On the Lighter Side > Complementary Medicine
vitamin suppliments
another_someone:
--- Quote from: iko on 29/03/2007 21:56:42 ---George seems too much worried to umbalance a natural condition, but I insist in saying that at the recommended doses it might be only a waste of money at worst.
BTW George, I am still waiting for your comments on the 'Shanghai report' and the engineers versus docs issue...where everything started from, last August.
When you get bored of vitamin intoxication issues, of course.
ikod
--- End quote ---
That was a long while back – had to search for it – did not even remember whether I had read it at the time or not (may have done, but just forgotten about it).
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=4987.0
It covers a number of issues, but if you want to start with the comparison between the engineering issue and the medical one. I was going to list all of the differences between the medical profession and the engineering profession that might explain those apparent differences, but then realised that actually, in this context, there is not that much difference between the way the medical profession and the engineering profession react. The difference rather arises from the nature of the two incidents you report.
The flight safety issue is a negative issue (the engineers are warning what not to do, they are not saying what should be done). If you look at the usage of drugs today, it is much more difficult to introduce a new drug to the market than it is to have a drug withdrawn from the market as soon as there are any negative side effects found amongst the users of the drug (this is even true for those drugs that have many users who are totally happy with the drug – but fear of litigation from the minority will rapidly cause the drug to be removed from the market).
The aircraft industry is somewhat smaller than the medical industry, so things can happen more rapidly in the aircraft industry than in the medical industry, but it is still the case that getting a new component for an aircraft accepted takes much longer than getting one banned from use.
With regard to the Shanghai report itself (I have only seen the abstract, not the actual report), it provides a wide list of correlations, but as I have often pointed out, correlation does not equate to a causal link (I am not trying to argue against a link between vitamin D and leukaemia, it is merely that the report does not appear to be looking for specific causative agents, only to interesting correlations that would provide directions for future research). It seems that the report found quite a spectrum of correlations, but the mere breadth of that spectrum would mean that any one single correlation would only be one amongst many.
Clearly, given your own particular interest, the report speaks to you in a particular way; but such a wide (and apparently shallow) report could easily give very different messages to somebody looking for another message to read from it.
Why did the authors not shout louder about the cod liver oil aspect of their report? It seems to me they were more concerned with looking for environmental risk factors rather than protective factors, and in that context, a protective factor was merely a distraction (although it does seem strange why they even recording something that they were not interested in, unless they were simply trying to discount for it so that they effect did not distort their other results).
One serious problem with cod liver oil is the total collapse of the cod sticks and the cod fishing industry – it is in no position to try to satisfy new and expanding markets for its products. This, if nothing else, demands that in the long run only a synthetic substitute for cod liver oil could be sustainably sold to an expanding marketplace.
iko:
Thank you so much for your reply!
I think I'm going to copy into the topic,
for the next weeks 'viewers'
--- Quote ---One serious problem with cod liver oil is the total collapse of the cod sticks and the cod fishing industry – it is in no position to try to satisfy new and expanding markets for its products. This, if nothing else, demands that in the long run only a synthetic substitute for cod liver oil could be sustainably sold to an expanding marketplace.
George
--- End quote ---
There should be no major problem in the next few years.
Supplying leukemic patients won't do a great change in that market...I wouldn't talk of an expanding market.
Cod liver oil is too cheap and we need small doses: many people are busy trying to prove it is potentially toxic and packed with any pollutant you can imagine.
My doubts about synthetic compounds come from the fact that the so called 'evidence' is for the natural mixture and only an epidemiological one.
Different substances and their complex interactions may be involved.
I hope that some parent finds it through the web. We'll see.
Thanks to this forum.
ikod
Wow! I just noticed that in this very day we made 160: most on line than ever...
a good sign? ...and Neil was not even around!
iko:
--- Quote from: iko on 08/07/2007 22:31:25 ---Whether our elderly relatives need vitamin B12 or not,
to keep their brain in good shape is still a matter of
debate. Negative reports prevailed in the past, now
times are changing a bit.
This is a positive report from Israel.
I find it sharp and encouraging indeed...
If only a few patients respond to a treatment, we have
to identify their 'size and shape', instead of throwing
the whole research in the garbage bin.
Neuropsychology of vitamin B12 deficiency in elderly dementia patients and control subjects.Osimani A, Berger A, Friedman J, Porat-Katz BS, Abarbanel JM.Kaplan Hospital, Rehovot, Israel and the Department of Behavioral Sciences, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Beer Sheva, Israel.
Cobalamin deficiency may cause cognitive deficits and even dementia. In Alzheimer's disease, the most frequent cause of dementia in elderly persons, low serum levels of vitamin B12, may be misleading. The aim of this work was to characterize the cognitive pattern of B12 deficiency and to compare it with that of Alzheimer's disease. Nineteen patients with low levels of vitamin B12 were neuropsychologically evaluated before treatment and a year later. Results were compared with those of 10 healthy control subjects. Final results suggest that there is a different pattern in both diseases. Twelve elderly patients with dementia improved with treatment. Seven elderly demented patients did not improve; they deteriorated after 1 year although their levels of cobalamin were normal. Analysis of the initial evaluation showed that the 2 groups of patients had a different neuropsychological profile. The group that improved had initially more psychotic problems and more deficits in concentration, visuospatial performance, and executive functions. They did not show language problems and ideomotor apraxia, which were present in the second group. Their memory pattern was also different. These findings suggest that cobalamin deficiency may cause a reversible dementia in elderly patients. This dementia may be differentiated from that of Alzheimer's disease by a thorough neuropsychological evaluation.
J Geriatr Psychiatry Neurol. 2005 Mar;18(1):33-8.
http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/McGrawHill/Encyclopedia/images/CE734300FG0010.gif
--- End quote ---
Alandriel:
May I be so bold and hark back somewhat to the original question about wether we need supplements or not?
For I think there is also another important issue here to consider which has not been addressed.
--- Quote from: Iko mentioned ---If the combination of foodstuff we eat from time to time is correct, thanks to our family traditions and culture, for example, we probably won't have any deficiency problem from the cradle to the end of our life.
--- End quote ---
That would indeed be great but we also have to take into account that much produce (veg & fruit)seem to have 'lost' quite a bit of their mineral/vitamin content vs e.g. 70 years ago.
--- Quote from: DEFRA article --- We conclude that the average concentrations of Cu, Mg and Na in vegetables and the average concentrations of Cu, Fe and K in fruit available in the UK have decreased significantly between the 1930s and the 1980s.
--- End quote ---
article link]
... and that's just one example. There are many more.
(and if you know of any more links I'd appreciate your input)
Promoters of supplements (and I might stress that I'm NOT one of them) say we need to replace what we cannot get naturally.
And then there is the 'fortify' craze [::)] which sometimes makes it impossible to choose anything...
I say we need to rethink our production methods and our consumption.... and get better legislation in place for 'organic'
and yes, the ready availability of some easy tests would be fabulous too.
It's hard to believe that there is not enough support for this...
iko:
--- Quote from: Alandriel on 31/10/2007 18:16:27 ---May I be so bold and hark back somewhat to the original question about wether we need supplements or not?
For I think there is also another important issue here to consider which has not been addressed.
--- Quote from: Iko mentioned ---If the combination of foodstuff we eat from time to time is correct, thanks to our family traditions and culture, for example, we probably won't have any deficiency problem from the cradle to the end of our life.
--- End quote ---
That would indeed be great but we also have to take into account that much produce (veg & fruit)seem to have 'lost' quite a bit of their mineral/vitamin content vs e.g. 70 years ago.
--- End quote ---
Hi Alandriel,
of course yours is a good question and no proper answer is available right now.
If we refer to recommended doses for 'perfect health' instead of deficiency-preventing needed daily amount we get lost and no simple and practical suggestion is available.
Sometimes the easier way is chosen if a scientist has got enough authority to push his theory and show the right 'evidences': Linus Pauling tried to convince his collegues that we need at least 2grams of ascorbic acid per day because that is the average amount that monkeys get from their natural diets, and they 'lost' the enzyme to make vitamin C by themselves million years ago (like we humans).
I see tiny black spots and a lot of unknown things in this issue.
The major problem is that as humans, we are all unique and different (fortunately!), and our biological diversity and enzyme defects could make different diets sort out huge differences in the resulting 'state of health'.
We all know about gluten intolerance (celiac disease) and other food intolerances and allergies, but those diet-related ailments had been properly studied and evaluated only in the last few decades. So we may see a longer list in the future.
As far as cofactors and vitamins are concerned, I'll mention just one recent example for many to come, to underline how an invisible genetic defect and consequent enzyme abnormality with metabolic impairment can be adjusted by a proper diet:
http://www.rondellen.net/metab_eng.gif
Look at the MTHFR enzyme in this picture. Imagine that this molecule, a complex protein with catalytic properties, in a certain human had a defect, due to an inherited genetic mutation, resulting in a wrong aminoacid close to its active site. This genetically abnormal protein will not be able to work at regular speed and produce enough 5-methyl-tetrahydrofolate to form methionine from homocysteine. Homocysteine will accumulate inside and outside the cells with toxic effects. Tiny vessels may be damaged by toxic levels of homocysteine and a stroke may result from those lesions.
But cofactors can help in some enzyme defects: in this particular case, increasing folic acid, vitamin B12 and B6 in the diet (look at the homocysteine crossroad in the diagram), higher cofactors availability is able to speed up enzyme activity and normalize this particular metabolic pathway. So homocysteine is efficiently transformed and cannot accumulate anymore in the body, tiny vessels are happy again and the probability of a sudden vascular catastrophe will fall down.
Theoretically, patients can regularly check their homocysteine and test special diets rich in those cofactors, without taking any supplement.
Many more examples of metabolic defects like this will probably be defined in the near future, so the final answer to your question will be: "Each of us needs his own cofactors".
And the lot of us need cod liver oil! [;D]
Take care
ikod
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