Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Geology, Palaeontology & Archaeology => Topic started by: strongfoundation1 on 12/08/2010 03:24:28
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I have some important questions to inquire about here but I can only ask them to a certain person or rather certain people in the know. What I mean is are there any people (Geologists) here who if I told them that I wanted them to be part of a team of people to build an vintage Ferrari from scratch and I need you to find all the raw materials for every piece of the automobile, they or you all would be able to do it comfortably. (steel, iron, copper, aluminum, and others) Is there anyone here with those skills/knowledge set? Only someone with that skillset can answer the question I need to ask here.
I have my fingers crossed that someone here meets this criteria...
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I'm sure there are. This could be a rather expensive undertaking, but I have to wonder why you would start from raw materials mined from the ground. I'm pretty sure vintage Ferraris incorporated a fair amount of recycled metal, so starting with raw materials might not make a reproduction any more authentic.
Would it not make more sense to analyse the alloy compositions of an original and duplicate those alloys?
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And there is also the rubber of the wiring and tires, cloth for the seats and fibers for the cushions. More than just metals in a vintage Ferrari.
There are at least 6 people who post here that are professional geologists or students. One of the more frequent posters is a student who is more abreast of current thinking than an old guy like me who was educated as a geologist in the 60's and because of working full time has been hard pressed to keep up with current thinking.
Geology has become more and more segregated into specialties in the last 40 years. It is difficult to keep up even with your specialty unless you read new papers almost every day.
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I'm sure there are.
Well, I just want to be 100% sure that someone knowledgeable in this area is present before I go into details about my plan. I hope those persons are able to see this thread soon and identify themselves. :) I do this because I have inquired about my plans in other mediums and I have received advice but I'm always very reluctant to follow it. This is because the people who gave me advice work in Geology related fields but they are not 100% absolutely sure that they could do what I'm trying to learn about. And that is raises my doubts. I feel perfectly comfortable if someone who advises me is able to definitively state that they are able to do the work with no problems. :) I'll be patient and wait though! :)
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There are a number of geologists on here that could identify suitable ores to extract metals from (and some likely locations). I suspect some could also discuss the techniques needed to extract, concentrate and refine those ores too.
I guess the difficulty is whether you are looking for people with actual hands on experience of the necessary processes. For example, whislt there are people that have experience of the extractive industries, I am not so sure that anyone on here has actually physically minned haemeatite, coal and limestone, coked the coal, produced the quick lime, built and operated a blast furnace and a bessemer converter, to produce steel...
However, I am sure we can help with the theory and offer some tips. Try us!
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As an economic geologist (mining industry) I'll be happy to try to help- but need more specific information as to what to want (raw ore? processed materials?) and where these materials need to be found.
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I guess the difficulty is whether you are looking for people with actual hands on experience of the necessary processes. For example, whislt there are people that have experience of the extractive industries, I am not so sure that anyone on here has actually physically minned haemeatite, coal and limestone, coked the coal, produced the quick lime, built and operated a blast furnace and a bessemer converter, to produce steel...
Yes, that is almost exactly the sort of experienced professionals that I am looking. If someone has no hands-on experience then I have no choice but to presume that everything they speak of is speculation. Like I stated, what you have described above is almost exactly what I’m looking for. You left out the first step though. That step is actually locating the materials themselves.
I'll be happy to try to help- but need more specific information as to what to want (raw ore? processed materials?) and where these materials need to be found.
I would need guidance in:
1. the specifics of where and how to go about locating the particular materials/minerals needed such as copper, iron, limestone, etc. (so, you would stating where these materials can be found)
2. how to extract the materials/minerals
3. next, how to turn the raw materials that we now have into the many different metals that we need to manufacture the automobile listed above.
If I am correct, that would be the extent of the Geologist’s role in manufacturing the automobile. Unless there are blacksmiths on this forum, then that would be extent of this forum also. At that point, we would have our different specific metals needed to manufacture the automobile. Next, I would start working with a blacksmith to turn the blocks of different metals into the many different part components that will comprise the automobile.
@Bass – When you see the areas above that I need guidance in, you don’t have to post here how to do what I listed. What I am thinking you will do as you read what I posted is say to yourself, “Ok, I can do everything he listed in steps number one, two, and three easily” OR “I can do steps one and three but not two” or something like that. Once you’ve identified what you can do then you can simply post here what you can or can not do. This way, you (or others also) have briefly and simply identified what you can do and maybe others can chime in and state that they are able to do that what others could not. After that, I can go into the particulars of my plan comfortably. :)
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I would need guidance in:
1. the specifics of where and how to go about locating the particular materials/minerals needed such as copper, iron, limestone, etc. (so, you would stating where these materials can be found)
2. how to extract the materials/minerals
3. next, how to turn the raw materials that we now have into the many different metals that we need to manufacture the automobile listed above.
If I am correct, that would be the extent of the Geologist’s role in manufacturing the automobile. Unless there are blacksmiths on this forum, then that would be extent of this forum also. At that point, we would have our different specific metals needed to manufacture the automobile. Next, I would start working with a blacksmith to turn the blocks of different metals into the many different part components that will comprise the automobile.
@Bass – When you see the areas above that I need guidance in, you don’t have to post here how to do what I listed. What I am thinking you will do as you read what I posted is say to yourself, “Ok, I can do everything he listed in steps number one, two, and three easily” OR “I can do steps one and three but not two” or something like that. Once you’ve identified what you can do then you can simply post here what you can or can not do. This way, you (or others also) have briefly and simply identified what you can do and maybe others can chime in and state that they are able to do that what others could not. After that, I can go into the particulars of my plan comfortably. :)
My profession covers item #1 and #2 (finding and extracting minerals) and I have some experience with #3 (processing)- but a metallurgist could give you more complete guidance in that area. Putting together the necessary alloys is complicated and may require some unusual minerals and processes. How do you propose to cast the metals (ie engine block) or roll steel for other components?
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but a metallurgist could give you more complete guidance in that area. Putting together the necessary alloys is complicated and may require some unusual minerals and processes.
And are there any metallurgists here on the forum that would be able to do this or would I need to seek out a metallurgy focused forum?
Ok, this is my situation.
Me: Student
current goal: build 1957 Ferrari 250 Testa Rossa completely from scratch
knowledge areas required: geology (find materials), mining (extract materials), blacksmithing/metal working (manipulate materials), ?
knowledge already possessed: none
plan of action: study textbooks associated with speicifc university degree required courses that are needed in the “knowledge areas required” section above.
What I’m doing now: studying MIT’s Geology program = reading all the textbooks associated with the requirements for their Bsc Geology degree
http://web.mit.edu/catalog/degre.scien.ch12.html
http://eapsweb.mit.edu/education/undergrad/classes/classes.html
Current textbook:
- Sears and Zemansky's University physics : with modern physics. San Francisco : Pearson Addison Wesley, c2008 0321501217
Completed textbooks:
None
Knowledge gained:
none so far
Current goal: Go through all of the textbooks for the MIT Bsc Geology degree. Attain the required knowledge that will enable me to go out and find the materials that I need to build the abovementioned automobile from scratch. Namely, iron, copper, steel, aluminum, and others
Goals completed:
none
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Below I will list all of the textbooks associated with MIT’s Geology degree. I have to decide whether or not I will read all of the texts because as you will notice they are not all related to what my goal is for going through all the course textbooks associated with MIT’s Geology degree. To state that goal once again, it is to be able to go out and find the materials that I need to build the abovementioned automobile from scratch. Namely, iron, copper, steel, aluminum, and others.
Query:
What specific information is this textbook going to teach me that will show me how to go out and find materials that I need to build the above-mentioned automobile from scratch. Namely, iron, copper, steel, aluminum, and others? If this text does not further my knowledge in this regard then there is NO need for me to read this textbook. HOWEVER, if this textbook will teach me specific information that I will later use in other knowledge areas needed to build the aforementioned automobile from scratch then an exception can be made and I can elect to read the text.
Texts listed in requirement for MIT’s Geology degree (this list will be regularly updated)
1. Sears and Zemansky's University physics : with modern physics. San Francisco : Pearson Addison Wesley, c2008 0321501217
Worth reading ___ Waste of time ___ (check one)
Specific reasons why:
2. Essentials of introductory classical mechanics : MIT 8.01 study guide
Worth reading ___ Waste of time ___ (check one)
Specific reasons why:
3. An introduction to mechanics [by] Daniel Kleppner [and] Robert J. Kolenkow
Worth reading ___ Waste of time ___ (check one)
Specific reasons why:
4. Understanding Earth. New York : W.H. Freeman, c2007
Worth reading ___ Waste of time ___ (check one)
Specific reasons why:
5. How to build a habitable planet / Wallace S. Broecker.
Worth reading ___ Waste of time ___ (check one)
Specific reasons why:
6. Calculus with analytic geometry / George F. Simmons
Worth reading ___ Waste of time ___ (check one)
Specific reasons why:
7. Calculus / by Tom M. Apostol
Worth reading ___ Waste of time ___ (check one)
Specific reasons why:
8. Introduction to electricity and magnetism : MIT 8.02 course notes
Worth reading ___ Waste of time ___ (check one)
Specific reasons why:
9. Electricity and magnetism / Edward M. Purcell
Worth reading ___ Waste of time ___ (check one)
Specific reasons why:
10. Div, grad, curl, and all that : an informal text on vector calculus / H.M. Schey
Worth reading ___ Waste of time ___ (check one)
Specific reasons why:
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So, there it is. That is what I want to do. Basically, I am a student and I want to learn exactly what I need to know to be able to build an automobile from scratch. This does not mean that I will do it right now. I may build after a couple of years. I still need to work to survive currently but I want to learn everything that I need to learn right now. I don't want to go to college and study there because what I want to learn is far too varied for a college atmosphere. That doesn't mean I want to do everything myself. I will try consult with and work with local college professors to help me understand difficult concepts/ideas but primarily everything will be online, I forsee. And that is why I wanted to make sure that someone who knows their stuff definitely advises me because otherwise I may end up getting confused. I look forward to working with everyone here, starting off with you bass! [8D]
This isn't the first forum that I have stated my plans in. I have requested advice on cnc machining forums, mining forums, another separate geology forum, blacksmithing forums as well. But Geology (locating and extracting minerals) is the very foundation on which I must build my knowledge base and progress so that's why I'm here.
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Youre going to need a lot more than MIT's geology program. I am in a comparable program and am light years away from being able to build a Ferrari from scratch. In fact, I couldnt even build a Pinto from scratch.
I wish you lots of luck. If you can pull it off, you deserve a PhD.
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@bass - I can understand that as a professional geologist, you’re probably busy most of the time. So, I don’t want to take up too much of your time. But what I’m requesting from you is simply guidance. If you (bass) woke up in the middle of nowhere stranded alone nude, because of your specific skillset you would be able to locate and extract minerals to further use for whatever purpose you see fit. That is the knowledge I want to acquire. So, I’d like to know:
1. How do I go about learning this essential information? Is my current approach ok? What texts/books should I be reading if any?
I know that the process for each mineral is a bit different and for certain minerals, the processes are very different. Therefore, after hearing your general thoughts about my plans as a whole, I would like to start off with A. iron and then we can move on to B. Bronze and Copper and so on.
But I will do all the work/required reading myself. I just need guidance so I’m not wasting any time at all. I understand that this may take a while, so that’s fine. I'm looking for specific advice akin to, "Ok, read this and this. Those books will teach you __ which is important for __ and __. If you have any question post them here." I just want to start learning and asking specific content-related questions soon as I can so I can see some progress however slight.
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but a metallurgist could give you more complete guidance in that area. Putting together the necessary alloys is complicated and may require some unusual minerals and processes.
And are there any metallurgists here on the forum that would be able to do this or would I need to seek out a metallurgy focused forum?
Ok, this is my situation.
Me: Student
current goal: build 1957 Ferrari 250 Testa Rossa completely from scratch
knowledge areas required: geology (find materials), mining (extract materials), blacksmithing/metal working (manipulate materials), ?
knowledge already possessed: none
plan of action: study textbooks associated with speicifc university degree required courses that are needed in the “knowledge areas required” section above.
What I’m doing now: studying MIT’s Geology program = reading all the textbooks associated with the requirements for their Bsc Geology degree
http://web.mit.edu/catalog/degre.scien.ch12.html
http://eapsweb.mit.edu/education/undergrad/classes/classes.html
Current textbook:
- Sears and Zemansky's University physics : with modern physics. San Francisco : Pearson Addison Wesley, c2008 0321501217
Completed textbooks:
None
Knowledge gained:
none so far
Current goal: Go through all of the textbooks for the MIT Bsc Geology degree. Attain the required knowledge that will enable me to go out and find the materials that I need to build the abovementioned automobile from scratch. Namely, iron, copper, steel, aluminum, and others
Goals completed:
none
Don't forget Titanium and Chrome Moly, Smithy
Good luck in the build
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As frethack mentioned- this is huge undertaking. I'm not sure you'll be able to pull it off with simple tools- some of the alloys are too complicated.
Ok. Let's start with iron (and assume you know nothing). First you need a basic chemical understanding of iron (valences, bonding, reactions, etc). Perhaps one of the chemists on this forum can better advise you as to the proper textbooks for chemical properties of iron.
In searching for iron deposits, the oxidation state of iron is critical to understanding favorable geologic environments. Iron is one of the most abundant elements in the crust. Unfortunately, most iron in the crust is bound up in minerals and is unusable as a source. Concentrated iron deposits are usually bonded with oxygen (magnetite, hematite)- though iron sulfide (pyrite, pyrrhotite, marcasite, chalcopyrite, arsenopyrite) and iron hydroxide deposits have also been used.
Probably the easiest attainable iron is hematite (and easiest to work with). Massive banded iron formations in very old rocks (Precambrian) are by far the largest sources for iron works in the world today.
What sort of geologic knowledge do you need to find iron ore?
1. An understanding of basic geologic processes
2. An understanding of geologic environments.
3. An understanding of geochemical concepts, especially solubility in various Eh and pH conditions.
4. Knowledge of the geologic time scale.
5. Once you have mastered these concepts, you can move on to historical geology and the concepts of geologic paleo-environments.
6. Economic geology- ore formation and prospecting methods.
Books- start with a basic geology textbook (use whatever is available at MIT). There are numerous texts on historical geology and geochemistry. Likewise, there are numerous economic geology texts. One series you might find very useful is "Ore Deposits in the United States 1933-1967" Somewhat dated, but most of the concepts are still valid for your purposes. Describes various kinds of ore deposits- which will also be useful as you continue on to other elements. Most state geologic surveys have a minerals and mines branch that can supply you with more specific information on mining operations in each state.
Good luck. Keep us informed with your progress and please post any questions that come up.
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You also need to know how to make tools. When I am in the field I use a rock hammer. (Bass uses a 40 pound sledge - he and I looked a a possible gold mining property in Nevada a year and a half ago and when Bass pulled this huge wood-handled thing out of the bed of his Chevy Avalanche I thought he was going to play Paul Bunion or some similar American mythological person!)
But to get to the stage where the head was made it first took some ancient man a long time to learn how to nap flint to be able to cut down trees to make a fire to smelt iron. Then they had to learn how to make charcoal for the process of making steel. There is a lot of technology leading up to getting the tools to make a car and much of it doesn't have to do with geology as a science at all. It is the evolution of civilization.
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You also need to know how to make tools.
I’m going to send you a PM regarding that JimBob if you don’t mind. I want to keep this thread focused on Geology as much as possible. But you are correct and I have researched this a bit as well. But I want to make sure that I keep everything as action-focused as possible. So, that’s a great point you made, I think it would awesome if you were able to list the best book(s) to solve the particular area you mention like -> “You also need to know how to make tools. Get the book The art of FlintKnapping by D.C. Waldorf and it will teach you what you need to know in this area.” That would leave me nothing to say but “Thank you, I’ll head straight to the library, obtain this book, and read this text at the same time that I’m reading the Geology texts that bass has approved.” (read below) That way, I can steer clear of too much discussion and I can get to work. I am very guilty of getting carried away and talking too much when I need to be studying and learning making progress. I am actively working on eliminating that problem as you can see.
But yeah, correct me if I’m wrong but “The art of Flintknapping” is THE text that will teach me how to make tools like you are referring to. I’ll pm you a bit later about the other texts that I will need also. (namely, best book for survival skills like the skills you briefly mentioned in your post above: make a fire to smelt iron -> ___ (book), learn how to make charcoal -> ___ (book), etc. and so forth) But yeah, I will PM you and we can go in-depth about this for sure! :)
start with a basic geology textbook (use whatever is available at MIT)
Thank you for the advice in your post, bass. Ok, so I have searched for and found four texts that might cover all six areas that you posted. If they don’t or one or more of them don’t, then please recommend me another one in it’s place that will explain what you posted. So, here are the texts including the one that you recommended:
Understanding Earth by John Grotzinger
Geochemistry : pathways and processes
Historical Geology: Evolution of Earth and Life Through Time
Ore Deposits in the United States 1933-1967
Ok, so that is what I have so far. Please correct me if I am wrong but Understanding Earth will explain precisely:
1. An understanding of basic geologic processes.
2. An understanding of geologic environments.
Geochemistry : pathways and processes will take care of:
3. An understanding of geochemical concepts, especially solubility in various Eh and pH conditions.
4. Knowledge of the geologic time scale.
Historical Geology: Evolution of Earth and Life Through Time will take care of:
5. Once you have mastered these concepts, you can move on to historical geology and the concepts of geologic paleo-environments.
And finally, the book you recommended Ore Deposits in the United States 1933-1967 will take care of:
6. Economic geology- ore formation and prospecting methods.
So, is that all good to go, bass? You can just say yes or no to each book that I posted or write more if you have the time. I will get to reading as soon as you ok the above.
*Note - I’m having a pretty difficult time finding a copy of “Ore Deposits in the United States 1933-1967” online and in libraries... :(
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For economic geology- I would suggest
First: An Introduction to Economic Geology and Its Environmental Impact
Then: Ore Geology and Industrial Minerals, and Introduction
These are both very readable and will introduce the concepts of mineral exploration and mining.
Ore Deposits in the United States 1933-1967 is more a geologic description of various types of ore deposits- but you need a basic understanding of geologic concepts first.
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Understanding Earth by John Grotzinger
Geochemistry : pathways and processes
Historical Geology: Evolution of Earth and Life Through Time
Ore Deposits in the United States 1933-1967
Ok, so that is what I have so far. Please correct me if I am wrong but Understanding Earth will explain precisely:
1. An understanding of basic geologic processes.
2. An understanding of geologic environments.
Geochemistry : pathways and processes will take care of:
3. An understanding of geochemical concepts, especially solubility in various Eh and pH conditions.
4. Knowledge of the geologic time scale.
Historical Geology: Evolution of Earth and Life Through Time will take care of:
5. Once you have mastered these concepts, you can move on to historical geology and the concepts of geologic paleo-environments.
And finally, the book you recommended Ore Deposits in the United States 1933-1967 will take care of:
6. Economic geology- ore formation and prospecting methods.
@Bass - I just want to be sure of your instructions. So you are instructing me to delete the four books I posted above along with the outlined plan as well and instead just focus on the three texts in your most recent post and read them in the order that you have posted them. Correct? Thank you! I'll be updating this thread with questions/confusing areas that I have as I encounter them.
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Not at all. I was just suggesting good texts for gaining an understanding in econcomic geology portion. As I stated, Ore Deposits in the US is not so much a text as a description of mines in the US.
The books you cited will work well to help educate you in the areas of basic geology, historical geology and geochemistry. Most economic iron deposits are stratified within sedimentary sequences, so you still need to understand those concepts.
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And finally, the book you recommended Ore Deposits in the United States 1933-1967 will take care of:
6. Economic geology- ore formation and prospecting methods.
Ah, ok. So you were referring to the above portion and substituting "Ore Deposits in the United States 1933-1967" for the other two texts you mentioned. Thank you for the clarification. The updated course of action I'll be following is below:
Understanding Earth by John Grotzinger
Geochemistry : pathways and processes
Historical Geology: Evolution of Earth and Life Through Time
Ore Deposits in the United States 1933-1967
Ok, so that is what I have so far. Please correct me if I am wrong but Understanding Earth will explain precisely:
1. An understanding of basic geologic processes.
2. An understanding of geologic environments.
Geochemistry : pathways and processes will take care of:
3. An understanding of geochemical concepts, especially solubility in various Eh and pH conditions.
4. Knowledge of the geologic time scale.
Historical Geology: Evolution of Earth and Life Through Time will take care of:
5. Once you have mastered these concepts, you can move on to historical geology and the concepts of geologic paleo-environments.
And finally, the books you recommended An Introduction to Economic Geology and Its Environmental Impact and Ore Geology and Industrial Minerals, and Introduction will take care of:
6. Economic geology- ore formation and prospecting methods.
And I'll be studying these books in addition to a chemistry book that explains the chemistry of iron well. I posted in the Chemistry forum here but no-one still hasn't recommended a text for me yet. I think I may have to inquire on another Chemistry board...
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I assume you have seen the Toaster Project?
http://www.thomasthwaites.com/thomas/toaster/page2.htm
(although he is factually incorrect, the last deep iron mine in western Europe (Florence) most recently extracted some haematite in 2008 and subject to being dewatered, there is still plenty of ore to go at)
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I assume you have seen the Toaster Project?
http://www.thomasthwaites.com/thomas/toaster/page2.htm
I'm Thomas Thwaites and I'm trying to build a toaster, from scratch - beginning by mining the raw materials and ending with a product that Argos sells for only £3.99. A toaster. ...
The Toaster Project has been exhibited at the Royal College of Art SHOW TWO, London...
Now there's an modern art 'installation' I wouldn't mind seeing! [I'm not saying most modern art is rubbish BTW!] I do think it would be more thought provoking than many pieces though.
SF1, have you considered a project maybe more on this scale, than going straight off for a classic Ferrari?
If it's a simple homage to this historic machine, how about going this route:
Ferrari 312PB Scale Model with working engine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDZICiGmDxs)
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@Mazurka - Thank you very much for that link. I was not aware of the toaster project until you just mentioned it. Reading that website in detail made me feel so so much better about what I want to do. I could have sworn that I was all alone and that no-one else in the whole world had any interest or experience in what I seek to do.
@peppercorn - My mouth dropped to the floor after watching that video! I’m still halfway in disbelief. Great links by you all to show that I can in fact achieve what I’m striving to do here but it may take some time.
I have more to add but I’m currently trying to work my way through “Understanding Earth” so I won’t talk too much.
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I know that I said, regarding the textbooks listed and my plan of action, that I was going to read the textbooks through once and then ask any questions that I have but the idea of atoms is confusing me. Like I said, I’m reading “Understanding Earth” right now and I’m reading quite a lot about atoms, protons, etc. about the different minerals. I’m wondering what is this all about. Atoms can’t be seen so I’m wondering is this something worth looking into or just skipping it unless I encounter a problem directly related to knowing that information. I googled “can atoms be seen” and I found these links:
http://education.jlab.org/qa/history_03.html
http://education.jlab.org/qa/history_04.html
I like the caveman example they listed. That is basically my situation exactly! I’m a caveman when it comes to science/math. With that said, I think it best if I disregard the sections of the text regarding atoms, etc. since that requires a more advanced knowledge of science or whatever.
At the same time though, I also started wondering about the periodic table of elements after the article referenced it. For the minerals related to Geology that are listed there, I think they are simple for a caveman to understand. A person (geologist) found different minerals (elements) and gave them names arbitrarily based on their appearance/hardness. However, at this stage, other elements aren’t easily learned by a caveman. One such example would be krypton.
http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele036.html
The history of how it was founded mentions liquid air. After googling for it, understanding it is not for beginners (cavemen).
So, I’ll ignore these sections until I attain the necessary foundational knowledge required to be able to understand what the text is saying. Is that all correct?
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You will eventually need knowledge of chemistry to complete your task- so studying atoms and elements is not a waste of time. Thab being said, I agree with you- most of the principles of geology don't require a thorough knowledge of chemistry.
After all, not many cavemen owned ferraris.
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@bass - Well, like I said, I'm reading "Understanding Earth" right. I'm on page 61. I am reading this text exactly as a caveman. I am taking notes on things that I read that I feel I should know and I am also writing down questions that I will ask about here when I finish reading the entire text. I only asked about atoms right now because when I first read about them earlier in the text, I didn't know what they were talking about so I skipped it. However it keeps coming up, so that's why I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't skipping crucial information that would influence how well I understand the rest of the book. So, yeah, I'll skip it for now since I don't have the foundational knowledge to comprehend it.
But I did make a thread in the Chemistry forum here inquiring about your specific advise for me to obtain the best chemistry textbook that teaches the basics of iron. The chemists there don't seem to understand what I'm referring to. Maybe you could stop by there and provide some clarification. I'm going to continue reading "Understanding Earth" but if you feel that I should not continue reading the text until I have the proper textbook for attaining a good chemical understanding of iron then just let me know. Otherwise, I'll get back to my reading. :)
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=33502.0;topicseen
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Update: 8/22/10
1. An understanding of basic geologic processes
I assume you are referring to igneous, sedimentary, and metamorphisized rocks. More on this later.
4. Knowledge of the geologic time scale.
I really don’t understand how knowledge of the geologic time scale bears any direct relevance on locating iron ore. I am now on page 186 and I just finished reading the chapter regarding the geologic time scale. I didn’t see anything that would help me to find iron ore in the wild... Here’s a quote directly from the book:
Why is the geologic time scale important to geology?
The geologic time scale enables us to reconstruct the chronology of events that have shaped the planet. The time scale hasbeen instrumental in validating and studying plate tectonics and in estimating the rates of geologic processes too slow to be monitored directly, such as the opening of an ocean over millions to hundreds of millions of years. The development of the time scale revealed that Earth is much older than any-one had imagined and that it has undergone almost constant change throughout its history. The creation of the geologic time scale paralleled the development of paleontology and the theory of evolution, one of the most revolutionary and powerful ideas in science.
Seems like a lot of explaining of about current geologic themes but nothing useful to locating iron ore. That’s what this entire book seems like. Over 600 pages of defintions. Nothing that teaches readers how to find any specific minerals or anything like that... I find myself just flipping through the pages. But I’m going to stick with it until the last page nonetheless. *bored* [xx(]
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There are a good many courses before you hit mineralogy, and even then, its more about identifying minerals rather than their field associations and locations. It usually isnt until you get to your upper division classes that you are able to take specialized courses in mining geology and such, but the intro courses are very necessary to fully understanding the concepts in upper division work. Stick with it, but understand that it may take a few "boring" books before you get to anything that you may consider remotely useful.
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There are a good many courses before you hit mineralogy, and even then, its more about identifying minerals rather than their field associations and locations.
Yeah, I'm probably going to simply scan through those books about identifying materials. Well, at least the ones that don't pertain to my goals. In that respect, it's the same thing I do when I study plants. I only focus on the plants that I want to grow to eat. I don't worry about flowers or other plants that are of no use to me as far as I know.
Well, I finished reading "Understanding Earth" last night. *gags* What a waste of time! But anyway, moving on. Now I'm reading "Geochemistry: Pathways and Processes" which is next on my list. More later.
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Well, I'm done with the Geochemistry textbook. Way above my head and nothing useful. I'm just going to go ahead and start reading the two texts that you recommended, Bass, about economic geology. This prerequisite knowledge business is getting me nowhere fast. Plus it is very disheartening.
In the beginning of Geochemistry text, there was a part that caught my eye and I notated it in my notes. Here's the quote:
Students exposed to a new discipline should expect to spend some time assimilating its vocabulary and theoretical underpinnings. It isn’t long, though, before most students begin to ask, “How can I use it?” Geologists,commonly being rather practical people, reach this point perhaps earlier than most scientists.
I am feeling this very strongly right now. I need some specific instructions/teachings, all this theory is killing me slowly... On yet another note though, omg, I am so glad I'm doing this on my own. I would probably split my wrists if I had chosen a major based on something like this only to end up in the situation that I'm currently in.
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I agree with frethack- you need to assimilate the basics before you can fully understand more specialized fields. Probably 95%+ of commercial iron deposits are Precambrian- and were formed in unique geochemical conditions. Obviously, if you want to find iron ore, you need to know what Precambrian means and how to identify Precambrian rocks. There are also "oolitic" iron deposits (example Silurian rocks in New York).
So keep with it.
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Oolitic iron deposits? Are they actual hematite/magnetite spherules or stored in a carbonate like siderite?
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There is evidence both for replacement of carbonate and for primary deposition of hematite oolites.
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I agree with frethack- you need to assimilate the basics before you can fully understand more specialized fields. Probably 95%+ of commercial iron deposits are Precambrian- and were formed in unique geochemical conditions. Obviously, if you want to find iron ore, you need to know what Precambrian means and how to identify Precambrian rocks. There are also "oolitic" iron deposits (example Silurian rocks in New York).
So keep with it.
Guess it depends on where you are - nearly all of the iron ore that has been minned in the UK originated from Carboniferous ironstones, except for West Cumbria where heamatitie formed from metasomatic processes in the Permian...
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I was reading page 19 in the “An Introduction to Economic Geology and Its Environmental Impact” text and it listed the six principal steps for the exploration of an orebody. They are mineral exploration, feasibility study, mine development, mining, mineral processing, smelting, refining, marketing. Of these, the steps that concern me are exploration, mining, processing, smelting, refining.
Now, I was thinking about this and the response that bass wrote below:
Obviously, if you want to find iron ore, you need to know what Precambrian means and how to identify Precambrian rocks.
I also found some other sites during my continual search for specific info to assist me. One such site is listed below:
http://www.geologynet.com/index1.htm
I got to thinking about the exploration section, which is the section I am currently on, of course. I think that all I need to do is to be able to identify the rocks/minerals that I’m searching for. You mentioned being able to identify Precambrian rocks. I was thinking about my tried and true “stranded out in the middle of nowhere nude” example. If I woke up in the wild and I was in a location where 10-15 different minerals were readily available, how would I find them. They would be directly in front of me. I would just need the “prior life experience” to be able to discern what rocks were what. That’s it. At this stage, I’m not worried about advanced, modern methods of finding minerals/rocks. I’m more focused on primitive methods since that is what would save my butt if I was stranded out all alone. As always, please correct if I’m wrong. That’s one thought, I was thinking about.
If I’m correct above, then that means that my approach here is totally wrong. I think I have the solution. I know I’m an idiot at this but hear me out. I think that what I need to be doing is field work. Plain and simple. For every mineral that I want to explore for, I should be getting high res pics of it online and then, if possible, actually going out and actually physically touching the materials. e.g. going to a mineral/rock museum, etc. Basically this equates to becoming comfortable enough with the rocks/minerals so if I ever do find myself stranded in the wild alone and I need to go through the important steps I mentioned above -> exploration, mining, processing, smelting, refining ; then at least, I’ll have the exploration part out of the way. This is because in that situation, if I see any of the rocks/minerals that I have come to know very well then I will recognize it. That takes care of the exploration part. I’ll get to the next step, mining, later after I confirm my thoughts in this post.
I was also thinking about what Geezer PMed to me regarding considering the methods in how mankind developed various civilizations and that information guiding my path of study. What I propose above is what had to have happened. If we go back in time then there is no textbooks explaining this or that. It was trial and error and men wondering around exploring the landscape taking notes. I thought of another EXACT parallel analogy. Plants! The exact same thing I’m doing is like trying to learn about plants. I can either learn about plants from the viewpoint of if I’m in a all alone situation then I’ll know that a certain type plant will be found in a certain type of environment based off our information amassed thus far in our evolutionary progression. OR I can just learn to identify plants, just like I just learn to identify rocks/minerals. If I encounter one that I haven’t seen before, then do like it’s always been done. Trial and error.
So, for iron. My self-prescribed advice (feel free to critique this) is to find out what iron-containing rocks are located closest to where I am and notate it. Obtain pictures of the rocks isolated and also some pictures of what the rocks look like in their natural habitat. Next, try to actually obtain samples of the rocks in order to physically touch, feel them. (optional) That’s it. The above process would be what entails the exploration process. For now, if I want to find out where an rock/mineral is found then I look it up in a database type document/site. Memorizing this info would aid me in relocating the rock if my unfortunate example scenario occurred.
You all will have to please excuse my continuous questions and thinking out loud. I am speaking/treating this as if we were in a classroom environment and you all (the experts) are the professors. All my teachers in high school loved when we asked plenty of questions so it’s a habit. Probably not a problem here but I’m just saying.
http://www.geologynet.com/dbases.htm
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SF- I never discourage anyone from working in the field. You'll learn far more by going out and beating rocks than you ever will in textbooks.
And by all means, go look at/feel/taste rocks and mineral specimens (well, maybe don't taste all of the them). Remember, in the field, that weathered specimens will look different than fresh specimens- especially iron minerals- so don't be too disappointed if field rocks look different than pictures or museum specimens.
For your field search, I would suggest you start with your state geological survey. Most have listings of active and old mines and can be sorted by mineral produced. Make sure you get owner's permission before entering private land. Also, be careful around old mine workings- don't enter tunnels or shafts!
Pay attention not only to the "ore" minerals, but also to the rocks surrounding the minerals (host rocks) and to how the minerals occur. Are they in veins? Are they stratabound (that is are they contained in one or more strata)? Crystal size? Orientation of the vein/minerals (which is important when you mine)? Is it rich enough to process easily? If low-grade, it will require more work to process the minerals.
Don't forget rock shops- they can often be a treasure trove of local information. Buy a couple of low-priced samples of more common minerals- it will help you with future identity. If there is a geology or rock/gem club in your area- join!
Get out and look at rocks- and when you get tired of that- get out and look at some more rocks.