Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Chemistry => Topic started by: topsy27 on 21/06/2005 22:52:23
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Hi - my next door neighbour has a water leak under his drive. The local water authority say it's from an underground spring. He thinks it's from a water pipe which is very close by. The water authority have tested it and say it's definitely natural. We tested it tonight and it tested positive for chlorine (DPD test). We did a tap water test and it came up exactly the same result with the same pH and DPD. Does Chlorine occur naturally in underground spring water? If it exists as a chloride, would it test positive on the DPD test and confuse matters? HELP!
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I think that the DPD test is probably testing for oxidising agents of sufficient strength which the chlorate is one.
http://ps.slss.ie/downloads/ch_cw_swimmingpoolwater.pdf
has a bit about this.
This means that the test shouldn't pick up chloride ions which could occur in underground spring water, I would be very surprised if spring water had anything very oxidising in it... but I am not a chemist.
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http://www.aquaspex.com.au/products/microtest/chlorine.html
Looks like they are wrong and you are right. You might like to take this opportunity to find out who might pay for any repairs, perhaps it's pipes that connect to your house, you or your insurance may have to pay! You should check your insurance before you call out the engineers to check again. At the moment you have a promise from the council it is not from the pipes...
You have done some good controls, by testing your tap water, if you knew the position of any actual local springs or streams you could test that water too. However, it deosn't seem that there are any possible contaminants that might cause the same result. The only reason I might be suspicious of the result is whether the test is designed to detect chlorine in the right range, as the concentration in pool-water is a thousand or so times greater and tests designed for pool water are less likely to be useful at such a low concentration, check the box.
Also, consider springs may become more active after heavy rain when the water table is high.
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Just replace the pipe with the new nylon stuff, simple to install and it has some efficient couplings. The old steel pipes corrode over years and need to be replaced. Unfortunately, the water boards responsibility now only includes the water main to the outside of your property. So you need to get them to put a new junction in at the source to afford you a clean coupling to the new pipe. The pipe connectors are compression joints using hand tightened threaded nylon collars. But use a little P.T.F.E. plumbers tape to make sure the joints are sound. Then test any joints before you bury them. I uses some lengths of cane taped together and pushed under the floor boards and taped to the nylon tube in order to pull it through without lifting the floor boards in my house.
The nylon can then be attached to your existing copper pipe-work using a 22mil coupling and a reducer to take it down to 15mil. You need to dig a trench down to two spade depth, so as to avoid accidental damage to the pipe. Also a golden opportunity to have a broadband cable connection installed at the same time.
Leave the old pipe under the drive and re-route the new one so as to avoid digging up the driveway. Got the T shirt on this one :)
Andrew
"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
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Hi everyone - thanks very much for your responses. I think my neighbour is going to dig up the top of his drive to find the leak once and for all. We think it's in the path just outside, so fingers crossed it won't be his problem. At the moment his drive looks like the surface of the moon, it's been so eroded by the water. According to our water company, underground springs can have chlorine in them! Never heard of this one before, but it's funny it's the same concentration as that in our tap water!!!
Really appreciate your efforts on this!
Wendy
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Hi My name is Jeff and I have just stumbled across this forum on a quest for info. The web-site looks awesome and interesting. But back to my question for now.
I will try to keep this simple. Ha Ha. I currently have more than a little bit of water in back yard. No it was not there even three weeks ago. Parts of my yard are very mushy, and parts actually have puddles. much of my usually very dry yard (at this time of year) are damp if not muddy. We have been in this home for about 4 years and nothing like this has happened before. However, underneath my house is always a bit damp and even muddy in some area year round. about 4 years ago I was digging a fence post and at about 1 and a half to two feet water started filling my hole and it stayed full for quite a while and then dried up not to return until now. Directly above this hole from what seems to be the ground under my neigbors garage water is coming up through the ground and then runs down hill filling up my unfinished post hole this hasn't stopped flowing for at least two to three weeks. The water dept. is suppossed to come out tomorrow to determine if it is their problem or not. I don't think so, but I am at a loss as to what to do. We live in Roseburg Oregon this has been a relatively dry year and this didn't occur until about 4th of July weekend. We are in a hily area at the top of a knoll in the middle of the hilly area. The water temp. of the water out of the ground is about 5 degrees C colder that tap water. My main concerns are the large number of insects gathering in my yard to party. and the thought that this may be creating a sink hole below my house or may otherwise cause my home to settle and shift. This home was built in 1949 and there are no signs of significant settling to this point. Any thoughts ideas suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
jeff Retke
Jeffery W Retke
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This is almost certainly a leak. It's colder than tap water because the internal pipework around the house allows the water to warm up slightly on its way to the tap.
I'd have a chat to your neighbour on the uphill side of your property (where the water appears to be originating) and see if you can locate the source.
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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Thanks for the quick reply, and the water company is confirming your diagnosis. My neigbor is not very happy and I guess dosnt' want to believe the water company. Oh well. Is it possible/likely that this has been going on a long time and has been causing the dampness underneath my house for years, but has now become a much larger leak, or could the dampness be due to something else? Like I said before underneath my house never dries up and is actually quite muddy in some area all summer long. Thanks again
Jeff R
Jeffery W Retke
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It's possible that your house is in the mud thanks to a water leak, but, remember, there may be more than one leak !
Chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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If I were you, I would get your foundations checked, because that amount of water may well undermine your foundations, causing them to sink when the water problem is resolved. Look for cracks in the walls, uually a good indication of foundations sinking.
"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
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My neighbor and I were out checking this problem out last night and after much vigilant watching decided that his meter is not moving with his water off, neither is mine. I guess we are having the water people back out today, but we are at a loss as to where this could be coming from now. We also checked the neigbors meter who is last before the hill dips off the other direction and it also does not register any water flow. Any ideas about how to pinpoint the leak would be most helpful. Thanks
Jeff
Jeffery W Retke
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OK. The city water people were out today with my neighbor and now they are saying the water is from the apartments across the street and up the hill. I hope this is an accurate diagnosis this time. All I know is I still have a lot of water and a lot of bees and other bugs. Thanks for all the help everybody. This looks like such a great site. I hope to visit often when I'm not playing in the mud.
Jeff R
Jeffery W Retke
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Ok, now that the source of water seems to be accurately established I am not sure what to do. This may not be the right forum to discuss this so if some one could point me in the right direction I would really appreciate it. The water is coming from a rental property across the street. I have no idea how long this may have been leaking, underneath my house has been muddy wet for years. I am worried about the foundation settling etc. My insurance company was worthless. I have so far had limited contact with the property management company. I have a call into a lawyer ( which i won't be able to afford) I have to wait until next week to call legal aid. What I want is my foundation checked out, and repaired if necessary and I don't want to pay a dime. Any thoughts on this would be very helpful. Maybe if some one is aware of a law forum that might be helpful. I am just at a loss of what to do next.
Jeff R
Jeffery W Retke
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there's nothing to do as of yet unless you've got water coming into your home. other than that it's a waiting game. water around your foundations should'nt cause any problems unless its as i said earlier its getting into the house. most foundation issue's i believe are caused when the earth below dry's out to much causing shrinkage, your foundations should be strong enough to cope with a bit of excess water,just keep an eye on your walls look for cracks and if you notice anything call out a surveyer or your insurance company tell them what you know and wait for the report. and then take it from there. either that or ring a surveyer now and ask his opinion. but the most important thing is dont forget your insurance payments.
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My insurance company says they won't cover this. I've contacted a lawyer. I don't feel it is a good idea to wait 6mos a year or longer to establish liability. However, I may just be stuck with whatever happens. Thanks for the help. Any other ideas are always welcome
Jeff R
Jeffery W Retke
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But no one is liable yet as no damage has been done. You can’t sue for structural problems that have not happened yet.
In the UK most of us have insurance that covers the structure our properties.
If you do get problems in the future and if it can be accredited to the leaking pipe then the person who's land the leak is on should be the one who is liable and there insurance should pay as you have none. But things may be done different in my country
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a while ago i got took out with a network controller (deals with water pipes) this was for work experience. i got shown this trick to see if u have a leak, turn off all tapes, boilers e.c.t and go the water meter usally out side your house, and see if the water meter increases over a hour (or wot ever time) if so you have a leak.
hope it helps
sir loony