Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Chemistry => Topic started by: ilox on 03/10/2005 04:26:30
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Anyone have any good ways of making powdered aluminum, i have so much solid al at home it would be interesting to try and powder it, very fine, i hear you can use it for pyrotechnics?
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i am just guessing but cant you electrolisyse an aluminium salt?
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You just need to grind it up. Such grinders do exist, but it depends on what form your aluminium is in - ingots, or thin pieces ?
Chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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Tho' I think aluminium is a (suspected?) trigger for Alzheimers, so you might want to handle powdered Al with respect...
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Did you know that within the past few years there was an extended period in which there were no powdered aluminium plants left anywhere in the world? The reason being they had all blown themselves up. This is a fact. Thus there is one very good reason why making powdered aluminium is a bad idea, and that's all you need.
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if you wish to blow your self up heres the best way take some aluminium and use a grinder such as is used in sharpening or smoothing metal in workshops (15 quid out of b&q) an simply put the metal on it ginders for home tend to rotate towards you and down so after a feww seconds a pile of dust will accumulate take this and mix it with iron oxide(rust ) and set fire too it from a distance i find a peice of fuse wire properly connected makes quite an effective detonator watch out this stuff burns hot
Giggidy Giggidy Goo
The philosopher Q man
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Also if you see in the US ARMY hand book you can stuff steel cotton(brillo pad) in a pipe and burn it,this gimmic works well but you need a steady flow of air to get it going(NOTE IN THE US ARMY HANDBOOK YOU MUST USE CAUTION WHEN HANDLING THIS THING YOU CAN NEVER BE TOO CAUTIOUS)
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just please don't blow your self up
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i wouldnt waste my time trying to grind it down its too much effort. if you want aluminium for flash powder then here are two decent suppliers. the aluminium from these suppliers is coated and atomised so it will be no good for potassium Nitrate based flash powders. i have found its good with potassium permanganate but thats a dangerous flash as its not very stable. as well as that its not bad for star compositions as well as comets and rocket tails.
enjoy
http://www.resin-supplies.co.uk/
http://www.cfsnet.co.uk/acatalog/
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Umm what I said was for Iron Oxide not for powdered aluminum
YAYYYYYYY!
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkeyandgeorge
if you wish to blow your self up heres the best way take some aluminium and use a grinder such as is used in sharpening or smoothing metal in workshops (15 quid out of b&q) an simply put the metal on it ginders for home tend to rotate towards you and down so after a feww seconds a pile of dust will accumulate take this and mix it with iron oxide(rust ) and set fire too it from a distance i find a peice of fuse wire properly connected makes quite an effective detonator watch out this stuff burns hot
Giggidy Giggidy Goo
The philosopher Q man
That is called Thermite and to do that you need (black) Iron Oxide not the rust kind you may get it by burning steel cotton in a pipe
YAYYYYYYY!
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thermite basically applies to any metal powder being oxidised by a high temperature oxidising agent. and so thermite could be Fe2O3,FeO,Cu,CaSO4 based (or any other high temperature oxidising agent)
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yeah dudes ive used rust of mild steel sheet just scraped it of and it does work
Giggidy Giggidy Goo
The philosopher Q man
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yes mild steel produces rust no different to that you get from a chemical supplier. In fact id like to have less pure rust as my thermit burns fast and so doesnt really have enough time to produce a very high temperature. Still there are better things than thermit out there
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New use for powdered aluminum: hydrogen production.
A scientist at one of the BC universities in Canada discovered powdered aluminum makes a great storage of electricity, reasoning that it takes a lot of electrons to make aluminum, then it should release a lot of electrons as it reverts to a more stable/natural state.
He mixed water with salt, then added aluminum powder and found it produces Al(OH)3 + H2, which can be used in hydrogen fuel cells.
Better to try this than to try exploding your stockpile IMO.
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Here's a link to the report on using scrap Aluminum to generate electricity.
http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/04-05/nov13.html
Also available in .mp3
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buy the powdered, i prefare flake. but get it on your skin and you will know about it! id recomend you dont however. grinding down AL could cause it to ignite or oxidize neither of which you want. also powdered al comes sizes called Meshes e.g 100 mesh is fine almost like flour 200 is fantasticly fine, if using it for thermite you will want the same mesh of rust as it will mix better and so burn faster and generally be less wasteful. now ass for that crap about only black rust working, well thats just plain wrong all 3 types of iron rust work, and it can reach 3000 degrees reaction time doesnt have much relivance to its temperature as this is generated as the burning AL ripps oxygen from the iron and there you have it [:D]
Is that the mouthwash in your eyes?
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the best way to powderize aluminum is by using a plantary ball mill
grinding doesnt work very well because most grinding stones will load up and ruin the stone.their is also a very high degree of contamination involved in grinding.and that says nothing about the dangers
good luck
bmax,
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update- ive just finished fitting a kitchen where aluminum edging neede to be ground and shaped i used a cheap grinder and collected quite alot of powder tomorrow me and a mate with a corrugated iron shed are haveing a thermite party with the grand finally taken from the other thermite forum gonna burn through a pandas engine block
Giggidy Giggidy Goo
The philosopher Q man
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good luck you will need over 1kg
Is that the mouthwash in your eyes?
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I think it might be possible to precipitate aluminum in a powder form in a double replacement reaction. Pour sulphuric or hydrochloric acid on your aluminum chunk and collect the aluminum salt produced (you can also light the hydrogen gas on fire and make a large fireball if you want--loads of fun!![:D]). Next take the aqueous aluminum salt and add a more reactive metal than aluminum (try magnesium, it's not hard to come by). The aluminum metal should precipitate and another metal salt will be be formed (aqueous of course). Filter out the aluminum metal (which should be in the form of a powder[?]) and dry. Do not heat the powder to aid in evaporation as the powder will ignite!!! That is a bad idea.
I want to try this with iron, which you could collect with a magnet and use for a magnetorheological fluid (see the liquid magnet thread) which I have an interest in.
Don't blow yourself up, that's never good.
"His mind is the ultimate weapon!"-MacGyver television series
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I tryed these methods and I do believe the best way to get powdered aluminum is to take a piece of track that lookes like this >[< put it flat side down on a cuttoff wheel at a slite angle so the pieces fall off into a dish. if you want true powdered aluminum i would just stick to buying it.
P.S. aluminum on its own is flamible but not in the particle sizes created above pluss if you stay away from oxidisers you cant kill yourself when grinding
Nick
If its not illegal... It's legal!
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If you've read my thread on making your own acids, you'd know that I would much rather make my own chemicals than spend the money to do so. Nick's method is good but it doesn't produce small enough particles. There has to be some way to make your own really fine metal powders...
"His mind is the ultimate weapon!"-MacGyver television series
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Andrew
I think it might be possible to precipitate aluminum in a powder form in a double replacement reaction. Pour sulphuric or hydrochloric acid on your aluminum chunk and collect the aluminum salt produced (you can also light the hydrogen gas on fire and make a large fireball if you want--loads of fun!![:D]). Next take the aqueous aluminum salt and add a more reactive metal than aluminum (try magnesium, it's not hard to come by). The aluminum metal should precipitate and another metal salt will be be formed (aqueous of course). Filter out the aluminum metal (which should be in the form of a powder[?]) and dry. Do not heat the powder to aid in evaporation as the powder will ignite!!! That is a bad idea.
Are you sure it would work? I doubt a lot. When the first atoms of Al are produced, they will immediately react with water. The reason Al doesn't normally react with water is that the particles are covered with Al oxide; but this happens when you already have Al particles. Infact, "naked" Al particles react immediately with oxigen or water in the air. Very fine Al particles without the protective layer of oxide are piroforic (=they ignites on contact with air), as a lot of other very fine powdered metals (Fe, Mg, Ni, ...)
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quote:
Originally posted by johndiver
New use for powdered aluminum: hydrogen production.
A scientist at one of the BC universities in Canada discovered powdered aluminum makes a great storage of electricity, reasoning that it takes a lot of electrons to make aluminum, then it should release a lot of electrons as it reverts to a more stable/natural state.
He mixed water with salt, then added aluminum powder and found it produces Al(OH)3 + H2, which can be used in hydrogen fuel cells.
Better to try this than to try exploding your stockpile IMO.
To make hydrogen from Al, it's not necessary to have Al powder: you can simply dissolve a piece of Al in a basic solution, for example an acqueous solution of NaOH or Na2CO3 (at the beginning the reaction goes slowly, but, after the tick layer of aluminum oxide has been removed, it goes fast, so be careful!). You can even use NaHCO3 (baking soda) heating the solution.
By the way, putting a silver object inside an aluminum pan with a baking soda solution and heating it for ~ 15 minutes, is a simple method to clear that silver object.
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quote:
Originally posted by johndiver
New use for powdered aluminum: hydrogen production.
A scientist at one of the BC universities in Canada discovered powdered aluminum makes a great storage of electricity, reasoning that it takes a lot of electrons to make aluminum, then it should release a lot of electrons as it reverts to a more stable/natural state.
He mixed water with salt, then added aluminum powder and found it produces Al(OH)3 + H2, which can be used in hydrogen fuel cells.
Better to try this than to try exploding your stockpile IMO.
To make hydrogen from Al, it's not necessary to have Al powder: you can simply dissolve a piece of Al in a basic solution, for example an acqueous solution of NaOH or Na2CO3 (at the beginning the reaction goes slowly, but, after the tick layer of aluminum oxide has been removed, it goes fast, so be careful!). You can even use NaHCO3 (baking soda) heating the solution.
By the way, putting a silver object inside an aluminum pan with a baking soda solution and heating it for ~ 15 minutes, is a simple method to clear that silver object.
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quote:
Originally posted by johndiver
New use for powdered aluminum: hydrogen production.
A scientist at one of the BC universities in Canada discovered powdered aluminum makes a great storage of electricity, reasoning that it takes a lot of electrons to make aluminum, then it should release a lot of electrons as it reverts to a more stable/natural state.
He mixed water with salt, then added aluminum powder and found it produces Al(OH)3 + H2, which can be used in hydrogen fuel cells.
Better to try this than to try exploding your stockpile IMO.
To make hydrogen from Al, it's not necessary to have Al powder: you can simply dissolve a piece of Al in a basic solution, for example an acqueous solution of NaOH or Na2CO3 (at the beginning the reaction goes slowly, but, after the tick layer of aluminum oxide has been removed, it goes fast, so be careful!). You can even use NaHCO3 (baking soda) heating the solution.
By the way, putting a silver object inside an aluminum pan with a baking soda solution and heating it for ~ 15 minutes, is a simple method to clear that silver object.
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkeyandgeorge
update- ive just finished fitting a kitchen where aluminum edging neede to be ground and shaped i used a cheap grinder and collected quite alot of powder tomorrow me and a mate with a corrugated iron shed are haveing a thermite party with the grand finally taken from the other thermite forum gonna burn through a pandas engine block
Giggidy Giggidy Goo
The philosopher Q man
love to see that, setting thermite off in a shed, i mean for gods sake do u kno how many sparks thermite gives off? not to mention the amount of oxegen it consumes burning. my suggestion is rethink this and DONT DO IT IN A GOD DAMN SHED!!!
"You have to stay in shape. My grandmother, she started walking five miles a day when she was 60. She's 97 today and we don't know where the hell she is."
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So I guess that because of the fact that Al oxidizes so rapidly in water or the water in the air that it is pretty much impossible to make your own finely ground Al powder that would work in a thermite reaction, because even if you could collect it, it would be too oxidized or contaminated. Has anyone made thermite with home made aluminum powder? I have been trying with no success at all using black iron oxide powder from a ceramics supply store and aluminum particulate collected off from a grinding disk, attempting to ignite it with KMnO4 and glycerine. [:P] [?]
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I have tried to make it with home made aluminum. And it is very hard to light and doesnt sustain a very stable reaction, but it can be done. The problem i run into is that I cant make my powder fine enough. I used a brake lathe with a fan clutch off a chevy motor and got a mix of shaving and what looked like powder but was still larger particles than that. It lights with magnesium if I add an outside oxygen supply to get the magnesium burning good and hot, but even then it spits and sputters and never stays going. I believe it can be done if you are capable of getting your powder fine enough.
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You know these "silver" artists materials (inks, pencils, paints, etc.)? They, I assume, are based on powdered aluminum. So the stuff must be commercially produced routinely.
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Aluminum foil is very pure for most uses (99.1% purity). However, I really think sandpaper aluminum foil is not your best choice. On the one hand, aluminum foil is quite expensive, and I want to know if you can get a bunch of powder at a much cheaper price than buying an equivalent aluminum foil. In addition, you may even start sandpaper? If you rub an aluminum crumpled ball on a rough surface, you will not get the powder and get a torn ball and a gray mark on the rough surface. But you can try and tell me if it is valid. But I think you might have a better chance with aluminum cans. They are cheaper and thicker, so they are not easy to tear. Although I still doubt that you can get a reasonable amount of aluminum powder from it. If everything fails, you can always try to install a pile of aluminum foil in the blender.