Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => Complementary Medicine => Topic started by: Donnah on 27/03/2004 21:57:37
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Anybody know about magnetism and magnetic therapy? Or how magnetism affects the human body?
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From what I've heard, while the studys on whether magnetism treatment can be benneficial or not are mixed. The studies on how exactly they work on your body (assuming that they do) either show no results, or are worthless studies (due to their experimental design) that were just setup to get the desired results. unless anyone's read something that I haven't I don't think we reall know much about how they work on us.
Like I said, as far as whether they work or not, expert opinions seem to be more mixed.
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I ALWAYS see those magnetic therapy bracelets for sell everywhere, i think they are part of a study, whatever
I WILL RULE THE WORLD, so suck up now before its too late(ha ha ha ha ha)
Greetings in Christ Jesus my Lord[;)]
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Magnetic therapy is very soothing. My friend has a metal plate in his back from a car injury and likes nothing better than to go down the local scrap yard and swing round on the end of the chain and magnet that is normally used for lifting cars. He says its better than a fun park ride.
Actually on a more serious note and realising this is a serious question I would also like to know a little more about it.
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I thought I posted something on this already. As far as I understood the theory, a very strong magnet is supposed to attract the iron in your cells, thus increasing blood flow and healing to the area upon which the magnet is focused. We had a doc here do some magnet therapy after a stroke, but I can't see where it worked all that well. He's still partially paralyzed on one side, speaks with slurred speech and walks with a cane.
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Back in the seventies, I worked for a company, Medcor, that was doing magnetic healing research. This research used AC magnetic fields to enhance bone re-growth after breakage. I participated in the design of several devices that applied AC magnetic fields to the limb around the broken bone. It had rather spectacular results, with geriatric patient's bones knitting where they had been confined to wheelchairs with bone that would not heal. Then there were financial difficulties, and the research stopped.
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wow
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quote:
Originally posted by gsmollin
Back in the seventies, I worked for a company, Medcor, that was doing magnetic healing research. This research used AC magnetic fields to enhance bone re-growth after breakage. I participated in the design of several devices that applied AC magnetic fields to the limb around the broken bone. It had rather spectacular results, with geriatric patient's bones knitting where they had been confined to wheelchairs with bone that would not heal. Then there were financial difficulties, and the research stopped.
gsmollin, that's really interesting. I know they use it on race horses and it works. Do you apply the negative field, the positive, or both? Can you explain how it works in more detail?
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Well, it's an AC field, so the coil applies positive as well as negative. I'm sorry that I can't give you any more information about the research, since I was not a "principal investigator", but an electrical designer for some of the equipment. I still do keep in touch with some of the other Medcor people, however, and I might ask them what they remember. I was interested that this technology has apparent veterinary uses. I was really disappointed in the failure of Medcor, but of course it happens all the time. They couldn't compete with Medtronics' Pacemakers.
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AC; positive and negative. Guess I should have been able to figure that out. I'd be very interested to hear any more information you get.
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Magnetic therapy is very soothing. My friend has a metal plate in his back from a car injury and likes nothing better than to go down the local scrap yard and swing round on the end of the chain and magnet that is normally used for lifting cars. He says its better than a fun park ride.
Actually on a more serious note and realising this is a serious question I would also like to know a little more about it.
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I thought I posted something on this already. As far as I understood the theory, a very strong magnet is supposed to attract the iron in your cells, thus increasing blood flow and healing to the area upon which the magnet is focused. We had a doc here do some magnet therapy after a stroke, but I can't see where it worked all that well. He's still partially paralyzed on one side, speaks with slurred speech and walks with a cane.
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Back in the seventies, I worked for a company, Medcor, that was doing magnetic healing research. This research used AC magnetic fields to enhance bone re-growth after breakage. I participated in the design of several devices that applied AC magnetic fields to the limb around the broken bone. It had rather spectacular results, with geriatric patient's bones knitting where they had been confined to wheelchairs with bone that would not heal. Then there were financial difficulties, and the research stopped.
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wow
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quote:
Originally posted by gsmollin
Back in the seventies, I worked for a company, Medcor, that was doing magnetic healing research. This research used AC magnetic fields to enhance bone re-growth after breakage. I participated in the design of several devices that applied AC magnetic fields to the limb around the broken bone. It had rather spectacular results, with geriatric patient's bones knitting where they had been confined to wheelchairs with bone that would not heal. Then there were financial difficulties, and the research stopped.
gsmollin, that's really interesting. I know they use it on race horses and it works. Do you apply the negative field, the positive, or both? Can you explain how it works in more detail?
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Well, it's an AC field, so the coil applies positive as well as negative. I'm sorry that I can't give you any more information about the research, since I was not a "principal investigator", but an electrical designer for some of the equipment. I still do keep in touch with some of the other Medcor people, however, and I might ask them what they remember. I was interested that this technology has apparent veterinary uses. I was really disappointed in the failure of Medcor, but of course it happens all the time. They couldn't compete with Medtronics' Pacemakers.
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AC; positive and negative. Guess I should have been able to figure that out. I'd be very interested to hear any more information you get.
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I just want to dispel a couple of myths about magnetic therapy:
First, it has nothing to do with magnetic forces on the iron in your blood. The iron in hemoglobin is in ion form, not elemental form. It's not diamagnetic.
Second, the magnets you buy in the store produce a magnetic field that is far to weak to have an appreciable effect on the body. It's pure placebo.
A very strong magnetic field may be therapeutic when applied under the right conditions for the right purposes as it can affect eletron flow and redox reactions in the body. A small magnet in a wrist bracelet isn't going to do that.
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I'm glad you explained that, because that makes more sense to me than what I was told. I couldn't imagine any type of magnet attracting to the iron in your blood, because I couldn't figure out how we could tolerate and MRI if that were the case.
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I'm interested too and found this lot in the UK....
http://www.ecomagnets.com/bioflow-magnotherapy.htm
It would appear unconvincing to me
We make our own world
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Yeah, Alice, you're absolutely right. Your body generally maintains its pH balance on its own just fine. If it didn't, you'd have bigger issues than just arthritis and fatigue. pH is maintained by a carbonate/carbonic acid buffer system in your blood. CO2 from respiration is generated continually, which them partially dissociates to form carbonate and bicarbonate, the other half of the buffer. None of these substances are paramagnetic. (i.e. they are not affected by a magnetic field)
They're claiming to catalyze biochemical reactions in the body with a little wrist magnet...I can't believe that it's even legal to make that claim.
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I know this is not magnetic related but it is bracelet related....I see so many people who wear those copper bracelets...apart from turning your skin green...what are they supposed to do? and do they actually do it ?
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The copper bracelets are supposed to help with arthritis. I've never seen any scientific evidence that they do (or don't). Personally, I like the color of copper and sometimes wear one as jewlery. I figure if it turns out that it helps slow down arthritis, all the better.
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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Copper is a lot more believeable than magnets. At the very least, you can explain it by saying elemental copper is absorbed through the skin and catalyzes biochemical reactions that slow the progress of arthritis. Whether this is true or not is of course up for analysis, but at least it sounds plausible. Magnet therapy is utter bollocks.
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If nothing else, magnetic therapy will have good placebo effect for those who believe in it, and it certainly can't hurt (unless they swallow the magnet or something). And, who knows, maybe the weak magnetic field or something associated with it will turn out to have some real beneficial effect.
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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My mom wore a magnetic wrist band for a while to help with carpal tunnel syndrome. She claimed it made her wrists feel a lot better until I explained that the wristband was keeping her from bending her wrists excessively and the immobilization of the wrist to minimize pressure on the nerves in the wrist is the first line of treatment for that condition. It was more the band than the magnet.
I have no problem with people using things like magnets and receiving a placebo effect, but when they start buying these things to try and cure medical conditions like high blood pressure and poor circulation the link Alice posted tries to claim, it harms more than it helps.
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It astounds me how gullible people are sometimes...but I suppose if they don't know any diferent then ignorance can't be helped..................I notice they do offer a money back guarantee but surely they must have to say somewhere that it's a proven method....not write some silly quotes from people (probably self written anyway)
And they are not mentioning the differences in the strengths of the magnetic fields in their bracelets against the strengths of the professional equipment as Jay has mentioned.
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Gullible? We had a doctor here, and I do mean MD, who was washing his patients heads in peroxide to treat for Alzheimer's. As if the oxygen in the peroxide would penetrate the skull. And you should have seen how they lined up for treatment. Makes me ashamed of my profession. Then there are the docs who use chelation therapy for everything, saying is can't hurt you. Yes it can. It can blow your kidneys out. I get crazy on this kind of stuff, cause I think people don't even try to figure out what's logical and makes good sense. Now anyone should know that you can't wash your head in peroxide and cure Alzheimer's. OH PLEASE............
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quote:
Originally posted by bezoar
Gullible? We had a doctor here, and I do mean MD, who was washing his patients heads in peroxide to treat for Alzheimer's. As if the oxygen in the peroxide would penetrate the skull. And you should have seen how they lined up for treatment. Makes me ashamed of my profession. Then there are the docs who use chelation therapy for everything, saying is can't hurt you. Yes it can. It can blow your kidneys out. I get crazy on this kind of stuff, cause I think people don't even try to figure out what's logical and makes good sense. Now anyone should know that you can't wash your head in peroxide and cure Alzheimer's. OH PLEASE............
Cripes !!!!..could he have been one of the patients dressed up ?....How on earth can a doctor do that ?....they must have some form of rationale to explain it eh ?
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Yep, it's called money. Or -- there's a sucker born every minute. He calls it "alternative medicine".
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I had never seen this magnetic therapy malarkey till i got over here to Australia, they seem to fill their morning shows with sales segments and loads of people are trying to flog them. They are selling whole bed covers now so you get their beneficial effects throughout the night. Would be interesting to know if they did actually work rather than hearing from an old sports star who has been paid to SAY that it works!
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I hope it's not complete rubbish.
I've just started trying to sell them online after trawling through Pubmed and reading about it.
This is what I found:
http://www.majormagnets.co.uk/evidence.html
-Steve
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Gsmollin have you spoken to any of your old Medcor colleagues yet? I feel that magnetic therapy has potential, but we don't know how to use it effectively yet.
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No, we only get together once a year, and there are less of us every year. It used to be fun, but lately I get bummed. One of the principal investigators of the magnetic therapy had a bad stroke, and hasn't been to the last 2 reunions. One of the fellows is my age, however, and I'll ask him if he knows what happened after Medcor.
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Jay, I wouldn't be so quick to disparage the magnetic bracelet claims. I agree that there are a lot of greedy asses out there (that I'd love to kick) who will falsely promise the moon if you buy their product, but there could be something to magnetic bracelets that affects the energy meridians, sort of like a trickle charge on a battery.
I know from experience that when your life is torn apart by pain/illness and nothing is working, you get desperate and will try almost anything, regardless of how outlandish it seems.
Bruce tried magnetic therapy under a huge electromagnet for his hip and I lay under it with him for a while. It felt to me like static looks on a TV screen. It didn't help him, but he did it for only two nights. I would have tried more like ten nights.
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I see your point Donnah...maybe I wasn't clear. There's a huge difference between a little magnet on your wrist and a huge electromagnet. The small magnets that are sold by 99% of the purveyors of such items are not going to be powerful enough to have a significant effect on the body. There's little evidence that even a strong magnetic field does much of anything, though it may have potential.
Think about what a magnet does: It polarizes the electrons in a ferromagnetic material and it affects the trajectory of electrons that pass through the field. Since there is nothing ferromagnetic in your body (iron carried in hemoglobin is ionic...iron ions are not ferromagnetic, only elemental iron) you're left with affecting electron flow.
The only place that significant flow of electrons over any real distance occurs is in the nervous system and the electrons are bound into the nerve pathway by insulating layers around the nerves. (there is electron flow in redox reactions but the electrons move less than a few nanometers) The best you can do is place the magnet so that it's field is oriented in a way that the electron is accelerated along it's path. This is a fairly precise condition not readily achieved without knowing enough about nerve anatomy and magnetic fields to place the magnet in the EXACT correct position. Move the magnet slightly while it's being worn and you disrupt the orientation of the field.
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Wish I had known about this site when I was trying all those things to get well. It would have shortened the financial recovery I'm still experiencing.
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Live and learn. ;)
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15604181
Magnetic therapy article in the British Medical Journal. These authors find that the Bioflow magnets have a significant effect on arthritis of the hip and knee.
Not proof, and no mechanism suggested, but just something to bear in mind.
Yes I do sell them, but I'm not biased just objective.[:)]
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http://www.majormagnets.co.uk Bioflow - Major_Magnets
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I read the abstract you posted.... it really doesn't say anything more than pain scores decreased by a mean of 1.3 points for the test group and the results were not conclusive enough to contstrue anything definitive. 1.3 points is not a large margin on the pain scale and there were only 200 test subjects. I quote the last line: "It is uncertain whether this response is due to specific or non-specific (placebo) effects."
Not exactly a "significant" effect, as you say, but it might merit a further look.
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I think you can analize things too much and end up believing in research that tells only one side of the facts. I've used BioFlo wrist bands before, and I can tell you that it does help with dull pains and speeds up healing around the body, all from a tiny BioFlo wrist band. I'm someone with an open mind, I didn't 'wish' for it to do anything when using the magnet, it just worked. In some people (like my mother for instance) it can make them feel dizzy. If it's powerful enough to do all this, why isn't there any research that has shown it?
One last thing. They're probably many brands that ARE rubbish.
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There's no accounting for the healing power of placebo. Magnets, glyconutrients, ginseng, whatever the trend de jour is will have a fantastic placebo effect which is often more powerful than any prescription.
Here's a fun article on the self-healing power of the mind:
http://www.newstarget.com/001125.html
Your body has physiological mechanisms to repair almost any injury or illness. You just need to trick yourself into doing it.
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I have been suffering with Plantar Fascitis (inflammation of the Plantar surface of the feet) for 3 months now with no relief. I purchased the Sobakawa magnetic insoles on ebay for $4.00 . When ever I put on those slippers with the insoles, my feet seemed to feel better. When I wore them for a few hours or a whole day my feet were much improved with no pain and my feet felt great. I decided to be agressive and wear the insoles for long periods of time and my plantar fascitis dissappeared. You may poo poo magnetic therapy all you wish. THe magnets worked wonders on my feet. I am not someone who can be helped or cured by some placebo. I work in the medical field and am very critical of any "Magical Cures" or "Magical Thinking". Use your own experience to decide.
Daveed
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OK I have read most of the ignorant rants and attacks on magnet therapy.
As this is a scientific forum, how about conducting a simple experiment with magnets and a bottle of water?
Place a bottle of water, on top of a strong magnet with the north pole closest to the bottle, leave in contact with the magnet/s for 24 hours then pour yourself a nice glass full of water and drink it. Record what happens in the hours that follow and report back to this forum.
A Friend sufers from abdominal pain due to a common medical condition known as uterine fibroids. If she places magnets next to the pain, the pain completely subsides within an hour or two. If she does not use the magnets the pain continues to become more progressive.
Furthermore, there are some very obvious changes in the shape of the fibroids. The magnets appear to make the fibroids contract into a hard ball shape, and a visible reduction in size becomes obvious.
She is hoping that the magnetic field will reduce the microcirculation in the tumours in the long term. But is quite content with the effectiveness of the magnets as an extremely effective pain killer.
One possible benefit of small magnets on the fluids inside our body is the inevitable altered polarity of the fluids. This is used to great effect to improve the performance.
Anyone used a magnet to enhance the fuel consumption and performance of a car engine?
With a magnetic field we can increase the internal energy of the fuel, to cause specific changes at a molecular level. Increasing the internal energy to obtain more easier combustion. The molecules fly apart easier, join with oxygen easier and ignite easier. 'Ionization' implies that the fuel acquires a 'charge' and molecules of like charge repel each other, this makes fuel dispersal more efficient. Then if you charge the air to the opposite polarity, then the fuel and oxygen combine far quicker than 'normal'. We can obtain about:
80% -90% Reduction in Hydrocarbon emissions.
60% -80% Reduction in Carbon Monoxide emissions.
20% Reduction in Nitrogen Oxides.
10% - 40% in Consume Reduction.
8% - 60% in Increase Mileage.
http://www.tinet.org/~sje/mag_fuel.htm
My own experience with this technology is the use of one of these devices on a friends Vauxhall//Bedford CF van with a notoriously problematic opel petrol engine. This van was used to do continental house removals, often driven in excess of 2k miles continuous down to southern France and Spain and back.
On removal of the cylinder head at 280,000 miles we were astonished to find that there was absolutely no bore wear on this engine! It did however get through 3 gear boxes and a rear axle during its somewhat harduous lifestyle.
But back to the proposed experiment with a bottle of magnetised water.
Advise: Make sure you are not going to drive following imbibing the water.
Andrew
Death is natures way of telling us to slow down.
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All of these claims, and rants, contain a fatal flaw. The patient knew about the treatment. Even in double-blind studies, the placebo effect shows up, and the cure rate of the control group must be subtracted from cure rate of the treated group to give the effectiveness of the medication. We cannot assess the effectiveness of any therapy by ourselves. Whether it's copper bracelets, magnets, or aspirin, some people will improve, some will get worse, and some will have no effect. Only by careful monitoring of the whole group can the effectiveness of the medication be found.
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That's absolutely right. In medicine, patients do better just by being entered in a trial, regardless of whether you give them anything or not !
Chris
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- Groucho Marx
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Some of the science behind Magnetic Therapy:
http://www.garynull.com/Documents/magnets.htm
Its been used on animals for years. You can't trick a horse into thinking its bones are healing faster.
It will take years and years of research and studies before magnetic therapy is accepted by the medical community even if it does really work. I guess the only way you can be certain is to try it out yourself...
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The problem with waiting for a double blind trial on any alternative treatement to take place is the financial burdon it would impose on any individual or small group.
These studies are designed to prohibit anything that does not give a high financial return. The drug cartel's have cornered the globe in research and patents relating to drugs, as you well know!
There is now a massive move to remove many freely available food based alternatives off the shelves for good. There will be little to no attempt to provided these vitamins with the required investements to get them past the stringent drug orientated controls imposed by an industry that earns more than oil!
Why would they? So unless you have the insight to find out for yourselves whether a product or therapy offers a viable treatment, who the hell is going to conduct the studies to then be in a position to say take this magnet once every three hours and place it on the effected area in order to relieve pain????? When they can sell another $billion's worth of prescription drugs???
Death is natures way of telling us to slow down.
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The magnetlabs link doesn't seem to work.
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Ah. Sorry. You just need to take out the comma, which seems to have got itself included in the link.
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I had a look at the published articles section, and of the articles that I could read (not in .exe format..) and the only one that seemed like sensible research and not just publicity material had this results section
quote:
RESULTS
None of the three groups of mice experienced any differences in the measurable size or progression of their implanted tumors. There were no differences between either the “north” or the “south” conditions. Neither one of these had any significant differences in the tumor size or weight compared to the mice in the control group that were not exposed to a magnetic field from a real magnet underneath the cage.
!
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quote:
you can begin to learn of the many factual and reproducible experiments conducted there
Mmm. I don't say there *aren't* factual, reproducible results out there... but the (not very positive) results section Dave quotes is indeed the only set of results I managed to find on this site for which there is any information about the methods of the research. The other experiments Mr. Futura refers to are mentioned in the introduction.
If the experiment using weak fields and T-cell-less mice didn't work (in 1993) then I'd be interested to read about the follow-up research using mice with T-cells and/or stronger fields.
The feeling I took away from reading that paper was very much that if that was the most positive paper the website authors could find to post then I wasn't convinced.
If they *could* find more positive material, why weren't they posting it, or at least referencing it in their articles list for people to look up if they're interested?
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Something a bit odd is going on here with the board.
My "new posts" view has shown posts from Mr. Futura at least three times since my last post, the latest at 20:30, but I can't actually see any of them.
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I understand that there is very little scientific proof that magnetic therapy actually works. I've been trying to find if there were any on the internet. I managed to find articles whereby people condemn the product and the concept behind it and I also found testimonials by satisfied customers. I've also seen a video about a doctor using magnetic therapy on his patients and actually helping them. It also came to my attenion that 2 people I know, one a diabetic and the other with hepatitis B got cured. HOW DID THAT HAPPEN????? I'm confused... I was definitely astounded with that fact, but I still do not know what kind of conlusion to make about magnetic therapy.
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If you'd like to read about some magnet therapy studies, go to www.therionresearch.com. They have many of them on their website. Still, the best source of information is the Albert Roy Davis Research Laboratory (www.magnetlabs.com). They've been doing research for nearly 70 years. Davis was the first scientist in the world to discover that magnetism consists of two separate and distinct energies, not one. You must be absolutely certain that you are not being exposed to the South pole energy, whether you're using a static magnet or an electromagnet. South pole energy is very dangerous. If you buy magnets, buy unipolar ceramic magnets. ONLY the North pole of a magnet should be used. The small neodymium magnets are not very effective. They're too small and they don't put out a strong magnetic field.
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quote:
Originally posted by Donnah
Anybody know about magnetism and magnetic therapy? Or how magnetism affects the human body?
hi magnetism is supposed to increase blood flow to the affected/injured part therefore healing it quicker.
i use magnets alot and am beginning to be attracted to them (ha ha) no seriously they do work.
ta ta x[:D][:p]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ylide
Yeah, Alice, you're absolutely right. Your body generally maintains its pH balance on its own just fine. If it didn't, you'd have bigger issues than just arthritis and fatigue. pH is maintained by a carbonate/carbonic acid buffer system in your blood. CO2 from respiration is generated continually, which them partially dissociates to form carbonate and bicarbonate, the other half of the buffer. None of these substances are paramagnetic. (i.e. they are not affected by a magnetic field)
They're claiming to catalyze biochemical reactions in the body with a little wrist magnet...I can't believe that it's even legal to make that claim.
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Ylide,
Author Robert R. Barefoot (The Calcium Factor)says on page 100 of his book: "The magnetic field induces the [calcium] bicarbonate bonding to bend and break producing hydroxides, thereby creating a negative, or alkaline pH extracellular fluid." Then on page 105 para. 2, he adds: "The earth's one gauss magnetic field has the effect of causing the pH of the extracellular fluids to "gently rise" similar to the effects of the magnetic beds, as bicarbonates and carbonates are converted to hydroxides and soluble carbon dioxide. For example, when water at a pH of 7.5 is passed through a 7000 gauss magnetic field, its pH dramatically increases to about 9.2."
My question is two-fold: Does calcium bicarbonate break into hydroxides and CO2; and if so will a low gauss, nonalternating magnetic field be conducive to proper blood pH?
Thanks,
M. Cameron
quote:
Originally posted by Ylide
Yeah, Alice, you're absolutely right. Your body generally maintains its pH balance on its own just fine. If it didn't, you'd have bigger issues than just arthritis and fatigue. pH is maintained by a carbonate/carbonic acid buffer system in your blood. CO2 from respiration is generated continually, which them partially dissociates to form carbonate and bicarbonate, the other half of the buffer. None of these substances are paramagnetic. (i.e. they are not affected by a magnetic field)
They're claiming to catalyze biochemical reactions in the body with a little wrist magnet...I can't believe that it's even legal to make that claim.
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I must admit I find magnetic therapy very attractive......................................sorry !(hee hee)
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Watches tend to stop if I wear them regularly. I've been wearing five small hematite bracelets (naturally magnetic) on my watch wrist and that watch still works several months later.
Andrew K. Fletcher, if we use north polarity in the northern hemisphere, do we use south polarity in the southern hemisphere?
"Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms." - Audrey Hepburn
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For years I have suffered much pain with an arthritic knee and could not work more than a few yards at a time without experiencing great pain. I read an article somewhere about the positive effect of magnets and cutting out any of those expensibe sites selling btacelets etc, I bought a sheet of 6 magnets in the local hardware store very cheaply.
I have stuck a magnetic either side of my knee joint with strong double sided sticky tape. I was amazed that the pain disapeared almost immediately and have been walking now without any pain; even walking a three mile jaunt last week!
The only trouble is that when I took them off, the pain returned!. But as I am only into the 'cure' for three weeks so maybe I might be able to take them off, come the summer, when I have to start wearing shorts!
Forget placebo effect! It really does works for me!
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Hello, I'm very interested in magnets as I'm a student chiropractor. Your chat site had some interesting facts so I thought I'd just go out and buy some magnets and sleep on them to see what affect it has on a healthy body. I've purchased bulk standard fish tank cleaner magnets, pulled them apart and placed them under the sheet of my bed. In total I have 12 2cmx2cm magnets under my sheet and I will increase this by 12 each week for 5 weeks and tell you what has happened. How does that sound?
And what do you think will be the outcome ?
doris
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>Hello, I'm very interested in magnets as I'm a student chiropractor....
>And what do you think will be the outcome ?
Most likely, in about ten years you will recall your experiment and say to yourself, "What the heck was I thinking?"
Respectfully,
Greg
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Hey Neil Check out Nikken Products, they should have some statistics and studies done that their products are based on. My husband and I have actually been to many of their little siminar things and at one point became dealers only to help a friend. They really had some compelling statistics. I don't know if it is something you can find out about over there, but I don't see why not. We tried several products and were very impressed. That was a long time ago and we no longer have an interest as far as selling products, but we have used some of them with some sucess. I am interested in more info. I know they had alot more clinical study type things when we were attending. Who knows though, we never went any further then trying some of the products. You recieved quite a discount for buying a yearly membership. Interesting stuff though.
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Okay I know it hasn't been 10 years but my little experiment seems to be gaining structure. I purchased 200 rare earth magnets about the sizr of a 2 pence piece. The individual strength of each magnet is 2500 gauss. I'm wearing 5 on each side of my body and sleeping on 10 durng the night. I'm increasing the amount I sleep on by 10 each week.
So far this has had a very calming effect on my body and I have definately felt a reduction of aches and pains that were in my body. I have not had a total reduction of pain however, and if I do an 18 mile walk I still haveaches but my recovery seems to be quicker.
I know of the company nikken but they do not tell you how many magnets, the type of magnets or the strength of indivdual magnets in a product therefore the total strength of a product is a mystery.
Are there optimum gauss levels and/or quantities of magnets for individuals?
Do the magnetic suppliers need to be more accurate in thier prescription of magnets to taylor them per user?
Does the effectivness of magnet depend on body mass?
These are just a few questions I have and it seems the more I increase the amount of magnets around me the better I feel, promting more questions WHY
doris
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Hi Doris,
What magnetic poles have you got facing your body?
Have you been wearing the magnets continually for 24 hrs?
quote:
Are there optimum gauss levels and/or quantities of magnets for individuals?
Magnets used in sleep systems are usually ceramic as they are far less costly than the neodymium magnets and can therefore be built in to larger items such as matress pads; each ceramic magnet used in sleep systems are normally above 3,000 core gauss, this promotes relaxation and aids in the stimulation of the pineal gland.
Depending on the size of your matress, determines the amount of static magnets in the pad, i.e a kingsize pad will have more than a single size pad.
I have a single pad on my bed that contains 300 magnets with a 3,950 core gauss / 800-1100 surface gauss.
quote:
Do the magnetic suppliers need to be more accurate in thier prescription of magnets to taylor them per user?
A lot of magnetic therapy suppliers are sales people and have done little or no training in the field of biomagnetic therapy and therefore should not give advice on how to use them for medical or therapeutical purpouses.
The rule of thumb is to listen to your own body, only you can tell whether the magnets have had any effect on your body.
You can either place negative pole magnets on the point of pain for 15-20 minutes twice a day for a couple of weeks or untill a complete reduction in pain is noticed.
Or you could keep the magnet on for 24 hrs untill a reduction in pain is noticed.
If wearing a magnet for a considered length of time, take a few days off as to prevent your body becoming accustomed to the magnetic energy.
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Does the effectivness of magnet depend on body mass?
Not really, top quallity neodymium magnets with a CORE rating of 12,300 gauss and a SURFACE gauss of 1,200 have an impact of 3-6 inches on the skin in both radius and depth of penetration.
Remember the human body is an incredible piece of equipement and can often repair itself, magnet therapy may be able assist with this process.
Blue75
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Until a few years ago I was highly skeptical towards the claims of health benefits from magnetic therapy and then as part of my previous job i got to regularly visit a company selling MagneTech products. After a while i got to know the owner and so i voiced my opinions in an honest but polite way not wishing to upset him.
He listened and said it was OK as most people have the same opinion as me and only change their minds when they use magnetic therapy usually as a last resort.
He then took me into his dispatch office and showed me the walls which were totally covered with letters from people from all around the world thanking his company for their help and how their products had relieved there symptoms after many years of suffering often after their doctors couldn't help except for prescribing pain relief. He then opened a filing cabinet and showed me hundreds more, there were draws full of them.
Even so i'm still not totally convinced as there could be things like the placebo effect going on but now at least i would be prepared to use magnetic therapy products as a last resort whereas before i wouldn't have even entertained the idea.
Maybe if it wern t for the high cost of the products then more people would try magnetic therapy and then maybe we would know whether there is any truth behind the health benifit claims.
Michael
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quote:
Even so i'm still not totally convinced as there could be things like the placebo effect going on but now at least i would be prepared to use magnetic therapy products as a last resort whereas before i wouldn't have even entertained the idea.
If you tell a human that something will work, then most of the time it will (or at least they belive it will), if you could bottle and sell the placebo effect then you would be a rich man[:D].
But animals have no idea about the placebo effect, horses have been treated with magnet therapy with good results.
Now the argument could be that the injury may have healed by itself, but magnets may benefit this process.
The NHS has recently approved the use of magnetic wraps in the treatment of leg ulcers, so hopefully more methods of magnetic treatments will be approved by them in the near future.
Providing the negative pole of the magnet is used towards the body, then magnet therapy is safe to use, excluding the following: pregnant and lactating women. People fitted with a battery operated implant such as a pace maker, defibrillators, insulin pumps or other electro-insulin devices. People fitted with cobalt based implants.
Magnet Therapy will either work for you or it will not.
Blue75
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Greg I've now read up on neodymium, cobalt and a assortment of other magnets. I'm using N45 25mm dia x 3mm discs. I am as you suggested using the north facing pole to my body and I'm now sleeping on 80 magnets that I purchased directly from a magnet supplier for 0.42pence each.
I have also conducted some other experiments using stronger magnets positioned on the body and then introduced ethanol (alcohol) to the body to see if it had any affect on reducing toxins.
I was abosolutely amazed with the outcome and more experiments will follow, without a doubt.[:0]
I have been without pain since I started using the neodymium magnets and have a considerable success with friends who are willing to experiment with me. This is NOT expensive at all if you go direct to the supplier and avoid using fancy labled products were the company have put thier logo on a magnet.[8D]
doris
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I have been using magnets for several years with good success,as a part of a Kinesiology session. The magnets are low strength ,about 250 gz- but several are used at the same time in conjunction with stimulating acupuncture points.
I don't recommend wearing or sleeping with strong magnets and also not to use purely for pain relief without looking at the underlying reasons for pain as its the way our body communicates with us!
Hope this is of interest,
Jay
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Hello friends!
I want to post little bit infomation about it
Magnetotherapy is the application of static, variable and pulse magnetic fields with various characteristics for curative and preventive effect.
Magnetotherapy is one of the oldest therapeutic methods along with photo- and thermotherapy used for the treatment of different diseases.
Magneto-therapy could be really effective only if you use it properly.Anyway read about if first and after that you can make your own opinion
As for me I read information here [Spam-/garbage- link removed] .So REMEMBER,LEARN AS MUCH AS YOU CAN FIRST.
Regards Hazel
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So, a lot of conflicting information here. Some say North pole, some say South, some say positive some say negative.
One says it either works for you or it doesn't.
I can see strong AC current electromagnetism is used for wound healing and stimulating the body's own repair systems for bone fractures, by some mainstream medical practicioners (after all, it can't do any harm can it?) but can you really liken a static wristband magnet to a strong AC field? There's a lot of pseudoscience going on which is clouding a sensible, reasoned debate here, and there's a lot of placebo power going on which I suspect is the over-riding contributory factor.
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This from Ben Goldacre's Bad Science Blog:"Amusing to see that the NHS Prescription Pricing Authority have apparently put Magnet Bandages on the formulary:
www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2058902,00.html
(Even more amusing to see the Times mentioning that old “iron in blood is magnetic” chestnut again).
What’s interesting to me about this is that it may be the first time the PPA have put something on the NHS formulary on cost effectiveness grounds, but in the full knowledge that it very demonstrably, in well conducted trials, only works as a placebo, as the recent BMJ paper (amongst others) showed.
I ought to say I have no problem with placebos, I think they’re very effective, and it’s very much a contemporary cultural peculiarity that means medics don’t make use of the effect any more."
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"and it certainly can't hurt "
except financially,
and by lulling people into a false sense of security and by undermining the importance of clear thinking.
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There's the paradox. No disputing the Placebo effect is well documented and very powerful, but it relies on people believing it, not understanding it is a placebo. It's like the tooth fairy, as soon as you don't believe and see the lack of firm proper science behind it, you cease to get the coin under the pillow. Without the buy-in the effect loses its power. Where it goes astray morally is where companies prey on this to extract large sums of money from people. Yet if the sums are significant, and the treatments more intrusive, the studies (reported in Ben's book) tend to show the placebo effect works even stronger as the buy-in is greater.
Sadly I think its a load of bunkum so it will never work for me.
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... the Placebo effect is well documented and very powerful
Only when the outcome is a subjective self-assessment, not where an objective measurement can be made ...
We found little evidence in general that placebos had powerful clinical effects. Although placebos had no significant effects on objective or binary outcomes, they had possible small benefits in studies with continuous subjective outcomes and for the treatment of pain. Outside the setting of clinical trials, there is no justification for the use of placebos.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200105243442106
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To back up RD's point; this is from the abstract of the Cochrane Review on Placebos
Placebo interventions are often claimed to substantially improve many clinical conditions. However, most reports on effects of placebos are based on unreliable studies that have not randomised patients to placebo or no treatment.
We studied the effect of placebo treatments by reviewing 202 trials comparing placebo treatment with no treatment covering 60 healthcare problems. In general, placebo treatments produced no major health benefits, although on average they had a modest effect on outcomes reported by patients, such as pain. However, the effect on pain varied from large to non-existent, even in well-conducted trials. Variations in the effect of placebo was partly explained by variations in how trials were conducted, the type of placebo used, and whether patients were informed that the trial involved placebo.
You can read the whole report Placebo interventions for all clinical conditions (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD003974.pub3/abstract;jsessionid=C23A511DD0F6C584D43C4483AFA6AAB5.d01t03)
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I find the administration of placebos to be an exercise in condescension (as well-meaning as that may sometimes be). People always have a reason for seeking medical help. I believe most ailments have emotional origins such as a subconscious need for attention, or a feeling of anxiety or desperation stemming from a feeling of powerlessness. People who feel disempowered will naturally go to someone they see as more powerful than themselves (authority figure) to seek answers. But the fact that they have made an effort to find answers is a good sign. At that point the most beneficial path is to teach people to empower themselves, which I'm happy to see is a growing skill in our world.
More than anything, I think people need kindness (a form of caring/love). The world can be a pretty rough place to live sometimes, and a kind word or touch or even just listening to someone spill their woes can make people feel better. The tricky bit is discerning the line between helping and enabling. Like the difference between a wheel spinning in place in a rut, or a wheel bumping up out of the rut and moving on down the road.