Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => Topic started by: modern on 31/07/2009 04:27:18
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Recently I found some shells within my bed which contained tiny larva. Upon investigation I found out they were tinea larva which are otherwise known as case making moths.
I have developed a worry since, that these larva due to being found in my bed could have infected me.
The only possible way they could infect I imagine, if they were to enter the anal passage. I now have this somewhat irrational fear that they could make their way to the heart and cause damage to the conduction system.
I know this isn't all heart related but I would appreciate if you could use your expertise to help me overcome this worry and answer the following:
Do you think these type of creatures could get through the anal sphincter muscle and make their way to the heart? I know it would be unlikely if they got into the vascular system as they are 'air breathers' and would likely drown. But could they travel to the heart by penetrating the colon/intestinal wall and make their way through a non-vascular route? Or would there be too much blood, fluid, fat even, for them to make their way using this route?
If somehow, they did make it to the heart, do you think they could possibly attack the electric system? What do you think the initial symptoms of this would be?
I very much appreciate your help with this concern I have, however irrational it may be!
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No moth species ever before have invaded the human body and caused heart problems. They just don't do that.
They eat textil, why would they want to get into you? They would die in that environment instantly, they have no means to travel or survive in the human body, and they can't mess with your heart either.
If you have heart related simptoms, visit a cardiologost, he will tell you what could've caused your problems and more importantly, how to get better.
They wont make you any harm. Maybe they will ruin some of your clothes or bedshiet, but definitly not your heart.
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There are no cardio-symptoms. I'm referring to the larva specifically and not the moth. What would happen hypothetically if they crawled in through the anal passage? This is my irrational worry. What makes you certain they couldn't survive in that environment? I know they wouldn't in the vascular system but how about anywhere else internally?
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The intestines of a human is really hostile environment for a moth. No air, nothing to eat, high contentration of bacteria, unbreathable gases, even digestive enzymes. Warmer temperature then outside, intestinal motility, aggressive immune system... It would be hell on earth for a moth larva.
There are some parasites that can survive those kinds of conditions, but they are highly specialized, parasitic creatures.
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There is a recognised medical condition where people have an irrational belief they are being parasitized...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_parasitosis
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Appreciate that, but is it physiologically impossible all the same? Any experts on here that can give definitive answers?
Thanks.
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The anal sphincter tends to remain closed until there is sufficient pressure on the inside (usually from gas or faecal build-up), or voluntary control, to cause it to open. Unless you suffer from faecal incontinence (I'm guessing you would know), it'd be unlikely for caterpillars to have free access to your rectum. If they did somehow manage to squeeze their way through, the pressure against the sphincter muscle would tend to cause a reflex evacuation of rectal contents, sending the little creatures back out into the cold.
Either way, I would think an infection ascending via the anal route would be fairly uncommon. They would be far more likely to enter via your mouth and nose.
Belief of being parasitised is not irrational. We ARE parasitised.
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Thanks Square.
But how do you explain tapeworms. I've read they can exit the anus to lay eggs outside of the anus. Can they penetrate the sphincter muscle because they are going from the inside out? Not that I'm concerned with these creatures as they exist happily in the intestines.
Do you think tinea larvae could reach the heart via a non vascular or intestinal route?
Thanks.
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"But how do you explain tapeworms."
You swallow the eggs. The worms remain inside and lay their eggs; these make their way out in the normal way of things.
"Belief of being parasitised is not irrational. We ARE parasitised."
In general, yes; by moths, no.
Any moth larva that found itself (however it managed it) in the human gut (at either end) would be doomed. The lack of oxygen would kill it practically instantly.
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"Any moth larva that found itself (however it managed it) in the human gut (at either end) would be doomed."
When you say 'either end', are you referring to the lower colon - where the larva would enter first?
Thanks.
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You need to realist that, without some of our parasites, we would not survive. They do all sorts of stuff to help us live. They can be our (mutually) friends.
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The larva of this moth is a caterpillar, not some sort of maggot, and simply could have no way of forcing it's way through a tightened sphincter. Maggots are designed to be able to tease their way into crevices - caterpillars cannot.
This is what the offending beastie looks like:
[ Invalid Attachment ]
See? A Caterpillar.
In many cultures insects, including caterpillars, are eaten as a matter of course. If one was to be artificially positioned in your gut (which is the only way I can envisage it happening - at that end, at least) then it would certainly die rather quickly. The sides of the large intestine are in contact with the faeces, thus enabling peristaltic propulsion. There is no 'crawling space' between the faeces and the gut wall and the caterpillar (dead) would be ejected with your next poo. However, if the caterpillar was able to miraculously get higher up the gut than the colon it would be digested! Just as they are in the cultures that eat them.
Finally, the gut is a more or less closed system. If you put a little robotic caterpillar in your gut it could crawl around for as long as you like and will never reach a point where it can turn left into a blood vessel and then on to your heart. Obviously blood and faeces/digestive juices do not directly mix at any place in your body.
... but is it physiologically impossible all the same?
I think I can confidently say IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.
Please be reassured. This fear is irrational.
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"Any moth larva that found itself (however it managed it) in the human gut (at either end) would be doomed."
When you say 'either end', are you referring to the lower colon - where the larva would enter first?
Thanks.
I was using the word "gut" imprecisely. I could imagine someone swallowing a larva and thereby introducing it to the top end ot the alimentary canal. Since some carepillars are toxic, it might not be the only one in trouble; but it would be in trouble anyway.
Arent the things that we need to live called symbionts or even mutualists rather than parasites (which are pathogenss by deffinition)?
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Arent the things that we need to live called symbionts or even mutualists rather than parasites (which are pathogenss by deffinition)?
I thought there was some very muddy water between the two - certain parasites in certain people in certain doses have a beneficial effect on the immune system (at least where autoimmunity is concerned) but the same load in a different person would be pathogenic?
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Thanks for your generous response John - It has gone a long way in reassuring me, for which, I am grateful.
Are you familiar with these creatures I am referring to, or are you an expert in the field of caterpillars?
Do you think if they miraculously got past the anal sphincter, could it then be possible for them to penetrate the colon wall and thus have free access to get to any organ in the body?
Thanks again.
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Did you read the bit where I said "The lack of oxygen would kill it practically instantly."?
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Yes - but I have placed some in a cup of water for more than two hours. And when I removed them they began to move about! Although I have been told they are air breathers, they can obviously exist without oxygen for some time. Though while they were submerged they didn't seem to be mobile or struggling in any way, just static.
This brings me back to the question if they did get past the sphincter muscle would the lack of oxygen render them useless or would they have a few hours to cause some damage?
thanks.
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Fish breathe oxygen.
There's plenty dissolved in most water.
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But aren't fish specially adapted to breathe oxygen in water, where as a caterpillar larva wouldn't have that capability?
Is there no source of oxygen whatsoever in the lower colon? And scientifically, are you quite sure about this?
Thanks.
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Here are some things that can be damaging to your health:
- Smoking and consuming too much alcohol
- The cold Vacuum of space
- Sharp edged things
- Unsafe sex with unknown partner
- A hungry tiger
- *worrying too much*
Here are some things that CAN NOT hurt your health in any way:
- Adequate exercise
- Having the needed amount of fruits and vegetables in the diet
- a well deserved good night sleep
- listening to the Naked Scientists Show weekly
- *clothing moths*
The above things are just examples, don't get fooled by the sizes of the lists, there are approximately the same number of things in the world that will and will not hurt you, but clothing moths were always in the top three of "The things that pose the least threat to human health".
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Hi Modern.
Yes, you are right. Many insects can survive for surprising lengths of time under water. I once put a live cat flea in a glass of water so that I could kill it without damaging it. It seemed less effort than unpacking my killing jar from under the bed. 3 days (yes, THREE DAYS) later while I was preparing it for the microscope the bloody thing got up and hopped away! However, this isn’t the same as surviving without oxygen. What happened is that it’s little breathing tubes (it’s spiracles) were blocked off by water without filling. Just enough oxygen in the water then defused into it’s spiracles to keep it alive in suspended animation. As soon as I dried it off the spiracles unblocked and fresh air diffused back in. In the case of your Tinea pellionella this could not happen. The colon’s main job is to reabsorb liquid from poo and is a relatively dry oxygen free environment. Also remember that while the caterpillar (or flea) was in water it was unconscious. But the main thing the caterpillar would have going against it is that it is soft bodied and would simply be squashed as the peristaltic waves of muscle contraction run down the gut wall.
There is a more pertinent question, though, and that is why would the caterpillar want to enter your body? True, they are carnivorous but they are not meat eaters, as such. That is they eat mainly keratin, the stuff that wool, hair and fingernails are made of. They are shy by nature and live in their little woolly tubes which are open at both ends. The tubes are made of silk and they eventually pupate in it. If you remove a young caterpillar from it’s tube it will immediately rebuild it but if you remove a fully grown one from it’s tube before it pupates it will actually die! Pellionella have such a dependency on their woolley tube and they are so well adapted to their environment that I cannot understand why you think one might enter you or how they could do it.
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Do you mind if I ask a personal question:
Do you accept that this is an irrational fear but cannot help worrying about it anyway? A sort of obsessive-compulsive thing?
Or are you genuinely concerned that this could happen?
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Hi John,
I think it's probably irrational but still worry of the likely hood that it somehow may have happened.
I can accept that these tinea larvae would find it difficult to push through the sphincter, and this eases the anxiety of them doing any serious damage.
But thinking too much - The idea has to come into my head that what if gases we release opened the sphincter muscle. Would this than provide an opportunity for the larva to crawl through or does the sphincter muscle not open sufficiently enough for a larva to crawl through when passing wind? Or would this reaction be too quick for the creature to have time to get through into the colon?
Thanks again John for your detailed replies.
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Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about farting.
When you fart it tends to seep out of a narrow 'crack' of an opening. You can fart while you are wanting a poo and nothing but gas will come out! The mechanism for farting is that you contract your stomach muscles and so compress everything in your lower body cavity including your descending colon and any gases it contains. It's a bit like squeezing a balloon. If you then relax your sphincter just enough to let the compressed gas escape you fart. You cannot actually 'open' your anal sphincter, as such. The muscles aren't arranged that way and it is a largely involuntary set of muscles designed to contract all the time, even when you are relaxed. If they didn't you would become incontinent in your sleep.
Think again about the balloon analogy. Blow up the balloon and pinch the neck closed with two fingers. Then relax your grip just enough to let the air 'parp' out of a crack of an opening. Can you imagining a caterpillar crawling against the airflow at that moment and into the balloon? It's just not going to happen. The gap is too small. The air current is too great and the time scale is far too short. The thing would have to move like greased lightening and be able to flatten itself enough to get through the gap and grip hard enough not to get shot back out again like the cork from a pop gun! But still the main question has to be 'why would it want to?'. It happily lives a shy & passive life protected by it's cocoon.
The other thing that should be remembered, of course, is that the caterpillar would asphyxiate in a methane environment. It would be more deadly than dropping one in water because the methane would diffuse into the caterpillars spiracles replacing the air. It would therefore suffocate much more quickly in methane than it would in the glass of water.
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Thanks again John for your excellent answers.
I suppose my concern is I could have inadvertently laid on one of the 'cases' while in bed. Being of the hairy kind, I'm worried one may have then attached itself to the hair. As you say keratin is it's main food source so hair would be ideal to eat.
So the irrational fear is it MAY have crawled towards the anal passage. I am quite worried that I am thinking about seeing the GP, but really too embarrassed to do so. Afterall, what would a GP say to me, do you think?
John - Are you quite sure they couldn't push through the anal sphincter muscle?
Would the area directly above the anal sphincter muscle contain a methane environment?
Again John, thanks for your excellent answers.
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"Would the area directly above the anal sphincter muscle contain a methane environment?"
It certainly would while you were farting. Strictly not just methane but nitrogen, methane, hydrogen sulphide, carbon dioxide, and a few other odds and ends but very little oxygen.
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"It certainly would while you were farting. Strictly not just methane but nitrogen, methane, hydrogen sulphide, carbon dioxide, and a few other odds and ends but very little oxygen."
Not enough oxygen to sustain the life of a tinea larva?
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Hi Modern
I'll be honest that, to me, the idea that a textile eating moth caterpillar should
a) attempt to enter your body
b) succeed in doing so
c) survive long enough to harm you, and
d) be able to harm you
is just ridiculous. Please do not think that, because the members of this forum are discussing it with you, that this gives the idea validity. I believe the members of this forum are simply humouring your fear because it is obviously sincere. But it is absolutely absurd. It's a bit like believing that my cat might somehow find his way into outer space and end up putting the first paw prints on the moon.
I'm sorry to be so blunt and I hope you don't take offense but this reminds me of some of the things my father, and later sister-in-law, believed when they each had nervous breakdowns. Now I'm not suggesting for one moment that you are suffering from mental illness but the point I am making is this: I learned that, although you can try until you are blue in the face, it is not possible to 'logic your way out' of irrational fears. That is the nature of them being irrational, I suppose. I have a feeling that there isn't anything I can say that will allay your fears.
If this is something that is worrying you to the extent that it is impacting negatively on your life then you may need professional help with this. Is it, for instance, stopping you from going to bed or sleeping or causing you to abuse laxatives or perform any other dangerous consequential actions?. Marriages can be broken up and jobs lost over these sorts of things. If this describes your situation then maybe counselling or hypnosis or some such thing might help.
I am quite worried that I am thinking about seeing the GP, but really too embarrassed to do so. Afterall, what would a GP say to me, do you think?
I think your GP may take this very seriously, not because he will be concerned that you have caterpillars living within you but because of the impact this may be having on your life. If it is affecting your quality of life then you should tell him. After all, what harm could it do?
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"It certainly would while you were farting. Strictly not just methane but nitrogen, methane, hydrogen sulphide, carbon dioxide, and a few other odds and ends but very little oxygen."
Not enough oxygen to sustain the life of a tinea larva?
No, and probably enough H2S to poison it anyway.
I'm beginning to get the feeling that if I were able to say (with evidence and authority)
" don't worry; that sort of moth larva has an alergy to human hair and wouldn't go near you if it could help it" you would just find something else to wory about.
I think you need to talk to a doctor about this; not about the larvae but about your fear of them.
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At the risk of stating the obvious, street drugs & prescribed drugs can cause temporary delusions, (including their sudden withdrawal) ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder
At the risk of stating the obvious, again, an obsession about infection via anal penetration does sound like it could have a sexual origin.
You may prefer to see a psychiatrist privately if your GP does not take this seriously, or if you would prefer to avoid the possibility of stigmatization occurring as a result of having a mental health problem on your public health (NHS ?) medical record.
Q. How can I see a psychiatrist privately?
Your GP may hold a list of psychiatrists who practice privately. Alternatively, you can contact private healthcare providers or psychiatric clinics directly to make an appointment. Some psychiatrists may advertise themselves in your local yellow pages. If they have the title 'MRCPsych' (Member of the Royal College of Psychiatrists) or FRCPsych (Fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists), this means that they are current members of the College.
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfo/treatments/howtogethelp.aspx#seepsychpriv
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'Bottom' line - would anyone here be worried about finding any of these in their bed?
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No.
Well, I wouldn't exactly cherish the idea of any wildlife in my bed, unless we're talking about a female gymnast, wild with passion and armed with a jar of lemon curd. But if I found clothes moths living on my bedding my concern wouldn't extend further than changing the bedclothes. Possibly the following day if it was late.
Is your fear stopping you from going to bed?
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Ha-ha - no John, they are long gone.
I thank you personally for putting my mind at ease. I may mention it, next time I see the GP just because hey it's a doctor telling me not to worry - which is always nice. Not that I doubt your explanations. What field are you in? You are an intelligent man and a gentleman!
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Thank you. That's very generous.
Unfortunately, my paper qualifications are not very impressive. I studied biology, human biology and zoology but only to A Level. I failed to get into medical school and did a year of anatomy in the hope that it might persuade them to let me in. My interest in natural history and entomology was once keen but strictly amateur. That was all many years ago and I now run a small packing business with my wife, do contract delivery work on the side and also make biodiesel.
This site gives you access to some highly educated people and some of the other contributors to this thread are the real thing. Fortunately everyone was in agreement that while your problem was unpleasant it was not harmful and I am really pleased you feel reassured.
Please let us know if there are any more developments. In the meantime it would be lovely to see you on other threads.
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Modern! Scrolled through all this and enough okay honey. This IS an irrational worry, possibly because you are worried about something else that you don't want to talk about. Just a thought.
We have not always slept on beds. Most of us have been camping. We've all been babies with our botties roaming free. NEVER has ANYONE had a moth larvae do what you suggest, for all the reasons given.
Certain parasites like tapeworms specifically evolved to live in the hostile environment of the inside body. Moths like to fly. They need an environment which is suitable for them.
If heart problems are worrying you. I'm worried for you. With all this anxiety over what is as you I think know yourself nonsense you will increase your chance of develping cardiac problems. Worry about that? Or do a bit of soul searching and find what is really bothering you. I can guarantee it is not the eggs on your bed. Had you not found them, I think you would be obsessing over something else.
Rarely get so harsh, but with so many answers and you just looking for more...have come across this before. I think personally it is time to stop reassuring you. If you want to believe this even will happen then that is your choice. Just get annoyed when all of us with our own problems are trying to help and it is falling on deaf ears.
Yes I am in a foul mood. But just felt this needed to be said. Not a dig at you. I think you do have problems, just not with moth larvae. How about posting again with the real problem behind this sometime? You have seen for yourself there is plenty of support here.
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Thanks for your concern, but as you can read from my previous post, John has done well to convince and reassure that this is impossible.
Sorry that there isn't an ulterior motive for me to give to you...
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Did anyone see Derren Brown's tv show on Saturday? He claimed that a mice could survive in the intestine for up to 2 days. He's having a laugh right?! Not that I have any mice running in my bed!
By the way is the rectum a oxygen free environment?
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the rectum isn't, it's too close to the outside world.
The intestine is anaerobic, and IF some oxygen gas would be released from digestion, it would be used immediately by lactobacilli to aid their own metabolism.
Your intestine is inhabited by millions and millions of bacteria, of which there are anaerobic species (cannot live where there's oxygen) and facultative anaerobic species (can live in both oxygen and oxygen-free environments, but prefer oxygen). Since oxygen is a more efficient way of metabolising, these facultative anaerobes will use up oxygen first, before returning to anaerobe metabolism (and in this way, they also protect the 100% anaerobe bacteria)
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"He's having a laugh right?!"
Yes, he was joking.
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Yes, he was joking.
His explanation for his lottery "prediction" was also a joke ... http://uk.tv.yahoo.com/12092009/19/illusionist-brown-lottery-trick.html
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the rectum isn't, it's too close to the outside world.
The intestine is anaerobic, and IF some oxygen gas would be released from digestion, it would be used immediately by lactobacilli to aid their own metabolism.
Your intestine is inhabited by millions and millions of bacteria, of which there are anaerobic species (cannot live where there's oxygen) and facultative anaerobic species (can live in both oxygen and oxygen-free environments, but prefer oxygen). Since oxygen is a more efficient way of metabolising, these facultative anaerobes will use up oxygen first, before returning to anaerobe metabolism (and in this way, they also protect the 100% anaerobe bacteria)
Wouldn't the closed sphincter block any air from getting to the rectum though?
Also do you think that sweat could lubricate the sphincter muscle enough to allow a Caterpillar larva to push through?
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The sphincter is hardly airtight (unless you train it alot [;)]).
Sweat isn't lube, and since sweat is salty, I don't think a soft bodied larva likes it that much..
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Wonders how we got to talking about anal lubrication on a science forum... [:o]
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It was a difficult road to walk, but we finally made it! [:P]
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It would be difficult to walk if you hadn't used....... er... I'll leave that one! [;)]
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used what? shoes? [:P]
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Would you say that pain would be felt if a moth larva were to eat into the rectum?
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I'd definitely say yes.
Best way to deal with this situation is to take a huge dump.
Tidal wave sh*t stream is a known method for getting rid of rectum biting moth larvae
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A Haemorrhoid can cause itching, tingling in the rectum, sometimes pain, discomfort.
If it is just an inner Haemorrhoid, it can be mistaken with the feeling of a moth larva climbing in you rectum...
I'm personally more afraid of Thor's lightninghammer (Mjöllnir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B6llnir)) striking me to death on a bright day then a clothing moth larva. Btw it has roughly the same chance that either of them are found in the rectum without deliberate human action.
(I just had a Déjà vu)
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offtopic:
a female gymnast, wild with passion and armed with a jar of lemon curd
did no one else notice this? very lol [:P]
thumbs up for the weird food choice.
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OK seriously, do you think one would try to eat at the rectum if it was to squeeze through a sweaty sphincter? Or because it eats keratin mainly, do you think it would simply carry on crawling towards the colon?
Constructive answers appreciated only - Thank you.
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Q. Could moth larvae invade my body?
A. only if you've been dead for a couple of weeks ...
Black putrefaction is the stage that follows. In this stage, the body cavity ruptures. The gases trapped inside the body escape and the green color on the abdomen darkens. All of this occurs ten to twenty days after death. The insects found living inside the body include: calliphoridae (blow-fly) larvae, staphylinidae (rove beetles), histeridae (clown beetles), gamasid mites, ptomaphila (Australian carrion beetles), trichopterygidae (feather-winged beetle), piophilid (cheese fly) larvae, parasitic wasps, staphylinidae (rove beetle) larvae, trichopterygidae (feather-winged beetle) larvae, ptomaphila (Australian carrion beetle) larvae, dermestes (skin beetles), tyroglyphid mites, tineid (clothes moth) larvae, and dermestes (skin beetle) larvae.
http://scienceray.com/biology/death-and-bugs/
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Thank you RD - but you have missed the point - please read OP.
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Thank you RD - but you have missed the point - please read OP.
If you cannot find any precedent of moth larvae invading a living human body then I refer you to my previous "point" in this thread ...
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=24629.msg267244#msg267244
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Looking over this thread again it seems there are two contradictory claims: Nizzle claiming the rectum is oxygen containing while Bored Chemist claiming otherwise.
Is there anyone on here with some authority to clear this up?