Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Plant Sciences, Zoology & Evolution => Topic started by: Tann San on 23/08/2004 20:25:11
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Hi, ok so a bit of background first! I've got two cats, they both got a tragic case of fleas a few weeks ago and nothing seems to get rid of them. The other day I came up with bathing them long enough to drown all the fleas but they both got a bit narked when I tried putting them near a 1cm puddle let alone the deep bit. So that idea got flushed and I put it down to their fear of water. Later on I got on to wondering why they dislike it so much, they drink enough of the stuff!
The last time I thought about it I thought it may be to do with their fur. Like it would get far too heavy for them to swim so as a natural defense they avoid all "big" expanses of liquid. I also thought that they are usually quite scrawny under all that fur or ultra wide and that would also affect their swimming capacity. I heard a while ago that not all cats dislike water so this got me to wondering again. Cats normally react badly to things that remind them of bad experiences in their past. I thought it was a bit far fectched to think that all cats could have a bad water experience so early on then I thought what about inside the mothers womb? Do you think its possible that they gain awareness of the enviroment before they emerge, you know like wake up in a big ball of liquid? I figured that a kitten could perceive the whole birth process as quite traumatic and that the whole being surrounded in liquid becomes a future bad association.
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Well ive gotten to know many cats in my life... a grande total of 3 cats.
I believe that they dislike water because they have a form of intelligence that makes them alert to a comfort zone.
Ive loved many cats and gotten to know their personality, and i can assure you that it has nothing to do with water, it has to do with trust and comfort.
Cats arent just "independant" They are very dependant on their rituals. If you can get that cat to include you in that ritual, they can be very dependant on you.
Cats think in a deep level that makes them far more intelligent than dogs on some aspects, just not as "outgoing" But who ever says being outgoing makes you smarter?
So just because your cat doesnt wanna get dunked in water, doesnt mean your cat has a problem, it just means it doesnt wanna get dunked...who does anyway when its agaisnt their will.
Greg Badalian
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are you sure? I've had three kittens as well and they all dislike water in most forms except in the drinking dish. Snow (one of the two I have now) shows some interest when I'm having a shower, he even comes and sits next to me but he gets all fussy when I slowly move the shower thing over to him :¬)
My kitties stick near me almost all the time I'm at home, they dont seem to think I will hurt them most of the time, like I can fake punching one in the face and it doesnt even blink..ok so that sounds kinda twisted but it was just me experimenting the other day...oh oh so now I'm all like "I experiment on my cats"...it isnt that bad honestly...
If I wet my hands and rub it on them they will stand there till their wet through, this makes me think their not afraid of being covered in water, more just the notion of large bodies of it...its not even that deep just a cm or two. I call them kitties but their really big tom cats so they tower above the water surface. I'm right there with them and they still wig out.
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You know, i think you are missing my point.
Dont worry about the fake punch..ya know im glad you said that!!!
I love running at my cats full speed!!! and when they dont flinch, it makes me feel so good inside. See, thats my point, cats flinch at a particle of dust flying in the air, so to see that they trust you in awsome!!!!!
But, you didnt understand my point because you dont know what a comfort zone is.
Let me elaborate.
A comfort zone is a set of feelings attributed to your surroundings that make a cat feel calm. And when something happens to upset the cat, who knows how much emotional pain it can go through? So why water? Well to cat, even cm of water is something foreign...Cats can sense things on levels we humans cant, so to a cat taking it SLOW!!! is the biggest step towards anything because little by little the cats comfort zone can change, but only little by little, because EVERYTHING new to a cat is subject to being new, so its not just water, cats comfort zones are to be recognized and respected. So i know you want to find some secret to water, but i assure you, water is just water to cats, but they know they will feel UNcomfortable if they step in it.
Greg Badalian
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hehe ok so I'll get on the comfort zone bandwagon! I've come up with a new idea to get rid of the fleas. Im going to give the kitties some sleeping gas so I can give them a bath without the never ending struggle..ooo might use sleeping pills instead (well maybe half of a pill each). Then while their still conked out I'll go around and clean the house as best I can. gotta broom sweep the floors and then hoover and then spray layers and layers of flea spray everywhere.
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I guess if you have that much fur water might be uncomftorable....My cat is always around me, it gets So annoying though, constant meow. He headbuts me to!
To see a world in a grain of sand.
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One of my dogs caught a feral kitten the other day. It took us a couple of weeks to find the body, she'd done such a good job of burying it. I think it's in it's comfort zone now. We left it planted and put a rock on it so one of the dogs wouldn't retrieve it later.
Chris or Rich, do you remember that white kitten we couldn't catch. Well, it's not a problem anymore.
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Tann, I hate to tell you this, but a bath will NOT get rid of the fleas. It might help a little, but I doubt you'll notice. There are a couple of things you might try. There is a product called "Front Line" that is available at vet's offices that really kills fleas and keeps them off for a month at a time. It is not the same as the stuff you can buy at Wal-Mart (from Hartz) which can make cats very sick and isn't all that effective. There is another product called "Capstar", also available at the vet's that kills all parasites within four hours. It doesn't have any lasting effect like Front Line, though it works immediately while FL will take several days to clear them.
To get rid of the fleas in the house, you may have to spray. But that stuff is pretty toxic to people and cats, so be careful. There are some "natural" rememdies that aren't so toxic, but I haven't tried them and so can't speak for their effectiveness.
I have a whole different theory of cats and water. Here goes.
Cats are very particular about keeping their fur clean. When they get wet they have to lick themselves all over and very very thoroughly. So, they don't want to get wet because they don't want to mess up their hair-do.
I once had a cat that got mauled in a mudhole (presumably a dog, but I didn't see it happpen). He was covered in mud and dirt, and was obviously hurting all over, though nothing serious like broken bones. So, I ran a luke warm bath, just below a cat's body temp (abt 38 C). I eased him into the water, and after he got wet and realized how good it felt, he relaxed and I had to hold his head up so he wouldn't drown. I got him cleaned up and dried him the best I could and he recovered completely.
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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Yeah, but John, when I bathed my cats I always put the blow dryer on them and dried them, but they still hated the bath. And the noise of the dryer just added to the trauma, even though they didn't have to lick their hair into place. But I see some of the nature shows where some of the big game cats will go into the water after prey without hesitation. Wonder why some cats don't like water and others don't mind it?
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well now the kitties see being lifted above the bath as a threat! they werent that bad till the last time I tried bathing them. Yesterday there was this big spider in the bath and I thought one of my kitties would like to play with it so I lifted them one at a time into the bath. They both were fine till they were over the bath, then each of them took a glance down, realised where they were and started to freak out. One cat did the whole shaking the water off thing when he got out even though the bath was bone dry.
phoosh! Front Line! I knew I wasnt using the right thing. There were two products at my local vets originally, I think I used to use front line but then they stopped selling it so I switched to something like "Dr Bobs...". Righty well I'm hunting down some FL on saturday. Tis a pity bathing them wont work as the flea thing is a major problem now. I'm covered in bites and now I'm all paranoid every time I have an itch that its an evil flea running around. I think my plan is to seal the house with the kitties in. Give them the flea meds and then totaly clean the house. I'm going to bomb it as well using as much Flea Spray as I can (after cleaning).
Cats with long hair are funny, one of mine is short hair the other is long. He can be really fussy about cleaning himself but then sometimes he will have some kinda big things on him that he doesnt mind. Sometimes he has big bugs or parts of plants in his fur, he cleans all around them but doesnt actually remove them. If you try and take it off he tries clawing you..well that kinda clawing you in the middle of "lets play" and "I'm gonna eat you afterwards"!. I thought it was funny and that he was actually keeping those things as if he had pockets. He is a horder, like he brings things in and stores them in his hiding place which is also where the items he carries in his fur end up.
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Watch out with the flea spray. There was an old lady in town where I used to live that decided to "get rid" of the fleas in her trailer. Apparently her math/reading/reasoning skills weren't so very good and she decided to use eight cans of the flea bomb. She returned home to find her house trailer converted to a flat-bed trailer. I didn't hear if it got rid of the fleas, but I doubt that it did. [:D]
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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maybe they are hydrobhobic
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OHH funny story...kinda. Our neighbor is kinda, whats the word, out there. And her has a german sheapard he loves to death. Once it got fleas he immiedatly went out and purchases Front line. Now apparently you squeeze it on and let it sink into the skin, but what my friend did was rub it into the dogs skin with his hands. Now hes been doing this for years, always useing his hands. SO one time we all went out fishing (Big mistake) the mosquitos were HORRIBLE theyd bite you and your arm would go numb! So when all of us were swatting them away and running for shelter we noticed our good friend not even being bothered by them. Upon questiong him as to what insect repellant he had, he replyed "none". So because of rubbing in the flea killer for all those years his body must have absorbed some of it and now he is a mosquito repellant. However odd it must be that it can double for that purpose.
I found that amuseing...True genius is knowing that you truely know nothing.
To see a world in a grain of sand.
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quote:
Originally posted by bezoar
Yeah, but John, when I bathed my cats I always put the blow dryer on them and dried them, but they still hated the bath. And the noise of the dryer just added to the trauma, even though they didn't have to lick their hair into place. But I see some of the nature shows where some of the big game cats will go into the water after prey without hesitation. Wonder why some cats don't like water and others don't mind it?
I've found that cats MUST put their hair (each and every single one) back in the right place by THEMSELVES. No amount of drying, combing, rubbing etc. can do it properly, even if the attention feels good.
And, I understand that many big cats actually enjoy the water. Tigers in India play in the water - swimming.
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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When I was a kid we had to close the bathroom door when bathing, or our cat, George, would jump in with you. We lost George thanks to some trapper's leg-hold trap. They must have released him and let him find his way home, dragging one mangled leg.
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quote:
Originally posted by Tann San
hehe ok so I'll get on the comfort zone bandwagon! I've come up with a new idea to get rid of the fleas. Im going to give the kitties some sleeping gas so I can give them a bath without the never ending struggle..ooo might use sleeping pills instead (well maybe half of a pill each). Then while their still conked out I'll go around and clean the house as best I can. gotta broom sweep the floors and then hoover and then spray layers and layers of flea spray everywhere.
You could always send the fleas an eviction order, followed up by an anti-flea leaflet campaign !!
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Ho boy, you're on to something here Neil! Get a restraining order against the fleas!!!! That'll keep them away just like it keeps stalkers and abusers away. *dripping sarcasm*
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well a week or two later and the fleas are still in control. Turns out the drop on the neck stuff is a repelant and not a killer so I got these pills that kill fleas. Gave each kitty twice the dosage which was kind of funny as they seem normal for about 10-20 minutes and then they go all ferrel when the fleas start moving crazily. Thought that would do it but I was wrong. Then got some ultra strong spray stuff. Totally bombed the house with it, done that several times now including last night. ug..fleas are gross, nibbling at me. I thought about taking the kitty repelant stuff myself but I can always smell it really strongly off my kittens, not from their neck but just all over, I think they sweat it out or it is slow released that way. I didnt really want to take something that acts like that as I have no idea what else it might do...I'll stop moaning about the fleas now as it looks like only a tactical nuke will clear things up now.
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I've had this problem before, and they are hard to get rid of. But you can do it!
Be warned that fleas have about a four week incubation period, so just because you have them under control for a couple of weeks doesn't mean you won't get another hatching later. They seem to come in waves.
I understand that most of the flea "bombs" are an estrogen based compound and are absorbed through the skin and the lungs. So, you can get hormonally messed up just by being in the house. Also, I believe that the chemical accumulates in your system rather than being flushed out. I'm sure this depends on the product you purchased, but it sure gives reason to be careful. But the fleas are probably worse.
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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quote:
Originally posted by Tann San
well a week or two later and the fleas are still in control. Turns out the drop on the neck stuff is a repelant and not a killer so I got these pills that kill fleas. Gave each kitty twice the dosage which was kind of funny as they seem normal for about 10-20 minutes and then they go all ferrel when the fleas start moving crazily. Thought that would do it but I was wrong. Then got some ultra strong spray stuff. Totally bombed the house with it, done that several times now including last night. ug..fleas are gross, nibbling at me. I thought about taking the kitty repelant stuff myself but I can always smell it really strongly off my kittens, not from their neck but just all over, I think they sweat it out or it is slow released that way. I didnt really want to take something that acts like that as I have no idea what else it might do...I'll stop moaning about the fleas now as it looks like only a tactical nuke will clear things up now.
...stick your cat in the microwave for a couple of minutes and nuke 'em...(err...that's a joke....but you knew that of course !!)....failing that sounds like you need either The 'A' Team or The Fleamernator...........OK....I'm going now !
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....just a thought, once you do get rid of the fleas keep on treating your furnishings and carpets, cat bed and cat cos as John says, the little buggers like to come back cos the eggys can last quite a while and the critters lay at least one an hour !!!.....I'm Scratching Now !!!!!
Flea links which might help http://www.pestproducts.com/flea-egg.htm
http://cats.about.com/cs/parasiticdisease/a/fleas.htm
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Yay, success! 5 mins in the microwave got rid of the fleas for good :¬) kidding kidding, would never do that...mostly... hehe. I'm going to get more spray and meds for them this weekend, its hard to get stuff since I work 9.30-6 and that doesnt count travelling so places are always closed. I'll definately be more carefull with the spray now, sounds worse than I thought. Last night I bombed my bedroom and my bed (it says no to bedding) and shut the door. I was going to leave it for an hour till I remembered I had loads of work to do so I ended up sitting in a really misty room about 10 minutes after unleashing the gas. Guess I wont be doing that again...wait didnt I say I'd stop going on about my cats? ok so now I'll shut up :¬)
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The Vet told me to put Advantex <liquid flea killer> on the dog, rub it in using rubber gloves as it is absorbed into your skin just like the dogs. It kills fleas within 12 hours.It keeps killing for 30 days. It is safe enough to use everyday though. He then told me to NOT use any sprays or powders as they do not work. Let the dog into all his usual areas and as the dead skin falls off his body any fleas in the room or carpet will eat the treated skin. Those fleas will then die and the whole problem will be over. I think it works better in theory than in actuality. The active ingredient is it Imidacloprid.
By the way...I had a cat that loved to swim and take showers. weird.
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Something doesn't add up here. If the flea powder is safe for dogs, whose bodies are generally much smaller than ours, then why are people supposed to wear rubber gloves to protect us from absorbing it the way dogs do?
That sounds like the amalgam issue. Amalgam in the dentist's office is handled by stringent guidelines for handling toxic material. Scrap amalgam is handled as toxic waste. So we are supposed to believe that the only place amalgam is "safely" stored is in our mouths??? Absurd.
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http://www.holisticmed.com/dental/amalgam/
http://www.algonet.se/~leif/AmFAQigr.html
Donnah...how are ya....check those 2 sites out..it isn't safe in our mouths either.
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I had a buddy that had a horrible flea infestation. The ones that he couldn't train for circus life [:o)] had to be killed, and killed fast. He was a vegan/ozone/peta type, so he didn't like the idea of chemicals. So, he set out to find a home remedy type evacuation of un-trainable fleas.
First, set the television set on the floor. Second, set a shallow caserole dish in front of it. Third, fill the dish with soapy water. Finaly, put the telly on the blank snow channel overnight.
After a few days, the pan would start filling up with drowned fleas. They jump to the screen and bounce into the pan and drown. I thought that was pretty cool.
On the subject of cats, I heard the other day that Tylenol / acitomenaphin (sp) in any amount will KILL [xx(] a cat of any size. Is this true?
Just a [}:)] thought
Ronnie
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I have had the priviledge of owning cats all my life, and the study of cat behaviour is a particular interest of mine.
I believe that their 'fear' of water is a part of a cat's general dislike/fear of anything that is foreign to it. My cats will allow themselves to be shampooed, but only if they are introduced to the warm water shower very gradually, and restrained until they are used to the feel of it. They then relax and appear to quite enjoy the experience. I use either a specialist cat shampoo or a very mild baby shampoo, diluting it first with warm water before applying it.
Another fear when the hairdryer starts, but again they relax after a time and allow the drier to dry their fur. As they are long haired cats, they look wonderfully fluffy after their shampoo, and I believe they really appreciate their fur being so clean, albeit the smell of the fur will be foreign to them for a while.
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By the way, special anti-flea cat shampoos seem to be quite effective, but in my experience, the preparations that are applied as drops to the back of the cat's neck and spread themselves over its body are the most effective anti-flea treatments of all.
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o.k. I just want to do the t.v. / soap dish thing for the fun of it. <laughing> sounds funny!
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Me luff cats.... (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.hccnet.nl%2Fenny.runkat%2Fsnowcat.gif&hash=7de9eb53486cd4f73097e6f4a7bc4704)....every cat I've had did not like bathy time...however, one cat was happy to drink from the sink......but...cats are actually pretty good swimmers....(sorry if that has already been mentioned)
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quote:
Originally posted by Donnah
Something doesn't add up here. If the flea powder is safe for dogs, whose bodies are generally much smaller than ours, then why are people supposed to wear rubber gloves to protect us from absorbing it the way dogs do?
That sounds like the amalgam issue. Amalgam in the dentist's office is handled by stringent guidelines for handling toxic material. Scrap amalgam is handled as toxic waste. So we are supposed to believe that the only place amalgam is "safely" stored is in our mouths??? Absurd.
I agree with you, Donnah. I asked the vet once about Frontline. It travels subcutaneously around your pet and hangs around under their skin for 30 or so days. I refused to use it after that. He said he wouldn't use it either.
My dogs don't come inside the house, so a few fleas on them aren't really a problem. Providing you can get your dog (or cat, I guess) used to the fleas, without scratching or biting, they enjoy a simbiotic relationship. After all, fleas and animals were together a long time before we started covering the animals in chemicals and killing them with cancers. It's not like they can complain, either.
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Its funny you should mention the tv thing as I was in maplins the other day and decided to take a tech approach. I got a pitch emitting thing that you carry around / leave lieing around. Its supposed to be a repelant. Dont really know how effective it is as I did another house bomb yesterday as well. Gave them the killer pills and then did that thing like with the dog, rubbing the repelant in with gloves. Locked them in as well and made them trapse around each room. I think its just a case of patience now as I've already picked a couple o fleas off myself just typing this. I dont think theres that much more I can do at the moment as I've used quite a range of products. I'd love to stick my tv on the floor and leave it on but its broke so thats not really an option at the moment. I like the cat trying to get the duck image, it reminded me that I wanted to try something similar :¬)
"After all, fleas and animals were together a long time before we started covering the animals in chemicals and killing them with cancers. It's not like they can complain, either."
me me me! - try sleeping with the suckers crawling on you all night. I've had to try getting used to it so I can actually get some sleep and then when I get up I've got a fresh batch of lovely bleeding bites...nice :¬<
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Yeah, I can see your point. Your house is probably filled with eggs anyway, and the bombs will only wipe out the live ones, so they'll be back. With the problems you're having, you need professional help. Talk to a pest controller. Even better, talk to a real estate agent. Find a new house.
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Some of the bombs will kill the eggs too. Just read the label.
If you go for the new house approach, you also need to go for a whole new set of furniture and personal belongings.
A good fire is the ultimate solution.
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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Remind me to never ask you guys how to get rid of crabs!
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You could also move to the next County and replace every member of your family, friends and pets.
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Crabs, eh. Boiling water with salt. Best cooked live...oh, not that type. A razor and a tomahawk.
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I bet a good fire would get rid of crabs too. [:D]
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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Well, my girly went to the vets on my behalf yesterday, said the receptionist was a bit dumb. Eventually she got some interesting info though. If the fleas swarm the kitties faces then theres a good chance their not cat fleas but rabbit fleas and require different measures to kill. This is the fun part, I can take the kitties to the vets for a free apointment to check whether they have fleas! Apparantly I need a vets approval or something to get frontline and programme (program?). Guess a trip to the vets is my next call, hope they have some flea meds for me as well since I've got almost as many fleas as my kitties :¬(
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At this particular time, I would not recommend a Naked Scientist group hugfest !! (no offence Tann Sann)...but good luck[:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Broca
http://www.holisticmed.com/dental/amalgam/
http://www.algonet.se/~leif/AmFAQigr.html
Donnah...how are ya....check those 2 sites out..it isn't safe in our mouths either.
Thanks Broca, I particularly like the holisticmed link. Guess you missed the old threads when I talked about having had mercury poisoning, mainly from dental amalgams. I figure that the dental associations know full well how toxic the stuff is (how many old dentists do you know who handle amalgam?) but will not admit it for monetary reasons until the baby boomers die off in another 50 - 60 years. When everyone who could sue them out of existence is dead they'll release some patronizing "whoops we goofed" statement. I'd like to get my hands on them all and plug their teeth full of amalgam.
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back to the water thing though.
maybe cats don't like water because when you are putting them in a bath, YOU are PUTTING them in the bath. All the cats I've known have liked to call the shots. They always know when they are forced to do something, and they can sense when humans think something will be unpleasant for them and then react accordingly.
I had a cat that hated bathing. The other one didn't mind so much. We gave up on cat #1 since she was quite clean anyway. However,after a while she would get jealous and/or curious when cat #2 had a bath. So she would jump in to play. Not only did we get her to have a bath by not forcing her to do so, she even let us blow dry her (please don't call the RSPCA -I was very opposed to the blow dryer)
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But you still had to put the first cat in the bath to lure in the second one. So why was the first one relaxed about it ?
Chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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i have to laugh so hard about your stories of cats afraid of water!
years ago i owned a terrific cat. i would fill up my bathtub and come back and charlie would be in the water. when i took a bath, charlie would be right there climbing in. one time i had the bath water too hot and charlie jumped in anyway. he is the only cat out of many that loved to swim! he never read that book that said cats were afraid of water! god bless old charlie!!!!