Naked Science Forum

Life Sciences => Cells, Microbes & Viruses => Topic started by: Simpleton on 02/08/2009 23:53:12

Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 02/08/2009 23:53:12
Dear Forum members,

There seems to have been a great deal of chat within the forums (and externally) about the Influenza virus (H1N1, H5N1, Swine Flu) including what it is, how it affects us, what effects vaccines have on us etc etc. From my understanding, if you become infected and have no previous resistance, you and your immune system have to deal with the current strain for between 5-7 days. As the virus takes a hold within the cells and the immune system kicks in sending white soldiers to the battle, the first response (on medical advice) is to take the Anti-viral medicine Relenza or Tamiflu, within 24-48 hours of fever. What I would like to know is, "Is that it?"

What natural complementary remedies are there?
Are they likely to be any of help?
Can the list below be used in conjunction with Tamiflu?

What about Garlic?
or Vitamin C
or White Tea
or Fern-leaved Biscuit-root (Lomatium dissectum)
or Betulinic Acid
or Black Elder berries
or Goji berries,
or Icelandic angelica
or Prunella vulgaris
or Vitamin D
or even Ozone therapy

Based on the current national and international advice, if I become ill with H1N1 like symptoms I should not go to my doctor, for risk of infecting others. If I get really sick (bad breathing or organ complications) I could go to hospital if beds are available at this time, mmm.... For a moment, I imagine myself at home with the onset of fever, so there I am with my medical kit containing some Asprin and Paracetamol and my dose of Tamiflu or Relenza or both?, hoping & praying the current virus has not already found partial or full immunity to those products or indeed mutated and is even stronger than the reported mild version.

That's it? That's my defence? My life could depend on this! Is that all the scientific and medical community can offer me? Come on, this is 2009...We are off to Mars soon!

What about if my first aid kit contained some or all of the list above, measured into the correct dosages, together with a precise plan of when to take what and in what order. Are my chances of survival likely to be greater or not?

What other complementary medicines are there?
What remedies helped in previous outbreaks?
Is anyone interested in helping to put a more concise list together?
Would like to also document dosages and a specific timetable for the 5-7 days?

Kind of hoped the WHO and various world government organisations, even pharmaceuticals would do all this for me, but seems not to be the case...its up to me personally, a Simpleton! It appears they all seem too busy buying vaccines, setting up advice lines and ensuring, together with the world media, that the public is in enough panic!

Looking forward to your response & collaboration.
Title: Re: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/08/2009 20:29:22
Conventional medicine is medical treatment which has been shown to work.
What does that leave as the "alternative"?

That list of "remedies" is a list of things that have been not shown to work for other flu strains; why try them on this strain?


Even in the 21st century we rely on our immune system for practically everything.
We have been done it since before we knew what immunity was. It works pretty well in most cases.

The advice from the doctors is the best availlable guess at the best thing to do.
Title: Re: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 04/08/2009 01:33:18
Conventional medicine is medical treatment which has been shown to work.

"Mmm. So as-far-as conventional medicine is concerned, Acupuncture, Herbalism and Homeopathy, for example, are at best, complementary medicines that problably do not work, and at worst witch-craft? One of the words used to define conventional medicine is "Western Medicine". Are we still living in a world where Western (conventional) doctors believe they are somehow better than medicinal doctors from other schools of thought? Oh dear. However, I don't really think that individual doctors believe this, I think it is more to do with what governments and pharmaceuticals think and what they then encourage (enforce) via doctors."

In the following definition (medicinenet.com), I dont see any reference to medical treatment that has been shown to work, actually find it a bit arrogant, actually very arrogant and quite naive, but guess that's how conventional medical dictatorship works.

Definition of Conventional medicine

Conventional medicine: Medicine as practiced by holders of M.D. (medical doctor) or D.O. (doctor of osteopathy) degrees and by their allied health professionals, such as physical therapists, psychologists, and registered nurses. Other terms for conventional medicine include allopathy and allopathic medicine; Western medicine, mainstream medicine, orthodox medicine, and regular medicine; and biomedicine."

What does that leave as the "alternative"?

"If I were to change the word from alternative to complementary, would that that mean I was able to consider my list of items as something potentially useful in conjunction with conventential medicine and therefore potentially useful for my first aid box? I would be really amazed if a conventional western doctor tried to argue that Acupuncture, Herbalism and Homoeopathy are disciplines that have no use in treating ailments in the 21st century. I think amazed is too light, actually I think the doctor would be laughed off the face of the planet."

Definition of Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM).

Alternative medicine: Healing arts not taught in traditional Western medical schools that promote options to conventional medicine that is taught in these schools. An example of an alternative therapy is using a special diet to treat cancer instead of undergoing surgery, radiation, or chemotherapy that has been recommended by a Western physician. Complementary medicine is different from alternative medicine. Whereas complementary medicine is used together with conventional medicine, alternative medicine is used in place of conventional medicine.

Complementary medicine: A group of diagnostic and therapeutic disciplines that are used together with conventional medicine. An example of a complementary therapy is using aromatherapy to help lessen a patient's discomfort following surgery."

That list of "remedies" is a list of things that have been not shown to work for other flu strains; why try them on this strain?

"Mmmm. Aha, So my list of "complementary" medicines has been shown not to work (by the fact they have not been monetised by conventional medicine??) or is there another list saying they dont work, full stop. Does that then mean, for example, Lomatium dissectum, in terms of conventional medicine, is to be disregarded as a medicinal plant that could not possibly help fight against H1N1?

Desert parsley (Lomatium dissectum) has been used by many Native American tribes to treat a wide variety of infections, mainly of the lungs. Historical and traditional sources report that desert parsley was used during the influenza pandemic of 1917 with positive results. http://www.healthline.com/natstandardcontent/desert-parsley

Is the above citation false or misleading or pure speculation possibly even based on witch-craft? Aha, moment, I see how it works now, I can cleary see the problem with the above paragraph..."Native Amercian tribe". Even if historical and tradional sources report positive results with its use, it cannot be considered anymore use than eating straw as it is not Western? Or did I slip up somewhere?"

Even in the 21st century we rely on our immune system for practically everything.

"Huh? So trying to strenghen the immune system with anything other than conventional medicine is a pointless exercise, even when an illness like the 2009 H1N1 virus, which no-one has immunity too, arises, and even when it may have had documented positive results in the past?"

We have been done it since before we knew what immunity was. It works pretty well in most cases.

"I agree (if I decipher your meaning correctly), the immune system is a wonderful part of the human makeup and is our first line defense against illness, and in most cases it functions as it was designed to do, perfectly. However I would strongly argue that this is not "most cases" and even would go so far as to say Epedemics, now a Panademic, is the total opposite of most cases."

The advice from the doctors is the best availlable guess at the best thing to do.

"Doctors being, Conventitional or Western Doctors, ok?  I must say the "best available guess" phrase does not give me an overiding sense of security when it comes to dealing with a virus that has no known cure and where previous bouts resulted worldwide in 10's of millions dying.

What is so wrong (apart from it not being conventional) with considering complementary medicine? Often in history, complementary remedies and practices have been shown, through years if not centurys or milleniums of actual practice, to be the basis for conventional medicinal "products".  I am quite sure in the 21st century we have collectively moved beyond the concept that we in the West know better than everyone else. You only have to look at the example of Eastern medicines and how the industry has exploded  over the past 20 years in the UK, times have most certainly changed.

I thankyou for your comment, especially from someone who has posted many comments on this forum (almost 4000) and is non other than a "Hero member". It certainly helped me to clearly see some of the differences between conventional, alternative and complementry medicine.

Sadly, it appears your advice (do what conventional doctors tell you to do, take prescription drugs) and you hardline stance on conventional medicine will prevent you from adding worth to my quest, that being, the creation of a personal Complementary First Aid Kit for H1N1 and other Influenza A & B strains.

Best regards."

Title: Re: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 04/08/2009 01:35:41
PS, Have changed the title of this conversation to read, complementary rather than alternative, in the hope more people feel safer to comment or participate.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: BenV on 04/08/2009 12:10:11
It seems to me you were prepared for a more aggressive response than Bored Chemist's rather reasonable comment above. 

Non-conventional medicine does get a luke-warm reception on this forum, often because it's linked with people claiming that conventional medicine is flawed, wrong or dangerous.  You can see why this sort of thing should not be encouraged here - should someone vulnerable read these threads and decide to forgo medical advice in favour of the latest wonder-berry or super-food, the consequences could be disasterous.

However, there is nothing wrong with taking whatever you feel will make you feel better. 

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So my list of "complementary" medicines has been shown not to work (by the fact they have not been monetised by conventional medicine??)

Things being "monetised" is irrelevant - if the NHS could stave off enough swine flu cases by advising people to eat garlic and drink green tea, they would be doing so.  (Think of the bonuses that people could award themselves, having shown to cut costs and improve health!)  The advice given most often by doctors is to eat healthily and get adequate exercise - who's making money from that?

Of course conventional medicine learns from herbal/traditional/'folk' medicine - it always has done, and will continue to do so.  But should doctors recommend something that is rumoured to work, or something that has undergone extensive tests and dosages calculated for best effect/least side effects?
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 04/08/2009 13:26:46
Firstly, thanks for comment, I am glad this posting is sparking some reaction.

It seems to me you were prepared for a more aggressive response than Bored Chemist's rather reasonable comment above. 

"Rather reasonable comment? Which was that conventional western medicine is the only medicine you should consider against a virus that has no cure, even if we have historical evidence of positive results pertaining from complementary medicines such as herbalism; not sure about that.  To be honest, I am not here to dismiss or argue against conventional medicine, the opposite in fact. I would like to compliment the advances of conventional medicine. As there is are only a couple of medical suggestions from the conventional community ie. Relenza & Tamiflu, both of which may seem a level of resistance in a mutated version of H1N1, it would see sensible, to me, to look at complementary medicine. This would be especially true if resistance to conventional medicine is confirmed. In fact, if it was confirmed, what would be the advice from conventional doctors? Panic?

Non-conventional medicine does get a luke-warm reception on this forum, often because it's linked with people claiming that conventional medicine is flawed, wrong or dangerous.  You can see why this sort of thing should not be encouraged here - should someone vulnerable read these threads and decide to forgo medical advice in favour of the latest wonder-berry or super-food, the consequences could be disasterous.

"People who claim that conventional medicine is flawed, wrong or dangerous, are indeed Quacks! It is not that I'm looking necessarily for encouragement, but more a sharing of experiences in order to put together a complementary approach to the same problem. Perhaps science and nature can work together on this problem. To forgo conventional advice may be a choice made by people, but this post does not infer, at any time, that one should do that, in fact it is about building a first aid kit which includes conventional medicine. Another question that springs to mind...What would the consequences be of people ignoring complimentary medicine should, for example, Tamiflu and Relenza be useless in the coming months? Would that not be disasterous?"

However, there is nothing wrong with taking whatever you feel will make you feel better.

"That is clear, what I feel is only a subjective opinion, with a community of information and thought, perhaps it can be narrowed down to a more effective collection of treatments. However, the problem for most people is, which complementary forms work best, what quantities, when to dose, what to include or leave out of first aid kit, what historical evidence is there etc etc.. "

Quote
So my list of "complementary" medicines has been shown not to work (by the fact they have not been monetised by conventional medicine??)

Things being "monetised" is irrelevant - if the NHS could stave off enough swine flu cases by advising people to eat garlic and drink green tea, they would be doing so.  (Think of the bonuses that people could award themselves, having shown to cut costs and improve health!)  The advice given most often by doctors is to eat healthily and get adequate exercise - who's making money from that?

"Ok, it was below the belt (tongue in cheek). Actually, I don't know why the NHS is not promoting foods/complementary medicines high in Anti-viral properties, such as garlic. We have a viral problem and it is well know that garlic, for example, is high in Anti-viral properties (as other items on my initial list).  Why would the NHS not want to provide the public (customer) with as many possibilities to survive the illness as possible, especially as the conventional approach may have a short life span?  I mean, a national campaign, advertising garlic increase to those entering the initial stages of H1N1 may me a good idea, don't you think?  Still cannot see why conventional medicine is not willing to work alongside complimentary medicine for the good of all. Why are there no official conventional tests on items contained on my list? It's not because they don't work, full stop, is it? Is it not because no-one can patent it and therefore make money from it?  It can't be that difficult to carry out some live studies with current infections. A) it helped, B) it did not help.

Of course conventional medicine learns from herbal/traditional/'folk' medicine - it always has done, and will continue to do so.  But should doctors recommend something that is rumoured to work, or something that has undergone extensive tests and dosages calculated for best effect/least side effects?

"Doctors should always work for the best interests of the patient. As mentioned above, why is not possible to shrug off "rumoured to work" and complete initial testing to show how complimentary medicine can help the masses.  Perhaps the real fear is patient self application. For example, I could purchase all the items on the list and use them freely if I wish, with either good/bad or indifferent results. What would therefore the role of the doctor be?"  I would like to see this as a great opportunity for conventional, alternative and complimentary medicine to harmonise on a pandemic problem.  Will it become reality? Don't know?"
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: BenV on 04/08/2009 14:45:40
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Which was that conventional western medicine is the only medicine you should consider against a virus that has no cure, even if we have historical evidence of positive results pertaining from complementary medicines such as herbalism;

That's my point - that's not what he said.  He said that conventional medicine is stuff that's been proven to work - your list hasn't been proven to work, and that we really rely on our immune systems to deal with infection anyway.

Quote
it would see sensible, to me, to look at complementary medicine. This would be especially true if resistance to conventional medicine is confirmed.

But I eat garlic almost every day - I love the stuff.  Flu would be far more likely to develop a resistance against a foodstuff that many of us eat regularly than a drug a few of us take occasionally.

Quote
Is it not because no-one can patent it and therefore make money from it?  It can't be that difficult to carry out some live studies with current infections. A) it helped, B) it did not help.

This is a common misconception with the medical industry, that patents are all important.  I don't know how this applies in the rest of the world, but the NHS will snap at anything cheap or free, the companies who make generic drugs would also benefit (rather than risking lawsuits and prosecution).

Doing studies is actually not simple at all - the ethical issues alone take months and cost a great deal to resolve.  Sadly, it's just not that easy, and this is why the pharma industry need to spend billions on research.

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. As mentioned above, why is not possible to shrug off "rumoured to work" and complete initial testing to show how complimentary medicine can help the masses. 

Some of this testing has been done and things shown not to work, some has been done and things shown to work, after which the active components are usually identified and refined and called conventional medicine.

Quote
Perhaps the real fear is patient self application. For example, I could purchase all the items on the list and use them freely if I wish, with either good/bad or indifferent results. What would therefore the role of the doctor be?

Sadly, the role may well be helping people to recover from taking too much, or inappropriately mixing different physiologically active compounds.


You seem to be an intelligent person who is fully able to risk assess for yourself, and can almost certainly try self-medicating with no ill effect.  The concern is that some people are not, and will harm themselves unintentionally.  As such, a doctor has a responsibility to recommend substances and courses of action that are well understood.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 04/08/2009 15:37:24
Thanks for replying.

Your replies resonate a calm, rational, solid understanding of the topic. I guess what I am seeing is a long way off in the future or indeed already occurred in another time or civilisation. It currently seems too big a shift in common consciousness to prepare the masses in time.

In the meantime, will prepare my own first aid kit, will probably have to self-research quantities and dosages and naturally experiment a little. Should I be unlucky enough to catch this flu, will implement the first aid plan, including conventional advice, if it is still pertinent , and then build it up from there. If the experiment is successful, and the internet still exists as we know it, will post conclusions here.

In line with conventional medicine, I'm off for a game of tennis, will drink plenty of water and have just polished off a banana, some grapes and an apple. May add more later!
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Make it Lady on 04/08/2009 18:40:41
Prevention is always better than cure. If you build up a strong immune system you are less likely to circum to the virus. Diet is the most important ingredient along with exercise, sleep and relaxation (eg having a massage every now and then. Avoiding stress is also a good idea but I guess it is not possible for most people.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/08/2009 19:35:16
"In the meantime, will prepare my own first aid kit, "
For what it's worth, I have prepared my own first aid kit for flu.

Lots of bottled orange juice. Lots of biscuits and crisps (I think they are called chips across the pond). Vitamin pills too, but nothing extraordinary- just cheap one-a-day pills, Paracetamol (acetaminophen for our US cousins) and a few boxes of tissues.

The medical advice is "drink plenty of fluids and stay in bed".
The old adage that you should feed a fever is well supported (up to a point) so that's what all those calories are for) the paracetamol is partly because you can overdo a feever and also because, while I know that the fever (and associated malaise) are part of the body's immune response, it doesn't mean that I like the effect).
The vitamins are because all that comfort food is also junk food.
The tissues are because they have fewer side effects than decongestants (and again the normal drug treatments are at odds with the body's systems for dealing with infection).

All that lot isn't ging to stop me 'phoning the hot line and asking them to send me the antivirals because those have been shown to actually help.

I'm not planning to include eye of newt or tongue of bat because I don't think there's any evidence to support their use.


Incidentally the complement of something means the opposite so "alternative medicine" and "complemenatry medicine" mean much the same thing. Once again, there's medicine which works and the complement to that; medicine that... never mind, I'm sure you will work it out.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 04/08/2009 20:12:28
Prevention is always better than cure. If you build up a strong immune system you are less likely to circum to the virus. Diet is the most important ingredient along with exercise, sleep and relaxation (eg having a massage every now and then. Avoiding stress is also a good idea but I guess it is not possible for most people.

"Thanks for the reply.

What if the virus does not care about how strong your immune system is. What if the virus happily infects and kills healthy young people with good strong immune systems? It seems that the press is reporting such a situation (for example: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090629200800.htm), not sure how accurate it is, or what the exact statistics are, but worrying enough nonetheless.  I guess then it does not matter how good your diet is or how many hours sleep you get or how less stress your life has. Perhaps the only thing that will help, if it comes to the point, is a vaccine or a power natural anti-viral remedy, known or unknown."

Please also read the next comments to Bored Chemist. Against H5N1, a strong healthy immune system is reportedly a liability!
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 04/08/2009 21:16:08
"In the meantime, will prepare my own first aid kit, "
For what it's worth, I have prepared my own first aid kit for flu.

Lots of bottled orange juice. Lots of biscuits and crisps (I think they are called chips across the pond). Vitamin pills too, but nothing extraordinary- just cheap one-a-day pills, Paracetamol (acetaminophen for our US cousins) and a few boxes of tissues.

It's good to hear English humour, it is somewhat lacking here in Germany!

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The medical advice is "drink plenty of fluids and stay in bed".

How difficult would it be for the medical advice to read. "drink plenty of fluids containing tincture a, b, c and stay in bed."

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The old adage that you should feed a fever is well supported (up to a point) so that's what all those calories are for) the paracetamol is partly because you can overdo a feever and also because, while I know that the fever (and associated malaise) are part of the body's immune response, it doesn't mean that I like the effect).

If it was only a fever that we were discussing, I would totally agree (love English crisps). However & unfortunately it is not. My main interests in researching plants & root & foods/fruits with high anti-viral properties are two fold; firstly, current anti-viral medicines will soon be of little or no use should the virus mutate and become more virulent (studies in the US, Canada, Japan and Germany are already indicating mutation). Secondly, the virus turns ugly and produces a Cytokine storm reaction. If the virus develops this tendency, it will indeed void out the relationship to strength and ability of the immune system to be of use. In such a situation a strong healthy immune system, will ultimately become a liability not an asset. Time will then be of the essence as the virus reproduces.  Perhaps, just perhaps, the North American tribe folk who were reportedly, very lightly affected by the 1918 flu (in comparison to the rest of the US), due to their reported intake of Lomatium dissectum. There has also been research & tests conducted, with positive results...

History: Lomatium is an exceptionally important and highly regarded plant in First Nations medicine, but appears to have escaped the notice of the physiomedicalists and Eclectics. It is difficult to imagine how this occurred, considering that other equally important and useful First Nations plants such as Echinacea and Goldenseal were identified fairly early on. The relatively recent popularity of Lomatium is due in part to academic research conducted by ethnobotanists over the last century, by herbalists that apprenticed with First Nations healers, and from clinical experimentation in naturopaths circles in the Pacific Northwest. Lomatium first attracted the attention of the medical community when it was shown to be effected in treatment an influenza epidemic in the Great Basin area during the 1920's (Bergner 2001, 231).

http://1stnationstribes.tribe.net/thread/48f314c0-09b1-48a7-89a1-e24e8ca7313e

Presently the H1N1 is predominately mild, as it was back in 1918, it was subsequent waves of a mutated form that caused the mass deaths, especially in young healthy people. Perhaps the mild form can be complimented with a few bags of crisps, a packet of ASDA paracetamol, some orange juice and a box of tissues, but I'm not betting on them being much use against a mutilated form that is more virulent.

It is believed that cytokine storms were responsible for many of the deaths during the 1918 influenza pandemic, which killed a disproportionate number of young adults.[1] In this case, a healthy immune system may have been a liability rather than an asset. Preliminary research results from Hong Kong also indicated this as the probable reason for many deaths during the SARS epidemic in 2003.[6] Human deaths from the bird flu H5N1 usually involve cytokine storms as well.[7] Recent reports of high mortality among healthy young adults in the 2009 swine flu outbreak has led to speculation that cytokine storms could be responsible for these deaths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_storm

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All that lot isn't ging to stop me 'phoning the hot line and asking them to send me the antivirals because those have been shown to actually help.

And should they become resistant and there is no suitable alternative and no hot line? Bet you'd consider eye of newt or tongue of bat over hula hoops! When people become desperate all options are open. Before they become desperate it would be nice if they had a few more realistic options, even if they have not being billion dollar tested.

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Incidentally the complement of something means the opposite so "alternative medicine" and "complemenatry medicine" mean much the same thing. Once again, there's medicine which works and the complement to that; medicine that... never mind, I'm sure you will work it out.

Such a shame that two words, "complement and alternative" cant get on with "conventional"! 
The joys of academia.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 04/08/2009 21:46:02
A real story. Just been chatting to a friend on Facebook. A UK pair and their son recently developed flu like symptoms including tonsillitis. Her partners doctor refused to see him (full stop). Her doctor saw her and her young son after some persuasion and a story about interest in general illness. They eventually diagnosed tonsillitis. She says her partner and son still have flu, but it is not any worse than a normal bout. I have to say I am bit surprised by the partners doctors reaction.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/08/2009 22:31:05
"How difficult would it be for the medical advice to read. "drink plenty of fluids containing tincture a, b, c and stay in bed."
It would be easy; and dishonest.
Unless there were some real evidence that a, b, and c worked. If there is, then name a, b and c; otherwise accept that you don't have much to offer.

It's fair to say that the virus may mutate and become more of a problem.
It's equally likely  (statistically) that it will mutate and become less of a problem.
It is in the interests of the virus (if you will forgive the anthropomorphism) to become less of a problem.

Why does averyone seem to fixate on the idea that "it will get worse"; it might or it might not.

" Bet you'd consider eye of newt or tongue of bat over hula hoops! "
No I wouldn't I don't believe in magic but I do believe in evidence. Food is known to help snake oil isn't.

"Before they become desperate it would be nice if they had a few more realistic options, even if they have not being billion dollar tested."
There are at least 3 antivirals used; one (amantidine) is a bit crap (but I'd choose it rather than eye of newt) and the third is largely being kept in reserve for exactly the reasons you talk about.
Did you not realise that the people doing the planning can read wiki too? They have heard of resistance.


Incidentally, do you know that plenty of drugs are based on botanicals? Opium and it's derivatives are still used. Aspirin too has been used for a long time. More recently vincristine and taxine have been developed from plants.

If someone looks into lomatium and actually finds that it works then it too will be accepted into real medicine.
If the tests show that it doesn't work it will remain in what gets called "complementary medicine".

It will be there along with things like comfrey - known as "knitbone" because of its supposed healing properties and actually found to  be hepatotoxic and carcinogenic.


Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Variola on 04/08/2009 22:44:40
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Incidentally, do you know that plenty of drugs are based on botanicals? Opium and it's derivatives are still used. Aspirin too has been used for a long time. More recently vincristine and taxine have been developed from plants.

Indeed,Cyclosporine was developed from a fungus and has been instrumental in organ donation.

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If someone looks into lomatium and actually finds that it works then it too will be accepted into real medicine.
If the tests show that it doesn't work it will remain in what gets called "complementary medicine".

People have, it hasn't shown to be make any difference, therefore it stays as it is.

OP you're knowledge of 1918 is a little hazy, either that or you were being deliberately selective.
The Westernized treatment  we know today have all been derived, directly or indirectly from plants and nature, when stuff that is shown to work and be effective, thats called medicine. The stuff that doesn't work, or has been shown not to have any real effect, thats called complementary medicine, or maybe just plants.



Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 04/08/2009 22:46:09
Will reply again soon. Time for a break!
Thanks for spending time contributing to this topic, it's all food for thought!
PS. Think the forum is great! Well done.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 04/08/2009 22:51:37
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People have, it hasn't shown to be make any difference, therefore it stays as it is.
Do you have a citation for that, interesting.
PS. What is OP?
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Variola on 04/08/2009 22:59:24
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People have, it hasn't shown to be make any difference, therefore it stays as it is.
Do you have a citation for that, interesting.

http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?ContentID=2126009

Its has a 1 star rating "For an herb, supported by traditional use but minimal or no scientific evidence. For a supplement, little scientific support and/or minimal health benefit."

"According to obscure sources, lomatium is reputed to have antiviral effects. One source suggests the constituents tetronic acids and a glucoside of luteolin may be potentially antiviral.2 However, little is known about how these compounds act or if other ones might be as important."

Thats from a site that would be biased on the side on benefit.
I could, I expect find more studies or reports.

What do you think happens? That herbs are investigated but then dismissed? Far from it. The drug companies are always looking for new plants herbs or remedies to studies and asses the structure of, and then test to see if they actually have any benefit.

OP means original post or poster.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 04/08/2009 23:29:02
Just read this article, coincides with previous comments.

A Tamiflu-resistant mutation of A(H1N1) had been found around the US-Mexico border in El Paso and close to McAllen, Texas, according to Maria Teresa Cerqueira, head of the Pan-American Health Organization office in La Jolla, California.

http://www.swineflunews.org/news/wire/hongkong/www.redorbit.com/news/health/1731942/tamifluresistant_swine_flu_cases_growing/index.html
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: BenV on 04/08/2009 23:29:53
The old adage that you should feed a fever...

I thought it was starve a fever, feed a cold?
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 04/08/2009 23:33:22
Have removed the poll posting to focus on this, the first posting.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: BenV on 04/08/2009 23:38:17
I think the general issue with considering complementary therapies is to attempt to consider the mechanism through which it works.  Setting aside placebo (which is an incredibly powerful effect), this should give you an indication of whether or not there's likely to be any as yet undiscovered physiological effect.

By this regime, herbal treatment (which may well include beneficial chemicals) shows a great deal more promise than homeopathy, and one is forced to question things like acupuncture (from what I recall, the most recent studies showed acupuncture works just as well with blunt wooden needles).

Not setting aside placebo, you're in a whole different ballpark...
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/08/2009 21:38:48
The old adage that you should feed a fever...

I thought it was starve a fever, feed a cold?
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=24084.0
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 06/08/2009 13:49:16
Quote
People have, it hasn't shown to be make any difference, therefore it stays as it is.
Do you have a citation for that, interesting.

http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?ContentID=2126009

Its has a 1 star rating "For an herb, supported by traditional use but minimal or no scientific evidence. For a supplement, little scientific support and/or minimal health benefit."

"According to obscure sources, lomatium is reputed to have antiviral effects. One source suggests the constituents tetronic acids and a glucoside of luteolin may be potentially antiviral.2 However, little is known about how these compounds act or if other ones might be as important."

Thats from a site that would be biased on the side on benefit.
I could, I expect find more studies or reports.

What do you think happens? That herbs are investigated but then dismissed? Far from it. The drug companies are always looking for new plants herbs or remedies to studies and asses the structure of, and then test to see

if they actually have any benefit.

OP means original post or poster.

Thanks for the link. Had a browse through the site and found that the only 2 star herbs useful against Influenza are Echinacea & Elderberry. Other interesting herbs I found were Andrographis paniculata, 3 stars, for use with colds, immune function and infections. To support the immune function, Asian ginseng, 2 stars.

Below is how my initial list fairs.

Garlic - http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?ContentID=3601005
Common cold (Extract)
Herbs, such as garlic, that stimulate the immune system to fight infections are used at the onset of the common cold. In a double-blind trial, participants took one capsule per day of a placebo or a garlic supplement that contained stabilized allicin (the amount of garlic per capsule was not specified) for 12 weeks between November and February. During that time, the garlic group had 63% fewer colds and 70% fewer days ill than did the placebo group.

Vitamin C - http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?ContentID=2929001
2 stars for Influenza and Immune function.

White Tea - http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?ContentID=2102007
1 star for Immune function

Fern-leaved Biscuit-root (Lomatium dissectum) - http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?ContentID=2126009
1 star for infection. In addition...
Historical or traditional use of lomatium (may or may not be supported by scientific studies)
Native Americans of many tribes reportedly used lomatium root to treat a wide variety of infections, particularly those affecting the lungs.1 Lomatium was used, particularly in the southwestern United States, during the influenza pandemic of 1917 with reportedly good results.

Betulinic Acid - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VSC-48XH7DRD&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4eff94f6a91fe083eda8a9cdb8e8875d
Abstract: Antiviral properties of betulin, betulinic and betulonic acids were investigated in cell cultures infected with herpes simplex type I, influenza FPV/Rostock and ECHO 6 viruses. All studied triterpenes were active against herpes simplex virus. Betulin and especially betulinic acid also suppressed ECHO 6 virus reproduction.

Elderberries - http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?contentid=1221006
2 stars for Influenza

Goji berries - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfberry
No stars found. High in Vit C. Reportedly good to help recover after Influenza.

Icelandic angelica - http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/06/16/icelandic-angelica-prevention-for-swine-flu/
No stars. Not much info.
During the time of the Spanish influenza (1), there are accounts of Angelica archangelica being used as flu treatment in Denmark. Recent studies linking the origin of the swine flu virus to the Spanish influenza (2) of 1918 further suggest that the herb may prove to be an effective prophylactic for swine flu prevention people can use to avoid infection if the Influenza A virus becomes more severe.

Prunella vulgaris - http://www.biomedexperts.com/Abstract.bme/10588332/Isolation_and_characterization_of_an_anti-
HSV_polysaccharide_from_Prunella_vulgaris
No stars and perhaps of no use.
...but was inactive against cytomegalovirus, the human influenza virus types A and B...

Vitamin D
There is a whole discussion of this on the forum already. See...http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=21270.0

Ozone therapy - http://ozonicsint.com/articles_avian.html
No stars found. Interesting paper.

Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 06/08/2009 15:32:44
"How difficult would it be for the medical advice to read. "drink plenty of fluids containing tincture a, b, c and stay in bed."
Quote
It would be easy; and dishonest.

Ok, your right, have to agree with you on that. For the masses, without knowledge of their current aliments, individual herbs, as tinctures, could caused complications in certain people. I am grateful for everyones comments as I have learned a great deal about this issue and the problem that could face us all, a possible Flu panademic with an increased virulent strain and little or no medical protection.

Quote
Unless there were some real evidence that a, b, and c worked. If there is, then name a, b and c; otherwise accept that you don't have much to offer.

Individually, I would personally consider a number of complementary therapies at the onset of cold and fever and with specific relationship to H1N1. Aside, for a moment, one of the current problems is identifying if you have H1N1 or just a cold or something totally else. Tamiflu, as reported, has a number of side effects and these could be avoided if a clear diagnosis could be given via a home test kit (not likely to be available). As testing has stopped or has been heavily reduced, it would be difficult to know what I had! However presuming enough of the symtoms matched, I would firstly use conventional medicine, probably Relenza, Asprin (but not for children) and complement it with, for exmaple, Lomatium dissectum, Echinacea and Andrographis together with increased intake of Fresh garlic, Ginger, Vit A, Zinc, Vit-C, in the form of elderberries, goji berries and blackcurrants.

Quote
It's fair to say that the virus may mutate and become more of a problem. It's equally likely  (statistically) that it will mutate and become less of a problem. It is in the interests of the virus (if you will forgive the anthropomorphism) to become less of a problem.

It does appeaer, from recent reports, to be mutating, also with an increased resistence to Tamifu.  Again you are right (statisitcally) and, as everyone reading, I also hope it becomes less of a problem.  From my understanding of previous outbreaks, should it become more viscious, it will happen quickly. I do not really think there will be enough time to start planning and researching and purchasing the necessary ingredients in such a scenario.  „If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.“  And great, if nothing happens, have learnt loads and simply carry on with my great life!

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Why does averyone seem to fixate on the idea that "it will get worse"; it might or it might not.
True. Bad news is good news for some...

Quote
" Bet you'd consider eye of newt or tongue of bat over hula hoops! " No I wouldn't I don't believe in magic but I do believe in evidence. Food is known to help snake oil isn't.

In reality, we are not really talking about tongue of bat or eye of newt are we...were talking about such things that are, in some cases, not so far away from the medical community accepting as medicine, as descriped in the above list (and my recent post...2 stars, 3 stars etc.)

Quote
"Before they become desperate it would be nice if they had a few more realistic options, even if they have not being billion dollar tested." There are at least 3 antivirals used; one (amantidine) is a bit crap (but I'd choose it rather than eye of newt) and the third is largely being kept in reserve for exactly the reasons you talk about.


I agree would also start with the options you mentioned, but personally would not stop there...

Quote
Did you not realise that the people doing the planning can read wiki too? They have heard of resistance. Incidentally, do you know that plenty of drugs are based on botanicals?


I did realise, thankyou (Mmmm). Which is why I am considering grey borderline treatments to compliment conventional treatment...Of course there is a certain amount of risk, but the alternative looks pretty grim too..

Quote
It will be there along with things like comfrey - known as "knitbone" because of its supposed healing properties and actually found to be hepatotoxic and carcinogenic.


Dont know much about comfrey, but as I just said, the risks have to be indiviudally evaluated and on a personal basis accepted or not.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 06/08/2009 15:35:26
The stuff that doesn't work, or has been shown not to have any real effect, thats called complementary medicine, or maybe just plants.


Any real effect...even with some effect, perhaps it is better, for some people, than no effect at all.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 06/08/2009 15:43:31
I think the general issue with considering complementary therapies is to attempt to consider the mechanism through which it works. Setting aside placebo (which is an incredibly powerful effect), this should give you an indication of whether or not there's likely to be any as yet undiscovered physiological effect. By this regime, herbal treatment (which may well include beneficial chemicals) shows a great deal more promise than homeopathy, and one is forced to question things like acupuncture (from what I recall, the most recent studies showed acupuncture works just as well with blunt wooden needles). Not setting aside placebo, you're in a whole different ballpark...

The issue of time is a main crucial factor. Perhaps in another 10 years we will know the answers we need today, but unfortunately many pontential helpful grey area treatments may not have the necessary funding or testing to provide conclusive positive or negative results. In this case it will be highly likely that the medical community will be unable to promte the possiblity of use to the masses, leaving individuals to either take the risk themselves or to avoid the risk and not take them. The scenario produces a common dilemma; to take or not to take...
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/08/2009 18:35:12
The stuff that doesn't work, or has been shown not to have any real effect, thats called complementary medicine, or maybe just plants.


Any real effect...even with some effect, perhaps it is better, for some people, than no effect at all.
Any real effect is good- whether you consider that as a direct benefit or as an opening for the development of another drug (as with aspirin etc).
On the other hand most of these plants have no effect and are part of "alternative medicine"- or just flower arranging.

I know that some people will choose to "suplement" their conventional medicines with herbal "remedies".
Often that's just a waste of money; but it's their money so why should I care?
Well, the idea that people are being sold a bunch of pretty flowers on the  false grounds that it cures illness is straightforward fraud. It's all the worse for picking on a group who are already having a bad time becaus they are sick.

The other thing is that you really shouldn't mix drugs with other xenobiotics.

Are you aware of one noted side effect of St John's wort?

At least one woman has become pregnant as a result of the "remedy" messing with metabolism of the real (and important) drug in "the pill".
How sure are you that these "harmless herbal remedies" won't screw up the effects of really effective antivirals like tamiflu?
(I know there's room for improvement- but it does actually help).

Unless you can show that these potions are not actively counterproductive I don't think it's morrally correct to promote their use.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 07/08/2009 11:30:54
The Germans make Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, VW & Audi they are world renowned for quality practices, products and innovation. The German medical industry has within its portfolio a range of tested, medically licensed herbal remedies. 

Quote
Well, the idea that people are being sold a bunch of pretty flowers on the  false grounds that it cures illness is straightforward fraud

Perhaps a picture and some translation will help...
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_mxAVjs7oxig%2FSnv0Z_TcApI%2FAAAAAAAAChg%2F8Tf1WtNLKZ8%2Fs800%2FAufzeichnen.JPG&hash=7bc3f529cb85372d15c7cd8851c19f46)

This medicinal tea is called Cold & Flu. PZN 3761403.

Try and follow this!
This is a combination of Holunderblüten - Sambuci flos 40 g, Lindenblüten - Tiliae flos 30g, Thymian - Thymi herba 20g, Sonstige Bestandteile: Süßholzwurzel - Liquiritiae radix 5 g, Anis - Anisi fructus 5 g.
I am sure the mixture could also be used for flower arranging, but the medical community here might frown up it!

It has a PZN number. What is a PZN number?
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmazentralnummer
"Die Pharmazentralnummer (PZN) ist ein in Deutschland bundeseinheitlicher Identifikationsschlüssel für Arzneimittel und andere Apothekenprodukte."  Sorry but Wiki has no English translation at the moment. Translated by Google.
The Pharma central number (PZN) in Germany is a federal identification key for medicines and other pharmacy products. A key word here is Arzneimittel or translated "medicine", see...
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzneimittel, then click on the English Wiki translation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug,
Thats right!  A combination of herbs, in water, sipped is considered a form of licensed medicine. With Ryanair, your here in a hour!

In the picture above, the first graphic is of a syringe "Schulmedizin" (Conventional), underneath "Alternativmedizin" (Complementary or Alternative). The reference point is in the middle in between Conventional and Alternative, it gets the respect of the medicinal community as it considered to have medicinal properties and is tested and licensed. Perhaps it could be called "complementary". [;)]

The next graphic is a picture of a pill and the word "Arznei", as we know now it means "Drug".

The last graphic is a plant, and means from plants.

It is produced until license by H&S Tee.
For 20x bags it costs 2,19 euros, thats 1.88 ukp.

That is one product from a range of perhaps 20 medicinal licensend medicinally herbal blends in Mercedes country!

Quote
...the idea that people are being sold a bunch of pretty flowers on the  false grounds that it cures illness is straightforward fraud.

Either your lack of knowledge or experience regarding herbs and their ability to heal, is very limited, or you just want to put your head back in the sand, and hope that it will all go away.

Quote
The other thing is that you really shouldn't mix drugs with other xenobiotics.
According to "Maria Treben: http://www.mariatrebenherbs.com/" it's fine (in most situations). A qualified herbal practitioner can advise, as is the advice given.

Quote
Are you aware of one noted side effect of St John's wort?
Are you aware of the noted side effects of Tamiflu, Relenza et al?
Of course there are exceptions and risks that need to be considered and explained, but side effects are part of medicine.
Quote
one woman has become pregnant as a result of the "remedy" messing with metabolism
...sounds like the start of a Daily Mirror story! Come on!

Quote
How sure are you that these "harmless herbal remedies" won't screw up the effects of really effective antivirals like tamiflu?

The German medical community seems to think that Cold and Flu Tea (et al.) is safe and has tested benefits to help releive Flu and other ailments, who am I, a Simplton, to argue? As to whether it will alter the effects of Tamiflu, DON'T KNOW, but don't think so! And you know what mate...

If I was lying in bed with potentially only 4-5 days to live and it was possible that a blend of medicinal licensed HERBS could help me through those 5 days, I have to say, I think I would use them, wouldn't everyone? I mean if a mutated anti-viral resistant virus is going to get me anyway, then might as well go down fighting...

Quote
Unless you can show that these potions are not actively counterproductive I don't think it's morrally correct to promote their use.
I reckon the German and Austrian medicinal & herbalist community could prove that their MEDICINE (not witch crafted potions, which time are you living in?) is not actively counter-productive...I can't personally, but I am not personally prescribing or recommending, just counter arguing.

Hope that clears up some of the myths in the UK about herbs and combining herbs for medicinal purposes.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: BenV on 07/08/2009 11:44:56
Be careful, this thread is starting to look like spam.

Quote
Hope that clears up some of the myths in the UK about herbs and combining herbs for medicinal purposes.
Nope.  All you've done is said that you can get herbal tea in Germany that claims to help against colds and flu.  You can get herbal tea pretty much anywhere, but that doesn't mean anything about it's effectiveness or how it interacts with other chemicals.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Variola on 07/08/2009 12:17:36
Quote
Either your lack of knowledge or experience regarding herbs and their ability to heal, is very limited, or you just want to put your head back in the sand, and hope that it will all go away.

People have died because of alternative/eastern medicine practitioners persuading them to refuse conventional medicine. Some have often paid thousand and thousands of pounds to be treated with plants and conned into believing that it will beat their cancer.
That is plain outrageous, and I feel very strongly about it.
You are ignoring the very fact that the whole industry is unlicensed and unregulated.

Quote
..sounds like the start of a Daily Mirror story! Come on!


The contraceptive pill packets now coming with a warning not to take St Johns wort due to the effects it has on the hormonal balance and the pill.
I have yet to see a similar warning on packets of St Johns wort.

If you want to promote the virtues of herbal remedies then go ahead, but get your facts straight first.
Also explain how these remedies can be of so much of a benefit when advice difference wildy from one practitioner to another, and how, if these things are so great, can someone set themselves up as a herbalist/homeopath with no formal training or qualifications? Oh yes I know there are some available, but people don't have to have them.Unlike doctors, microbiologists, biochemists etc who train for years only to be told by some plant lovers that they are depriving ill people and that we are all 'scared'!!
I means, FFS!  [::)]


Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 07/08/2009 13:09:46
Be careful, this thread is starting to look like spam.

Quote
Hope that clears up some of the myths in the UK about herbs and combining herbs for medicinal purposes.
Nope.  All you've done is said that you can get herbal tea in Germany that claims to help against colds and flu.  You can get herbal tea pretty much anywhere, but that doesn't mean anything about it's effectiveness or how it interacts with other chemicals.

Spam? Thanks! Actually I would call it intelligent argument, but I am biased!
Quote
you can get herbal tea in Germany
Quote
You are ignoring the very fact that the whole industry is unlicensed and unregulated.
I think it was more than 'herbal tea'...if you read my article, I am talking about LICENSED MEDICINAL HERBAL BLENDS with a medicinal PZN, not quite the same as a general herbal tea. As with other medicines you dont get the stamp without the testing, trials etc etc. Why is it so hard to accept that these products have been tested and have been shown to be of benefit. Its hard facts (according to the Germans)...

Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: BenV on 07/08/2009 13:43:04
Spam? Thanks! Actually I would call it intelligent argument, but I am biased!

Not a compliment, I'm afraid - the links to websites and detailed product details make it look like you're selling things.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Variola on 07/08/2009 13:54:54
Spam? Thanks! Actually I would call it intelligent argument, but I am biased!

Not a compliment, I'm afraid - the links to websites and detailed product details make it look like you're selling things.

Indeed. Why else would the poster persist in trying to push the alternative remedy when the original post was apparently a curious one?
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 07/08/2009 14:07:21
Either your lack of knowledge or experience regarding herbs and their ability to heal, is very limited, or you just want to put your head back in the sand, and hope that it will all go away.

Quote
People have died because of alternative/eastern medicine practitioners persuading them to refuse conventional medicine. Some have often paid thousand and thousands of pounds to be treated with plants and conned into believing that it will beat their cancer.
That is plain outrageous, and I feel very strongly about it.
You are ignoring the very fact that the whole industry is unlicensed and unregulated.

I have never put conventional medicine down. I support conventional medicine. There I have said it, again. I have spent most of time on this post defending complimentary medicine, not attacking conventional medicine. Do you really want to talk about how many peoples lives have been adversely affect from conventional medicinal mistakes. I don't think we want to go there... But yes people will have died in the pursuit to help others. That's true. Every death is sad, regardless of their chosen treatment.

"Unlicensed and Unregulated" in the UK perhaps. Not in Germany & Austria.
If I interprit your meaning, it would seem that you are saying that licensed German medicinal herbal blends are also not worth the paper they are packed in... Isn't that just a little bit arrogant...perhaps...

Quote
..sounds like the start of a Daily Mirror story! Come on!


Quote
The contraceptive pill packets now coming with a warning not to take St Johns wort due to the effects it has on the hormonal balance and the pill.
I have yet to see a similar warning on packets of St Johns wort.

Totally agree. Think that it should be contained on all packings in big bold letters, if that is now fact, and in time, I am sure it will be included and revised, the sooner the better. For all the other people on the planet who are not using the pill, St.Johns Wort has been shown to have medicinal benefits for a variety of ailments.

Quote
If you want to promote the virtues of herbal remedies then go ahead, but get your facts straight first.
Also explain how these remedies can be of so much of a benefit when advice difference wildy from one practitioner to another, and how, if these things are so great, can someone set themselves up as a herbalist/homeopath with no formal training or qualifications? Oh yes I know there are some available, but people don't have to have them.Unlike doctors, microbiologists, biochemists etc who train for years only to be told by some plant lovers that they are depriving ill people and that we are all 'scared'!!
I means, FFS!  [::)]

Actually what I want to say is, I feel it is OK to consider complimenting conventional medicine with herbs, plant, roots, foods or fruits supported by qualified professionals with the aim of improving medical conditions. Especially in RELATION to the current world situation with H1N1 and H5N1.

Not sure how the Herbalist/Homeopath qualification system exactly works in the UK (its a while since I lived there), but over here its a lengthy process similar to the education requirements to become a conventional doctor, depending on the field and level of study. If the UK just stamps the qualification, then I think a review of the system needs to happen. That is very wrong.

As someone earlier said, many medicines do derive from plants. So I guess in a way even the hard-line extremists are plant lovers too.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 07/08/2009 14:10:59
Spam? Thanks! Actually I would call it intelligent argument, but I am biased!

Not a compliment, I'm afraid - the links to websites and detailed product details make it look like you're selling things.

NOT SELLING ANYTHING - No connection to any products, no commissions, just using to illustrate a point. What more can I say. In Germany I think there are 4 or 5 companies who have license to produce such blends, I chose this one at random.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 07/08/2009 14:16:42
Spam? Thanks! Actually I would call it intelligent argument, but I am biased!

Not a compliment, I'm afraid - the links to websites and detailed product details make it look like you're selling things.

Indeed. Why else would the poster persist in trying to push the alternative remedy when the original post was apparently a curious one?

The original post wanted and still wants help to develop a personal complimentary first aid kit (to include conventional medicine) to help against a potential mutated form of flu that may be arriving here, where I live, in the coming months. I personally think that is a good reason to ask Cambridge University scientific/medical forum members for their opinion. No-one until this point has anything good to say about herbs, roots, fruits etc. Shame really, as there really are some very intelligent people commenting within this forum. Perhaps I came through the wrong door... Left - Conventional medicine, Right - All others...

Also just noticed. I did NOT include any link to any website selling anything, only links to Wiki. Hope you are all satisfied on that point now.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: BenV on 07/08/2009 14:30:13
No-one until this point has anything good to say about herbs, roots, fruits etc. Shame really, as there really are some very intelligent people commenting within this forum. Perhaps I came through the wrong door... Left - Conventional medicine, Right - All others...
I wouldn't say that's true - we've acknowledged that many conventional medicines are derived from botanicals, but expressed a healthy concern as to the promotion of unquantified, untested (officially) 'folk' remedies.

I'm not sure how these things are promoted in Germany - maybe that's the root of our concern - I've seen herbal teas advertised as a cure for HIV/AIDS, and that's very worrying.

I'd be interested to hear more about the regulation of the industry in Germany - do you know what one would have to do to get a PZN number for a product?  What are the regulations on complementary therapies there?  What tests do they need to pass? What qualifications does one need to be a therapist?

I'm a little confused by the way you mention homeopathy/homeopaths alongside herbalism - surely they're an entirely different kettle of fish?
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 07/08/2009 14:48:20
No-one until this point has anything good to say about herbs, roots, fruits etc. Shame really, as there really are some very intelligent people commenting within this forum. Perhaps I came through the wrong door... Left - Conventional medicine, Right - All others...

Quote
I wouldn't say that's true - we've acknowledged that many conventional medicines are derived from botanicals, but expressed a healthy concern as to the promotion of unquantified, untested (officially) 'folk' remedies.

Potions, folk remedies and so the adjectives go on throughout the comments. In General it has been a hard battle staying on my original theme...I think also there is a need for a health concern. That is why I am asking you (the forum).

Quote
I'm not sure how these things are promoted in Germany - maybe that's the root of our concern - I've seen herbal teas advertised as a cure for HIV/AIDS, and that's very worrying.

They are not really promoted as such, especially not on TV, they are just available, have been for a long time. They are available from chemists and specialised licensed distributors. Of course in every industry, especially health, you get rogues saying everything will work just to sell the product, that is very wrong and dangerous. This is not the same. This is the republic of Germany standing there saying we consider this blend of medicinal herbs to be of benefit and we will even licence according to conventional medicine testing, therefore they get the PZN.

Quote
I'd be interested to hear more about the regulation of the industry in Germany - do you know what one would have to do to get a PZN number for a product?  What are the regulations on complementary therapies there?  What tests do they need to pass? What qualifications does one need to be a therapist?

I did do some research on this some years ago. Will take a bit of time to dig out, but let me have look. It is an interesting subject, the differences between the UK & the German systems.

Quote
I'm a little confused by the way you mention homeopathy/homeopaths alongside herbalism - surely they're an entirely different kettle of fish?

I did not put those two together, I lifted it from a comment. It was a quote from Variola Today at 12:17:36...

Quote
...can someone set themselves up as a herbalist/homeopath with no formal training or qualifications?
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 07/08/2009 15:08:31
To BenV...

PZN. The Wiki article contains good info, only German though. Lifted and translated with Google, got the basic jist. Also PDF's to read/translate. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmazentralnummer. This is a document detailing how to use PZN.

http://www.ifaffm.de/ - worth a study. (Translated by Google)
"We are information providers for the pharmaceutical market. We produce information with economic and legal information on nationwide products available in pharmacies.

With us you are right ...
... if you are a manufacturer or distributor of goods through pharmacies or the pharmaceutical wholesale sell or want to sell.
... If you are pharmaceutical wholesalers.
... if you have data on other drugs, dressings or other pharmaceutical products need or as a software provider to resell"

http://www.ifaffm.de/leistungen/_index.html (Translated by Google)
"Conditions for the inclusion of Article Data
in the IFA Information
The IFA will be information for a particular target market in the pharmaceutical and healthcare created: pharmacies, pharmaceutical wholesalers, doctors, health insurance, etc. The articles and their suppliers are therefore specific to the needs of this group corresponding user requirements. This will ensure that all legal conditions for the placing of the articles are given. There are also requirements for the identification and relevance of the article.

Contract with the IFA GmbH - Initial condition for the reception of data is an article about our service contract maintenance and publication of product data.

Distribution Rights - The provider has all the legal and factual conditions for the placing of his name registered under Article fulfill.

Apothekenüblichkeit - only medicines and other pharmaceutical products pursuant to Section 25 of Pharmacy rules. In doubtful cases, the proof of Apothekenüblichkeit through a legally binding opinion of the competent supervisory authorities will be required.

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Consumer Units - In the IFA-only database of consumer units, ie forms of trade, without Auseinzeln be sold to consumers can be.

Exclusion criteria for articles
- Non-pharmaceutical products.
- Not generally negotiable item. Medicines in accordance with section 73 AMG imported.
- Level, individual and custom-made products and other items that are not finished products.
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- Articles that are already in the IFA database are not multiple choice."
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 08/08/2009 09:07:50
Interesting related article out of India today.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/18514/homeopathy-can-prevent-cure-swine.html
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Bored chemist on 08/08/2009 16:10:47


Either your lack of knowledge or experience regarding herbs and their ability to heal, is very limited, or you just want to put your head back in the sand, and hope that it will all go away.


 
Quote
one woman has become pregnant as a result of the "remedy" messing with metabolism
...sounds like the start of a Daily Mirror story! Come on!



Let me get this stright; you are not aware of the hazardous effect of one of the most widely used herbal medicines yet you accuse me of ignorance or sticking my head in the sand.


Do you want to think a bit harder about that?
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 08/08/2009 21:47:28
Ahh, the bored chemist, I missed your comments...

I thought a bit harder about it, really I did..................but it did not help.

I then checked Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_John's_wort), funnily enough, they did not mention anything under "Adverse effects and drug interactions" about this ONE person on the pill having a reaction to St.Johns Wort, perhaps Wiki should also think a bit harder about that. 

I accept, I personally did not know this (recent) information (burn me at the stake why don't you)... and as I clearly stated in a previous posting, it is wrong and should be changed as soon as possible.

In my defence, I am not a herbalist, I am not a doctor (or a smart-arsed "bored chemist"), I am a Simpleton looking for a way to protect myself and family in a time when then world is searching beyond conventional medicine for complimentary solutions to a problem that conventional medicine has 3 solutions (one of which is a bit CRAP) -
Quote
There are at least 3 antivirals used; one (amantidine) is a bit crap
,one drug is almost virus resistant, and the final one, who knows it's fate...

Is it really a wonder there are people like me asking for HELP?

Actually, what is more of a wonder to me, is that there are people, like you, looking to criticise, ridicule and add worthless petty argument to such an important topic, in order to satisfy some apparent intrinsic desire to appear worthy and intelligent before peers and onlookers...get a grip mate, its not clever and you ain't gonna win any new friends.

I mean lets look at it in a basic, honest way... what is the advice from the highest sources of medical knowledge in the UK?  The medical community says... stay in bed, take an asprin or 2, drink fluids and take a drug that is, by the day becoming less and less effective AND has unknown long-term side effects. GREAT! With the final advise being...Sorry everyone, that's it, we can't advise further and remember, please don't visit your doctor, unless you stop breathing, then call 999. Finally, don't forget, if you or your family members die, we really did give it our best shot and advised you on all the possible remedies, honestly.

Tut-tut.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: BenV on 08/08/2009 23:12:39
Interesting related article out of India today.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/18514/homeopathy-can-prevent-cure-swine.html

I think you missed an enormous point in that article - It's even given in the headline

"Homeopathy can prevent, cure swine flu, say homeopaths"

As far as I am aware, there is no evidence that homeopathy works any better than placebo.  Furthermore, there's no reasonable mechanism through which it can work.  I'd stick to the herbs if I were you.

As we may have mentioned before, if it works for an individual, great - but promoting a product like this (and the alternative health industry is an enormous profit making industry) is risky.  Should someone decide to opt for homeopathic treatment rather than conventional treatment, the homeopaths could have blood on their hands.

I understand entirely that you are talking about complementary therapies being used in conjunction with conventional therapies - the problem is that some people will assess risks based on newspaper articles like this one.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: BenV on 08/08/2009 23:20:31
I mean lets look at it in a basic, honest way... what is the advice from the highest sources of medical knowledge in the UK?  The medical community says... stay in bed, take an asprin or 2, drink fluids and take a drug that is, by the day becoming less and less effective AND has unknown long-term side effects. GREAT! With the final advise being...Sorry everyone, that's it, we can't advise further and remember, please don't visit your doctor, unless you stop breathing, then call 999. Finally, don't forget, if you or your family members die, we really did give it our best shot and advised you on all the possible remedies, honestly.

Tut-tut.

I don't think you've been reading what we've said.  It is highly irresponsible for the medical community to recommend something that there is no evidence for.  It's even more irresponsible to sell a product claiming it will do things for which there is no evidence.

How would you feel if your doctor prescribes you sugar pills?  By promoting untested therapies, that's precisely what they're doing.  Plus, the herbal concoctions also have unknown long term side effects.

What this boils down to is chemicals.  Doctors advise on the chemicals which have been tested and shown to work.  Herbal remedies contain a vast number of chemicals, some may help, some may do nothing, some may be harmful.

If you want to take complementary medicines, go ahead!  But why do you feel it's the medical industry's responsibility to advise others to do so?

Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: BenV on 08/08/2009 23:22:54
Actually, what is more of a wonder to me, is that there are people, like you, looking to criticise, ridicule and add worthless petty argument to such an important topic, in order to satisfy some apparent intrinsic desire to appear worthy and intelligent before peers and onlookers...get a grip mate, its not clever and you ain't gonna win any new friends.

And finally, with my moderators hat on - please do not be so rude about other forum members.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 09/08/2009 08:25:48
Hi BenV,

Will add replies to your comments shortly.

Also, apologies for losing my temper with another forum member.
Will try to bite my tongue in the future and be less descriptive.

Regards
Simpleton
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 09/08/2009 08:44:50
Have just seen a video (06.08.2009), courtesy of Reuters, discussing Chinese claims about herbal medicines in combination with conventional medicine. From a limited study, it is reported that the Chinese medicinal herb blends were as effective as Tamiflu and much cheaper!

http://info-wars.org/?p=4649

It seems to me, that resistance to complimentary medicine is not the same across the world. Why?
Either it works, has an effect, helps or it doesn't (as has been said before).
Are countries who are more in favour, hiding scientific information that could help other countries get things in better perspective? Have tests been done that others in other countries don't know about?

The Germans, with their licensed medicinal blends of herbs, the Indians using Homoeopathy, the Chinese using their combinations effectively... Who is right, who is wrong, and when can I start to confidently build my personal complementary first aid kit against the oncoming wave on Pandemic Influenza?
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 09/08/2009 09:02:42
Quote
I think you missed an enormous point in that article - It's even given in the headline

"Homeopathy can prevent, cure swine flu, say homeopaths"

Yep, that is a good point. Well spotted!

Quote
As far as I am aware, there is no evidence that homeopathy works any better than placebo.  Furthermore, there's no reasonable mechanism through which it can work.  I'd stick to the herbs if I were you.

I don't know much about how homoeopathy works and only recently included it in posts as a result of a comment made including it with herbalism. I am more personally more interested in herbs, roots, fruits and blends of such complementary medicines.

Quote
As we may have mentioned before, if it works for an individual, great - but promoting a product like this (and the alternative health industry is an enormous profit making industry) is risky.  Should someone decide to opt for homeopathic treatment rather than conventional treatment, the homeopaths could have blood on their hands.

I think the word 'enormous' should be referenced to the Phara industry...
I would also suggest that conventional medicine has its share of blood on its hands...

Quote
I understand entirely that you are talking about complementary therapies being used in conjunction with conventional therapies - the problem is that some people will assess risks based on newspaper articles like this one.

So, for the sake of 'some' people, we should not even consider these possible therapies, even in this dramatic escalating situation...? Perhaps we simply need to educate the 'some' people better.

Thanks for your positive approach to my comments, it is appreciated.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 09/08/2009 09:33:15
Quote
I don't think you've been reading what we've said.  It is highly irresponsible for the medical community to recommend something that there is no evidence for.  It's even more irresponsible to sell a product claiming it will do things for which there is no evidence.

Oh, I have been reading very carefully what has been said (from the WE?). I would agree it would be highly irresponsible for the medical community to recommend something that there is no evidence for, further-more I agree it is even more irresponsible to sell a product claiming it will do things for which there is no evidence. Shameful, in-fact. 

But there is evidence, there have been trials, testing has been observed for 1000's of years, benefits are known, patients have been helped, its not all rogues and villains on the other side. Civilisations differ around the world. they have different opinions to you (WE). Perhaps it is more of a case that here is not really the right place to be discussing such controversial subjects? I can understand that.

I seem to have landed in a big UK grey area. I want Relenza in my first aid kit, but I want some herbs, tinctures and fruits too. That is causing the problem (not for me personally), but for openly saying it here. I cannot really imagine that someone on this forum is going to say... I  would advise, this, this, this and this from the complementary medicine range... From the onset take this in conjunction with this, monitor this, after day 2, increase to this and reduce this... etc. etc. Bit frustrating, but at the same time I am learning a lot, so it has it's benefits, I hope for others too.

Quote
How would you feel if your doctor prescribes you sugar pills?  By promoting untested therapies, that's precisely what they're doing.  Plus, the herbal concoctions also have unknown long term side effects.

Aside, My daughter has received, when ill, sugar pills with drops of medicine from her local doctor (in Germany) since being here. (Globuli; http://www.globuli.de/). Conventional medicine's long term side effects are also renowned! But it's another long story!

Quote
What this boils down to is chemicals.  Doctors advise on the chemicals which have been tested and shown to work.  Herbal remedies contain a vast number of chemicals, some may help, some may do nothing, some may be harmful.

This makes sense. Thanks.
Only that some herbal remedies, without specific scientific testing, or testing that does not comply to western medicine, or unknown testing, do work in practice. As a result the grey area of medicine exists.

Quote
If you want to take complementary medicines, go ahead!  But why do you feel it's the medical industry's responsibility to advise others to do so?

Normally, I would not stick my neck out so far, really, but if the current flu situation follows any of its historical ancestors, then I feel it is the medical industries responsibility to merge its hard line approach and help in the quest to support immune systems before it becomes a real disaster.  AND... what better opportunity to test out a variety of approaches on a world wide population in the midst of a pandemic; its like, the test of all tests.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 09/08/2009 09:38:21
Final thought for today, as I do have to get on...

The other possibility is... have the vaccine (if offered and available), then you don't even get the flu in the first place! Great. Or not.

Question: Should I take the planned new H1N1 vaccine, should I advise my family to take it?

Perhaps it is a good question for a poll?  My last poll was quite unsuccessful, but will perhaps try again.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Bored chemist on 09/08/2009 11:36:51
Simpleton,
you say " I want Relenza in my first aid kit, but I want some herbs, tinctures and fruits too".
Why?
Do you have any evidence that any of them will help?
Which ones will you choose and on what basis would you chose them?
If it's not on the basis of empirical evidence then your thoughts on the matter are unscientific. If you repeatedly post unscientific claptrap on a science forum you can expect to be ridiculed.

If you also choose to insult the people who point out the problems with your ideas then, to say the least, it hardly supports your case.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 09/08/2009 11:58:28
Hi, thanks for the comment.

Quote
Simpleton,
you say " I want Relenza in my first aid kit, but I want some herbs, tinctures and fruits too".
Why?

Relenza, as I fear that Tamiflu will soon become ineffective, leaving only side effects.

Quote
Do you have any evidence that any of them will help?

Yes. Historically and traditional, when not scientifically (from other countries' methods and practices).
It would be interesting, for example, to here from some German, Chinese or Australian Medicinal Herbalists on the subject.

Quote
Which ones will you choose and on what basis would you chose them?
Great question.  That was, in essence my original question in the first post... that is what I am hoping to qualify on this journey... ahh, a ray of light.

Quote
If it's not on the basis of empirical evidence then your thoughts on the matter are unscientific. If you repeatedly post unscientific claptrap on a science forum you can expect to be ridiculed.

1. Perhaps.
2. My shoulders are broad, and anyway I'm getting into the swing of it now. Constructive criticism is also positive.

Quote
If you also choose to insult the people who point out the problems with your ideas then, to say the least, it hardly supports your case.

I did apologise to BenV, and I would also like to apologise to you. Uncalled for...Sorry...
Please be assured, I do value your opinion and will try to behave better in the future.

My apology refers to this...
Quote
Actually, what is more of a wonder to me, is that there are people, like you, looking to criticise, ridicule and add worthless petty argument to such an important topic, in order to satisfy some apparent intrinsic desire to appear worthy and intelligent before peers and onlookers...get a grip mate, its not clever and you ain't gonna win any new friends.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Variola on 09/08/2009 18:27:34
Quote
The other possibility is... have the vaccine (if offered and available), then you don't even get the flu in the first place! Great. Or not.


Quote
The other possibility is... have the vaccine (if offered and available), then you don't even get the flu in the first place! Great. Or not.

????

Of course you get the 'flu, thats how vaccines work.
What you don't get is the full blown disease.

Quote
I mean lets look at it in a basic, honest way... what is the advice from the highest sources of medical knowledge in the UK?  The medical community says... stay in bed, take an asprin or 2, drink fluids and take a drug that is, by the day becoming less and less effective AND has unknown long-term side effects. GREAT! With the final advise being...Sorry everyone, that's it, we can't advise further and remember, please don't visit your doctor, unless you stop breathing, then call 999. Finally, don't forget, if you or your family members die, we really did give it our best shot and advised you on all the possible remedies, honestly.


What exactly do you expect the medical community to do? Doctors are not Gods ( although some think they are!)
This is what irks me about people, they expect conventional, actually lets drop the word conventional, medicine to be able to cure something hey presto.
What do you think it is, magic?? (Rhet)
 If you go to the doctor with an ailment, you expect pills creams or potions to put it right, and if you dont get anything, people complain. Well tough titty. Medicine does not have all the answers, in fact when it comes to the human body we don't know anywhere near enough. The centuries of research into the biology of the body, and the distance we have come so far is proof of how beautifully complex it really is.
Personally I am always in awe of how stripped down and lean viruses are, and how they sneak in and out of cells, performing a coup de'tat on the way. Our immune system is well-honed to beat this, but Influenza A doesn't give in without a fight! The result being we either feel really crap for a while, or if unlucky we develop a complication and die.
Well, that is life, That is what happens in life and as yet we don't have an amazing wonder drug to combat it. We have the anti-virals, and we have the anti-microbials to combat any secondary infections,and the physiological support, but that really is about it.
The sooner people realise that the better and stop expecting medicine to have the answers for everything and criticise when it doesn't.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 09/08/2009 22:20:43
Thanks for the reply.

Quote
The other possibility is... have the vaccine (if offered and available), then you don't even get the flu in the first place! Great. Or not.

Quote
????

Quote
Of course you get the 'flu, thats how vaccines work.
What you don't get is the full blown disease.

I think I should have written "you don't even get the FULL BLOWN flu, OR DIE in the first place... Better?
Actually, vaccines are made using viruses that are either dead or severely damaged so that they can not reproduce. (Wiki).

Quote
I mean lets look at it in a basic, honest way... what is the advice from the highest sources of medical knowledge in the UK?  The medical community says... stay in bed, take an asprin or 2, drink fluids and take a drug that is, by the day becoming less and less effective AND has unknown long-term side effects. GREAT! With the final advise being...Sorry everyone, that's it, we can't advise further and remember, please don't visit your doctor, unless you stop breathing, then call 999. Finally, don't forget, if you or your family members die, we really did give it our best shot and advised you on all the possible remedies, honestly.


Quote
What exactly do you expect the medical community to do? Doctors are not Gods ( although some think they are!)

Doctors are exceptional individuals, no doubt. They dedicate their lives to helping others. What worthier cause can a human being undertake? However, Doctors, from all communities, to some extent, are constricted to where in the world they studied, what they studied, their morals and to some degree their beliefs and religion persuasion. Doctors have existed since...who knows, since mankind had illness. What I expect the medical community to do, from every aspect of its core, is to continue in the original pursuit, that being, to help others and to improve the health of humankind.

I believe in humankind's kindness and unconditional love for each other and their surroundings; even if sometimes, as in today's modern world, it doesn't always appear that way. I think that when things get tough, really tough, humans rally around each other in support. To some extent, perhaps I am a ideologist, that may be true, but I learn so much by provoking thought in others, to question what is engraved in stone, it adds to a bigger picture.

"The whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts." 1+1=3. 

Lets suppose that the first "1" is conventional medicine. The second "1" is complementary... together it produces more worth than when working alone.

After that little aside, and returning to the point, I think the time is arriving, swiftly, when much more interaction and cooperation between various disciplines of medicine should be sought.

Quote
This is what irks me about people, they expect conventional, actually lets drop the word conventional, medicine to be able to cure something hey presto.

Hey Presto????  This is the 4th outbreak of this kind this century! Mankind will be soon wandering around on Mars but we have still no great plan to deal with this common pesky virus that keeps appearing every 30 or 40 years! Did we just hope it would not turn up again? What have we learned about this situation in the past 100 years. Which disciplines of medicine throughout history proved that their methods actually worked against it, lets hear what they have to say, lets work together testing various disciplines for the common good of all. Throw away attachments to core beliefs from inflexible disciplines and let the mind free for a moment. I am not talking about a handful of hippies preaching about the wonders of oak bark, I am referring to world medicinal belief systems. How different is the Chinese medical approach to that of the western medicine, in comparison to the Indian and African, not to forget South American. Each community has doctors, people who are dedicated to helping others. It's about time some of the walls came down.

Quote
What do you think it is, magic?? (Rhet)
No, it's nature and it is quite magical.

Quote
If you go to the doctor with an ailment, you expect pills creams or potions to put it right, and if you dont get anything, people complain. Well tough titty.

That's a bit hard...we do get something, Tamiflu and Relenza, Asprin, hand wash spray etc. And they have been helping, thank god!

Quote
Medicine does not have all the answers,

(1+1=3), Certainly not one discipline alone...

Quote
in fact when it comes to the human body we don't know anywhere near enough. The centuries of research into the biology of the body, and the distance we have come so far is proof of how beautifully complex it really is.

Really like that and so very true.

Quote
Personally I am always in awe of how stripped down and lean viruses are, and how they sneak in and out of cells, performing a coup de'tat on the way. Our immune system is well-honed to beat this, but Influenza A doesn't give in without a fight!

Totally agree, a wonder. But would actually like to remain in awe of them a bit longer...I am not that in awe! That's why I am fighting...here now, fighting with words to gather opinions to get conversation started to speed up the process a little bit.

Quote
The result being we either feel really crap for a while, or if unlucky we develop a complication and die.


Agree, but why limit yourself to one part of the whole especially in times of a world CRISIS, that I don't really understand.

Quote
Well, that is life, That is what happens in life and as yet we don't have an amazing wonder drug to combat it. We have the anti-virals, and we have the anti-microbials to combat any secondary infections,and the physiological support, but that really is about it. The sooner people realise that the better and stop expecting medicine to have the answers for everything and criticise when it doesn't.

Perhaps it already exists your "wonder drug" (cure), for sure it already exists, why wouldn't it. Is it not our challenge to find out how to overcome this problem, together? We will, you know, its just a question of when and how.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Variola on 09/08/2009 23:04:48
Quote
I think I should have written "you don't even get the FULL BLOWN flu, OR DIE in the first place... Better?
Actually, vaccines are made using viruses that are either dead or severely damaged so that they can not reproduce. (Wiki).

Ahh I did wonder what you meant...hence the ???
Thanks for the wiki quote but I am reasonably well versed with vaccines.

Quote
After that little aside, and returning to the point, I think the time is arriving, swiftly, when much more interaction and cooperation between various disciplines of medicine should be sought.

Which interactions as with whom?? Medicine, in my definition does not include complementary therapies.

For complementary therapies to be taken as a useful part of medicine, then some regulation, order and scientific evidence needs to be provided. It has to go under the same stringent regulation that medicine does.

Quote
Hey Presto????  This is the 4th outbreak of this kind this century! Mankind will be soon wandering around on Mars but we have still no great plan to deal with this common pesky virus that keeps appearing every 30 or 40 years! Did we just hope it would not turn up again?

Actually Influenza A does turn up more commonly than that, it doesn't just turn up whenever it feels like it. It is usually present in some form in the human/porcine population. Its only when it mutates and shows signs of being more pathogenic that we go into overdrive. We always knew it would turn up again, in fact ever since 1918 we have been on the verge of neurotic waiting,you only have to look back at governmental behavior each time a 'new' 'flu virus has appeared.




 
Quote
What have we learned about this situation in the past 100 years. Which disciplines of medicine throughout history proved that their methods actually worked against it, lets hear what they have to say, lets work together testing various disciplines for the common good of all.

That will be microbiology and biochemistry then.( big blanket encompassing lots of different discliplines)
 Yes, it does work, we have anti-virals, they do work. Just not as well as we would like them to against this particular virus. That doesn't mean they don't work and they should not have been developed.
If you are talking about complementary therapies, we are still left with lack of ANY evidence that they do work on viruses.


 
Quote
Throw away attachments to core beliefs from inflexible disciplines and let the mind free for a moment. I am not talking about a handful of hippies preaching about the wonders of oak bark, I am referring to world medicinal belief systems. How different is the Chinese medical approach to that of the western medicine, in comparison to the Indian and African, not to forget South American. Each community has doctors, people who are dedicated to helping others. It's about time some of the walls came down.

It really isn't about entrenched beliefs, not these days. It is still about lack of scientific evidence, something duplicable, testable, not built on anecdotal evidence. its also about the lack of regulation too. If a handful of hippies could show me standard scientific evidence that oak bark had medicinal properties, I would embrace them.

Quote
Totally agree, a wonder. But would actually like to remain in awe of them a bit longer...I am not that in awe! That's why I am fighting...here now, fighting with words to gather opinions to get conversation started to speed up the process a little bit.

I will always remain in awe of them, its a healthy awe that keeps me interested, keeps me keen and keeps me thinking about them. All essential for what I want to do in life.
With respect, all you have done so far is show how different plants/herbs *might* be of use, and how different complementary therapies may use them.
Its boring, and I harp on about it, but so far no science.

Quote
Perhaps it already exists your "wonder drug" (cure), for sure it already exists, why wouldn't it. Is it not our challenge to find out how to overcome this problem, together? We will, you know, its just a question of when and how.

It may well do. But like medicine before, it will hopefully be discovered and then be developed tried and tested. It wont be a matter of nipping down to the local herbalist and asking what he recommends.
If you want science to take something seriously, then you have to speak its language.





Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/08/2009 19:02:25
"
"The whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts." 1+1=3. 

Lets suppose that the first "1" is conventional medicine. The second "1" is complementary... together it produces more worth than when working alone.
"
this is a science forum so you should realise that if you can't support that you should withdraw it.

anyway, look back to the original question; the title of the thread.
What complementary remedies are there for H1N1.
Well there are lots.
For example I might tell you that wearing your socks inside-out will stop you getting it.
I could make up lots more- or I could look up the ones that others have made up.

What would I gain from this?
There are two sorts of remedies- the ones that work and the ones that don't. The ones that don't get called alternative or complimentary.
Since they don't work; who cares what they are?

Do you realise that "modern" herbalists still base their work on things like
"Yarrow was a plant of Venus (this was odd, because most devil's herbs were plants of Saturn) and, as such, was frequently consulted where love matters were concerned. "
and
"Culpepper tells us that:
'Mercury has the dominion of this plant, and therefore to be sure it strengthens the brain.... It stays the hiccough, being boiled in wine, and but smelled unto being tied in a cloth. The seed is of more use than the leaves, and more effectual to digest raw and vicious humours, and is used in medicines that serve to expel wind, and the pains proceeding therefrom...."


Do you really think that such trash based on astrology is worth reading, never mind using as the basis of medicine?

There are no doubt real medical uses for some herbs; I have mentioned a few.
There are also real side effects associated with herbs. No shock there- the difference between a drug and a poison is just the dose.
The problem is that there's a lot of rubbish talked about herbs without any basis in fact; they just claim "the ancients said it was right!".
Well the ancients didn't have a clue about how the body worked or about pharmacology. Most of them thought the Earth was the centre of the universe and that the stars were painted onto glass spheres.
Are they a reliable source?

Somehow I doubt many people reading this will think so.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 10/08/2009 20:43:28
Tamiflu is in the news today. Apparently it is causing more harm than the little if any good it is alleged to do.


From Tamiflu.com:     *  The #1 doctor-prescribed flu medicine for flu treatment*
    * Approved for adults and children aged 1 year and older
    * Must be taken within 12 to 48 hours from the first appearance of flu symptoms

From the National News:
Swine flu: Tamiflu 'reduces flu symptoms by just half a day'
Tamiflu reduces the length of flu symptoms by an average of only half a day, according to a new study.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/10/swine-flu-drugs-under-12s
Don't give swine flu drugs to under-12s, says study


Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 17/08/2009 07:52:32
Currently on holiday with limited internet access, will be picking up on this thread again soon...
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2009 19:16:53
No need to cut your holiday short to discuss this.
There's nothing new about the idea that you can put up with drugs that have more side effects if you are treating a more serious disease.
It turns out that swine flu is a bit of a wash-out so, for some groups of people, it might not be worth taking tamiflu. Nobody could have known that until the epidemic struck. The planning was based on a "worst case " idea and this outbreak is a long way from that.

Of course, exactly the same would be true for a herbal remedy.

Enjoy your holiday.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 21/08/2009 16:23:52
Complementary First Aid Kit for H1N1 (BETA)

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fschool.discoveryeducation.com%2Fclipart%2Fimages%2Ffirstaidkit4c.gif&hash=7aa37aa446353507df39e74baaf7ee9b)

My first aid kit for the virus (H1N1) is currently looking like this...I still have quite some research to do, especially in relation to compatibility with other items on the list and levels of dosage.  Any comments/help would be appreciated.

@Bored Chemist...
Quote
It turns out that swine flu is a bit of a wash-out

I DO hope that you are right, especially as the vaccine in Germany is being readied for dispatch in a number of weeks, the first mass vaccination for quite some time, actually 50 years, 50 million people...  http://english.cctv.com/program/worldwidewatch/20090820/111103.shtml (http://english.cctv.com/program/worldwidewatch/20090820/111103.shtml)

Quote
Complementary First Aid Kit for H1N1 (BETA)

-Schüssler Salts (3,4,8,11) - http://www.schuesslersalts.com/ (http://www.schuesslersalts.com/)
-Influcid Tablets - Homeopothy. More Info (http://www.12salts.com/product.sc?productId=16&categoryId=1)
-Swedish Bitters - Maria Treben (http://www.swedishbitters.com/story-of-swedish-bitters.html)
-Fern-leaved Biscuit-root (Lomatium dissectum) - Root if Possible and/or tincture
-White Tea (as part of fluid intake)
-Vitamin C - Toxic level (LD50), 11.9 grams per kilogram of body weight when taken orally. 6 grams of ascorbic acid were given to 29 infants, 93 children of preschool and school age, and 20 adults for more than 1400 days. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C)
-Black Elder berries
-Goji berries
-Sodium chlorite/MMS - More research
-Chorine dioxide - More research
-Vitamin D
-Garlic
-Relenza
-Tylenol and ibuprofen - more research
-Symmetrel & Flumadine - more research

Interesting Links:

Child Fever - http://healthmad.com/home-health/how-to-bring-a-fever-down-naturally/

Reduce Fever - http://healthmad.com/home-health/how-to-reduce-a-fever/

Notes:

Therefore, aspirin-containing remedies should not be given to children under 15 except on the advice of a doctor.

There are, however, a number of specific anti-influenza agents available on prescription. These include amantadine (Symmetrel) and rimantadine (Flumadine) which work by preventing the virus from shedding its coat inside cells, stopping it from multiplying. These agents can be used to protect at-risk individuals from infections, and are also able to offer limited benefit to sufferers if started within 48 hours of infection. They are, however, only active against influenza A.

It looks like increasing vitamin D intake and adding beta glucan supplements to your diet should decrease your chances of catching any flu. If you do get sick a combination of a COX-2 inhibitor in combination with a H1 Blocker: Benadryl, Claritin or Zyrtec and a H2 Blocker: Tagamet (Cimetidine), Zantac (Ranitidine), or Pepcid (Famotadine) should effectively stop the cytokine storm and the resulting lung damage. Statin drugs seem to stop the cytokine storm also, but I'm uncertain of their mechanism.

Research by; © 2009 Simpleton.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Variola on 21/08/2009 17:08:22
Quote
beta glucan supplements to your diet should decrease your chances of catching any flu.

The affects of beta glucan in its ability to boost the immune system is still questionable.

Quote
If you do get sick a combination of a COX-2 inhibitor in combination with a H1 Blocker: Benadryl, Claritin or Zyrtec and a H2 Blocker: Tagamet (Cimetidine), Zantac (Ranitidine), or Pepcid (Famotadine) should effectively stop the cytokine storm and the resulting lung damage. Statin drugs seem to stop the cytokine storm also, but I'm uncertain of their mechanism.

So Ibuprofen and a good indigestion remedy?! (not for asthmatics obviously)
Statins would have too many negative side affects to warrant use.


However its still interesting research Simpleton.


Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 21/08/2009 17:19:29
Thank you for your reply, really appreciated.

Will continue work developing each item on the list. As always I will try to remain as impartial as possible.
Thanks for the support.

Quote
The affects of beta glucan in its ability to boost the immune system is still questionable.
Need to do more research...agreed.

Quote
So Ibuprofen and a good indigestion remedy?! (not for asthmatics obviously)
Which is not good for Asthmatics?

Quote
indigestion remedy
Pineapple juice blended with peppermint tea and a small quantity of cinnamon could be a very good remedy for indigestion.

Quote
Statins would have too many negative side affects to warrant use.
Need to do more research...agreed.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: rosy on 21/08/2009 17:51:02
Ibuprofen!
Some asthmatics react badly to ibuprofen, asprin or both.

In general, Simpleton, whilst what you're trying to do is in some respects admirable I never the less find it a bit worrying. If something has a curative/protective effect it follows that that effect must be the result of a physiological effect on the body. Anything with effects has side-effects, and whilst deciding to eat a bit more fruit and veg, or even add a little cinnamon to your morning toast, isn't likely to hurt anyone (fruit, veg and cinnamon being things routinely consumed by people in day to day life and so unlikely to cause any very significant negative effect, or it would have been noticed already), I'd want to ask (ideally) an immunologist some pretty searching questions about the likely effects of dosing myself up on anti-histamines before I did so.

I am not entirely comfortable with the idea that someone who doesn't know that ibuprofen is a drug people with asthma are advised to take only under medical advice* is in effect using this forum to publish a list of drugs with the suggestion that people should take them if they contract 'flu, because however much you emphasise that you are only looking for information the above list does look like a suggestion to others.

* No offence meant here... I didn't know about this until a couple of years ago.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Variola on 21/08/2009 18:11:19
Quote
Which is not good for Asthmatics?

As Rosy has pointed out, Ibuprofen, which is one of the most common Cox 2 inhibitors is not good for asthmatics due to it increasing the action/number of leukotrienes. Not all asthmatics are affected by it, I know I am sensitive as I already take a leukotrine blocker.
Zantac (ranatidine) is a popular indigestion remedy.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 21/08/2009 20:08:34
Ibuprofen!
Some asthmatics react badly to ibuprofen, asprin or both.

In general, Simpleton, whilst what you're trying to do is in some respects admirable I never the less find it a bit worrying. If something has a curative/protective effect it follows that that effect must be the result of a physiological effect on the body. Anything with effects has side-effects, and whilst deciding to eat a bit more fruit and veg, or even add a little cinnamon to your morning toast, isn't likely to hurt anyone (fruit, veg and cinnamon being things routinely consumed by people in day to day life and so unlikely to cause any very significant negative effect, or it would have been noticed already), I'd want to ask (ideally) an immunologist some pretty searching questions about the likely effects of dosing myself up on anti-histamines before I did so.

I am not entirely comfortable with the idea that someone who doesn't know that ibuprofen is a drug people with asthma are advised to take only under medical advice* is in effect using this forum to publish a list of drugs with the suggestion that people should take them if they contract 'flu, because however much you emphasise that you are only looking for information the above list does look like a suggestion to others.

* No offence meant here... I didn't know about this until a couple of years ago.

@rosy

Thank you for your comments, especially the reaction to Ibuprofen. I am not a doctor or chemist or pharmaceutical specialist and I did not know of that reaction which is great reason to have this forum, as now I do know, as do many others. However, I would have most likely found it out from researching it - and as I do not suffer from this illness it would however not affect me personally.

My emphasis in this research is targeted for the five to seven days from the onset of fever, those days in which, should the virus become more virulent, could become life threatening. If my thinking is correct and I should survive those 5-7 days my own amazing body will produce the anti-bodies ensuring I never get that strain again. Subsequent strains will pose a new challenge, as would the first. That being the case, my first aid kit would be updated from experience and put in the cupboard until the next time it was needed, I would return to my normal balanced diet.

Therefore, in essence, I'm searching for things, that in an ordered systematic way, can compliment useful conventional medicine throughout that five to seven days period.

I do personally plan to take into account (through research), as I hope others do, the background medical information for my individual medical circumstances in comparison to the list I have published. However, it may be difficult to be 100% accurate without personally trialling unless others have experience that can be shared. My first aid kit list is perhaps a point of reference, that could be used to spark further discussion or research or indeed disqualification (for some individuals).

As the medical community offers me only the advice; stay in bed, take relenza or tamiflu (becoming less effective), take lots of liquids and rest, I felt it necessary to embark on this research. Publishing to this forum is done with integrity and honesty. I do not have all the answers and  hope that far more qualified individuals can help me and others to improve the chances during those 5-7 days.

The list is still in "Beta" which means it still needs work.

I am not entirely comfortable with the idea and I am also personally quite worried about publishing medical thoughts to a public forum, but as no-one else seems to be doing it, I thought I might as well take the risk especially, as ethically, my intentions are good, with no product to sell and no acclaim waiting on the other side. I also thought 'perhaps it is better than doing nothing', in the hope that along the way a more defined, refined picture could be computed collectively.

Sometimes I think, 'If I do it I am damned, if I don't do it I am damned. 
Thanks for taking the time to pick up on the point of Ibuprofen.


Quote
Quote
Which is not good for Asthmatics?

As Rosy has pointed out, Ibuprofen, which is one of the most common Cox 2 inhibitors is not good for asthmatics due to it increasing the action/number of leukotrienes. Not all asthmatics are affected by it, I know I am sensitive as I already take a leukotrine blocker.
Zantac (ranatidine) is a popular indigestion remedy.

Thanks Variola, will look into Zantac (ranatidine).
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 21/08/2009 21:46:53
Good news on vaccine...

So far, "no red flags" seen in H1N1 vaccine
http://ow.ly/15LVBC (Reuters)

Not sure about the safety...

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4588419,00.html (Deutsche Welle)
"...Study says 'vaccinate children' 

New research has suggested that the best way to protect against the spread of the virus was to vaccinate school-age children and their parents. Unlike most strains of flu, which are usually most dangerous to older adults, (A)H1N1 targets younger people, according to a report published in the journal Science on Thursday.

The report recommends making children the top priority because they are the influenza's prime transmitters and their parents are the virus' bridge to the rest of the community. Inoculating spreaders, the report contends, would create a 'cocoon' around the people most at risk..."
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 22/08/2009 13:42:46

Quote
Quote
"The whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts." 1+1=3. 

Lets suppose that the first "1" is conventional medicine. The second "1" is complementary... together it produces more worth than when working alone."

this is a science forum so you should realise that if you can't support that you should withdraw it.

Finally sitting comfortably and able to concentrate on your last unanswered posting.

The word science comes from the Latin "scientia," meaning knowledge. How do we define science? According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, the definition of science is "knowledge attained through study or practice,". How can we then define homoeopathy, Chinese herbalism, acupuncture et al? Are they not a form of knowledge/science, indeed knowledge attained through study or practice?

Quote
anyway, look back to the original question; the title of the thread.
What complementary remedies are there for H1N1.
Well there are lots.
For example I might tell you that
Quote
wearing your socks inside-out
will stop you getting it.
I could make up lots more- or I could look up the ones that others have made up.

 [:o)] Comparing complementary medicine to wearing your socks inside out...  [;D]

Quote
What would I gain from this?
There are two sorts of remedies- the ones that work and the ones that don't. The ones that don't get called alternative or complimentary.
Since they don't work; who cares what they are?

 [::)] Homoeopathy, Chinese herbalism, acupuncture et al, they don't work?? Stop it is starting to hurt now...  [:0]

Quote
Do you realise that "modern" herbalists still base their work on things like
"Yarrow was a plant of Venus (this was odd, because most devil's herbs were plants of Saturn) and, as such, was frequently consulted where love matters were concerned. "
and
"Culpepper tells us that:
'Mercury has the dominion of this plant, and therefore to be sure it strengthens the brain.... It stays the hiccough, being boiled in wine, and but smelled unto being tied in a cloth. The seed is of more use than the leaves, and more effectual to digest raw and vicious humours, and is used in medicines that serve to expel wind, and the pains proceeding therefrom...."

Do you really think that such trash based on astrology is worth reading, never mind using as the basis of medicine?

Yarrow: [???] See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achillea_millefolium if you are interested in some of the uses of Yarrow. Interestingly you forgot to mention that yarrow is used by herbalists (not sure if they are modern or not) "Today, yarrow is valued mainly for its action in colds and influenza". Hey Wow, you have potentially added a new line of research for my list. Thanks.  [:X]

Did I ever mention astrology? Erm, no, but as you did...the concept seems reasonable to me...

Quote
Botanical Astrology
The connection between the celestial skies above and the growth cycles of plants and vegetation below has long been understood and honored through planting and harvesting rituals and documented by Farmer’s Almanacs. A lesser known fact is that the signs and planets of the zodiac are linked to specific herbs, flowers, plants and trees and have been used therapeutically throughout the ages. Below is an at-a-glance list originated by noted 20th century astrologer Alan Leo. Herbs are classified according to planetary influences as follows:  http://www.celestiallivingarts.com/astro_herbs.html

Quote
There are no doubt real medical uses for some herbs; I have mentioned a few.
Great! I could mention many many more...

Quote
There are also real side effects associated with herbs.
And western medicines...

Quote
No shock there- the difference between a drug and a poison is just the dose.
In many cases, I agree.

Quote
The problem is that there's a lot of rubbish talked about herbs without any basis in fact; they just claim "the ancients said it was right!".
Basis in fact? You mean knowledge or science...perhaps there is more grey in this than just your black/white approach...

Quote
Well the ancients didn't have a clue about how the body worked or about pharmacology.
[::)] Like the Egyptians, The Mayas, The Greeks, The Romans, all clueless...  [???]

Quote
Most of them thought the Earth was the centre of the universe and that the stars were painted onto glass spheres.
Are they a reliable source?
They our ancestors.

Quote
Somehow I doubt many people reading this will think so.
Perhaps you should start a poll...

"Did the ancients really have no clue about how the body worked?" 1) Yes or 2) No or 3) What a silly question...
My answer would have to be No.3.

PS. Thanks for the Yarrow tip...
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 22/08/2009 16:32:42
Google Knol is a great source of information for H1N1
http://knol.google.com/k/plos/plos-currents-influenza/28qm4w0q65e4w/1#

My first Knol relates to this posting
http://bit.ly/oJjCp (http://bit.ly/oJjCp)
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/08/2009 17:15:50
"Homoeopathy, Chinese herbalism, acupuncture et al, they don't work?? Stop it is starting to hurt now...  "

The studies of homeopathy show that it doesn't work.
While some plants in the Chinese herbal  have been shown to be beneficial (most recently the anti malarial Artemesinin, most of it is as pointless as the "mercury rules this plant" kind of nonsense.

Acupuncture doesn't compare favourably to a suitable placebo.
I take it that when you said "Stop it is starting to hurt now" you were referring to the fact that the truth sometimes hurts.

"Did I ever mention astrology? Erm, no, but as you did...the concept seems reasonable to me..."
No, you didn't mention it, but it is a part of the "rules" of the herbalism that you are so keen on.
If it seems reasonable to you could you please provide a reason why a bunch of unconnected stars zillions of miles away might have any effect on me as a consequence of the date I was born?
If you can't think of a mechanism for that then you ought not find it reasonable- yet you do. What are you doing on a scientific site?

"Did the ancients really have no clue about how the body worked?" 1) Yes or 2) No or 3) What a silly question...
My answer would have to be No.3."
Indeed it's a silly question.
They didn't understand what the heart was for- the circulation of the blood wasn't properly understood until the 17th cent.
They thought that the brain was a device for cooling the blood.
They thought that illness was due to a lack of balance between the 4 humours.

All absolute tosh. It's ridiculous to start a poll where the answer is so clear already.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Variola on 22/08/2009 17:27:54
This seems an opportune time to post this link

http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/331/ (http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/331/)

Thanks to Dentstudent for the link.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 24/08/2009 17:06:24
1 in 2 Doctors will not take the H1N1 vaccine. What message does that send to the masses...

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=35&storycode=4123491&c=1
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: BenV on 24/08/2009 18:30:37
It sends a very poor message, especially as the article doesn't mention why they wouldn't have the vaccine.  This means we can assume that they don't trust it, but we can also assume that they consider themselves healthy and would prefer to see the vaccine going to at risk groups.  Sadly, there's so little information there that we can think whatever we like...
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Bored chemist on 24/08/2009 19:37:52
I wonder if 1 in 2 doctors have already had the virus.
It seems plausible that a large fraction of them have.
If half of them think they have been exposed already then they would be fools to take, even the smallest risk, and also they would be seen as "greedy" to take it if they don't need it.


BTW, you seem not to hae spotted this question in my last post
"If it seems reasonable to you could you please provide a reason why a bunch of unconnected stars zillions of miles away might have any effect on me as a consequence of the date I was born?"
Please answer it.
Oh, Also, I just wondered; do you plan to set up the poll you suggested earlier?
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 29/08/2009 10:29:40
I wonder if 1 in 2 doctors have already had the virus.
It seems plausible that a large fraction of them have.
If half of them think they have been exposed already then they would be fools to take, even the smallest risk, and also they would be seen as "greedy" to take it if they don't need it.

Good point. Not sure about the reliability of the last posting either, just shocked me, the concept that a proportion of conventional doctors don't want their own medicine, apologies, it is good that people check and double check. A better post was written by the Daily Mail.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208716/Half-GPs-refuse-swine-flu-vaccine-testing-fears.html.

 

Quote
BTW, you seem not to hae spotted this question in my last post
"If it seems reasonable to you could you please provide a reason why a bunch of unconnected stars zillions of miles away might have any effect on me as a consequence of the date I was born?"
Please answer it.
Oh, Also, I just wondered; do you plan to set up the poll you suggested earlier?

Not an astrologer or a religious guru or a palm reader, in fact, as you now know, I am a Simpleton. Even from this stand point it would be difficult to ignore that the stars, planets and moons exist. A simple effect is how the moon effects people, plants, oceans every month, more complex would be the Pyramids around the world. I would also find it hard to accept that they have no effect upon us, can I prove it? Nope. Do I understand it all? Nope. Do I need to understand everything in order to accept it? Nope. Some things cannot be 100% scientifically explained and put into neat boxes (not yet!), I guess this must be awfully frustrating for some people.

All I can say is that my instinct leads me to the conclusion that the stars, the planets, the constellations et al somehow effect each and everyone of us. It could also be that they don't effect us at all, not one tiny little bit, but that is not my instinct.

What do you think about recent media reports that H1N1 may be showing signs of more virulence and is becoming more resistant to Tamiflu?

PS. No new polls planned at present.
Trying to find more time to continue research (for what its worth).

Have a nice weekend.


Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 29/08/2009 10:32:19
It sends a very poor message, especially as the article doesn't mention why they wouldn't have the vaccine.  This means we can assume that they don't trust it, but we can also assume that they consider themselves healthy and would prefer to see the vaccine going to at risk groups.  Sadly, there's so little information there that we can think whatever we like...

Thanks for the comment Ben. Agree, was quite a loose article. Will think twice in the future about posting dodgy articles with little of no information... Daily mail wrote a better piece, see posting above.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 10/09/2009 08:40:04
Preparing my small swedish bitters using the recipe from Maria Treben.
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/09/2009 19:48:37
"All I can say is that my instinct leads me to the conclusion that the stars, the planets, the constellations et al somehow effect each and everyone of us. "
I didn't ask for another assertion of your opinion; I asked for a reason for it.
Do you, for example, have any plausible mechanism?
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 16/09/2009 22:25:00
As this posting is actually to do with complimentery medicine and Influenza (H1N1) I really cant see the point of continuing this odd line of agressive questioning about stars and planets.

In a few weeks I will have time to continue my initial research and will be developing upon my first aid kit. For those interested I am currently taking swedish bitters (mornings before breakfast, 2 teasp), as a preventative measure.



Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/09/2009 18:38:42
" I really cant see the point of continuing this odd line of agressive questioning about stars and planets."

If you really can't see it then perhaps you need to read the thread again.
It's because a lot of the complimentary medicine is based on total hogwash like astrology.

You might want to look back to the bit where I said "Do you realise that "modern" herbalists still base their work on things like
"Yarrow was a plant of Venus (this was odd, because most devil's herbs were plants of Saturn) and, as such, was frequently consulted where love matters were concerned. "
and
"Culpepper tells us that:
'Mercury has the dominion of this plant, and therefore to be sure it strengthens the brain.... It stays the hiccough, being boiled in wine, and but smelled unto being tied in a cloth. The seed is of more use than the leaves, and more effectual to digest raw and vicious humours, and is used in medicines that serve to expel wind, and the pains proceeding therefrom...."


Do you really think that such trash based on astrology is worth reading, never mind using as the basis of medicine?"

Incidentally when you say "For those interested I am currently taking swedish bitters (mornings before breakfast, 2 teasp), as a preventative measure."
I trust you mean that you are preventing the impoverishment of the manufacturer.
There's no real evidence it will prevent anything else.

(Just for reference; evidence is not the plural of anecdote)
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Dabbler on 14/10/2009 04:18:30
Alternative H1N1 treatments:  Pycnogenol.  leukotriene inhibitor and cytokine reduction as well.  I've personally had good results with my daughter, who has viral induced asthma, especially in conjunction with quercetin.  Logically it would protect from the dreaded "cytokine storm" (cue scary music), which is what seems to kill.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15641632?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

There are many other studies out there, just google pycnogenol & cytokines
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: iko on 14/10/2009 21:52:15
Hi influential folks!

Did anybody check this out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zizxoMZcU8U&hl=it

Enjoy more on vitamindcouncil.com...

ikod
Title: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: Simpleton on 29/10/2009 06:53:09
Didnt see that link, but thanks...

Title: Re: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
Post by: smart on 09/03/2016 13:16:25
I use the following to fight viral infections :


In addition, curcumin may be used during peak influenza inflammation, if necessary.

References:

Structure-activity relationship analysis of curcumin analogues on anti-influenza virus activity: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24034558

Randomized trial of vitamin D supplementation to prevent seasonal influenza A in schoolchildren: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20219962

PPAR-gamma activation as an anti-inflammatory therapy for respiratory virus infections: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20712478

Vitamin C Is an Essential Factor on the Anti-viral Immune Responses through the Production of Interferon-α/β at the Initial Stage of Influenza A Virus (H3N2) Infection: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659258/

Antiviral effect of catechins in green tea on influenza virus: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16137775