0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
QuoteIs The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ? More of a pointless philosophical abstraction than an illusion.
Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
The brain does thus not do much in fact , so to speak , the mind is the one doing almost everything , the brain merely generates the data it receives from our senses to be sent to our consciousness somehow thus , and then afterwards , the brain just receives back the corresponding process of the mind via reflecting its image , an image most scientists take for the cause of the process , thanks to materialism thus .
There are no such things such as "materialistic " findings ,as there are no such things such as the materialistic "methods ", simply because materialism is just a false conception of nature , an ideology , a world view ..
I am well aware of those scientific experiments regarding when patients' brains get scanned ,while those patients are asked to perfom or think about a decision , like raising one of their arms : scientists think they can predict the specific decision -making of those patients many seconds allegedly before the latter would be aware of his/ her presumed decision-making in question , when scientists see that the raising of the arm precedes the firing of those corresponding brain regions involved in that process : those scientists do not realise the fact that they do take the image of that process for its cause thus, by assuming that the firing of those specific corresponding brain regions is the actual decision -making process in question, while the firing of those corresponding brain regions in question are just the image of that process in fact , the image of the process that does occur always afterwards thus , after the actual cause of the process that precedes it , logically.........Consciousness as a sort of a transmitter might be the one sending its "data " somehow to the physical brain to raise the patient's arm, prior thus to the firing of those brain corresponding regions thus :those scientific experiemnts do prove this fact in fact ., which does prove the fact that those scientific experiments are a matter of ...interpretation thus .The brain is just the image of the process of the mind thus , not its cause , that's why the arm gets raised before the brain fires : it is in fact the mind thus that causes the arm to be raised , and then afterwards the brain just reflects the image of that mind process of raising the arm .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 15/11/2013 17:49:20The brain does thus not do much in fact , so to speak , the mind is the one doing almost everything , the brain merely generates the data it receives from our senses to be sent to our consciousness somehow thus , and then afterwards , the brain just receives back the corresponding process of the mind via reflecting its image , an image most scientists take for the cause of the process , thanks to materialism thus .Which is why brain damage has no impact on the capability of the mind, and it's also why a fly can think every bit as well as a human, because its mind is not constrained by its tiny brain.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 15/11/2013 17:49:20There are no such things such as "materialistic " findings ,as there are no such things such as the materialistic "methods ", simply because materialism is just a false conception of nature , an ideology , a world view ..Okay then, if you don't like the term I used, then replace it with "methods and experiments involving the physical processes of chemistry and physics, cells etc". Again, just because some scientists choose to study those aspects, it doesn't prevent anyone else from investigating "the rest of reality as a whole." No one is tying their hands.
Unless you see the hand of God or some immaterial force in every single physical interaction, there is no reason why experiments involving just chemistry and physics or cells should necessarily be "false." My point earlier, was that I would think those experiments and findings would still be useful, even for someone who believes in free will, in ruling out where it is not.
Mystics, however aren't fond of any constraints or boundaries, so they don't find them helpful. Basically, their view is "anything can happen, any way, any time" as illustrated by Sheldrake's quote: “Morphic resonance is non-energetic, and morphogenetic fields themselves are neither a type of mass nor energy. Therefore there seems to be no a priori reason why it should obey the laws that have been found to apply to the movement of bodies, particles and waves. In particular, it need not be attenuated by either spatial or temporal separation between similar systems, it could be just as effective over 10,000 kilometres as over a centimetre, and over a century as an hour."
There may be things beyond what physics understands, but I don't see how one makes use of that premise, without having any idea what, specifically, those things are, and without having any evidence for them. Being open minded is one thing, but believing "anything can happen because of things we don't know about" is paralyzing, not helpful.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 15/11/2013 17:49:20I am well aware of those scientific experiments regarding when patients' brains get scanned ,while those patients are asked to perfom or think about a decision , like raising one of their arms : scientists think they can predict the specific decision -making of those patients many seconds allegedly before the latter would be aware of his/ her presumed decision-making in question , when scientists see that the raising of the arm precedes the firing of those corresponding brain regions involved in that process : those scientists do not realise the fact that they do take the image of that process for its cause thus, by assuming that the firing of those specific corresponding brain regions is the actual decision -making process in question, while the firing of those corresponding brain regions in question are just the image of that process in fact , the image of the process that does occur always afterwards thus , after the actual cause of the process that precedes it , logically.........Consciousness as a sort of a transmitter might be the one sending its "data " somehow to the physical brain to raise the patient's arm, prior thus to the firing of those brain corresponding regions thus :those scientific experiemnts do prove this fact in fact ., which does prove the fact that those scientific experiments are a matter of ...interpretation thus .The brain is just the image of the process of the mind thus , not its cause , that's why the arm gets raised before the brain fires : it is in fact the mind thus that causes the arm to be raised , and then afterwards the brain just reflects the image of that mind process of raising the arm .You've misread something in those experiments, whether you agree with them or not. The arm does not get moved before neurons fire. Neurons in the brain fire before the patient experiences the conscious decision to move his hand. They are saying brain activity precedes the conscious experience, which makes it harder to argue that brain states are just a reflection of consciousness, or that the brain is the just middle-man between consciousness and the body. The only way your interpretation works is if you were to claim that there is some part of the immaterial consciousness process that occurs before you are conscious of it, but that really messes up your concept of free will. Quite a sticky wickett, isn't it.
The physical brain as both a generator ( via our senses thus ) and a receiver of consciousness, the latter as some sort of a transmitter ...
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 16/11/2013 16:25:27The physical brain is just the image of the process of consciousness, not its cause .The physical brain as both a generator ( via our senses thus ) and a receiver of consciousness, the latter as some sort of a transmitter ... Current understanding, (that the mind is entirely within your skull), is sufficient to explain all observed psychological phenomena, [ telepathy/souls/afterlife have never been proven to occur ].So there is no need for your thin-client model of consciousness, and no evidence for it.You’d need to provide some evidence to overturn current understanding, e.g. demonstrate the existence of the servers for these thin-clients, (where are they ?) , and evidence of transmission of data from to/from the server , ( if someone wears a tin-foil balaclava will they be unable to retrieve archived data , (aka remember), because the connection to the sever has been blocked ? )The only people who wear foil-hats, but not in jest, (or wallpaper their home with it), are psychiatrically ill, trying to block the voices in their head which they misinterpret as remote mind-control via radio-waves.
The physical brain is just the image of the process of consciousness, not its cause .The physical brain as both a generator ( via our senses thus ) and a receiver of consciousness, the latter as some sort of a transmitter ...
... have never pretended to have all answers on the subject
Just tell me then why and how did you come to believe ...
For example : how can DNA , physics and chemistry , let alone the materialist version of evolution explain how certain migrating birds do know exactly when how and where they should be migrating ?
Brain damage just disconnects the specific brain damaged areas from their corresponding aspects of consciousness , it does not make the latter go away .The physical brain is just the image of the process of consciousness, not its cause .The physical brain as both a generator ( via our senses thus ) and a receiver of consciousness, the latter as some sort of a transmitter , i guess .
What you do not seem to be getting so far is that science has been assuming that reality as a whole is just material or physical ,including consciousness or the mind , free will, life , memory , feelings , emotions, evolution and the rest , thanks to materialism : that's the mainstream "scientific world view " that's , obviously false .
QuoteFor example : how can DNA , physics and chemistry , let alone the materialist version of evolution explain how certain migrating birds do know exactly when how and where they should be migrating ?A lot of birds follow simple programs to migrate. Experiments have shown that if you put them in the right kind of circular container, they may flutter against the side for hours, then move to another part and flutter there for hours more. Had they actually flown rather than being trapped in a container, the directions they fluttered in and the durations of those flutters would have taken them directly along their programmed migration route. These programs are subject to random mutations which result in different birds ending up in different places, with some going thousands of miles off course, the result often being death in an ocean or other unsuitable habitat, but sometimes they survive and establish the genetics for new migration routes which make the species more robust.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 16/11/2013 17:28:52What you do not seem to be getting so far is that science has been assuming that reality as a whole is just material or physical ,including consciousness or the mind , free will, life , memory , feelings , emotions, evolution and the rest , thanks to materialism : that's the mainstream "scientific world view " that's , obviously false . And what you don't get is the idea of relevancy. It doesn't matter what science assumes or doesn't assume about other parts of reality if those parts aren't relevant to what an individual scientist is examining. If a botanist fails to include string theory or magnetism or Lorentz contractions or angels or plate tectonics in his plant experiment, he isn't going to generate false conclusions unless those things actually have some effect on the plant mechanism he is studying. And you need evidence to show that they might be relevant. Otherwise one is stuck with never being able to draw any conclusions at all if one believes anything can happen in any way because of things we don't know about. And that is mysticism or simply being irrational.
The mind is not in the brain , so, when one would assume that it is , as the mainstream materialist "scientific world view " has been doing , then, it' s pretty logical to assume that the conscious feeling of raising the arm gets experienced after the firing of neurons : those scientific experiments are a matter of interpretation thus , and the latter depends largely on how one perceives reality as a whole to be , including the nature of consciousness or the mind thus .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 16/11/2013 16:25:27Brain damage just disconnects the specific brain damaged areas from their corresponding aspects of consciousness , it does not make the latter go away .The physical brain is just the image of the process of consciousness, not its cause .The physical brain as both a generator ( via our senses thus ) and a receiver of consciousness, the latter as some sort of a transmitter , i guess .Why do you imagine that every little bit of functionality of consciousness relies on a piece of hardware in the brain which carries out the same function? When you damage part of the brain, you directly damage the function there and not merely a linkage to identical function elsewhere. The brain provides the functionality directly.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 16/11/2013 18:15:49... have never pretended to have all answers on the subjectI never asked for "all answers", just that you would have to produce some hard evidence to demonstrate your hypothesis is what is occurring in reality. I gave you two suggestions in my previous post, [ just occurred to me a water-tight submarine with thick steel walls would be a better example than a metal-foil balaclava ]. If you can find something which blocks the alleged transmission of data to/from brain to/from the alleged external storage device, that would be very strong evidence to support your case.Quote from: DonQuichotte on 16/11/2013 18:15:49Just tell me then why and how did you come to believe ... Belief is a matter of evidence. There is no hard evidence to support your hypothesis. Come up with an experiment which anyone can replicate which demonstrates the orthodox "materialist" view is wrong and your "belief" is correct, then people will believe you are correct, (and give you a Nobel Prize , there are other prizes too).
Try to answer my questions ,first , instead of migrating somewhereelse via some inexplicable magical performances tricks
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 16/11/2013 20:08:33Try to answer my questions ,first , instead of migrating somewhereelse via some inexplicable magical performances tricks You’re the only one here proposing “inexplicable magical performances tricks” like telepathy,which are either tricks (fraud) or claims of a deluded person.