Naked Science Forum
General Science => General Science => Topic started by: Karsten on 07/12/2009 01:23:10
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My neighbor keeps pointing that it does work for animals to convince me that there is no placebo effect when it comes to homeopathic treatment and actual healing. Is there research that supports this?
One site (a skeptic one) points out that it is the owner who gets better, not the animals. And some vets who use it are convinced it works and discover evidence that it has worked.
Is that pretty much it?
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The animal may actually get better, but by itself: not as a result of the homeopathic treatment applied.
The only good thing that can be said about homeopathy is the "medicine" is so dilute it is unlikely to do any harm ...
Another example given by a critic of homeopathy states that a 12C solution is equivalent to a "pinch of salt in both the North and South Atlantic Oceans", which is approximately correct. One third of a drop of some original substance diluted into all the water on earth would produce a remedy with a concentration of about 13C. A popular homeopathic treatment for the flu is a 200C dilution of duck* liver, marketed under the name Oscillococcinum. As there are only about 1080 atoms in the entire observable universe, a dilution of one molecule in the observable universe would be about 40C. Oscillococcinum would thus require 10320 more universes to simply have one molecule in the final substance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy#Dilutions
*How appropriate that quack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackery) "medicine" is made from duck [:)]
(which probably doesn't contain a single molecule of duck).
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I believe that homeopathy has only been properly tested in one species of animal; and it doesn't work on us.
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I believe that homeopathy has only been properly tested in one species of animal; and it doesn't work on us.
Is homeopathy the one where a substance is diluted to the point of non existence?
Drinking water is good for all mammals, but assuming that the water is somehow charged with special powers is, well, hooey.
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I seem to remember The Queen uses it. I wonder if she tries it on the corgis?
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I don't know what's so mysterious about homeopathic treatments. They trigger the body to react to the initial condition or, like an adjuvant, they help coax the body to recognize the condition.
But homeopathic "treatments" are distilled water: pure H20: zero active ingredients, placebo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo).
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Regardless, science should understand the mechanism of how something works.
Or in this case, how it doesn't work.
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I don't know what's so mysterious about homeopathic treatments. They trigger the body to react to the initial condition or, like an adjuvant, they help coax the body to recognize the condition.
But homeopathic "treatments" are distilled water: pure H20: zero active ingredients, placebo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo).
Exactly. So why would it work for a horse/dog/cow? (If it indeed does and for which I am still trying to find research for).
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Regardless, science should understand the mechanism of how something works.
Or in this case, how it doesn't work.
I occasionally get symptoms for sore throat and used to get real bad sore throat if I let it just go. I use this homeopathic spray and it works very well without causing any discomfort. I have doubts that it is the "active" ingredient that does the helping, but maybe it is. I suspect it is the alcohol (or whatever the solution is) that helps. Not that it matters much. Asides from being expensive, it sure won't hurt.
It may work for some people, but I was/am of the opinion that it is in the head of the user (or the inactive ingredient).
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I would consider giving an unproven remedy to a suffering animal to be a form of cruelty.
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Using an unproven remedy might be legitimate research (how else would you prove it?). Using a "remedy" that hasn't actually got anything but water in it is definitely cruelty.
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A good point, well made.
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Using an unproven remedy might be legitimate research (how else would you prove it?). Using a "remedy" that hasn't actually got anything but water in it is definitely cruelty.
Well, some homeopathic solutions are prepared with alcohol. Maybe that helps the horses. And of course some claim that it is the "agitation" not what is in it (or not in it).
In any case, I am hearing from you folks that no research has been done to point out that homeopathy works on animals. Of course my neighbor may say that no research has been done to prove that it does not work. Can't help him then.
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I think your neighbour has missed the point; it falls to him to provide extraordinary evidence of his extraordinary claim. It is not the responsibillity of science to investigate every half wittted idea that anyone dreams up.
You should explain this to him in straightforward terms like; "So, you say overpriced water cures sick animals then? OK prove it. Come back when you have done the double blind trials"
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I think your neighbour has missed the point; it falls to him to provide extraordinary evidence of his extraordinary claim. It is not the responsibillity of science to investigate every half wittted idea that anyone dreams up.
You should explain this to him in straightforward terms like; "So, you say overpriced water cures sick animals then? OK prove it. Come back when you have done the double blind trials"
He says it works for him often, he read about it in magazines and such, and that our scientific ways to prove that something works are not so great and ignore whatever does not fit our methods. Does not matter much, I am fine with accepting that homeopathy works for some people but science cannot explain how or find conclusive evidence that it works. Not a battle I need to fight at the moment. There are a lot of over-priced items out there and homeopathy is not one that will cause damage (to me). Also, I need to be on good terms with my neighbor since I occasionally need to use his work shop. [;D]
In any case, I will print the wikipedia article and this web page (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=it_works_in_animals.php) for him. It will give him something to think about. Probably not change his view, but that is at that point more a "faith" issue.
I loved this part from the wikipedia site and was still laughing later in the evening when thinking about it: "Some homeopaths also use techniques that are regarded by other practitioners as controversial. These include paper remedies, where the substance and dilution are written on a piece of paper and either pinned to the patient's clothing, put in their pocket, or placed under a glass of water that is then given to the patient, as well as the use of radionics to prepare remedies. Such practices have been strongly criticized by classical homeopaths as unfounded, speculative, and verging upon magic and superstition." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
I think one could even go as far as e-mailing the patient the substance and dilution!
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My problem with the idea that "it works for him" is that it's not him that's sick- the animals are. Giving them water and thereby convincing yourself that they get better seems imoral to me.
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I guess that depends on whether there is a better alternative out there. For many conditions, of course there is, so I would have to agree that it would be highly dubious at best to withhold the proven treatment in favour of anything unproven, homeopathic or otherwise. If the alternative is nothing, then I can't see a problem with trying anything, as long as it is unlikely to cause more harm.
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Perhaps the real question should be, "Are any animals, other than humans, susceptible to placebos and quackery?"
I'm voting NO.
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If the alternative is nothing, then I can't see a problem with trying anything, as long as it is unlikely to cause more harm.
The problem is usually called fraud.
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I hear it can work. When treating dehydration...
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I hear it can work. When treating dehydration...
LOL! I must remember that one.
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Provided that they are not using solutions in alcohol or sugar pills.
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My problem with the idea that "it works for him" is that it's not him that's sick- the animals are. Giving them water and thereby convincing yourself that they get better seems imoral to me.
Agreed. I think he would object strongly to the treatment of animals with homeopathic methods if he believed it did not work. However, he "knows" it works (since it works for him and several other people he knows, some in my own circle of friends) and cannot be the placebo effect since animals are not susceptible to it. He is a complete animal lover. If I showed him though scientific articles that demonstrate that homeopathic treatments do not work, he would declare this to be a result of scientific narrow-mindedness. He is a difficult case this way.
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My problem with the idea that "it works for him" is that it's not him that's sick- the animals are. Giving them water and thereby convincing yourself that they get better seems imoral to me.
Agreed. I think he would object strongly to the treatment of animals with homeopathic methods if he believed it did not work. However, he "knows" it works (since it works for him and several other people he knows, some in my own circle of friends) and cannot be the placebo effect since animals are not susceptible to it. He is a complete animal lover. If I showed him though scientific articles that demonstrate that homeopathic treatments do not work, he would declare this to be a result of scientific narrow-mindedness. He is a difficult case this way.
According to the principals of homeopathics, place a steak in a gallon of water, draw out a dram of that water, put a drop of it in another vial and shake it, draw out a drop and put it in a fresh vial of water. Repeat this a dozen times or so.
The final vial should be as nutritious as the steak. Let him drink that diluted steak water for a couple of days and let him see how hungry he becomes.
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My problem with the idea that "it works for him" is that it's not him that's sick- the animals are. Giving them water and thereby convincing yourself that they get better seems imoral to me.
Agreed. I think he would object strongly to the treatment of animals with homeopathic methods if he believed it did not work. However, he "knows" it works (since it works for him and several other people he knows, some in my own circle of friends) and cannot be the placebo effect since animals are not susceptible to it. He is a complete animal lover. If I showed him though scientific articles that demonstrate that homeopathic treatments do not work, he would declare this to be a result of scientific narrow-mindedness. He is a difficult case this way.
According to the principals of homeopathics, place a steak in a gallon of water, draw out a dram of that water, put a drop of it in another vial and shake it, draw out a drop and put it in a fresh vial of water. Repeat this a dozen times or so.
The final vial should be as nutritious as the steak. Let him drink that diluted steak water for a couple of days and let him see how hungry he becomes.
Hey! I think I'll try that with Johnnie Walker. It's going to save me a fortune.
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My problem with the idea that "it works for him" is that it's not him that's sick- the animals are. Giving them water and thereby convincing yourself that they get better seems imoral to me.
Agreed. I think he would object strongly to the treatment of animals with homeopathic methods if he believed it did not work. However, he "knows" it works (since it works for him and several other people he knows, some in my own circle of friends) and cannot be the placebo effect since animals are not susceptible to it. He is a complete animal lover. If I showed him though scientific articles that demonstrate that homeopathic treatments do not work, he would declare this to be a result of scientific narrow-mindedness. He is a difficult case this way.
According to the principals of homeopathics, place a steak in a gallon of water, draw out a dram of that water, put a drop of it in another vial and shake it, draw out a drop and put it in a fresh vial of water. Repeat this a dozen times or so.
The final vial should be as nutritious as the steak. Let him drink that diluted steak water for a couple of days and let him see how hungry he becomes.
Hey! I think I'll try that with Johnnie Walker. It's going to save me a fortune.
It might even have the desired effect if you dilute Johnnie Walker with alcohol instead of water. Not sure about the money saving with this method though.
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My problem with the idea that "it works for him" is that it's not him that's sick- the animals are. Giving them water and thereby convincing yourself that they get better seems imoral to me.
Agreed. I think he would object strongly to the treatment of animals with homeopathic methods if he believed it did not work. However, he "knows" it works (since it works for him and several other people he knows, some in my own circle of friends) and cannot be the placebo effect since animals are not susceptible to it. He is a complete animal lover. If I showed him though scientific articles that demonstrate that homeopathic treatments do not work, he would declare this to be a result of scientific narrow-mindedness. He is a difficult case this way.
Animals are not susceptible to the placebo effect, but nobody is asking the animals how they feel.
On the other hand, the farmer is susceptible and he is the one who gets asked. If he thinks this mumbo jumbo will do them good then he will "see" imporvements in their condition whether those imporvements exist or not.
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I have used homeopathic preparations for most of my life, with about the same succes as conventional medicines. ( some worked some did not, could be the placebo effect or I got better anyway)I have also used them on my pets, at least they did not kill them as was yhe case with two dogs treated by conventional vets.
On two occasions I obtained significant success using homeopathic prepartions on my crops as a form of pest control. On the first occasion which was recorded and observed, I used a few drops of a preparation in the irrigation water of a crop of organic tomatoes, which were heavily infested with thrip. Within 3 days the thrip had left the crop alone.
On the second occasion I used another preparation in the sane manner on a crop of capsicums that I was growing during a mouse plague. The end result was that I picked & sold ten tonnes of capsicums,and my neighbours lost their complete crop. How do you explain that. alanan
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On the second occasion I used another preparation in the sane manner on a crop of capsicums that I was growing during a mouse plague. The end result was that I picked & sold ten tonnes of capsicums,and my neighbours lost their complete crop. How do you explain that.
Possibly mice prefer the taste of your neighbours crop to yours.
Mammals like squirrels (rats, mice) reject capsicum concentrations as low as 1-10 ppm.
http://icwdm.org/Prevention/birdfeeders.asp
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Mice love capsicums. On a previous occasion I lost over 3,000 boxes of capsicums to mice within a week. The homeopathic preparation I am told made the capsicums unattractive to the mice. On another occasion when my neighpours crops were being devastated by thrip, which were almost non existant on my crops, my neighbour said to me. " Have you got a sign post on your place telling the thrip to turn back". The fact is that the preparation that I used was probably the equivalent of putting one drop of solution in an Olympic swimming pool. To make things more unbelievable the preparations were made with a radionic machine, which somehow transfers the properties of one product to another without any actual contact. I have yet found anyone who can explain a radionics machine.
alanan
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On the second occasion I used another preparation in the sane manner.
How do you explain that.
alanan
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Pointing out a typo?
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For those who dare to ask;
(BTW - put down your coffee mug BEFORE you click on this link, unless you want to spray coffee all over your computer)
http://www.radionicsmagic.com/
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Hmmm, ... lust spells!
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I notice the same site also promotes astral travel, and witchcraft lessons.I am glad I put my coffee cup down.
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Nice one. I'm still giggling.
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[???] [???] I once went to a demonstration of a radionics machine. The woman who made the presentation came from the other side of Australia, and had no local knowledge. I gave her an arial photograph of my property, which was infested with a weed,( oxalis pes capri, commonly known as soursob.) This could not have been identified from the photograph.
The woman put the photo on one side of the machine, and then proceeded to use a series of cards with patterns on them which looked like hieroglyphs. She cross referenced a card to another file, which indicated oxalis species.
There are two explanations for this.
One she was a trickster, and was doing it for personal gain. She made absolutely no money from the presentation. Thyere was about a dozen people at the presentation, and we split her costs which amounted to $15 each for the whole day.
Two. The bloody thing worked, and as the same machine was used to prepare some homeopathic preparations which i used on my farm at no cost. I am left with the following conclusion. People who say that radionics machines & homeopathy are all scams don't know what they are talking about. I still cannot find anyone who can give me a rational explanation.
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[???] [???] I once went to a demonstration of a radionics machine. The woman who made the presentation came from the other side of Australia, and had no local knowledge. I gave her an arial photograph of my property, which was infested with a weed,( oxalis pes capri, commonly known as soursob.) This could not have been identified from the photograph.
The woman put the photo on one side of the machine, and then proceeded to use a series of cards with patterns on them which looked like hieroglyphs. She cross referenced a card to another file, which indicated oxalis species.
There are two explanations for this.
One she was a trickster, and was doing it for personal gain. She made absolutely no money from the presentation. Thyere was about a dozen people at the presentation, and we split her costs which amounted to $15 each for the whole day.
Two. The bloody thing worked, and as the same machine was used to prepare some homeopathic preparations which i used on my farm at no cost. I am left with the following conclusion. People who say that radionics machines & homeopathy are all scams don't know what they are talking about. I still cannot find anyone who can give me a rational explanation.
Maybe there is no rational explanation. Yet. However, it seems to be exceedingly rare to find something amazing among the piles and piles of nonsense and garbage.
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Pointing out a typo?
Or a Freudian slip; I'm not sure which.
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[:D] [>:(] [:o]definitely a typo, or maybe!!