Naked Science Forum
General Science => General Science => Topic started by: neilep on 29/04/2006 00:53:41
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Dowsing to me is a load of old croc !
Now that is just my opinion, I am not stating a fact.
But, is there any truth to it at all ?
Have there really been any serious scientific studies into this ?
I'm here to be persuaded otherwise.
Thanks
Neily
xxxx
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
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Hi Neil, Funny how you just keep posting Questions right up my alley!
We moved to the home we are living in in 1967. My parents and grandparents set about trying to find water as the property sits about between 300 to 500ft above sea level. We had several people try the diving Rods with no luck.
My grandmother suggested that each of us children try.(seven of us) So we did. I picked up the rods and stood facing the east, nothing happened. I turned toward the south , still nothing, then I moved to a westernly position and lo and behold the rods began to move ever so slighty. I began to walk forward they continued to move closer together. when I reached a point where the rods crossed my stepfather flagged the spot. then we moved into the area to the front of the property and we did it again resting at a spot about 20 feet from our property line. That spot was marked and flagged. The next day my family went to work digging.
After a good days worth of digging, the well man came with his auger, as what they found indicated a good water hole. Each spot I had dowsed landed square in the middle of an underground spring which we still use today. One of the wells is 100feet deep and the other 125+ feet deep.It is the best water in the county, I felt very privileged to have been a part of it.
I still have my divining Rods which my Grandma believed should remain with me. She said, "not everyone has the ability to find water." Her Quote not mine. I don't know how it works and don't pretend to know, but I can tell you I did not cross the wands myself, they crossed on their own. It was very cool to see the wells go in at my points of divining, and that here it is 39 years later, and we are still using the same well. As a matter of fact, yesterday my husband and I took out the old pump. The original went out in 74, this one has been in since then, for the last 32 years. It finally quit yesterday. Today we are back in the water, same old well new pump! We do not have city water. If we were to need it during a huge repair or something, we could have had it turned on if needed, and have water during power outages lasting more then a day or two.
We have decided to buy a generator for those times the power goes. During the storms this year we had to have city water for two weeks and my head and body broke out in a rash. I think it is the fluoride and things they put in the water we drink if you have city water. The rash disappeared within a few days of the well being back up. I break out every time we loose power for an extended period of time. (City water).So does my hubby!
So What ever scientific basis dowsing has or has not, I personally do very much believe it works and would do it again if we ever had to find water again. I will throw in a nice Jar of water in your pack. HEHEHE! You will see how nice it is! No Chlorine or fluoride though.
By the way, I have also dowsed for water with the original two willow branches and a single willow with a split branch, "Y" shaped. They both work equally well. Mine are two metal rods. I don't know what type metal though. I just know they worked for us!
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i'm highly skeptical but even so here's an article on it.
http://www.hlla.com/reference/dowsing.html
Michael
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Trying to make science out of dowsing using your logical mind is impossible. You never prove it works or not. It all about getting in touch with a level of understanding that required you to let go of trying to be rational. I know people personally who do this professionally they can find object water and among other things. I have seen it happen. I have also seen it not happening. But when it works it is simply the correct answer to what ever id needed and it is pointless to try to understand it in any other way but on the level of it can work.
What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
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I agree. I have seen people find oil with divining. It works for them but not for others and, as a scientist, I must say that suspending the ratioal mind is difficult. Yet when I have been able to do this I am very pleased by the results.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open. -- A. Einstein
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quote:
Originally posted by JimBob
I agree. I have seen people find oil with divining. It works for them but not for others and, as a scientist, I must say that suspending the ratioal mind is difficult. Yet when I have been able to do this I am very pleased by the results.
Why “suspending the ratioal mind”?
The rational mind does not require that the real world conform to scientific theory, but that scientific theory should adapt to take into account observed reality.
George
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It is a choice George. Your rational mind is a tool that your can turn off or on as your need to, unless it runs your head. For example any person who has mastered anything that requires them to perform a complex movement to perfection has to suspend the rational mind or chatterbox if they are to do it. This tool can only keep a very few balls in the air at one time. Performing a Kata (a set of preset movements done in a precise order) in karate requires the use Balance, speed, posture, power, and direction not to mention every nuisance of movement needed to achieve main objective of perfection. Letting go of the mind is completely needed. You enter into a state of being present in that moment. Free of the past and the future just in the now. It there that you find perfection, it there that you most aware. I believe that only in that state could you get in touch with an ability like dowsing. Master of Zen who teach the use movement as a means to gain enlightenment, do so by teaching focus and awareness . Any such method that helps us become truly aware of the moment in such a path even dowsing. The rational mind would simply be in the way of such a process.
What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
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I have heard that dowsing doesn't work on a double blind test. I don't know how often it has been tested properly when looking for buried water. You would have to compare it to a random selection of places to drill, and possibly a hydralic engineer.
I have also had it remarked that one reason for it's sucess is that if you dig for long enough there is normally water down there...
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Hadrian There you have it,.... Thats the answer, I have never had a rational mind to get in my way.....HEHEHEHEHE! I have always been a bit thick in the rational mind area!
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This is very interesting. Karen, you amaze me with your talents.
I have to say I am by nature very skeptical and would need to witness this myself, even better if I experienced it.
If there is a science behind it it may well lead the way to a whole new non invasive way of discovery. If it is true then there must be a way of measuring it.
I wonder if any dowsers have had success in finding oil whilst upon the ocean ?..or is dowsing primarily a watersport ?...(ooh)
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
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No, they douse for minerals also, but I know nothing about that. I am solely only versed in the water aspect of it all. It really is quite odd. You hold these diving rods in your hands firmly and start to move forward. The two rods will start to move, sometimes outwardly which means you are not heading for water, keep moving or turn aand walk forward again. they will begin to move slightly till they cross each other. Kind of an X marks the spot sort of thing. When they crossed over into an X, that is where we would dig. We found several spots but the ones that did not make a positve X we avoided to find a more diffinitive spot. Where they made an X not just crossed at the top half. Strange method, but I have done it and seen it done for about 40 wells, maybe more. I went as a child, It was my
" Gift". Grandmothers love to tell you things like that! My mother could divine as could her grandmother. I remember as a child people would come see my mom to have her come help them out with a well. She never was paid for her services, she did this to help people. I remember one time up on the mountain we were there for a couple hours, They found several spots that were not strong enough, the old boy ended up choosing two of the locations mom had found. One she said would not be suitable felt as if it was a small stream not sufficiant for what he wanted, the other was a very strong point. He had the drillers dig both as he needed two wells. Funny thing was the one she warned him about ened up dryng up every summer. The second one, the stronger of the two, was a very good well and ended up doing double duty in the summer as the other dried up. It would always be fine during winter months, but not summertime!
It really is very interesting and I know nothing about it on a scientific basis, but just experience as a child and young adult. I must say, She never missed and she was good, as people could not afford to have someone drill more then once. She could basicly tell you by the wand about how far down she felt they would hit water. I don't know how that part worked. I was not that good. Did not have the years experience she had!
I think it is all magnetic pull or something, who knows the basis, but I must say I do believe. Neil you should buy yourself a set of Divining rods! I don't even know if you can or where you can get them. You might enjoy the try!.....Karen
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Thanks Karen.
With my tiny garden, I doubt I'll have much luck in finding anything, and if I did...I don't really want to dig up my back yard (lol) it's not much bigger than a windowbox !
No, best thing is for you to send me some first class tickets *cheeky smirk* to your neck of the woods so that we may go divining together !
You mentioned that people dowse for all sorts of things, I realise ' water ' is your speciality but I wonder if there are Divinig rods that are made of different things with regard to what you are searching for...else, how do the rods know what you/they are looking for ? You certainly have a gift Karen.
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
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You know that is a good question. My Family were all water dousers. I don't really know much about the minerals and any other things. It does make sense though that they would be different , doesn't it?
I would love to send you some tickets, And since I am as broke as a girl can be, We will both have to "DIVINE" another way for you to come visit and bring the family, or vice versa! Souds Like fun to me! HEHEHE!
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quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.
It really is very interesting and I know nothing about it on a scientific basis, but just experience as a child and young adult. I must say, She never missed and she was good, as people could not afford to have someone drill more then once. She could basicly tell you by the wand about how far down she felt they would hit water. I don't know how that part worked. I was not that good. Did not have the years experience she had! I think it is all magnetic pull or something, who knows the basis, but I must say I do believe.
Doubt that it has anything much to do with magnetism.
You probably could detect underground water or minerals using gravitational anomolies, but you'd have to convince that the human being is that sensitive to such minute changes in gravity (but it still must remain a theoretical possibility).
To my mind, it is more likely that it is a response to very small traces of water vapour that have seeped to the surface.
One question I do have – can you detect underground water in a humid environment as easily as in a dry environment?
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Neil you should buy yourself a set of Divining rods! I don't even know if you can or where you can get them.
I always thought that almost anything could be improvised as a divining rod, and you didn't need to buy anything particularly elaborate – but then, what do I know – all I know of divining is pure hearsay.
George
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Another someone, You are right as far I know,like I said in my first post. As a child I also used a single willow with a split branch as well as two willow branches. As I recall my Grandma picked two which were pretty evenly matched as far as size and Length. As memory serves me they were probably just under 3 feet long. I don't know if they are anydifferent for minerals etc.
As far as a dry enviorment or a humid one. We live in Humboldt county, a very wet damp foggy hole of a county. Coastal region in Northern California.It can be pretty gloomy but it is very beautiful here.It is very lush here most of the time. I live inland about 7 miles and the weather runs about 82 to 86 in the summer months, although there are many days that bolt up to 1oo or so. 7 miles to the coast the weather is usually around upper 60's low 70's in the summer. It is a pretty damp area and we never had any trouble in either place. Now you have to keep in mind I haven't done this since I was a young adult, and I am almost 46 years old. I think the last time was in about 1981 the year I was married. We went and helped a friend of my mothers with a new well site.
I must say they have been hanging in my linnen closet since. I let my children try them as youngsters. Something I hadn't thought about in many years. I am probably as interested as anyone about a scientific explanation. It is definitely interesting and I would like to know more myself.
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quote:
Originally posted by neilep
I wonder if there are Divinig rods that are made of different things
Quote from David Sparkman posted - 29 Jul 2005 : 21:01:36:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=927
"For those who would like to try for themselves, take two metal coat hangers. Cut the hook out of them and remove one of the top sides of the hanger. Bend the remaining wire into an L shape. Repeat with second hanger. Hold each L loosely in your left and right hands long piece a half inch (centimeter) above the fingers, and the short end in the palm of your hand but passing in front of your smallest finger. Hold the rods level but loose enough to rotate. place your hands 6 to 12 inches apart and walk slowly across where you suspect a utility line or pipe to be buried. When the two rods start to turn inwards, you have a positive signal. How strong the signal you get depends on you. For me the rods will turn a full 90 degrees. My friends are lucky to get 30 degrees, but then you don't want my medical problems hehe.."
May I suggest that you could use two old Biro type pens, remove their centers, pass the coathangers through the pens, and grip the pens, not the coathangers, so the coathangers can swing freely.
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I use two bits of fencing wire to find water on the estate, usually only one rod will move inwards. I have not failed yet, it also works with phone cables, electricity cables etc and if I hold them over my dogs they also show a reaction to energy. I don't know the science behind it but a quess would be the electromagnetic route. There are builders on the estate at the moment with electronic gadgets that are meant to do the same thing thing ie find cables pipes etc, but these gadgets are not 100% accurate and the fencing wire is.
Al
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I find it difficult to believe that there is anythig in dowsing. but we used to do it at work with new members of our group using a pair bent welding rods as dowsing rods. When I was a new member of the group I got my turn and walked about the large laboratory with the rods in my hand. Nothing much happened until I got to one particular spot where the rods seemed to take on a life of their own and crossed and when I moved away they uncrossed. This is a very wierd feeling. I was told that most other perople in the group who tried it found exactly the same thing happened at exactly the same place and later I was able to see this proved with other new team members. We have no idea why the rods behaved like that because we coudnt dig things up to find out what was underneath but whatever caused the effect it was consistent over many years with many individuals.
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
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Well, If Ian has had experience then I simply must try this....do you think if I fashion some rods out of a metal coat hanger, will that be sufficient ?
In addition to the rods, has anyone conducted said experiment with a compass ? ...I mean they are sensitive aren't they ?..and you would think if the effect can move some rods it's bound to move a compass needle !!
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
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Hmmmm! Maybe, interesting idea!
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quote:
Originally posted by neilep
Well, If Ian has had experience then I simply must try this....do you think if I fashion some rods out of a metal coat hanger, will that be sufficient ?
In addition to the rods, has anyone conducted said experiment with a compass ? ...I mean they are sensitive aren't they ?..and you would think if the effect can move some rods it's bound to move a compass needle !!
The force on the metal dowsing rods could be due to electric charge,
this would not show on a compass, it would show on an electroscope (if a charge were present).
Here is a site with instructions how to make your own electroscope:-
http://www.nfinity.com/~exile/electro.htm
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Robert...thank you...I'll get straight on to building my own electroscope !!..YAYYYYYY !![;)]
...but I'm a tad confused why a compass will NOT be affected akin to dowsing rods !..you would think that a delictae compass would in fact be more sensitive would it not ?...after all...aren't the dowsing rods acting the same way ?
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
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quote:
Originally posted by neilep
Robert...thank you...I'll get straight on to building my own electroscope !!..YAYYYYYY !![;)]
Very "Blue Peter" and a lot cheaper than a Giger counter.
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...but I'm a tad confused why a compass will NOT be affected akin to dowsing rods !..you would think that a delictae compass would in fact be more sensitive would it not ?...after all...aren't the dowsing rods acting the same way ?
1. I don't know if metal dowsing rods do work.
2. If they do work it could be due to electric forces, not magnetic ones: the rods could be deflected like the components of the electroscope. A magnetic compass will not be deflected by a static electric field. A compass placed close to a wire in which a strong current is flowing will show a deflection because of the induced magnetic field.
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I know from experience not to take a bearing from inside a landrover, the needle will move. I am off out soon so with the dogs, I will take a compass and try it out over known water, telephone and electric pipes/cables.
Al
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neil
i poop you not,I CAN DO THIS,if you want a practical demonstration e-mail me i will give you my address,and you can pop down and have a demo,and a cuppa,honestly,i CAN do it,i dont know how or why,its a gift, thats all[^]
http://www.armybarmy.org
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Ray..that's cool.
I may well take you up on that....Soon I'll be travelling all over the south east so I may take you up on your kind invitation...besides...I really wanna test drive a tank !!..YAYYYYYY !!!
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
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Is Rommel getting some competition here??
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open. -- A. Einstein
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We could have a TNS day out.
While i'm flattening everyone's cars in Rays cheiftan Tank, Ray could be teaching everyone else how to find water, sounds good to me
Michael
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That's a great idea.....I've often said that The naked Scientist should pay for all of us to get together....preferably all expenses paid and First Class.....we could go on a round the world field trip in the name of science !! [;)]
Regarding the dowsing rods....I suppose I'd only be 100% convinced if the rods work when I'm holding them !!...but I will bow to an impressive demonstration also ! [:)]
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
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i'll leave it too you to break the bad news to ray ;)
Michael
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Go for it Neil, I think I will send you my old rods for sure!
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Hi, a new member login in here...
I had to comment on my own experience here too, since you tickled my interest [:D]
I am from Finland where dowsing for water has been used for a long time.
The reason me and a friend decided to try it out was that my friend had moved to a new house, but for some reason her other daughter would not sleep properly in the new home. She was usually falling asleep easy and hardly ever woke up during the night.This went on for few months before we decided to start experimenting.
One theory we came up with was that there may be something in the position of the bed and decided to dowse the house for water.
We used a simple silver ring hanging on a thread, rather than the rods most people use.
The ring did not sway or move anywhere apart from in the bathroom and right above her daughters bed. And in these places it was swinging rather wildly. We also got 2 other people to try the same, without telling them anything about her daughters sleeping problem, and they got the same results in the same places.
So in the name of experiment, we moved her bed to other side of the room, and she has been sleeping well ever since.
I also have a rose quartz pendulum that I recently bought in vain attempt to see if I could dowse for other things. SO far I can report that I can not get definate answers to life universe and everything....[;)]
So as it comes to finding water, I believe it works, when it comes to dowsing for other things, I still remain a sceptic.
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It's all bollox! And anyone who thinks it isn't can prove it by taking up James 'the Great' Randi's challenge, and win themselves a million dollars!
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Roy P
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Plus, as DaveShorts has already pointed out, wherever you dig the chances of finding water is pretty high.
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Roy P
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Metal dowsing rods definitely work but so do hazel twigs. A dowsing device is an unstable object that can respond to small changes in the way that you hold it. If there IS anything in it it is probably your body reacting to a change in static electrical field in the area.
Static electrical fields are really funny things and can be detected using an electrode connected to a mosfet amplifier. Many years ago I assessed an intruder detector that was built this way. It would detect people coming into a room quite easily and could even detect a person tensing and untensing the muscles of their arm from a distance of several metres. Unfortunalely it would also detect people switching flourecent lights on and off and so was very subject to interference and not reliable as an intruder alarm.
The human body is also sensitive to changes of static electrical field and thus can feed back to trigger a dowsing effect when the local electrical field gradient changes. these changes in field gradient may be associated with varous natural phenomena but I would not expect them to be particularly reliable.
Magnetic field deviations and gravitational field deviations are also used in surveying for underground objects but in general much more sensitive detectors than compass needles or pendulums are used to carry out serious surveys.
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
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Thanks soul surfer that is good imformation and very informative. That device seemed to be a cool device was there any way to modify it so it was less sensitive to other stimuli? Was it the body flipping the switch or the florescent light itself that set it off? I am assuming it was the arm in motion, akin to the muscle being flexed....karen
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I do believe there is a science to divining. Ok to explain as example solar panel works with magnetism and kinetic energy. A warm spot and a cold spot create magnetism which in turn creates a kinetic energy in the middle from atoms moving back and forth. So with underground water you would have the warm surfaces around it and the cold from the water which is normally 20 degree colder than dirt and air. Then the movement of the water would create a kinetic energy. Be it a metal rod or a tree limb with minerals in it. This should create a pull much like a lode stone would on a piece of metal. it is more than just chance. I think if some one took time to figure it out from a science or mechanical point of view they could possible get it to a 90 percent chance or above. Simply put cold=negative Hot=positive both put together with something in the middle of them with minerals in it equal magnetic. Which is how a lot of stuff underground is measured with modern tools
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I do believe there is a science to divining.
You are mistaken.
Ok to explain as example solar panel works with magnetism and kinetic energy. A warm spot and a cold spot create magnetism which in turn creates a kinetic energy in the middle from atoms moving back and forth.
That isn't even remotely close to how a solar panel works.
So with underground water you would have the warm surfaces around it and the cold from the water which is normally 20 degree colder than dirt and air. Then the movement of the water would create a kinetic energy. Be it a metal rod or a tree limb with minerals in it. This should create a pull much like a lode stone would on a piece of metal.
The attraction you describe does not exist as no significant macroscopic magnetic fields are generated solely from temperature differences between water and soil or air. Also water in thermal contact with soil for significant amounts of time will tend to be the same temperature as the soil in contact with it due to thermodynamics.
it is more than just chance. I think if some one took time to figure it out from a science or mechanical point of view they could possible get it to a 90 percent chance or above. Simply put cold=negative Hot=positive both put together with something in the middle of them with minerals in it equal magnetic. Which is how a lot of stuff underground is measured with modern tools
Once again you are mistaken and that is definitely not how magnetism works.
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I do believe there is a science to divining.
There is; the physical side is called the ideomotor effect (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect), the psychological side involves some or all of expectation bias, confirmation bias, the Texas Sharpshooter effect, the band-waggon effect, choice-supportive bias, framing, the clustering illusion, hindsight bias, illusory correlation, the overconfidence effect, self-serving bias, selective reporting, in-group bias, etc. (I probably missed some). See Cognitive Biases (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases). The science suggests the divining effect isn't real.
Ok to explain as example solar panel works with magnetism and kinetic energy. A warm spot and a cold spot create magnetism which in turn creates a kinetic energy in the middle from atoms moving back and forth.
Nope, solar panels use the photoelectric effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoelectric_effect).
Then the movement of the water would create a kinetic energy.
You don't seem to understand what energy is; it's not some sort of stuff that gets created, it's an indirectly observed quantity; kinetic energy (http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/energy/Lesson-1/Kinetic-Energy) is what something has by virtue of its motion and depends on its speed and mass.
I think if some one took time to figure it out from a science or mechanical point of view they could possible get it to a 90 percent chance or above. Simply put cold=negative Hot=positive both put together with something in the middle of them with minerals in it equal magnetic.
I'm afraid that's nonsense. To quote Wolfgang Pauli, "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong."
There have been many controlled tests of dowsing and it never works. You may think that's because an artificial test isn't like dowsing out in the real world, but an important part of such tests is to get the dowser's agreement that the test conditions are acceptable and the test is one they feel they can easily succeed at. Then they are given a 'dummy run', where they are told the position of the material that they are to dowse for, and allowed to ensure that they can detect it as they expect, and that they get no false positives from the other locations where the material could be hidden. When they are fully satisfied that they have successfully dowsed the given material in the given test situation, the material is moved to a random position without their knowledge (which could be the same position they dowsed in the dummy run), and they are asked to find it. They never do any better than chance, and are often shocked by their failure. They also tend to make all kinds of excuses, despite having previously agreed they were happy with the conditions and that they could successfully dowse when they knew where the material was.
There have been suggestions that when dowsing for water, the terrain or vegetation provides subliminal cues to where water is likely to be, which sounds plausible, but a number of tests have shown that this doesn't seem to be the case (except for obvious situations like dry stream beds). There have also been suggestions that electromagnetic fields created or warped by moving water or that changes in water vapour density (local humidity) might be detected, but again, tests show that such fields are at the threshold of instrumental detection, and even electromagnetic fields many times stronger can't be detected by a dowser, likewise for local humidity changes.
So not only does it fail under controlled testing, but there is no plausible mechanism for detection; the physics of everyday life constrains the possibilities. Movement of dowsing rods or pendulums can be explained by the ideomotor effect.
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I work at a water utility, and an old guy taught me, Now it is a when all else fails, recorded measurements, locators, gpr no good due to high clay soils, and we have had a 75% guess of locating water and sewer mains etc. when all else fails.
We at the cabins built main one in the 20's, second one in the 50's, needed to locate water, sewer, cable lines for underground electric. I did it with warlock sticks, as we call them.
Now my 86 year old mom was like really? I said sire here they are, a couple of bent coat hangers. Hold them lightly walk and see what happens. She walked the rods twisted inwards, drain line from the bunkhouse to the septic system, she happened to hit on.
Was on another board, described bending the coat hangers at a 90degree with 3 or four inches, hold them as level and loosely as possible, and just walk down the sidewalk in front of your house.
He did, the rods moved and he was so freaked he vowed never to do it again.
I am not familiar with dwsing for wells or minerals etc., but it works well for buried utilities for me. My thought why is the soil is disturbed during installation and somehow the warlock sticks are picking up on that.
I have heard so many refutals, probably 100 times the number of people that will try it, don't worry you will probably burn in hell for other things.