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Quote from: DonQuichotte on 06/01/2014 19:54:39Quote from: dlorde on 06/01/2014 19:35:10Quote from: Ethos_ on 06/01/2014 19:13:14It should be obvious to everyone participating in this thread that Don is beyond help. He won't listen to reason, he won't compromise, it is highly unlikely that he ever will. I'm giving up on him, more important things to do besides trying to coax him toward reality.True; these days I'm posting for the exercise and entertainment - as I said before, whenever it gets boring you can just wait a while, and he'll always come back with some new inanity []Yeah ,right , just keep on deluding yourself then .See above .The only delusion being exercised here is taking Stapp's word on these questions for granted. Look in the mirror Don!
Quote from: dlorde on 06/01/2014 19:35:10Quote from: Ethos_ on 06/01/2014 19:13:14It should be obvious to everyone participating in this thread that Don is beyond help. He won't listen to reason, he won't compromise, it is highly unlikely that he ever will. I'm giving up on him, more important things to do besides trying to coax him toward reality.True; these days I'm posting for the exercise and entertainment - as I said before, whenever it gets boring you can just wait a while, and he'll always come back with some new inanity []Yeah ,right , just keep on deluding yourself then .See above .
Quote from: Ethos_ on 06/01/2014 19:13:14It should be obvious to everyone participating in this thread that Don is beyond help. He won't listen to reason, he won't compromise, it is highly unlikely that he ever will. I'm giving up on him, more important things to do besides trying to coax him toward reality.True; these days I'm posting for the exercise and entertainment - as I said before, whenever it gets boring you can just wait a while, and he'll always come back with some new inanity []
It should be obvious to everyone participating in this thread that Don is beyond help. He won't listen to reason, he won't compromise, it is highly unlikely that he ever will. I'm giving up on him, more important things to do besides trying to coax him toward reality.
Look who's talking : a paradoxical guy who happens to be believing in 2 mutually exclusive world views : don't you think that that fact does put you in no position to judge what others might or might not believe in ?
Stapp's just doing the usual business of working back from an incoherent cultural/philosophic assumption based on special pleading, and struggling to find a way to connect it to physical reality. In this case the assumption is that people are 'morally responsible agents' because they have a special kind of control that only they can exercise - what he calls "the morally pertinent idea of ‘possessing free will’" - that somehow transcends physical causality (special pleading). Naturally, it's not easy to connect what is beyond physical causality to causal physical processes. The best he can do is find a point of unknown causality in QM (the outcome of decoherence) and say the (unspecified) magic happens there. What puzzles me is why he, and so many others (usually religious apologetics) find it necessary to explain the abstract cultural conveniences of moral responsibility and free will in these terms. If there's anything more to it than having an excuse for (i.e. not feeling guilty about) blame, punishment (and, perhaps retribution), I'd like to hear it.Personally, I see my free will as the freedom to act as determined by what makes me uniquely 'me' - my state of mind at the time of the decision, which in turn, is determined by the genetic inheritance my parents gave me, and a lifetime of development and growth, interaction with my environment and experiences; what I've been taught, and what I've learnt, and what I've thought about. That's what makes me uniquely 'me'; what else do the advocates of causal transcendence think should be involved?
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 06/01/2014 20:12:28Look who's talking : a paradoxical guy who happens to be believing in 2 mutually exclusive world views : don't you think that that fact does put you in no position to judge what others might or might not believe in ?You can believe what ever you like Don and I'll believe what I find evidence for. And Stapp is obviously wrong on several counts. But that's OK, trust in your Guru if you like, I'll stick to the facts.
When I first started reading this thread, I found Don very interesting and considered him to be quite intelligent. As time has progressed and I began to see this pattern of his, for constant repetition of his spurious sources, I've come to the conclusion that he is not as bright as I once thought. To tell you the truth, I don't think he really understands this questionable theory that he uses as his source. I doubt he's intelligent enough to separate the facts from the fiction and simply takes the assertions of these sources as real science. And he is so committed that even were he to realize the errors, he would just casually ignore them.
Folks :In short : The objective reality out there is way beyond our reach , and beyond that of science as well ,
Quote from: Ethos_ on 06/01/2014 19:53:12When I first started reading this thread, I found Don very interesting and considered him to be quite intelligent. As time has progressed and I began to see this pattern of his, for constant repetition of his spurious sources, I've come to the conclusion that he is not as bright as I once thought. To tell you the truth, I don't think he really understands this questionable theory that he uses as his source. I doubt he's intelligent enough to separate the facts from the fiction and simply takes the assertions of these sources as real science. And he is so committed that even were he to realize the errors, he would just casually ignore them. I think he's intelligent enough, but he seems to have no idea of rational argument or critical thinking, always starting from an unsustainable assumption or working back from his desired conclusion. He gives me the impression he's used to getting his own way through bluff and bluster rather than reasoned debate, losing his temper or flouncing out if he fails.Quite amusing though []
No, QT is the one that's subjective ( The founders of QT saw it as such ,remember ) : mind -dependent = a matter of interpretation , that's why there are a lots of interpretations of the Copenhagen interpretation of QT , the latter depends largely on the a -priori held beliefs or world views of the scientists thinkers in question,as we see that reflected in this very thread through Stapp's and through the materialists ' interpretations of QT such as those of yourselves .
The observed objective reality out there in general , either at the microscopic or macroscopic levels , gets distorted by the mind of the observer through the a-priori held beliefs or world views of the observer which do shape his /her mind and hence his thoughts ,behaviours , ethics , actions ....
Reminds me of an Arab Muslim I used to know. His father owned a vast amount of Gulf oil and this son of his thought the world revolved around himself and every thing he touched. Don reminds me a lot of that spoiled brat, makes me wonder what allegiances Don might secretly have ..........just wondering???
Quote from: Ethos_ on 06/01/2014 21:15:10Reminds me of an Arab Muslim I used to know. His father owned a vast amount of Gulf oil and this son of his thought the world revolved around himself and every thing he touched. Don reminds me a lot of that spoiled brat, makes me wonder what allegiances Don might secretly have ..........just wondering???No comment...
.. where does that free will you were talking about come from then ,within the framework of materialism ?How can free will rise from the classically materialist mechanical determinist conception of the physical reality or of the physical brain then ?
Personally, I see my free will as the freedom to act as determined by what makes me uniquely 'me' - my state of mind at the time of the decision, which in turn, is determined by the genetic inheritance my parents gave me, and a lifetime of development and growth, interaction with my environment and experiences; what I've been taught, and what I've learnt, and what I've thought about. That's what makes me uniquely 'me'; what else do the advocates of causal transcendence think should be involved?
dlorde :You're a lousy reader and a lousy scientist
Not nearly as offensive as calling dlorde a swine or calling me a monkey!!
QuoteNot nearly as offensive as calling dlorde a swine or calling me a monkey!!Why is that offensive? AFAIK neither species gets involved with religion, philosophy, or discussions about a subject they refuse to define, which makes them more intelligent and rational than most humans.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 06/01/2014 20:45:58Folks :In short : The objective reality out there is way beyond our reach , and beyond that of science as well , And beyond Stapp and DonQuichotte as well if we are to accept these preposterous immaterial assertions. In final analysis, nothing can be known, nothing we see is really there, nothing we measure is valid, even the sound we hear is only illusion, so I might as well quit listening to your crab Don because you're not real either nor will you ever be!..........................right?
Folks :In short : The objective reality out there is way beyond our reach , and beyond that of science as well , since science is just a human activity , and since the observed objective reality out there gets distorted by the minds of the observers through their a-priori held beliefs or world views that do shape their minds , and hence their thoughts , behaviours , ethics , actions ,views , opinions ....Major proof ,once again ? : the materialist false belief or false world view that's been equated with science for so long now .Objectivity is thus a myth , together with the so-called metaphysically -neutral science .
I have allowed this discussion to become way too personal
, and for that, I apologize to everyone participating in it.
For that reason, I will withdraw myself from it. I'm sure Don will applaud this action but I leave him with one piece of sincere advice:
Sir Don;Please try to examine honestly the issues raised by your fellow contributors like; delorde, Cheryl, and alancalverd. If you're wise and honest, you have a chance to learn something of value. If you continue to insist that it's your way or the high way, the remaining participants here may decide to depart as well leaving you alone with your thoughts and your theory.
Regards to all....................................Ethos