Naked Science Forum
General Science => General Science => Topic started by: neilep on 18/05/2006 03:48:45
-
It is a fascinating circumstance that leads to an event leaving such a strong impression on the mind that recollection of the event and details of it can be so clear.
Even though the event may be many years ago.
.......It is most common in times of shock and disbelief.
.....You are witness to the reality and your mind then commences a tug of war with the comprehension of the facts. Is it real or is it fantasy ?
..... Gradually, acceptance of reality imprints itself and this struggle indelibly sets the memory. It is akin to very mild form of trauma.
..Even years later one still reacts with aghast and disbelief but the truth prevails and this just increases the memory's longevity.
.......Can someone explain the biology of this ?...Is it literally a stregthening of a memory engram ?
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
-
its not always bad things,i look at my little girl and remember how i felt holding her at birth,i still fill up two years later,what a fantastic feeling,i will keep it all my life,[^]
http://www.armybarmy.org
-
Absolutely right there Ray.
Without a doubt there are many many happy events that also imprint an indelible memory.
However, I think it's a reasonable observation that happy memories that imprint are most of the times events that you have personally participated in whereas the memories I'm referring too are those on a grander scale, ie 9/11....7/7...and Princess Diana for example.......
...I think it's an unfortunate consequence that bad news is always more prevalent than good news and it's that instant shock which acts as the memory glue !!..if you know what I mean.
Ray...those first few seconds after the birth of your child....it's the only example of the true meaning of ' Love at first sight ' I have experienced..I am sure it's the same for you....what an amazing awe inspiring event eh ?
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
-
You know Neil, I quite agree about the shock thing being the glue. You have read alot of my posts and know from whence I am speaking when talking about bad experiences in childhood. It is so true what you said about how that shock acts as a memory glue. I think that one dwells on bad things for so long that the brain replays the instance over and over again until the memory has been so coated with the myelin That forms around the nerves that carry our memories, that it does become embedded.
As an infant the process of repetition is how we as humans learn. Take for instance, sorry about the subject matter, " molestation." The instance does not have to happen more then once to leave that kind of memory so strong in your mind. The fact is the shock of the incidence causes your brain to replay the scene over and over again, I think because it is trying to figure out where in the world would I store this act as I haven't developed a catagory or event that equals the trama. It shakes your foundation of how you learned a safe loving act should be. It doesn't fit in to your pre- established memories and so the brain has to look for a new place to stash that memory away from others, and it has to remember it in order to establish the permanant memory. Perhaps as a defence mechanism, who knows!
It is utterly facinating how the brain works, there are so many details I left out, but it is something I have been facinated with , as I have the oportunity to work with children and see this process on a regular basis. I bet it does have to do with strenghting the memory engram.
You know when something bothers you alot, you just can't get it out of your mind? Neil you know how you have such a hard time sleeping? Do you ever find that you have a million things going round in your head so that you just can't sleep. I do that alot. There are lists of things running through my mind and even though I know they can wait and be dealt with at another time , the old brain kicks into overtime and starts this process up to the extent, at least for me, that I can't even sleep and I find my self wiped out, but unable to nod off. This also happens to me, especially in times of trama or stress. I believe it depends on what your body can handle as far as stress and trama go.
Some maybe find a minor disagreement with loved one or co-worker a trama, but for others its a walk in the park and their brain just kicks it out like it were nothing. Others it effects more seriously. I wonder if it is because of lack of or too much exposure to those things as a child that causes this.
Maybe my exposure and lack of problem solving at that point in my childhood left it so unresolved it just hung there until my mind could reason with it on a level that really made since to me as an adult. Maybe, some experience so much unresolved trama, that it just looms over them for so long that the memory becomes more intense and real as time goes on. Eventually making you have to deal with it! As a child I don't think I had the tools or facilities to deal with it so your brain kind of isolates it and keeps it off in the back, for some it takes over everything and for others, it just pushes it so far back and under things that they block the memory intirely. It depends on how we have been equipt to solve or handle things. You try to tell yourself it wasn't real for a long time, but the memory haunts you like a bad dream. For some of us we don't handle them at all, for others we just ignore the trama, and still others immediately begin to deal. I began to deal right after the incident outwardly, but have just started to be able to deal with these things inwardly over the last couple of years. I really believe these feelings do become so intense that they stay with us and thus the shock, as being the "glue" as you put it, or then the shock and then the Myelination process would be accountable for that permanant memory........Karen
-
NEIL-Remember the Chicken in My Wagon?.......Defineitely the shock factor making that one so vivid!
-
Karen...what can I say ?...a wonderful post by a truly wonderful human being. It's wonderful for the benefit of this site that you have spread your wings from the zeta thread and we all thank you for that.[:)]
Yes, I remember the chicken/wagon...agreed about the shock thing.
...there are instances of course when the brain just closes down and the event is completely set aside, not forgotten, just subdued...and this is certainly a case of a trauma extreme.....
...If I may use a geological term, the ' subduction ' of such a memory serves as a protection but also inhibits acceptance and the ability to deal with the cirumstances. Perhaps allowing enough time for the person to be able to (at least) try and understand and cope with it.....this could be years and years later on....and even then it may take months of therapy to bring the memory out and for the real healing to commence.
Karen...Thank you young lady..[:)]
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
-
Neil I am so in awe of how you think, I thought I was all alone sometimes and it is so amazing how much we have in common. You are so right about the time.
It is so nice to talk with someone who understands what I am saying and doesn't brush it off as if it were jibberish, or taboo!
Oh, he hath called me young Lady, Oh my heart be still, what a compliment! Sir, it is such a pleasure!,
This site makes me feel a bit like a caterpillar.! [:D]Karen
-
blushing ! [:I]
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
-
Neil,
Aren't memories funny? I have often thought about that over the years , and I don't believe as a child one is set up to handle emotional stresses as well as one is at an older more mentally developed age, for the obvious reasons, as you said. Life skills are so important to teach children and alot of lifeskills are best learned through experience.
You know, I hate some of the things that happened to me as a child, but I am greatful to have been able to learn some valuable tools to help myself as well as others to perhaps over come things that seem impossible. I am not saying I am greatful they happened, but, that in it, I developed some pretty good life skills and have been able to pass them to my children so this kind of a thing will be less likely to happen to their children in the future.
Do you remember the old Barbara Striesand tune Memories? I think that those lines were written by someone who has developed some pretty good life skills during their life time.
It's the laughter we will remember, when we remember.... Kind of like the good things in life. Takes me back to an old memory of a poem I had published while in High school!
Only one moment of your time,
Only one spark of your life,
Only the little things matter,
Only the good things in life!
No matter where I go in my life, or after and I do believe in after, I have already visited there. I only hope that it will be the good memories I take with me to remember. The after is also a memory, the earliest one I can remember, and it is still with me as if it were yesterday, and that is why I believe as I do. So someday I will tell you about it!.....Karen
-
I have to say I am a Streisand fan.....she is seriously under appreciated I think....what a voice !!
Karen, those awful things which happened...although you hate some of them, as you have said, they helped you learn valuable lessons which now as a consequence have helped you nurture those around you......
...... It's bizarre really because without those events in your life you would probably not be the 'Karen' that we all know and love.
Despite those events Karen, they have indeed moulded you (or part of you at least) to become the person you are today....in fact, are we not all products of our past ?
Memories are funny...we need them though...else we'd not be able to survive if we couldn't remember anything !
It is extraordinary , that even though we may pride ourselves with our ability to think and reason , that as humans (of any age) we find certain events so difficult to comprehend, that we just can not fathom them....and so...these events are put into storage for later analysis.
Our ability to disbelieve what we see and question the sanity/reality of what we witness is truly astonishing.....and though we know we have the ability to use reason and rationale...some basic instinct inside kind of takes over somehow.
Mam, if you were to exist without your nasty memories do you not think it would change you from being YOU ?
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
-
It would most likely do just that! Maybe some for the better and some for the worse. It is really quite a big question you ask, and I must ponder it awhile!......Karen
-
After much pondering I think yes it would indeed change me from being me, but I would also value the oportunity to try the other road and perhaps see if some of those changes would have been for the better! I think that some of those tramatic memories makes one more aware of things and also makes one more critical and a bit more synical in the way one looks at the world. It has taken me years of seeing and meeting other people who are the kind of people you wish to be around and they try to do the right things. I think there would have been less heart ache if things had been different and perhaps less guilt on my own soul for harboring deep seeded hate in my heart for many years. It really weakens the spirit and soul and weighs heavy on ones conscience when one hates with such furver, it is not healthy and I think there is alot to be said for learning to forgive oneself, but you can't do that until you have let go of the hate! That is something I should of learned as a child but could not as I was using the hate as a shield. Its hard to explain and I don't think I even have a full grip on it myself, but I do have a hold on the reins and I am learning to steer this old horse in the directon of help and understanding. I hope to someday understand alot more and perhaps be better able to explain myself!...Karen
-
Hey Neil, back in mid May you started this thread, and I was wondering, Do you have a memory tramatic or otherwise which prompted you to pose the Question about the memory engram ? Explain the biology of it? I was just wondering what made you think to ask that particular question the way you did..........Karen
-
Hey Neil, back in mid May you started this thread, and I was wondering, Do you have a memory tramatic or otherwise which prompted you to pose the Question about the memory engram ? Explain the biology of it? I was just wondering what made you think to ask that particular question the way you did..........Karen
-
quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.
Hey Neil, back in mid May you started this thread, and I was wondering, Do you have a memory tramatic or otherwise which prompted you to pose the Question about the memory engram ? Explain the biology of it? I was just wondering what made you think to ask that particular question the way you did..........Karen
Thank you Mam,
As far as I know, I have not suffered a trauma that would lead to memory loss !!..but then...if I have forgotten it ..I would not know [:)]...but...in my 'knowing world ' The most traumatic event for me was last year during the London bombings.....I was clearly shaken to have been in the position where if my timing had been off by half an hour I would have been in that bus or the Kings Cross tubes (trains)...both (at the time) were two routes that I took to work....I walked home that morning....with many others !
However, that was not the catalyst for my initial post....just curiosity Mam...that's all.
thanks for asking though.[:)]
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
-
OH my Gosh! That must have been very frightening! That is crazy! I am very glad that you were spared, and understand how that would shake ones foundation!!
Karen