Naked Science Forum
General Science => General Science => Topic started by: smart on 26/02/2016 13:18:31
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I believe consciousness is a type of trans-Turing computation (hypercomputation) .
Evidences suggests that hypercomputation is a unique form of synaptic quantum tunnelling across neural networks in the brain.
Further research on quantum brain dynamics should clarify the role of consciousness in quantum tunnelling: Is synaptic exocytosis a quantum trigger mecanism or produced by quantum vibrations inside neurons?
Source: http://www.neuroquantology.com/index.php/journal/article/view/168/168
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Vibrational coherence transfer in brain microtubules
Coherent vibrations of microtubules may affect synaptic exocytosis.
Is conscious experience generated from quantum coherence via a non-local mecanism?
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The non-locality of consciousness or hypercomputation capacity of the brain (neural networks) is generated from synaptic quantum tunnelling.
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One variable that is overlooked in the brain is the impact of water. For example, the ionic signals from neuron firing will parallel changes in the hydrogen bonding of the water, with the hydrogen bonding signal transmission in water, orders of magnitude faster than signal transmission by diffusing ions.
http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_hydrogen_bonding.html (http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_hydrogen_bonding.html)
Hydrogen bonding carries information about solutes and surfaces over significant distances in liquid water. The effect is synergistic, directive and extensive. Thus, in the diagram opposite, strong hydrogen-bonding in molecule (1), caused by solutes or surfaces, will be transmitted to molecules 2 and 3, then to 5 and 6 and then as combined power to 8.
The effect is reinforced by additional polarization effects and the resonant intermolecular transfer of O-H vibrational energy, mediated by dipole-dipole interactions and the hydrogen bonds [142]. Reorientation of one molecule induces corresponding motions in the neighbors.
Thus solute molecules can 'sense' (for example, affect each other's solubility) each other at distances of several nanometers and surfaces may have effects extending to tens of nanometers. This long range correlation of molecular orientation has recently been confirmed using hyper-Rayleigh light scattering [152] and is a reason for the high dielectric constant of water and the consequential reduction in this dielectric constant as the temperature is raised and the number of hydrogen bonds is reduced [239].
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww1.lsbu.ac.uk%2Fwater%2Fimages%2Fhbond2.gif&hash=00a24ccf2188d5e5fa561ec057f64348)
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(water) molecules can 'sense' ... each other at distances of several nanometers and surfaces may have effects extending to tens of nanometers
Unfortunately, a nerve fiber (axon) is about 1000 nanometers in diameter. So hydrogen bonding alone is not enough to even propagate a signal across the width of a nerve fiber, let alone along its length.
What has a bigger impact than hydrogen bonding is the flow of ions into the cell. This causes the water molecules to cluster around the charged ions, and forces the polarized nature of the water molecules to align. This nerve impulse then propagates along the axon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerve_conduction_velocity#Normal_conduction_velocities) at speeds up to 180 m/s.
This is needed in order to speed signals throughout the body - the longest axons join your spine and toes, with a length of about 1 meter, or 1,000,000,000 nanometers - far beyond the range of hydrogen bonding alone.
One variable that is overlooked in the brain is the impact of water.
I don't think that biologists ignore water's role in the brain - after all, it is the solvent for the ions and neurotransmitters that actually pass the signals through the brain and central nervous system.
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"I believe consciousness is a type of trans-Turing computation (hypercomputation)"
I believe quite the contrary: the qualia (the aware percept itself, or that which is 'mental' in/about our mind) is of a completely different nature from a computation or from what we currently call 'physical' .
I find it hard to believe quantum mechanics is not directly involved in consciousness.
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What if the most fundamental aspect of reality is of such a nature that it has both a physical-like and a mental-like quality to it? I guess that is kind of panpsychism.
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I believe quite the contrary: the qualia (the aware percept itself, or that which is 'mental' in/about our mind) is of a completely different nature from a computation or from what we currently call 'physical' .
I find it hard to believe quantum mechanics is not directly involved in consciousness.
I disagree. I propose quantum brain dynamics are required for consciousness to exist as a "hypercomputation" - a coherent energy transfer inside neurons during synaptic exocytosis. This intrinsic form of quantum coherence is an evidence that the brain is not the source of consciousness, as synaptic quantum tunnelling require a non-local conscious experience to generate entropy.
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I propose quantum brain dynamics are required for consciousness to exist as a "hypercomputation" - a coherent energy transfer inside neurons during synaptic exocytosis.
And how mental qualities, i.e. the redness of red, the subjective character of the experience, that 'is-ness' character of an aware percept, arises from a computation or from a quantum energy transfer?
From a computation to a qualia (or a mental quality) I see a fundamental disconnect as if they are of a fundamental different essence.
Hyper or not hyper a computation can be understood in terms of mechanical steps using a recursion Then why aren't we machines without minds or zombies?
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As far as I know a quantum computation is simply a Turing computation on a massively parallel scale. There is nothing in principle different in a quantum computer from a classical one except that a quantum computer can be thought as containing very many classical computers working in parallel ; that is all, no extra miracle here; there is no magic in quantum computations.
Let's say one can solve an exponential problem in polynomial time with a quantum algorithm. How this generate an aware percept, the redness of red, the qualia?
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And how mental qualities, i.e. the redness of red, the subjective character of the experience, that 'is-ness' character of an aware percept, arises from a computation or from a quantum energy transfer?
I think quantum coherence induce synaptic exocytosis: Coherent quantum vibrations in microtubules
generates consciousness inside neurons.
From a computation to a qualia (or a mental quality) I see a fundamental disconnect as if they are of a fundamental different essence.
Hyper or not hyper a computation can be understood in terms of mechanical steps using a recursion Then why aren't we machines without minds or zombies?
Quantum brain dynamics propose that the brain is not the source of consciousness: The non-locality of conscious experience generates neuronal entropy.
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As far as I know a quantum computation is simply a Turing computation on a massively parallel scale. There is nothing in principle different in a quantum computer from a classical one except that a quantum computer can be thought as containing very many classical computers working in parallel ; that is all, no extra miracle here; there is no magic in quantum computations.
Let's say one can solve an exponential problem in polynomial time with a quantum algorithm. How this generate an aware percept, the redness of red, the qualia?
A hypercomputation or trans-Turing computation can process non-computable conscious experience at the quantum level: In essence, the brain hypercomputation capacity is beyond artificial intelligence! [;)]
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I think quantum coherence induce synaptic exocytosis: Coherent quantum vibrations in microtubules
generates consciousness inside neurons.
But the original question remain untouched: How something like a subjective experience arises from an objectively observable physical process. Changing the scale won't help; the hard question stubbornly persists.
You are using concepts like "quanum cohenece, quantum vibrations, etc'. These physical processes do not explain consciousness any more or any less than the classical processes of neuronal network working. Actually in the classical working of NN we can have an understanding of a circuitry and something mechanistic to work with, but in "statement like quantum coherence explain consciousness" there is NOTHING explanatory how that actually happen.
The non-locality of conscious experience generates neuronal entropy.
What do you mean by 'non-locality'.
Such statements at best hide the original problem with unclear wording.
For your information: Science used to work quite the opposite: it starts from crystal clear and unambiguous operational definition of the concepts.
A hypercomputation or trans-Turing computation can process non-computable conscious experience at the quantum level: In essence, the brain hypercomputation capacity is beyond artificial intelligence!
Nonsense. I can only ask myself: Is an understanding of statements like above even possible?
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To me a more honest answer, is that QM may be involved in the working of the brain in 2 ways: i) efficient energy transport and ii) quantum computations, none of which explain how mental side arises and none of which was proven experimentally. HOWEVER, currently there is no scientific understanding how QM (or any other physical process) could possible generate the inner experience (or mental-like qualities).
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But the original question remain untouched: How something like a subjective experience arises from an objectively observable physical process. Changing the scale won't help; the hard question stubbornly persists.
You are using concepts like "quanum cohenece, quantum vibrations, etc'. These physical processes do not explain consciousness any more or any less than the classical processes of neuronal network working. Actually in the classical working of NN we can have an understanding of a circuitry and something mechanistic to work with, but in "statement like quantum coherence explain consciousness" there is NOTHING explanatory how that actually happen.
To unify the mind-body dualism require an interpretration of quantum brain dynamics. The hard problem of consciousness is to describe what is conscious experience by itself. Finding the hypercomputation capacity of the brain may help to identify the molecular nature of consciousness.
What do you mean by 'non-locality'.
Such statements at best hide the original problem with unclear wording.
For your information: Science used to work quite the opposite: it starts from crystal clear and unambiguous operational definition of the concepts.
The non-locality of conscious experience is related to the remote influence of self-organized criticality of the brain.
A hypercomputation or trans-Turing computation can process non-computable conscious experience at the quantum level: In essence, the brain hypercomputation capacity is beyond artificial intelligence!
Nonsense. I can only ask myself: Is an understanding of statements like above even possible?
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To me a more honest answer, is that QM may be involved in the working of the brain in 2 ways: i) efficient energy transport and ii) quantum computations, none of which explain how mental side arises and none of which was proven experimentally. HOWEVER, currently there is no scientific understanding how QM (or any other physical process) could possible generate the inner experience (or mental-like qualities).
Thanks for your criticism. But i believe the Orch OR theory provide a valid framework of quantum brain dynamics. Further research in quantum mecanics should demonstrate the biological utilization of quantum non-locality (tunnelling) in brain structures.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1571064513001188
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I am well aware Penrose's speculations about the nature of consciousness, I thought about it for years, and my conclusion is that it fails completely with respect to the hard problem. For example they short-cut the hard problem and mystify the nature of space time by saying that somehow qualia and the moral values are encoded in space-time structure.
Orch OR is not a theory. It is a wild speculation which does NOTHING AT ALL with respect to the hard problem.
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For the sake of argument, let's assume quantum vibrations in micro-tubules can be correlated with specific subjective experiences. Under such assumption we will be able to say, for example that "this type of vibration pattern can be correlated with sweet sensation". So what? That does not explain why the subjective experience of sweet arises from a vibration any more or any less than the classical inter-neuronal connections does.
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One can use all the day he likes words like "non-locality" or "quantum-vibration" or "hypercomputations" , so what? Science and the rational thinking in general works only with well defined concepts not tricks to hide ignorance in fancy wording.
It is unclear to me if there is any reason whatsoever to use the word 'non-locality' in the context of a rational discussion about consciousness....
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It is unclear to me if there is any reason whatsoever to use the word 'non-locality' in the context of a rational discussion about consciousness....
I disagree. The entropic influence of quantum entanglement in mind-brain interaction is poorly understood. I propose consciousness arise from biological utilisation of quantum tunnelling in microtubules dynamics, influencing the non-locality of synaptic exocytosis. Hence, hypercomputation of conscious experience is evidence of the self-organized criticality of quantum brain dynamics over artificial intelligence.
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Certain bacteria (Geobacter) grow nanowires called pili, which conduct charge by a mechanism similar to what you are invoking as the mechanism of consciousness:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_nanowires
http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/v9/n12/abs/nnano.2014.236.html
http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/v6/n9/abs/nnano.2011.119.html
These pili are made of proteins in which are structured such that several aromatic amino acids (like phenylalanine and tyrosine) are perfectly aligned to allow for delocalized orbitals down the length of the wire (these are metallic proteins!)
Bacterial colonies use these nanowires to eat rocks--they harvest electrons from oxidizable minerals. But they also share these electrons with their neighbors. If one bacterium can access more "food" than the rest of the colony, it harvests the charge and passes it on to those with less available. Obviously there is some (at least rudimentary) communication between the bacteria within the colony (communication between bacteria has been well documented before, usually by exchange of signaling molecules...)
Would you say that such a colony is likely conscious?
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And on a different note, I tend to agree with flr. Adding "quantum" in front of a process appears to endow the topic with some amount of mysticism (I believe unduly...)
While QM may appear to address some of the issues of "free will" which are not easily explained by purely classical mechanics, I don't see how it explains "experience"
Disclaimer: I am not a dualist, and do believe that ultimately there will be physical explanations for the mind--but I don't think we're there yet. I think that the brain serves a central role for the mind, but I believe that much of the experiential aspects of consciousness are whole-body phenomena: the nervous system, endocrine system, physiological effects, feedback loops--all is part of the experience.
Ultimately, I think we have to accept that most organisms and many machines may well have some degree of "experience." They may not be aware of it in the same way we are, but I think any system that monitors itself must have some degree of "awareness." Unfortunately, I don't have much idea of how this could be measured. I'm not sure any human other than myself can prove to me that they are experientially aware... Can I even prove to myself that I am experientially aware?? [???]
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While QM may appear to address some of the issues of "free will" which are not easily explained by purely classical mechanics, I don't see how it explains "experience"
Conscious experience of reality is triggered by synaptic exocytosis: The biological non-locality of water and consciousness unify mind-brain interactions.
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Is neuronal hypercomputation a function of consciousness? The biological non-locality of water may require synaptic quantum tunnelling (exocytosis) to generate conscious experience and memory. The dynamics of brain hypercomputation mecanism should be examined.
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Atomic water channel controlling remarkable properties of a single brain microtubule: correlating single protein to its supramolecular assembly
PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23567633
Can hypercomputation potentiate microtubule-mediated conscious experience via synaptic exocytosis ?
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The coherent delocalization of biological water activity may control many-body states of neuronal hypercomputation.
http://phys.org/news/2015-03-real-space-many-body-proton-tunneling-nanocluster.html
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Water activity reflects the hydrating power of the water. The activity of pure water is defined as 1.0, since it has full capacity to hydrate materials. The activity will decrease from 1.0, as we dissolve things into the water. Each thing added becomes hydrated and therefore ties up water and lowers the water activity; below 1.0.
Neurons are somewhat unique in that these cells do not replicate.
Cells that do replicate, will see their scaffolding microtubule assemblies disrupted during each cell cycle. These assembles will reform anew within each daughter cell. Because neurons do not replicate, their scaffolding microtubule assemblies persist.
The question is why does the scaffolding disrupt during cells cycles? The reason has to do with the activity of the water. The microtubules assemblies reflect an equilibrium configuration, based on the water activity. During cell cycles, the mother cell undergoes a high level of synthesis, making enough protein for two daughter cells. This means there will be nearly double the protein, which lowers the activity of the water. This lower activity of the water, will no longer support microtubule assembles; equilibrium configurations. They disappear. Neurons, by not replicating, will never lower their water activity, this low, to where their microtubules will be disrupted. This allows these to be used for memory.
The average activity in the bulk neuron water is inducing microtubule configurations. These, in turn, have an impact on the local water. The analogy is dropping an ice cube in a glass of warm water. The warm water will melt the ice, while the ice will make the local water cooler than the bulk water. The bulk warm water will then make the local cooler water, warmer, which is then melting the ice.
Quantum tunneling, has to overcome energy barriers. One needs a source of energy to make this occur with any reliability. This is often attributed to something beyond the chemistry of the brain; quantum physics. However, the energy from the bulk neuron water, acting on the local water, induced by the microtubules, is one such source of constant energy.
To use the ice example, if we measured the temperature near the ice cube, it may be close to 0C. This, by itself, may not explain why the ice is melting so fast; high activation energy. The real explanation is connected to the heat in the bulk warm water bath, that is feeding the cool water near the ice cube. There is a constant flux of energy bulk energy to the ice cube; microtubules; for quantum tunneling. The control of the quantum tunneling is connected to the hydrogen bonding binary that is shared between water and the protein of the microtubules.
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Quantum tunnelling in synaptic activity
The biological interference of water activity may trigger neuronal hypercomputation; The coherent water delocalization (quantum coherence) in microtubules should influence synaptic exocytosis through electron tunnelling at gap junctions.
http://arxiv.org/vc/quant-ph/papers/0207/0207093v2.pdf
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The brain isn't a computer; it's a *feeling* machine. The likelihood of a neutron firing has more to do with the ambient chemo-electric field than a particular tunnelling event, i would suggest.
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The brain isn't a computer; it's a *feeling* machine. The likelihood of a neutron firing has more to do with the ambient chemo-electric field than a particular tunnelling event, i would suggest.
Here's a paper which describes "neural computing".
http://research.cs.queensu.ca/home/akl/cisc879/papers/PAPERS_FROM_MINDS_AND_MACHINES/VOLUME_13_NO_1/J7L1675237505M16.pdf
By connecting hypercomputation to quantum tunnelling, we can postulate how the brain may computes by using synaptic exocytosis.
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Thanks for the link & the original post with reference.
That first paper you posted hits the nail on the head, i think. The Penrose/Hameroff model goes to far wrt computation & macro entanglement, IMO.
It seems likely to me that the quantum events are related to the qualia aspect, not computation per se. The computation has to do with the phasic relationships across the whole brain, it seems to me. The wave dynamics across the whole brain are not just dependant on neural firing, the actual membrane structure might impose a variable impedance to migrating electroencephalic complex. Also, refractory periods are relevant as, it seems to me the falling out of an harmonically firing neutron is computational event (as i see it). Also, glial cells could play a role in modifying the impedance of the intercellular environment. The complexes Hameroff & Penrose identify on the microtubules could impinge the refractory period by impinging the transportation rate along the microtubules: relevant to the "computation" but, maybe not relevant to qualia.
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Biological systems are beyond classical hypercomputation:
https://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/bib/ss/nonstd/ijuc08.pdf
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Biological systems are beyond classical hypercomputation:
I appreciate the assertion; i suggest it's dogmatic. You have to show how biological systems 'compute' or 'hyper-compute' first, before they generate 'feelings' or iconic/semantic structures based on those 'feelings.'
Why assert the ground of biological hyper-computation before you've considered the possibility of meaningful communication by prophetic vision?
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Why assert the ground of biological hyper-computation before you've considered the possibility of meaningful communication by prophetic vision?
Because I believe biological hypercomputation is a real-world case of quantum tunnelling/entanglement
at the neuronal level. Synaptic exocytosis is an evidence of non-classical hypercomputation (quantum tunnelling) inside neurons. Such quantum events (synaptic activity) may trigger the generation of feelings, prophetic visions, etc.
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The universe is a non-computable matrix requiring a hypercomputation capacity to generate reality: Consciousness is the interface to the physical world. Synaptic hypercomputation is the process of quantum computation by synapses.