Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: Madidus_Scientia on 19/01/2010 09:15:32
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I think this is deplorable:
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/earthquake-survivors-get-solar-powered-bibles/story-e6frfku0-1225821184929
Imagine you're in Haiti, you're starving, have no water, in need of wound dressings, anti-biotics etc. And someone comes along and gives you a bible, what use is that going to be? And not a normal bible, at least you could use that to start a fire or something, but a dirty great solar powered audio bible capable of preaching to 300 people, so it must have a reasonably hefty speaker, and therefore an expensive solar panel. It disgusts me that some people think religion is more important than immediate welfare needs.
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hear hear body and health first soul after plenty of time to repent after the body is healed
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What a waste of time, effort and money.
These people need water, medicines, food and shelter.
Stick your bible where the sun doesn't shine and do something USEFUL!
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I suspect the more enterprising amongst them will quickly be tearing the e-bibles apart and wiring the solar panels up to other devises. I doubt that's what the church had in mind.
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its a bit like giving a glass of water to a drowning man
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Is it just me or is it (at best) the height of poor taste to say "Come and worship the ever loving God! i.e. the entity that just wiped out about quarter of a million of your friends and neighbours"?
Lets face it, if there's a God then He just showed that he holds people in utter contempt.
God could have saved them, but He failed. It's the turn of us other humans to try to help . We might lack God's miracles; but at least we exist.
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I'll be happy to drop some of these "good people" off in the middle of the Sahara desert with nothing but one of their bibles. It should work quite well there, so I'm sure they'd do just fine. Maybe Pat Robertson would like to go along with them?
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It reminds me of the episode of South Park where christians raise enough money to build an interstellar spaceship to spread the world of god to Marklar
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Sadly, there are many churches of all denominations who really are trying to help the people of Haiti with their real and urgent needs. These imbeciles with their "Electrobible" should be universally condemned by all churches. I'm not a religious person, but I do know many who are, and I will bring this to their attention.
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While you are at it, could you ask them why they think it's aporopriate to worship an entity that capriciously decides to wipe out all those people and condemn many others to untold misery?
No doubt they will have a stock answer- it's hardly a new question.
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Well I could, but I think it's better to fight one battle at a time.
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I have mixed feelings about this. When the victims of this earthquake were pulled out of the rubble of their homes and places of work, what did most of them do? They sang hymns. They are quite a religious nation. The trapped people drew the strength to survive from their faith. I think that some of them may need the crutch that religion offers at this time.
I can't see that this particular object (solar bible) would be useful to them as I'm sure people can still come together and practise their religion without it. I doubt it would be allowed into the aerport as a priority.
What I do object to is the religious groups that get people to donate cash or shoeboxes of items to help the victims and then add bibles and evangelical materials. These boxes are then sent to all people of all religions, in order to recruit new Christians. This really shows a lack of respect for those peoples beliefs. I know that operation Christmas child (Samaritans purse) do this at Christmas time. They also force recipients to attend bible rallies. They never mention this in their literature. Charity with hidden ends....terrible.
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I can't believe that people are reacting so harshly towards this.. Aid is aid. I think it's a case of "this would be useless to me in this situation, so it's useless in this situation!" here.
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I can't believe that people are reacting so harshly towards this.. Aid is aid. I think it's a case of "this would be useless to me in this situation, so it's useless in this situation!" here.
I didn't say that!
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Nah, I didn't really mean you Make it Lady.
As for recruiting more people, how exactly can any religion ever be successful if you don't talk to people about it? Religion is a bit like capitalism in this respect; yes, the top companies may do some pretty unethical things if it benefits them, but they will benefit from it greatly, as will the consumer (or so called victim of religion) because often, unethical things are cheaper: look at fairtrade food. I also disagree that sending these bibles is even doing that in the first place; according to wiki around 95% of them are some form of Christian, so..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Haiti
The title is such a ridiculously loaded question. Let's turn the tables here.
Say a scientific organisation is sending science books to Haiti. A Christian forum sees the news; posts a thread with the topic title: "You're in Haiti, starving, thirsty. Will a science book help?"
Kinda missing the point of sending the aid, isn't it? Both science books & bibles would be useful to the Haitians & would no doubt be appreciated - people do what they can. If this group are doing what they can, good for them!
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By definition, Christians are supposed to "peddle" their faith. Haiti is a horribly backward country with over 200,000 child slaves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restavec) and half the country practicing voodoo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Vodou). Something is terribly wrong there, and it's not the hurricanes or the earthquakes. They share their island with the Dominicans who are a world apart from Haitians. The Haitian society is badly broken. [:0] [:0]
Haiti does have its problems. So what? Are the Haitian people to be punished?
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The title is such a ridiculously loaded question. Let's turn the tables here.
Say a scientific organisation is sending science books to Haiti. A Christian forum sees the news; posts a thread with the topic title: "You're in Haiti, starving, thirsty. Will a science book help?"
Kinda missing the point of sending the aid, isn't it? Both science books & bibles would be useful to the Haitians & would no doubt be appreciated - people do what they can. If this group are doing what they can, good for them!
GFF - If you think that is true, I suggest we try an experiment.
Let's suppose we drop you off in the middle of a desert without any water or food. We leave you there for a bit, then, we fly a plane over you and drop off some supplies. If the plane can only drop off one type of supply at a time, how would you prioritize this list of supplies?
Water
Food
Medical Supplies
Heat/Cool
Shelter
Personal hygiene products
Something to sleep on
Clean clothes
Security
Bibles
Science books
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I agree that fresh clean water food shelter is a much more immediate issue than faith. However, a Christian group won't be able to send the equivalent of USS Carl Vinson, will they?
It's a disanalogy Geezer - the aid to Haiti doesn't come one drip at a time. Also, there isn't just one aircraft dropping in that aid.
Look, I'm not saying it's what I would have done. It is better that they have sent these bibles than not - therefore they deserve praise, not ridicule.
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If there were the capacity to handle these Bibles, then fair enough, send them by all means. It is a fact that many people do find comfort and solice (and even direction) through religion. I would not wish to deny believers their right to 'turn to God'. Equally, I would not use the opportunity to say 'if there is a God, then it is He who has brought this pain and suffering upon you'.
But the fact is there is not the capacity to deal with even the more immediate requirements of these unfortunate people as it is. A shipment of Bibles getting in the way can only serve to hamper the aid mission and prolong the suffering.
Yes, people have been thanking God for their survival and praying to Him. Does this fact not show that the believers do not need Bibles? They have their faith. What they need now are the material necessities for survival.
Even if I were a believer, I would have the same opinion, in fact, perhaps more so. Perhaps in 6 or 12 months time, when I begin to question why God had sent such punishment upon me and my already impoverished countryfolk, my faith being tested to the extreme, a Bible might help to reinforce my faith.
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I think it's simply a question of priorities. I have no objection to the folks in NM sending bibles to Haiti once the basic needs of the people have been taken care of. Also, if the Haitians had been crying out for bibles, then let then have bibles. But I think they were crying out for clean water, medical aid, and food, and they still are.
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Thanks for your spirited dialog about the solar powered audio Bibles. Even if you are a person of faith or not, we all agree that food, water, medical supplies, doctors, nurses, etc., are first priority.
First things first, these audio Bibles are NOT displacing ANY essential aid to these people who have suffered so much. They are not on a pallet on an airdrop nor in a cargo hold on a ship. They aren't clogging any runways or denying, delaying any aid.
In fact, these devices are still in the states enroute to dozens of relief groups who have called ASKING for them. They are shipping in small waves and won't start arriving until early Feb.
The Haitians have been preyed upon for a long-time by those interested in exploiting their natural resources and impoverishing their people.
Our non-profit believes the people of Haiti are that nation’s most precious resource and we desire to empower them with the Scriptures (in which they believe) in a format they can use. Roughly half the nation is unable to read, so giving them the Bible in their language and in a format they can use–audio, is completely reasonable.
Our organization has been working with the Haitians since 1986. The people on the ground are our friends, coworkers and fellow believers.
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"First things first, these audio Bibles are NOT displacing ANY essential aid to these people who have suffered so much"
Yes they are. It doesn't matter how they are transported; that transport route could be used for something useful.
Incidentally, this is a science forum so things like this "Our non-profit believes the people of Haiti are that nation’s most precious resource and we desire to empower them with the Scriptures"
will get queried.
I'm happy to accept that people are the most important resource but can you justify the second clause i.e. "we desire to empower them with the Scriptures".
Is there any evidence that giving them scriptures helps to empower them?
Many of them are believers; they already had the scriptures and that didn't get them any power before.
The evidence of past experience indicates that having a bible or access to one doesn't stop you living under a horrid set of conditions.
Might they not do better spending their time looking for water or even just resting, rather than listening to what seems to me to be a 2000 year old fairy tale?
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^ BC, if it provides comfort, it provides comfort. There are things more important than the truth sometimes. You are in a terrible position as an apathetic non-believer to understand the importance of that, I suppose. There is evidence that faith protects against mental illness; surely that's a signal that religion is good for the soul, excuse the pun?
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I'd be interested to see that evidence, because i'd wonder if it just seemed that way because many delusional people are written off as just religious, since it's impossible to distinguish between the two.
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A delusion it may or may not be. I don't really care either way. That is a word that is unhelpful in describing what belief actually is.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081023120228.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2568974/
I am disinterested in arguing about this further because I do not think I will change anyone's mind. Less & less am I seeing debate as an effective way of changing people's minds.. if you don't feel like religious belief will is helpful, then you just don't feel it is, I can't argue with a feeling. How you think about that belief will change how you feel about it, but if you're stuck thinking about it purely from a "this isn't true, & I feel like that's all that matters!" perspective, then no amount of debate will change your minds.
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I think nothing is bad if you give a bible, "if" what your heart tells you when you saw them suffering, it only depends on "you", cuz "if" you only believe what in the bible is will help you then it will but if "not" it only depends on "you" again. For me i believe cuz it happens to me not only "ones" but "many times" I was 8 that time that i ask him that i am hungry i was having a fever and nobody in the house, i was living at my aunt that time cuz my father is looking for work on the other city with my mother, i was awaken with hunger and pain in my whole body because of fever and called help and nobody was there, i was crying and that's the time i remember him that being taught in sundays school, i ask him that i am hungry but while i was still praying a bread falls from above outside, i saw it because i was looking at the window bended on my knees with tears, its the bread of a child that he is holding, about 2 years of age and then his babysitter said "Oh that's dirty" so i go outside and pick the bread and ate, if you're not a believer then it's only coincidence but if you are then you know what i'm talking about. there's no more room to say.
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At best they're a placebo. Should we send some sugar pills too?
For topspin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
From Epicurus:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
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There are things more important than the truth sometimes. You are in a terrible position as an apathetic non-believer to understand the importance of that, I suppose. There is evidence that faith protects against mental illness; surely that's a signal that religion is good for the soul, excuse the pun?
OK,for a start is it right for me to tell you lies to keep you happy or is that, at best, patronising?
That I can be bothered to write this proves that I'm not apathetic so perhaps you should dispense with the ad hom attacks. Trying to stop wasted effort on bibles in order to channel real help to these people isn't apathy.
I'm not aware of any real evidence that supports your assertion about religion preventing mental illness. Feel free to cite some.
There is some evidence that religious feelings are caused by mental health problems- specifically by temporal lobe epilepsy.
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Sadly, DiscoverDave, I think that your perception of the world may not be exactly as it seems. I don't know about the states, but most of the issues you describe are concerns here in the UK too. People are worried about 'positive discrimination' despite the fact that being a white male still makes you more likely to get the job. Most, if not all, of the companies you mention with strong minority bias on their website photos will be predominantly staffed by white males.
There is the Daily Mail here, and propably a similar media outlet in the states, that thrives on encouraging the opinion that being of the majority is somehow detrimental, despite the fact that the opposite is usually true.
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Oh, did I mention that I'm beyond middle age, which also seriously damages my chances.
I think ageism is probably still rife!
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To me thinking "those starving people really need a solar powered bible" is, at best, unscientific. This is a science website so I'm going to carry on bashing them just as I will bash the people who think snake oil cures malaria or who reckon that we never went to the moon.
I can assure you it's nothing to do with Christianity. I am every bit as biased against all religions and I consider racism to be a form of religion in this context (it's a belief system based on bias and hearsay rather than observation).
There probably is an argument that, if someone were sending solar powered copies of some other religion's "holy book" to the area, the press would keep quiet about it for fear of being accused of racism. That's unfortunate.
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To me thinking "those starving people really need a solar powered bible" is, at best, unscientific. This is a science website so I'm going to carry on bashing them just as I will bash the people who think snake oil cures malaria or who reckon that we never went to the moon.
BC - Can you add one more to your list? Hypocrites who allow themselves to benefit from science but rigorously and selectively apply anti-science in areas that happen to contradict their religious dogma.
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Yes, this is a science website. However, that does not mean science can be used to guide our actions when it comes to social situations. Science is reductionist & looks at one variable - trying to make out that religious belief in the way you define it as one variable is a massive oversimplification. Racism, was (& I guess still is) based on observations (i.e black slaves were not intelligent, for example), and was also justified by science. Don't make the mistake of thinking that scientific conclusions are free of the influence of their culture - or that observations themselves are free of those influences, & the conclusions that scientists make. I mean, there is no objective, scientific testability of the truth to value claims, & that's what racism is - a claim that one race is worth less or more than another.
Unfortunately, as wonderful as science is in testing claims, it is not a magical solution to world problems.
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so Haiti is a broken society is it? The very same is being said of Britain at the moment. Two young boys were so damaged by their upbringing that they tortured and nearly killed two other young boys. The only reason why the boys escaped with their lives is because the perpetrators arms got tired. We've got a rising teen pregnancy rate and obesity growing all the time. I think the west has problems of its own, without casting around for others to call.
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Yes, this is a science website. However, that does not mean science can be used to guide our actions when it comes to social situations. Science is reductionist & looks at one variable - trying to make out that religious belief in the way you define it as one variable is a massive oversimplification. Racism, was (& I guess still is) based on observations (i.e black slaves were not intelligent, for example), and was also justified by science. Don't make the mistake of thinking that scientific conclusions are free of the influence of their culture - or that observations themselves are free of those influences, & the conclusions that scientists make. I mean, there is no objective, scientific testability of the truth to value claims, & that's what racism is - a claim that one race is worth less or more than another.
Unfortunately, as wonderful as science is in testing claims, it is not a magical solution to world problems.
Science learns from its mistakes. Science does not presume infallibility.
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"However, that does not mean science can be used to guide our actions when it comes to social situations."
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" may be part of many creeds, but it's rational self interest. It acts as a good guide in most circumstances and, since it included in most faiths, where it fails, religion would fail too.
" Racism, was (& I guess still is) based on observations (i.e black slaves were not intelligent, for example)"
There is no evidence to believe that slaves were uninteligent- just ill educated. The same is often true of ethnic minorities today and it perpetuates the myth that racism is, or was ever, justified.
"I mean, there is no objective, scientific testability of the truth to value claims, & that's what racism is - a claim that one race is worth less or more than another.
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There is an objective test.
The nul hypthesis is that there is no difference between the groups. If you wish to claim otherwise you need to show evidence to support that claim.
No such evidence has been found and therefore the claim is false.
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If all the people who took part in WWII had formed performing arts groups instead the world might well have been a better place. If a few more army chaplains had remembered the bit about "Thou shalt not kill" it would have helped to.
(BTW, Geezer, that's another hypocrite group to add to those due for a bashing)
There really is a difference between making bibles available for those who want them; and using space on relief transport for luxuries rather than necessities.
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Is it just me or is it (at best) the height of poor taste to say "Come and worship the ever loving God! i.e. the entity that just wiped out about quarter of a million of your friends and neighbours"?
While you are at it, could you ask them why they think it's aporopriate to worship an entity that capriciously decides to wipe out all those people and condemn many others to untold misery?
No doubt they will have a stock answer- it's hardly a new question.
Not all Christians desire to shove their beliefs down the throats of anyone who will listen. I'm a Christian and have been since.....well, I don't remember a time when I wasn't, but I would never be so bold as pretend to know why God would allow such a tragedy in Haiti (or any tragedies) to happen. I would also never ask someone who believed differently why they thought their beliefs were "appropriate". To do so would make it appear that I thought them inept or incapable of intelligent thinking.
I have mixed feelings about this. When the victims of this earthquake were pulled out of the rubble of their homes and places of work, what did most of them do? They sang hymns. They are quite a religious nation. The trapped people drew the strength to survive from their faith. I think that some of them may need the crutch that religion offers at this time.
I can't see that this particular object (solar bible) would be useful to them as I'm sure people can still come together and practise their religion without it. I doubt it would be allowed into the aerport as a priority.
What I do object to is the religious groups that get people to donate cash or shoeboxes of items to help the victims and then add bibles and evangelical materials. These boxes are then sent to all people of all religions, in order to recruit new Christians. This really shows a lack of respect for those peoples beliefs. I know that operation Christmas child (Samaritans purse) do this at Christmas time. They also force recipients to attend bible rallies. They never mention this in their literature. Charity with hidden ends....terrible.
For the most part I agree with MIL though I don't believe the strength I draw from my faith a crutch. I too have mixed feelings regarding the distribution of religious/spiritual materials. If I were in this horrible situation, whether as a Christian or not, I would much rather have water, food, clothing and shelter for my loved ones and myself above anything else. I would not, however, be offended if someone gave me a bible. On the other hand, I do find it offensive to send care packages that include those materials.
"First things first, these audio Bibles are NOT displacing ANY essential aid to these people who have suffered so much"
Yes they are. It doesn't matter how they are transported; that transport route could be used for something useful.
Incidentally, this is a science forum so things like this "Our non-profit believes the people of Haiti are that nation’s most precious resource and we desire to empower them with the Scriptures"
will get queried.
First of all, who are you to determine what is and is not useful to someone? What you find offensive may very well bring comfort and peace to someone else. Those that don't want one, don't have to accept it.
Secondly, I don't see where it matters that this is a science forum. If this person, audiobible, is an actual representative of this non-profit organization, why should he not be allowed not to defend his organization on a site clearly posting a link discussing said organization. He wasn't disrespectful or the least bit argumentative, which is apparently unfamiliar territory for you.
To me thinking "those starving people really need a solar powered bible" is, at best, unscientific. This is a science website so I'm going to carry on bashing them just as I will bash the people who think snake oil cures malaria or who reckon that we never went to the moon.
If all the people who took part in WWII had formed performing arts groups instead the world might well have been a better place. If a few more army chaplains had remembered the bit about "Thou shalt not kill" it would have helped to.
(BTW, Geezer, that's another hypocrite group to add to those due for a bashing)
There really is a difference between making bibles available for those who want them; and using space on relief transport for luxuries rather than necessities.
You seem to be doing an awful lot of bashing, BC. It also appears that because this is a science forum you feel you have some sort of justification for your bashing. In my opinion, BC, you are just as guilty as the Christian/religious groups that you despise. Where as they might say that you're doomed to Hell if you don't follow our path, you act as if someone who is a Christian, or for that matter, does not agree with you, is ignorant and not worthy of breathing the same air as you. Not every Christian/spiritual person is a fanatic. Not all of us blindly follow just anyone that holds a bible and spouts religious rhetoric. There are plenty of us that are always questioning....not our faith in God, but the traditional religious beliefs we were brought up believing. You lump us all together and assume we are ignorant. To treat all Christians as uneducated because of the few you've encountered is as close minded and uninformed as me saying something as ridiculous as "All scientists are arrogant, know it all jack-asses", based on the negative experiences I've had with a few mean spirited scientists.
And finally, as DiscoverDave pointed out, the Proclaimer Bible is small and takes up minimal space in regard to transport.
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Okay scientists, here’s the real deal --- a Proclaimer Bible (http://www.mission1014.org/images/Proclaimer.jpg) is the size of a cigar box! So, 600 units would require about a 6-foot cube of space.
Fair enough, I guess it won't displace as much real supplies as I thought then.
I'm still a little angry about it, through my atheist eyes it's no different to sending them a crate of homeopathy pills, or acupuncture kits, but I guess the real problem is the country's reliance on the supernatural in the first place. Only education will help that, but how do you educate your people if you're doing everything you can just to feed them.
I still hope someone goes around modifying them to be a radio or something useful :)
Actually maybe a similar technique could be used for education? Do you think audio-textbooks could give people a basic education even if they remain illiterate?
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I think it's not just the space that the bibles take up, but the cost of manufacture too. I'd be happier if a priest had gone to Haiti (thus offering the religious support that some may desire), but that every penny spent on electronic bibles had been spent on essentials.
Even if they're really cheap - so are water purification tablets.
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This is silly. It doesn't matter how little space these bibles waste- if it's a waste then it's still a waste.
A six foot cube of bottled water would help a lot of thirsty people. A six foot cubed water purification system (and fuel) might help more.
If there's someone out there who's first priority is a bible then he really ought to realise that, compared to those in need of shelter, food and water, he is so well off he should go and help others rather than worry about solar powered bibles.
And, BTW, even if all scientists were know it all jackasses then, provided that there was evidence for this, and evidence that if they changed it would be better then they would accept the evidence and change.
Religion doesn't do that. That's the difference.
Here's an interesting question; which group heads towards heavenly perfection quickest; the one that changes or the one that sticks to dogma in the face of evidence?
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Here's an interesting question; which group heads towards heavenly perfection quickest; the one that changes or the one that sticks to dogma in the face of evidence?
In Buddism, the former. I wouldn't like to comment on other religions.
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I don't know, for those sending it they mean well, they are giving spiritual solace to people in need of it. And as I understands it Haiti do have a lot Christians?
And for them those bibles might be taken in the spirit they were given, as a gift and solace reminding them that there is something more that just grief. To have faith can be a great comfort when times get rough, and as I don't know whats waiting until I'm there :). Also I've known some really good people that are, or were, believers their whole life, but I think they would have sent more than just the bibles though?
They must have sent something more than just the bibles?
--Quote--
Convoy of Hope has people positioned on the ground to receive containers of food, clothing and supplies that are being sent to Haiti. They are partnering with churches in Haiti that are ministering to those left in the aftermath of this deadly earthquake. Pastors will receive the Proclaimer units and will use them to minister to groups of hurting and wounded people who need the Word of God in their heart language.
--End of qoute- Convoy of Hope (http://www.faithcomesbyhearing.com/audio-bibles-minister-hope-haiti)
I think they're okay.