long generations might have suffered to declare it Mother.
The disease is none other than Chicken Pox.
Can we can we call it hereditary?
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: _Stefan_ on 29/09/2007 09:56:51
No. However the susceptibility to the disease probably is.
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 29/09/2007 11:54:36
This disease catchs young.
A typical situation involves a 8-10 year old child suffering from rashes.
If one crosses that age it doenst effect.
How is this possible?
Virus differentiates between age of people.(Remember Virus is 100-1000 times smaller than bacteria)
Certain genetic diseases also appear at a particular age.
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: another_someone on 29/09/2007 13:51:04
Quote from: dkv on 29/09/2007 11:54:36
This disease catchs young.
A typical situation involves a 8-10 year old child suffering from rashes.
If one crosses that age it doenst effect.
How is this possible?
Virus differentiates between age of people.(Remember Virus is 100-1000 times smaller than bacteria)

Your premise is wrong on several counts.

Most people do not catch chicken pox when they are older because they caught it when young, and developed some immunity to it through that.  People who did not catch chicken pox as a child can still catch it as an adult.

Secondly, there is a related disease that still effects adults, that is caused by the same virus as chicken pox, and that is shingles.

Thirdly, there are many diseases that can have very different symptoms and prognosis if caught as a child, as a young adult, and as an older adult.  In these cases, it is not normally a difference in the likelihood of becoming infected by the disease, but the differences in the way the body reacts to the infectious agent.
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 29/09/2007 14:28:36
See the simplest defence system is when the person is at the of 1 month or 2 month or lets say even 5 years.
But as I said this disease catches young at the age around 8-10.
HOW?
Instead of observing it as teenage problem we should have observed it as childhood problem with decreasing frequency of diseased cases with age.
Which means greater the age less the chance of finding the disease.
And also lower the age greater the chances of finding the Virus infection.
This does not happen.
Am I still wrong?
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: another_someone on 29/09/2007 14:54:23
Quote from: dkv on 29/09/2007 14:28:36
See the simplest defence system is when the person is at the of 1 month or 2 month or lets say even 5 years.
But as I said this disease catches young at the age around 8-10.
HOW?

Most childhood diseases tend to occur around the age children start going to school or kindergarten.

At 1 or 2 months of age, the young baby is likely to mostly remain at home, and not come into contact with lots of older children, so the likelihood of catching a childhood disease from an older child is small.
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 29/09/2007 15:07:27
Home argument is little unimaginable.
Because every mother carries her child when child is young. And is exposed to large population out of curiosity and general happiness(whoever meets the mother meets the child).Infact the interaction is very close.
There are great number of chances to contract a disease.
What you are saying effectively is that because only Teenage or lower class people get infected therefore it spreads in their group.
But Why Only Children of that Age?
A new born should also get infected. Unless we insist that disease requires an infected person of specific age. Then only we can explain that it effects children at certain age as children of same age group together.

 
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: iko on 29/09/2007 15:14:05
Quote from: dkv on 29/09/2007 15:07:27
Home argument is little unimaginable.
Because every mother carries her child when child is young. And is exposed to large population out of curiosity and general happiness(whoever meets the mother meets the child).Infact the interaction is very close.
There are great number of chances to contract a disease.
What you are saying effectively is that because only Teenage or lower class people get infected therefore it spreads in their group.
But Why Only Children of that Age?
A new born should also get infected. Unless we insist that disease requires an infected person of specific age. Then only we can explain that it effects children at certain age as children of same age group together.

 

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F4%2F4e%2FWindpocken.jpg%2F200px-Windpocken.jpg&hash=fdedd62373d480ad4b8351f9be2475ea)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Windpocken.jpg/200px-Windpocken.jpg

Hi dkv,

I think we need to set some basic points about infectious diseases here.
 
To infect with chickenpox some non-immunized person (usually a very young one) you need some 'carrier' of the virus. An infected person starts a sort of epidemics around susceptible individuals (usually children).  The pathogen involved is a DNA virus of the Herpes family, called HHV-3 (Human Herpes Virus 3) or VZV (Varicella Zoster Virus).

-Infectious 'contacts' are patients with active disease, BEFORE setting up their immune defense (specific antibodies).
-Active systemic disease is chickenpox itself: breath droplets and 'wet' pustules containing HHV-3.
-Active local disease is Herpes Zoster (Shingles): 'wet' pustules containing HHV-3.
-A fetus can get infected (and heavily damaged) only when an unimmunized mother herself gets infected during pregnancy.  Most people over 2 decades of age get immunized, either they showed signs and symptoms of chickenpox or not (asymptomatic infection).
In some countries vaccination campaigns are helping and preventing these rare events.
Immunodeficient patients (AIDS, chemo, transplanted) exposed to HHV-3 contacts may suffer reactivation and extensive damage, but special antiviral drugs and 'Hyperimmune' human immunoglobulins are available.  And this is another story anyway.

ikod

P.S.: I found this a great, enjoyable reading for the lot of us:

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic2361.htm

 
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 29/09/2007 16:18:17
We agree I guess.
To agree a little more we need to understand how and why the infected carrier is found largely at young age.
The underlined large population and very close is relative to the Mother or the children who come along with other mothers. Therefore the exposure is same as Mother or more on daily basis.If mother comes in contact with infected person then the child will also get infected.
Now the question is why it takes 8-9 years on average to find the symptoms ?
How many people do we need to get exposed to find disease in oneself?
What role does the Virus play with respect to the immune system?
Because the infection almost never results in a kill.
Isnt it awakening or sharpening the skills of immune system?
Like a good mother giving life skills.
Can we imagine survival in real world filled with dust and millions of microbes without this Virus?

Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 29/09/2007 16:23:54
LET US UNDERSTAND THE DISEASE AND MEDICINE PART
Failure to treat zoster with antiviral medication may increase the likelihood of postherpetic neuralgia. However, one study suggests this is not the case in young, otherwise healthy individuals.
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: kdlynn on 29/09/2007 16:31:35
the problem with your theory seems to be that people don't only get chicken pox in that age group. i was fourteen when i got it, my brother was seven, my sister was 3, and my best friend got it as soon as she got out of the hospital. at about a week old. my dad was forty when he got it.
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 29/09/2007 16:58:44
yes such diversity is expected if the disease has no age specific strategy.
If this is the case then I am happy.
BUT the link iko sent specifically mentions children.
Quote
Approximately 1 per 4000 children develops VZV
ratio is 1:4000 a very high ratio for developed country. In dveleoping countries living without vaccinations the ratio must be even greater.
All my family members suffered and survived at a very young age.
Get your facts right.
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: kdlynn on 29/09/2007 17:01:18
wow
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 29/09/2007 17:12:33
Thanks. I dont think personal data has much significance here.
The doctors know that Virus generally shows its sign at a young age.
Prolonged disease may create long term consequences.
But this virus hardly stays for long even if no treatment is done.
It comes ,conquers and leaves.
But why?
This Virus is DNA based and sufficiently advanced.
If we consider the statistical data with respect to age it becomes more mysterious.



Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: chris on 29/09/2007 17:27:45
Chicken pox is also known as varicella zoster virus (VZV) and 90% of people have had it. Alongside HSV (which causes cold sores and genital herpes) and EBV (which causes glandular fever), chicken pox is a member of the herpesvirus family, which characteristically remain with an individual for life once that person becomes infected. This is known as latency, and different members of the herpes family target different cell types for this persistent phase of their lifecycles. In the case of chicken pox and herpes simplex (cold sores) the site of latency is sensory nerve cells.

Chicken pox spreads via the respiratory route. The virus is produced in very high concentrations in the skin vesicles (spots) associated with the disease, and it is also shed in respiratory secretions from the mouths and noses of individuals who are in the early stages of infection.

If these particles are breathed in by a susceptible individual the virus can hijack cells lining the respiratory tract (between the mouth and lungs) and turn them into virus factories. Each infected cell amplifies the infecting dose by churning out thousands of new copies of the virus, which spreads rapidly through the adjacent lung cells and also enters the blood stream. This is known as a primary viraemia and begins to happen about 7 days after infection. The syndrome it subsequently produces is known as acute varicella or acute chicken pox.

As the infection progresses, immune cells including lymphocytes move towards the sites of viral activity and themselves become infected. These cells then migrate around the body eventually coming to rest in small blood vessels (capillaries) in the skin (and other mucous membranes). This is referred to as a secondary viraemia, and wherever an infected lymphocyte settles the infected individual will develop a spot (known as a vesicle), because the lymphocyte will churn out viral particles into the adjacent tissue.

This occurs over the next 7 days so that in most people the rash appears by about 16 days post infection. During this build up before the appearance of the rash the infected person usually begins to feel unwell and often complains of a headache, temperature, aching muscles and lethargy, although in children these symptoms are usually minor or absent.

The arrival of the rash indicates that the virus is replicating (growing) in the skin. The inflammation provoked by this process causes blood vessels to become leaky and plasma spills out, filling the infected area with tissue fluid and forming the characteristic blisters. Infected cells float of into the fluid, which is crammed with infectious virus. The inflammation also irritates local nerve endings, which triggers scratching, rupture of the vesicles and escape of the virus into the environment where it can infect other susceptible people.

At the same time as it accumulates in the spots, the virus also penetrates sensory nerves that supply the infected patch of skin. Once the virus enters the nerve it sheds its outer coat and uses a specialised cell transport system, called fast axonal transport, to hitch a free ride back to the nerve cell body located close to the spinal cord. The cell body contains the nerve's nucleus and genetic information.

When they arrive there, the viral particles move to the membrane that surrounds the nucleus and thread their viral DNA through a small gap in the membrane known as a nuclear pore. Once inside the nucleus the DNA forms a tiny ring-shaped mini-chromosome that sits alongside the cell's own DNA and harbours the metabolic recipe book for making new chicken pox viruses. At this time the viral DNA remains dormant and is completely hidden from the immune system.

About a week after the rash first appears the immune system usually gains the upper hand and antibodies and cells in the blood targeted at the virus successfully neutralise the infection. The spots crust over, the itching subsides, the person ceases to be infectious and then feels much better.

But tests on post mortem tissue have confirmed that, once infected, an individual continues to harbour the virus in their nervous system for the rest of their life, and this is the source of a second manifestation associated with this virus - shingles.

It seems that from time to time the viral DNA lurking inside the nuclei of sensory nerve cells re-awakens and triggers the cell to produce new virus particles. These are shipped down the axon (nerve fibre) towards the skin, where they bud off from the nerve and infected the overlying skin cells. This is known as reactivation and normally the immune system is sufficiently swift in its response to mop up the escaping virus before it has the chance to trigger any obvious signs or symptoms. Doctors think that these periodic reactivations also help to re-educate the immune system about how to respond to VZV, which is partly why being infected once gives lifelong protection.

But sometimes, and especially with increasing age, the immune system fails to contain the reactivation and a clutch of spots appears on the patch of skin supplied by the nerve in which the reactivation has occurred. This is shingles, or "zoster". The spots never normally spread beyond this site, but they are highly infectious and can spread the virus to other susceptible people although previously infected individuals are not at any risk. The blisters usually disappear within 5-7 days.

These viral recrudescences are very painful, both at the time and for up to a year afterwards. This is known as post-herpetic neuralgia and it's thought to be a consequence of nerve damage caused by the reactivating virus. The pain can be treated with drugs like amitriptyline, gabapentin or topical capsaicin, and treating people who have an acute outbreak of shingles with the drug aciclovir can help to reduce the chances of it developing.

Chris
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 29/09/2007 17:45:08
Thanks a lot.
Doctors say that is helps to improve or realign immune system.So we can agree on its benefit.
But that is the benefit to the host.
Virus finds a life long carrier. As you said almost 90% people carry this virus and the disease.
This virus has been living us for ages.
Hence the name Mother.
Now the question is from the genetic point of view why didnt the virus mutation along with selections led to increase its population within its carrier and outside?
If almost everyone carries it then why not every foetus suffers from it?
Why it triggers at young age?(The carrier is always available in latent form)


Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: chris on 29/09/2007 17:54:58
The virus has been infecting humans and human-like lineages for millions of years; it's therefore genetically very well adapted to us. As reactivations of the virus (shingles) do not trigger viraemia (virus in the blood) it doesn't infect foetuses, although this can occur if the mother succumbs to acute primary varicella (chicken pox) whilst she is pregnant.

The herpes family of viruses use latency as a way to avoid the requirement for a large infectable pool of individuals. As the virus can survive in one individual for their entire life there is no need to spread continuously as an acute illness like measles.

The best time to catch VZV is actually in the first 6 months of life. During this time infants carry their mother's antibodies and therefore develop only a mild infection. After 6 months, when maternal antibody has decayed away, the manifestations are more severe.

Chris
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: paul.fr on 29/09/2007 18:15:25
Quote from: chris on 29/09/2007 17:54:58

The best time to catch VZV is actually in the first 6 months of life. During this time infants carry their mother's antibodies and therefore develop only a mild infection. After 6 months, when maternal antibody has decayed away, the manifestations are more severe.

Chris

Chris, this is the reason parents used to gather all of their kids together for a "pox party", isn't it?
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 29/09/2007 18:47:13
Yes.
But that is not how it happens.
It infects generally after 6-7 years when the host is more capable of handling its pressures.
Mothers anit bodies and mothers anti body. It does help to improve childs immune system.

Generally the Virus population increases at much faster rate than bacteria because of its small size.

(I have my own reasons why this happens)

But here we find it confined in Humans that too at certain cellular locations.
It hardly infects animals.
As per the current theory the differential evolution of herpes family should have been towards those mutations which manifest more often in every part of the host(using cooperation or struggle)...
But the extent of manifestations are limited to special cells and overall it appears almost once in life.
AND the host genetic pool has consistently failed to discern the strategy of the Virus since ages.
Unless this Virus provided some exclusive benefits this would not have been possible.
Which appears to be strengthing of immune system.

Now iff virus is driven by pleasure then it will request more priviledges at seat of pleasure and will not like to move to locations where the expereince of pleasure of less.
And it encourage host to experience greater pleasure. And it will insist on replication.
Thus this virus will activate to trigger replication only to discover that replication does not make sense but pleasure does and it not spread in the whole body or blood.
(
View from the current theory :
Virus might have even promoted the replication of its host by enhancing the sexual pleasure by sitting at the sensory nerve cells.)
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: chris on 29/09/2007 20:55:27
I've no idea what dkv is going on about; sorry.

Chris
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: iko on 29/09/2007 21:28:29
Quote from: chris on 29/09/2007 20:55:27
I've no idea what dkv is going on about; sorry.

Chris

Me too, Chris.
Citations and references should be the rule here.

ikod   [:(!]
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: paul.fr on 29/09/2007 21:38:47
Quote from: chris on 29/09/2007 20:55:27
I've no idea what dkv is going on about; sorry.

Chris

At the risk of sounding like a parrot, i second that, and not only in this topic.
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 29/09/2007 21:43:01
Another attempt with corrections:

Yes the best time to catch the Virus according to doctors is in the first 6 months of life.
But that is not how it is happening in the real world. The Virus largely remains latent till the age of 6-7.It doesnt attack the new born.
After 2 years the body and the mind is largely capable of going thorugh the trauma of this disease.
This excpetion or the  process appears to strengthen the child's immune system.

Why ?
I give evolutionary reasons.
========================
Generally the Virus population increases at much faster rate than bacteria because of its small size.
And the result is fatal to the host.
But this Virus is confined in Humans and is found at specific  cellular locations.
It is not found in animals.
Current theory View:
As per the current theory the differential evolution of herpes family would have lead indiscriminate manifestations and therefore should have been fatal to the carrier..
Or at least one would have expected them to be present at all location in the host.
(using principles of cooperation or struggle ... the virus would reached to some understanding with Human gene pool .. whatever that means!! Everyone knows current theory works on principle of illusions!!)...
But we know something else:
1.Virus transmits mother to child.
2.Virus attacks only once.
3.Virus attacks children and not infants
4.Virus is not fatal
5.Virus is not found at every cell of the body.


It raises few more questions.
1.Why the Virus is found at those specific locations and why it manifests only once in life of a carrier.
2.How this latent Virus transmits from Mother to Child?
3.Why the VIrus is not fatal?
4.If the Virus was a serious threat and immune system considered the Virus mutable therefore a potential threat to security of the entire body then
why the  host genetic pool consistently failed to remove the dangerous Virus from the Body?
5.Why the Virus lives in sensory Cells?

Answer to the 4th question:
Unless this Virus provided some exclusive benefits this would not have been possible.
Which appears to be strengthing of immune system.

Answer to the 1st and 5th Question:
(From my theory)
Now iff virus is driven by pleasure then it will request more priviledges at seat of pleasure and will not like to move to locations where the expereince of pleasure of less.

Answer to the 2nd Question:
The Mother carries this virus and it turns out that this Virus triggers once to provide service and then it cooperates to keep the immune system healthy.
It doesnt not aim at mindless replication. The Virus has learned the fundamentals of cooperation.

Answer to the 3rd Question:
The Virus is not fatal because it cooperates with the larger goal of the Human System.


Extracting View from the current theory :
The Virus would have mutated and fought the battles regularly to increase its presence in the human body. Something like HIV in African population.
And the VIRUS would have led to definite death of human species.
 
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: kdlynn on 29/09/2007 21:55:45
chris and iko... you're both doctors, right?
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: iko on 29/09/2007 22:04:21
Quote from: dkv on 29/09/2007 21:43:01
Another attempt with corrections:

Yes the best time to catch the Virus according to doctors is in the first 6 months of life.

This is not correct.
You should add a citation-source-reference at least in one out of 4 statements of yours.
Probably you meant that in the first 6 months an infant is partially protected by specific IgG antibodies anti-HHV-3 passed by the immunized mother.  More IgGs are available if the baby is breastfed.

ikod
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: another_someone on 29/09/2007 22:06:15
Quote from: kdlynn on 29/09/2007 21:55:45
chris and iko... you're both doctors, right?

Exactly so.
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: iko on 29/09/2007 22:14:38


Paediatric varicella hospitalisations in France: a nationwide survey.
Grimprel E, Levy C, de La Rocque F, Cohen R, Soubeyrand B, Caulin E, Derrough T, Lecuyer A, d'Athis P, Gaudelus J; Pediatricians Working Group.
Groupe de Pathologie Infectieuse Pédiatrique de la Société Française de Pédiatrie, Paris, France. emmanuel.grimprel@trs.ap-hop-paris.fr

Paediatric patients hospitalised with varicella (n = 1575) were reported to a French national network between March 2003 and July 2005. Superinfection was identified in 50.3% of cases, principally of skin and soft-tissue (36.5%).
The risk of superinfection increased with fever relapse, use of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, prolonged fever, an age of 1-5 years, and contamination at the childminder's home. Neurological complications were observed in 7.8% of cases, while pulmonary complications were less frequent (3.1%). Forty-nine patients had sequelae and eight patients died. Surveillance should continue in France with a view to the future implementation of a universal vaccination programme.

Clin Microbiol Infect. 2007 May;13(5):546-9.
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 29/09/2007 23:37:52
Quote from: paul.fr on 29/09/2007 18:15:25
Quote from: chris on 29/09/2007 17:54:58

The best time to catch VZV is actually in the first 6 months of life. During this time infants carry their mother's antibodies and therefore develop only a mild infection. After 6 months, when maternal antibody has decayed away, the manifestations are more severe.

Chris

Chris, this is the reason parents used to gather all of their kids together for a "pox party", isn't it?
Is this without logic?
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 29/09/2007 23:39:39
Quote from: dkv on 29/09/2007 16:23:54
LET US UNDERSTAND THE DISEASE AND MEDICINE PART
Failure to treat zoster with antiviral medication may increase the likelihood of postherpetic neuralgia. However, one study suggests this is not the case in young, otherwise healthy individuals.

The training of immune system involves some real excercise. But overall the study suggests that it  doesnt harm if the case is young.
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: iko on 30/09/2007 05:48:15
Quote from: iko on 29/09/2007 22:04:21
Quote from: dkv on 29/09/2007 21:43:01
Another attempt with corrections:

Yes the best time to catch the Virus according to doctors is in the first 6 months of life.

This is not correct.
You should add a citation-source-reference at least in one out of 4 statements of yours.
Probably you meant that in the first 6 months an infant is partially protected by specific IgG antibodies anti-HHV-3 passed by the immunized mother.  More IgGs are available if the baby is breastfed.

ikod

Ops. Me apologize and go back to my corner with me english textbook.
I thought that 'best time' meant higher incidence-risk of infection.
Me sorry back to my corny cod liver oil story.

ikod   [:-[]
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: dkv on 30/09/2007 06:18:41
amazing kids.
Title: Chicken Pox- A hereditary disease?
Post by: jordan23 on 19/10/2007 17:41:45
Most childhood diseases tend to occur around the age children start going to school or kindergarten.
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