Naked Science Forum
General Science => General Science => Topic started by: Andrew K Fletcher on 22/09/2007 10:46:13
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Looking for minimum of 10 preferably 20 healthy people to sleep 5 degree head down tilt for two nights 5 degree head up tilt for two nights and horizontal for two nights, collecting urine output and measuring the specific gravity / density of the collected urine using a hydrometer which can be obtained from any wine / beer making outlet or a second hand store / car boot sale for next to nothing.
Apparatus:
Method to tilt bed to five degrees, can be blocks of wood, bricks, frame or wooden wedge under mattress.
Tall slender glass or vase deep enough to allow a hydrometer to float freely in the contents and a larger sealed container to collect all of the urine produced sleeping and on waking in the morning.
Method
Normal night time and morning urine output over two days is to be monitored using the hydrometer recording the density when the urine has been collected and cooled to normal room temperature. Measurements should include each sample of urine and an average sample of urine taken by combining all of the samples of urine in a large container for each of the sleeping positions used in this experiment labelling each container as HUT (5 degree to the horizontal Head Up Tilt) H (Horizontal) HDT (5 degree to the horizontal Head Down Tilt)
Urine output is to be monitored in the early part of the week negating confusing results with unusual alcohol consumption at weekends. Diet should again be kept more or less on a steady path during this experiment also.
Urine samples should be photographed next to each other showing respective labels as (H) (HUT) (HDT) so that a like for like comparison can be made.
Odour of urine requires inspection also in order to again determine any differences between the sleeping models.
If correct we should see a clear gravity / renal / urine output interaction.
If this works out as anticipated and reflects pilot study results, we will jointly present a paper for publication.
Once proven, this simple experiment should change the outcome of patient care in hospitals all over the world and improve and save many lives.
I would also like to determine heart and respiration rate changes during this important experiment. This would require a third party to measure these changes when sleeping in the 3 angles described previously. I have measured these changes on my wife, 2 sons and 3 bull terriers sleeping at an angle of five degrees. The results were conclusive then and should be conclusive during this experiment. This tells us that circulation and respiration is also influenced by gravity.
Important NOTE: sleeping head down for a healthy person should not cause too much discomfort, it may cause weight loss and may also loosen stools as more fluids pass through the bowls. Anyone with a suspected heart condition or who has trouble breathing and a history of respiratory problems should not take part in the head down experiment.
An Introduction to renal failure and comments by myself. John has asked for evidence of gravity / urine dependence.
http://www.stevenson-reeves.co.uk/howto.htm How to Use a Hydrometer
Andrew K Fletcher
How does this sound to The Naked Scientist Community?[/size][/color]
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It's an interesting idea, if nothing else, if it works, it has to be one of the cheapest ways to make a difference. Has there been any other peer reviewed work on this?
It makes some sense that there will be an effect since there must be some mechanism for maintaining "normal" blood pressure and this affects urine production. IIRC the baroreceptors are in the head, so raising or lowering it would make some difference. I think that the effect of a foot or so that a sloping bed would make will be small compared to the effect of 6 feet or so that getting out of bed makes.
I'm also not sure that a typical home brewing type hydrometer is sensitive enough to measure the changes I'd expect. This site
http://www.wcc.hawaii.edu/facstaff/colmenares-l/paper.htm
sugests a range from 1.003 to 1.030. My home brew hydrometer covers the range 0.990 to 1.140 so the whole of the expected range for urine would be in the top fifth or so of the scale.
On the other hand if there is an effect big enough to measure this way then it's clearly significant.
(and I'm afraid that a history of respiratory problems, together with having to get up far too early in order to catch a bus means I'm not volunteering)
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September 26, 2003
Re: Dispelling the Night-Time Frequent Urination
Categories
Practical Health
Thanks for this Andrew, the specific gravity measurement of urine is a brilliant idea. This should also help with reducing kidney stones.
For those not familiar with Andrews work can write to him directly and/or see:
The Importance of Gravity to our Health and Wellbeing, and its Relation to Rest & Sleep
By the way I have had my mother-in-law, who has a congestive heart, on an inclined bed as per Andrew for nearly an year. She is no longer able to sleep on a flat bed as her condition worsens in that position!
Chris Gupta
See Dispelling the Night-Time Frequent Urination Myth for my earlier post on this issue.
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Hi Chris and friends
During my research on the angle in which we sleep, I have worked with many people suffering from a whole range of illnesses, including multiple sclerosis. During my work with MS, it became clear that when horizontal bed rest was avoided in favour of inclined bed rest, with the head end fifteen cm's or six inches higher at the head end, night time urine frequency was resolved in almost every single case, and there were many. Also oedema was resolved and this flies in the face of the current gravity/physiology relationship.
In order to determine what was happening with oedema and urine frequency, my wife and I conducted an experiment which involved measuring the specific gravity (density) of urine during different sleeping postures. We measured, horizontal bedrest, head down tilt bedrest and head up inclined bedrest. What we found was remarkable and can be tested by anyone using a simple hydrometer, the type used in home brew kits, to determine the density of urine.
Horizontal bedrest, produced a urine density lower than normal daily activity. Inclined bedrest produced urine density substantially higher that either horizontal bed rest head down tilt bedrest and normal daily activity and as we eat and drank the same during 3 weeks of measuring our urine the results were even more compelling.
But here is the crunch for this simple experiment. Head down tilt produced urine of near water density, no salts and mineral were being excreted in the urine! Which means that the salts end up in the bladder because of the effects of gravity on the salts and our posture in relation to the effects of gravity on said salts!
An additional effect of gravity on the body in the head up tilt position is the production of more heat during the night and this increases evaporation from the respiratory tract and skin, therefore reducing the amount of urine we produce and increasing the density of the urine produced.
I also disagree with the statement, increased night time frequency of urination does not indicate prostrate problems in males, it does how ever indicate that there might be something wrong with sleeping flat in both males and females.
DAD
My Father, who has been diagnosed with cancer of the liver and pancreas is baffling the Dr's and nurses with his remarkable recovery so far. He is due to go home in the next few days. During his stay he spent a week on a horizontal bed while I arm-wrestled his Dr and the nurses to incline his bed. During which he developed ulceration in the leg, which admittedly was from old ulcers, which had healed on the inclined bed. His legs were massive and despite being given diuretics continued to get larger and larger, then he remained on an inline and his legs are now normal size, though the skin on both legs has suffered. His ulcers are also healing up again and he looks great. He is walking around the ward 8 times a day and telling everyone his poems.
Hi Dr Dr Rai, has placed a stent inside the bile-duct which had been closed by the tumour and for this I am grateful, he is also talking my dad into trying alternative dietary changes to address the cancer, and has said that this would be his first consideration as and when he becomes ill himself. Dad had shut down his ability to take in information, so have not succeeded as yet in getting him to change his diet, but things are looking up for now and I will keep you posted on further developments.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank those on the list that responded to my plea for help and advice regarding Dad's situation. This list just gets better and better!
BTW, I have been invited to give a lecture at Russells Hall Hospital, where my Dad is at the moment and Dr Rai wants to attend it as he is very interested in my theory and work with the inclined bed. Who, knows, we may see all the beds in the ward tilted at some point. And maybe we will see less amputations in the hospital as a result of this application of common sense.
Andrew K Fletcher
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Hydrometers to measure the specific gravity of urine are unimaginatively called "urinometers",
they can cost as little as $10 ...
http://www.esportshealth.com/shop/product.asp?catalog_name=School+Health&category_name=Screening+and+Diagnostic+Devices&product_id=Urinometer
The presence of water and detergent in the container can affect results, so make sure it is clean and dry before adding urine.
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Call me fussy but I don't see any peer review. There's no direct effect of gravity on salts; they don't fall to the bottom of the body any more than argon sinks to the bottom of the atmosphere. By the way, just a thought, but I get you more results from men than women.
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Thanks for the link. If anyone can’t afford one of these for the study let me know and I will buy you one of these and post it to each of the participants who require me to.
Peer review can follow the results when publication of findings is submitted. We don’t need peer review to conduct this experiment! I didn’t have peer review when my wife and I tested our urine and I certainly didn’t have it when I saved my Fathers life.
Make no mistake about this study. Once we have the data from at least ten people we will have a pretty convincing paper. I have asked Papworth Hospital for help also and have written to them today outlining the proposal to them.
What if?
If we can show density change I urine relates to posture and gravity it changes everything. The knock on effects of delivering this link with gravity will be unprecedented and when this simple IBT is implemented in hospitals it will undoubtedly save many lives and improve the lives of countless more.
Will we reproduce the preliminary results? Of course we will!
Andrew
Hydrometers to measure the specific gravity of urine are unimaginatively called "urinometers",
they can cost as little as $10 ...
http://www.esportshealth.com/shop/product.asp?catalog_name=School+Health&category_name=Screening+and+Diagnostic+Devices&product_id=Urinometer
The presence of water and detergent in the container can affect results, so make sure it is clean and dry before adding urine.
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Have you considered that urine density depends on a lot of stuff, notably in this instance that at night a hormone called antidiuretic hormone, or ADH, which encourages the kidneys to return more water to the bloodstream rather than channelling it to the bladder, is naturally produced in larger quantities (to reduce the number of times you have to get up in the night to pee).
So the most obvious explanation for lighter urine on an inclined bed is that sleep is less deep?
You could well, for all I know, be entirely correct that your IBT has the effects you claim for it. However, if you really think it yor duty to get your idea the recognition you clearly believe it deserves (and if your claims for its effects are accurate you're possibly right). But your theory for the mechanism is still right up the spout. Seriously.
Incidntally, last time I looked at your claims for this theory you were suggesting that the "minerals" that "fell" to the bottom of the body by gravity were ending up in the nails (made of keratin, a protein). How do you account for hair (primarily on the head, also made of keratin)?
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If ADH increases in the urine are a concern then any such increases will merely add to the density of the urine output, much the same as fluid retention during horizontal bed rest will not affect density measurements because early morning specimen will be accounted for in the average measurements.
And not forgetting we are comparing head down tilt also which should produce higher volumes of near water density urine. How does ADH account for this?
And not forgetting my Father’s renal failure and resulting acute oedema in the legs, which resolved over a few days of avoiding a flat bed. Ironic really when you consider the medical profession believed raising the legs would help and it did nothing!
How do you account for varicose veins going flat over a period of 4 weeks of avoiding a flat bed and sleeping inclined? My theory predicts increased negative tension in the venous return and a corresponding increase in positive pulsatile pressure in the artery and both pressures in the legs increase and decrease respectively during exercise.
As for hair, now this subject is fascinating. Over 18 months give or take a month. I had my hair cut and clipped my nails on the first of each month. Hair was cut using the same electric clippers, always to the same length, as short as possible using the same attachment. The hair was labelled and put in a tin with the date on it and forgotten, until 6 months had passed. The hair clippings was then compared, revealing a slight but definite increase in quantity. Now, I am not sure whether this was because the hair had changed in any way or because it was growing faster, but over the next 12 months the same positive increase in hair clippings became evident.
Also noting pubic hair no longer falls out in males and female, pointed out by a lady nurse who asked if anyone else had noticed similar changes. I had not noticed myself until prompted to take note, and since 1994, we no longer have the proverbial short and curly’s and end up cutting hairs under arms and pubic area frequently as they grow ridiculously long now. Well you did mention hair.
Maybe the hair uses the same building plans as a tree uses to build it’s own foliage? Maybe the hair increases the area of the scalp in order to increase evaporation at the scalp?
Nail growth is definitely accelerated using IBT, Old wounds on nails heal, nails become more supple and generally tougher. Penny Meredith has a condition called psoriatic arthritis. She had holes and ridges in her nails, which were brittle and of very poor quality. They now grow far stronger and healthier and the holes have gone.
Also, several people using inclined bed therapy shed nails completely and grew new and stronger nails that were much healthier than those that were shed. Fascinating!
Had a discussion a long time ago about sloth claws, bat wings and claws etc. Think it might still be on the BBC forums somewhere.
Andrew
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Ah, so you're saying urine density increases with IBT? Fair enough, must have misread what you wrote before. Either way, the point I was making was that I suspect that any effects of IBT are more complex than you're allowing for (the human body is an amazing thing, but rather less amazing than the cells which make it up).
I don't attempt to account for any of your IBT observations in any systemic sense.
In fact, I have no issue with your belief that the body's systems are affected by gravity. Indeed, we know they are. If you stand up for too long under conditions (usually warm conditions) which lower blood pressure (so that the heart has to work harder to pump blood up to the brain when the blood vessels in the legs have relaxed and are holding more volume) the amount of oxygen reaches the brain tends to fall and people tend to faint. Well known fact.
BUT your theory about the importance of minerals to circulation is completely implausible in terms of very well understood physics (which also explains without difficulty the observations of the Brixham Cliffs and other experiments).
If you are planning to produce a paper, and genuinely wish it to be taken seriously and have a chance of providing the enhanced quality of life you believe it capable of, you will be more successful if you limit yourselves to the empirical data and don't try to push your theories too hard, at least until you've made an impact with the IBT.
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I can see where you are coming from with regards to not rocking the boat, but this experiment is relatively simple to repeat and should stimulate some serious debate on the function and roll of gravity in the body. showing a density fall in urine to near water density simply by sleeping head down on a five degree angle will prove solutes are influenced by gravity when suspended in body fluids. No other explanation can answer this!
Andrew
BUT your theory about the importance of minerals to circulation is completely implausible in terms of very well understood physics (which also explains without difficulty the observations of the Brixham Cliffs and other experiments).
If you are planning to produce a paper, and genuinely wish it to be taken seriously and have a chance of providing the enhanced quality of life you believe it capable of, you will be more successful if you limit yourselves to the empirical data and don't try to push your theories too hard, at least until you've made an impact with the IBT.
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Andrew, what process do you go through to deduce that 5 degree's was the right height to sleep at?
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Hi Paul
Initially it was a case of trial and error experimenting with different angles, in fact I have a friend who sleeps on a 7 degree angle or possibly higher.
However, I wanted to understand what was going on inside the body at a variety of angles so decided to test the incline against my experiments with density flow. I used a length of tubing joined together to form a continuous loop, filled it with clean water and added a small amount of coloured salt solution at a point on one side of the loop where the tubes were joined under water to make sure no air was present inside the tube. The tube and joint was the type used to airate fish tanks and costs very little.
the loop was stretch across the full length of the bed with the salt solution positioned at the head end on one side of the loop where the pillow would normally be, (to represent arterial flow).
As the bed was lifted, it was observed that flow occurred as soon as the bed became inclined as one would expect if you have ever used a spirit level. However, at lower heights the salt solution clearly flowed down one side of the tubing and salt free clean water flowed over the top of it upwards in the same side of the loop of tubing. This continued to just below the six inches / 15 cm's incline.
When the optimum angle for circulation was achieved it was a little under the incline chosen but a clear complete circulation of the entire loop of tubing was accomplished, with the return flow in the salt free side representing venous return flow in the body.
Later a syringe was added to administer small pulses of salt solution by first pulling on the syringe and the pushing until a small amount of salt solution entered the loop, again complete rotation of the fluids was achieved.
To confirm the angle, which incidentally was about the most comfortable for my wife and I we conducted many other tests (Understanding wife) The venous return for instance had obviously been enhanced by the incline because varicose veins no longer bulged out on my wife’s leg, For 16 years the veins had bulged out particularly when she was walking I could a large dark vein at the top of her calf muscle swelling up when I walked behind her, especially uphill. She complained of the veins aching also. Now her veins had gone flat, indicating that the pressure that had been pushing the vein out had now reverted to pulling the vein in or at least reducing the pressure sufficiently lower than that of the surrounding tissue, which incidentally explains why many people have reported improvements in oedema in the legs, feet, arms and hands. Which if you think about it does make a lot of sense considering that the oedema in the first place had leeched out of the veins due to internal pressure of the vein being higher than the surrounding tissue. Which incidentally fits perfectly with my experiments with solutes and tubes.
In fact, I used to have some soft walled tubing that must have been silicon or clear latex. (Wife threw it away) (need some more if anyone has some) I had noticed that the syringe body in my experiments used to administer pulses of salt solution was being sucked in as the open ended tubular experiment shown clearly in the video’s so I decided to test how pressure changes would inflate and deflate both sides of a loop of tubing. My god, I thought when I saw one side being sucked in and the other side ballooning clearly when the salt end of the closed supple continuous loop of tubing was raised vertical. As an engineer I thought if I were to place a heart in this circuit it would be more or less where the heart is placed in our bodies. Here in our pump free loop of flexible tubing we can clearly see push pull effects on the tube and if repeated pulses of salts were injected a pulsatile rhythm would be produced.
At the London International Inventions fair, I set up an elaborate network of tubing and introduced a drip feed bag, obtained from a friend in the local hospital. The bag was filled with dark blood coloured water and could introduce salt as tiny pulses regulated.
The tubes were taped with clear tape to the display board, and at the bottom we used a catheter bag half filled with clean water but no air space joined to the network of tubes at the bottom, with a double T connector allowing salts to flow into the bladder bag, which represented the human equivalent of a kidney and a bladder and cleaner water was observed to flow out of the Night time catheter bag and through another bag filled with water (the final rinse in our cycle) and up the return flow side of the tubular network. The Night time catheter bag had and outlet at the bottom with an open and close valve used to empty it which performed exactly the same as when we urinate removing the spent salts from the circuit and reducing the volume inside the bag respectively. This experiment was shown to doctors, nurses, inventors, engineers, physicists, the general public, mechanics, electricians, plumbers, chemists, biologists, surgeons and politicians, including a high ranking government official from Turkey too many to list in fact as the exhibition attracts a massive audience over 3 days
Many people tried to demolish the theory but once they had seen the experiment for themselves and had it explained to them, all but about a handful failed to connect with inclined bed therapy and the way gravity must act on density changes within.
But, let’s not forget the changes in heart rate and respiration rate when sleeping inclined. A 10-12 beat per minute drop in heart rate and a 4-5 breaths per minute drop in respiration must surely provide the icing on the cake. Not just in sleeping humans, but in sleeping dogs, 3 to be precise, all showing the same decreases as humans when sleeping inclined.
Andrew
some circulation was present even at horizontal but more a spreading out of the solutes in both directions. Then I raised the bed and observed the flow as it ran down one side of the tube
Andrew, what process do you go through to deduce that 5 degree's was the right height to sleep at?
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Hi Andrew, Sorry if this is already explained here, and I am just missing the overall picture, but can you just clarify for me the health benefits you are expecting from this, and that it is a 5 degree angle at the head end?
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Hi Ben and welcome to Naked Scientists.
The point of this experiment is to show that renal function is dependent on the direction of gravity in relation to the circulation circuit within the body. Someone with poor renal function for example could expect a better detox effect if their bed was titled to a five degree at the head end, so that solutes flowing through the kidneys can be filtered and excreted into the urine.
For a much larger picture of the principles behind tilting the bed do a google using "inclined bed therapy"
If I can be of more help let me know, but there is a lot of information online already and a lot of information in this forum.