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Nobody is denying that a tube can be seen through.What is denied, is that the light from the near end of the tube and from the far end of the tube, reaching your eye at the "same time" left its respective ends at the "same time".Perfectly simple and logical.You may be seeing both the near end and far end in one "scene", but that in itself doesn't prove that the light giving you that "scene" left the ends of the tube at the "same time".You can extend your tube all the way to the Sun: the light from the Sun will be taking 8 minutes to travel down the tube to get to you. Light from the end of the tube near your eye will get to you in far less than a second.You've not yet shown how this standard understanding is wrong.
When you say and agree you can see through the tube, you are admitting you can see through space, I. E the start point and end point of the tube simultaneously and at the same time being seen, ...
... a rocket travelling up the tube is seen for the entire journey, because the very fact the space is see through. If you cannot understand how useless your photon is after that , then I suggest you are illogical.
Quote from: Thebox on 12/09/2016 04:25:47When you say and agree you can see through the tube, you are admitting you can see through space, I. E the start point and end point of the tube simultaneously and at the same time being seen, ...No. That's your silly literal interpretation of a figure of speech.Seeing "through the tube", in reality, simply means light from a distant object can pass through the tube and reach our eyes.Quote... a rocket travelling up the tube is seen for the entire journey, because the very fact the space is see through. If you cannot understand how useless your photon is after that , then I suggest you are illogical.What's illogical is your idea that we can see things "instantly" even though they are distant, and light takes time to travel.
...I noticed you ignored the rocket travelling up the tube. It leaves Earth at 9:00:00 , we see it arrive at 9:08:00 , we do not see it arrive at 9:16:00 We observe the rocket every step of the way. Quite clearly insane and contradictory to reality. ...
Quote from: Thebox on 12/09/2016 07:40:01...I noticed you ignored the rocket travelling up the tube. It leaves Earth at 9:00:00 , we see it arrive at 9:08:00 , we do not see it arrive at 9:16:00 We observe the rocket every step of the way. Quite clearly insane and contradictory to reality. ...As well as your usual swapping of objective and subjective, that's all just your usual assertion that you are correct, without evidence.And no, I wasn't ignoring the rocket in the tube, I was commenting on a specific part of your recent post.It's actually very logical and self-consistent that we see the rockets 9:08 arrival, at 9:16, as that's how long it takes for the image of its arrival to get to us. Light has a speed, and it's not infinite. It doesn't matter that we watch the rocket the whole way; all that means is that as it gets further away, the longer the delay is for us seeing an event occurring on that rocket. e.g. when it's half way to the Sun, the delay is 4 minutes. All perfectly in order.Science - via actual experiments - has shown us that sight works via light, and light has a finite speed.You clearly don't like this, as it contradicts your personal views, but you have no evidence that it's wrong.Your concept of immediate sight across any distance is what's illogical; you have no real explanation for how that could possibly work. How does your fairy story trump the actual science?
Firstly objective means without personal feelings or influence, there is no personal feeling in admitting we can see through the tube.
Secondly science has not proved light reflects off objects into your eyes, ...
... contradictory is that a laser does not reflect of a wall, it only reflects of a mirror or shiny like surface. You want proof? shine a laser through a smoke filled room at a wall, no reflective ray unless a mirror is used. ...
''Science - via actual experiments - has shown us that sight works via light, and light has a finite speed.''Yes we need light to enter our eyes to see, but once we open our eyes in light we can see everything in the ''scene'' at once.
''Your concept of immediate sight across any distance is what's illogical; you have no real explanation for how that could possibly work. How does your fairy story trump the actual science?''It is not illogical that we can see through space. It is not illogical to consider a Photon does not contain the information of distance.
It is logical we can observe and measure distance and see an entire distance, it is logical that I can measure a red apple in its exact location a distance away from me. It is logical I can measure a shadow to be in its exact position,
It trumps science because science is full of subjective fairy tales. it trumps science because the very fact that we see through space, we see the Sun , we see light of the sun at the sun, the sun also permeates light to highlight other objects, however we can see through the light it is not opaque.
It trumps science because we don't actually see photons, we see only clear/invisible.
p.s you dont see the rocket arriving at 9:16 ,
What's objective is there is light hitting your eye: Other people can verify that experience. And, importantly because our eyes and our brains can be fooled by any number of illusions, we can build detectors that measure the light.
It's your interpretation of what all that means that is subjective.
Your personal disbelief and rejection of science does not prove that science to be wrong. What's your experiment to prove current science wrong?
Rubbish. You can shine a laser at a wall, and see a red spot (if that's the laser used) on that wall. Clearly the laser light is reflecting off that wall, to your eyes. If you hit a mirror, you might get the laser reflected as a beam; but a normal wall will provide a diffuse reflection - the laser light is spread around, reflecting (absorbed, re-emmitted) in all directions.
You've never seen a movie where the target of a sniper sees a red dot on themselves? Are those people wearing mirrors?
''Science - via actual experiments - has shown us that sight works via light, and light has a finite speed.''
Science has shown that it's light itself that we see by. You are inventing some additional "other way" that we see, that somehow involves light plus ... plus ... plus ... what!? Magic?
''Your concept of immediate sight across any distance is what's illogical; you have no real explanation for how that could possibly work. How does your fairy story trump the actual science?''
It is illogical to think that seeing things across space somehow means our awareness is itelf across that space, witnessing things as they occur.
I've never said a photon contains "the information of distance". That's not needed.
That in itself is close to OK.
None of that shows that you're seeing things "instantly".
We don't perceive individual photons; to see even a single white pixel on your computer screen requires many photons to leave that pixel and travel to your eye.
Do you also disbelieve in electricity because you can't see individual electrons?
That's an assertion based on nothing more than your desire to hold on to your ignorance.Next you'll say something childish like "don't tell me I'm wrong because I know I'm right" - oh wait, you already did that in your blog.
Clearly the laser has no reflective beam from a brick wall, you would like by magic for the light to be reflecting and travelling across the space to your eyes, come up with garbage about diffusion, none of this is observed in reality. Every single DJ in the world will tell you there is no beam of the laser reflected from a wall. You are quite clearly making it up and it is not what happens in reality.
Quote from: pzkpfwYou've never seen a movie where the target of a sniper sees a red dot on themselves? Are those people wearing mirrors?Now your being daft, the dot on a sniper is a laser dot from another sniper, not a reflection.
Yes we see by the light, why do you keep mentioning this when I am not arguing about t hat?
Which part about see through do you not follow?
Hellooo! it's is see through, we can see through space and see things, we can see things happen, predict things to happen because space is see through. Only you are being illogical about see through.
But you see distance, you see light that has not entered your eyes in that distance, the space is not dark like a shadow is it now.
see through, see through. see through,
We dont see individual photons full period, ''they'' are made up and of the imagination.
I am not discussing electricity.
NO, it is not an assertion, you can see the rocket all the way because the space is see through, do you have problems understanding what see through means?
It means there is no obstruction to sight, so if there is no obstruction you can see things, you see things that are not obstructed at the same time you see other things that are not obstructed.
You make no sense at all. Are you truly saying that if you shine a laser at a brick wall you wouldn't/couldn't see a red (or other) dot on the wall where the laser hits it?
Because light has a limited speed, but you think sight somehow works by some other - instant - mechanism (magic).
The air between my eyes and my monitors is "see through", so light can travel from them to me, and I can read this web page. My hand is not "see through", so if I hold it up between my eyes and my monitors I can't read this web page. None of that is contradicted by knowing that light takes time to travel, so some time (less than I can possibly notice, because it's too close) will elapse between that light leaving the monitor and reaching my eyes.
See ... there's your magic. You say we see light that has not entered our eyes! How? Telepathy?
Of course you see a red dot on the wall but you do not see a reflective beam if you add smoke to the room, you only see the incident ray of the beam. Fact.
No magic involved it is see through
Now you are understanding , the air is see through, the light passing through that air that is not in your eyes, not entered your eyes is see through, you do not see light in space because it is not compressing.
Connectivity
Now go back and consider measuring where a shadow is, consider if you did not see light in space it would be dark space like a shadow.
Quote from: Thebox on 12/09/2016 23:01:09Of course you see a red dot on the wall but you do not see a reflective beam if you add smoke to the room, you only see the incident ray of the beam. Fact.You are mixing things up; of course we don't see the beam itself, as it travels through your "gin clear" air, unless there's smoke or something in the room.But that red dot on the wall is diffuse reflection of the light of the laser.(That's good evidence that we don't see light that's distant, we see light that gets to our eyes.)What was your point in this bit anyway?Quote from: Thebox on 12/09/2016 23:01:09No magic involved it is see throughUntil you can somehow explain or prove why "see through" gives "instant vision" - it remains magic.Quote from: Thebox on 12/09/2016 23:01:09Now you are understanding , the air is see through, the light passing through that air that is not in your eyes, not entered your eyes is see through, you do not see light in space because it is not compressing.Aside from degenerating back into gibberish, you are contradicting yourself here. Earlier you talk about seeing light that hasn't reached our eyes, now you talk about not seeing light in space.You can't keep your story straight.Quote from: Thebox on 12/09/2016 23:01:09ConnectivityYour "Connectivity" is magic until explained. So far, it seems to be akin to telepathy opr something. Magic.Quote from: Thebox on 12/09/2016 23:01:09Now go back and consider measuring where a shadow is, consider if you did not see light in space it would be dark space like a shadow.No. We see light when it reaches our eyes. Shadow is simply an area where none (or less) light comes from to reach our eyes.The sun lights a field, the grass sends light to our eyes. A tree blocks some of that sunlight hitting the field, we "see" the shadow on the grass because that area is sending less light to our eyes. So very simple. The perfect shape of the tree on the grass is wonderful proof of how shadows are created.In space, you could have a billion laser pointers sending light passing right in front of you, and you'd still be in darkness if none of that light is reaching your eyes (reflected off dust or something). Vision is simply about light getting to your eyes.It's not magic.
Your problem is you are eager to "mix it up" in order to deflect away from the main topic. A defense mechanism. When you are challenged and have no logical answer.
Take it from me, you are wrong.
I'm not interested in discussing science with you anymore.
Quote from: jeffreyH on 13/09/2016 01:04:58I'm not interested in discussing science with you anymore.well Jeff, perhaps you do not want to understand or even try to understand. You forget I know your information
... Now underwater look with your eyes , can you see water that is a few feet away ? Unlike air I have now give you a visual. Just like you can see the water that is a few feet away, you can see the light passing through that water that is a few feet away .