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Quote from: DonQuichotte on 25/10/2013 21:21:10Everything we see in nature "fits in " with the machine "analogy or metaphor " except ...the nature of lifeNo. Life is easy because it is just chemistry. Consciousness is the only real difficulty - the rest is just complexity making it hard to set out exact mechanisms, but the mechanisms are already understood in principle for everything except consciousness
Everything we see in nature "fits in " with the machine "analogy or metaphor " except ...the nature of life
Quote(Can you explain life just via just physics and chemistry ? describing life via just physics and chemistry is no full explanation of life, no explanation of life ,period ) ,There is plenty of explanation available to satisfy me that everything about life is an extension of chemistry and physics, except for consciousness.
(Can you explain life just via just physics and chemistry ? describing life via just physics and chemistry is no full explanation of life, no explanation of life ,period ) ,
Quoteexcept the nature of human intellect and consciousness,Human intellect is just mechanistic applied reasoning (though typically done with many errors).
except the nature of human intellect and consciousness,
Quoteexcept consciousness in all living beings and things ,Agreed
except consciousness in all living beings and things ,
Quoteexcept the nature of human emotions feelings ,Agreed - they are part of consciousness.
except the nature of human emotions feelings ,
Quoteexcept the nature of human love ,Agreed - it is part of consciousness.
except the nature of human love ,
Quoteexcept the nature of human conscience , except the nature of human ethicsWhich again relates to consciousness - if there's no such thing as suffering, there is no role for ethics.
except the nature of human conscience , except the nature of human ethics
Quote ....the list is still long .The list is short: consciousness.
....the list is still long .
QuoteLiving orgranisms are , obviously , no machines : see above . They are obviously chemical machines, but there is a problem with consciousness as it's the part that doesn't find an explanation yet in our current scientific knowledge, not even in principle.
Living orgranisms are , obviously , no machines : see above .
You're too modest comrade. Your proof that "God of the Gaps" is false is a triumphant accomplishment. Don Quichotte will be hailed far and wide for bringing God to par with witches, goblins and easterbunnies. Hell, they might even rename halloween in your honor. Bigtime, Don, bigtime.
Are you sure about that David, that emotions are not another kind of thought or reasoning process?
Life is not just physics and chemistry , otherwise just try to explain consciousness then = you cannot just isolate life from its conscious state , just to reduce life that way to just physics and chemistry , just to fit your purpose = life is a whole package = mind and body = mind + physics and chemistry = mind is obviously not a matter of physics and chemistry .
Well, see above : life is mind and body = a whole package .Try to explain the most important component of life then = consciousness via just physics and chemistry .
Humans are the only species that do possess reason , the latter that can reflect on and question itself within and without ,reason that can question its own reasoning process , its epistemology , its validity and truth and beyond ; reason that goes beyond the external pragmatic survival necessities or survival pragmatic appearances of reality .
How did that consciousness get to exist in physical material biological processes such as life ,and inanimate matter then : consciousness and material processes that are inseparable ...
Love is part of the sub-consciousness as well .
In short : mind relates to body = consciousness relates to body = if you wanna understand them fully , if you wanna understand life fully , the inanimate world fully even , you gotta try to understand them as a whole undividable package = the whole is not the sum of its parts .And you cannot do all that just via physics and chemistry thus .
QuoteQuote ....the list is still long .The list is short: consciousness.The list is long = the nature of the conscious life as a whole , and conscious inanimate matter as whole packages = the whole is not the sum of its parts = cannot be reduced to just physics and chemistry , as materialism wanna make people believe they are .
Science can only tell us about the material empirical side of reality : the conscious life and conscious inanimate matter as whole undividable packages are thus mind and body = not just physics and chemsitry .
Whitehead or somoneelse stated so logically that emotions and feelings are just thought-projects in the making
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 26/10/2013 18:27:53Whitehead or somoneelse stated so logically that emotions and feelings are just thought-projects in the making
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 26/10/2013 18:27:53Whitehead or somoneelse stated so logically that emotions and feelings are just thought-projects in the making I've heard intuition described in that way, but not emotion. There are experiments in which people have to make predictions (such as what card will come up next, or what light will flash.) There is a pattern to the cards or flashes, but it is too complicated for most people to identify before the end of the experiment. Never the less, their guesses become more accurate as time goes on, despite the fact that participants say "there is no pattern" or "if there is, I don't know what it is, I was was just guessing." The subconscious can be logical.
And yet another lump of irrelevant Sheldrake. Are you paying him a royalty? He'll be very upset if I tell him you aren't.
Here are the ten core beliefs that most scientists take for granted.
Everything is essentially mechanical. Dogs, for example, are complex mechanisms, ratherthan living organisms with goals of their own.
QuoteHere are the ten core beliefs that most scientists take for granted.To demonstrate the truth of any subsequent statement, you have to interview at least 50% of all scientists. Rupert hasn't been alive long enough to do so.
Quote Everything is essentially mechanical. Dogs, for example, are complex mechanisms, ratherthan living organisms with goals of their own.Obvious nonsense. Has he never seen a dog? What on earth is his definition of "living"?
The essence of mechanism is mindless repetition. Like the sort of thing (it can hardly be a sentient being) that copies and pastes the same passage of nonsense regardless of the question. Vide Einstein on insanity.
Quote from: cheryl j on 25/10/2013 23:23:29Are you sure about that David, that emotions are not another kind of thought or reasoning process?100% sure. Emotions are just feelings: qualia. If these qualia are actually real, they are used in the process of driving behaviours. Love is a feeling that drives behaviour. Pain is a feeling that drives behaviour. Nasty tastes are feelings that drive behaviour. Boredom is a feeling/emotion which drives behaviour. They're all the same kind of thing.
It is a fact that those and other materialist dogmatic belief assumptions are taken for granted by most scientists
So if these drivers serve a purpose, and have a function, and effects that are often very predictable, how are they not machine like?
So Tom turned you down, Don. What were you thinking? You turned a classic like "Goblins of the Gapes" into a porn flick. Is this what you get from reading Sheldrake? Glad I never looked at that crap. Is that what you smell? Oh, no, smell isn't made of odors, language isn't made of words, the universe isn't made of material, consciousness isn't made out of... Oh, wait, you're not clear. Better get tested. You need a certain amount of cred to understand this stuff, and of course, like they say, you're not even wrong.