Naked Science Forum

Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: chris on 17/10/2009 22:30:18

Title: Is the LHC indulging in self-saboutage?
Post by: chris on 17/10/2009 22:30:18: News reports have been published this week quoting at least two scientists saying that the LHC keeps breaking down because, by doing so, it's preventing a disruption in the space time continuum, or something like that.

So what do we think of that then?

Chris
Title: Is the LHC indulging in self-saboutage?
Post by: Mr. Scientist on 17/10/2009 23:56:16: Link perhaps?
Title: Is the LHC indulging in self-saboutage?
Post by: JP on 18/10/2009 00:32:19: Here's one of the links:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/science/space/13lhc.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1

The basic idea (and I'm not well-versed in the fine details) seems to be that since the basic laws of physics would seem to work just fine if time were reversed, one might assume that the fact that we're here now means that our current universe could have evolved backwards in time from a future state of the universe just as well as it could have evolved forwards in time from the big bang. If that's the case, then we couldn't do anything now that would change that future universe, since that would cause all sorts of paradoxes.

Again, I'm not versed in all the details, but I wonder how this hypothesis deals with the fact that there already exist particles that have higher energies than anything we could create in the LHC. Presumably those could be making Higgs particles already. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-energy_cosmic_ray)
Title: Is the LHC indulging in self-saboutage?
Post by: LeeE on 18/10/2009 11:24:34: I think it's a bit silly.

The problem with this idea is that a very broad low-level law i.e. preventing a disruption in the spacetime continuum, is resulting in very specific high-level consequence i.e. the failure of a particular electrical connection, without there being a direct causality link between the two. For this to work there would need to be an intermediate agent that chooses which specific failure, out of a broad range of possible failures, is manifested.
Title: Is the LHC indulging in self-saboutage?
Post by: Vern on 18/10/2009 13:46:07: There might be some folks working at the LHC that would rather it not go on line. We seem to have failed mightily in our vetting processes lately.
Title: Is the LHC indulging in self-saboutage?
Post by: graham.d on 18/10/2009 17:33:32: It is really a very complicated piece of kit. I don't think it is to be unexpected that there will be difficulties in getting it running. I suspect this self-censorship rumour started as a joke.
Title: Is the LHC indulging in self-saboutage?
Post by: Geezer on 18/10/2009 19:41:59: Were the two scientists Dr Gilbert and Dr Sullivan perchance? They seem to love paradoxes.
Title: Is the LHC indulging in self-saboutage?
Post by: BenV on 18/10/2009 23:13:04: If it is/was disrupting itself from the future/present, it obviously hasn't/will not do/done a very good job..
Title: Is the LHC indulging in self-saboutage?
Post by: Geezer on 18/10/2009 23:40:18: Quote from: graham.d on 18/10/2009 17:33:32
It is really a very complicated piece of kit.

....and the prize for understatement of the week goes to.....drum roll.....graham.d!!!

(I sent for a job application to work at CERN a very long time ago. I never did send it back - probably something to do with getting kicked out of O-level French - but I sometimes wonder what it would have been like to have worked there.)
Title: Is the LHC indulging in self-saboutage?
Post by: Don_1 on 19/10/2009 17:40:20: I applied for a job at the LHC next year.

I start my new job last year.
Title: Is the LHC indulging in self-saboutage?
Post by: yor_on on 23/10/2009 08:20:22: "Dr. Nielson said of the theory, “Well, one could even almost say that we have a model for God.” It is their guess, he went on, “that He rather hates Higgs particles, and attempts to avoid them.”

Yep, I do :)
Title: Is the LHC indulging in self-saboutage?
Post by: Vern on 23/10/2009 13:38:16: Google turns up lots of referencesThis one seems to be the most (http://www.sott.net/articles/show/195276-A-particle-God-doesn-t-want-us-to-discover) looked at. The quote below is a sample. I suspect it is rather foolish. Time probably operates the way it seems to operate, going from present to future with no slowing, reversing, or speeding up.

Quote from: the link
He explained that if Nielsen's predictions were correct then whatever was stopping the LHC would also be stopping high-energy rays hitting the atmosphere. Since scientists can directly detect many such rays, "Nielsen must be wrong", said Gillies.

He and others also believe that although such ideas have an element of fun, they risk distracting attention from the far more amazing ideas that the LHC will tackle once it gets going.

The Higgs boson, for example, is thought to give all other matter its mass, without which gravity could not work. If the LHC found the Higgs, it would open the door to solving all kinds of other mysteries about the origins and nature of matter. Another line of research aims to detect dark matter, which is thought to comprise about a quarter of the universe's mass, but made out of a kind of particle that has so far proven impossible to detect.