Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Geology, Palaeontology & Archaeology => Topic started by: AllenG on 21/11/2008 06:17:31
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Did Neanderthals evolve in Europe? And if so are they the only hominid to evolve outside of Africa?
Also what are the species that directly predate Neanderthals and Sapiens? Did we evolve from the same one such as homo erectus or are there intermediate species between our common ancestor?
Many thanks,
--Allen
Note to the mods; I think I should have put this under "Plant Sciences, Zoology & Evolution"
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This Mod doesn't mind - although not fossilized, neanderthal bones can be considered paleontology.
This is a good question. The largest concentration of bones found have been in the Middle East and eastern Europe so the may have evolved in Africa. However, there is no definitive proof either way. It is a question that cannot be answered with any certainty. Peking Man probably evolved in Asia so Neanderthals could have evolved anywhere.
Homo erectus is probably the common ancestor for both H. sapiens and H. neanderthalensis. And persons of European and Middle Eastern ancestry may be the result of interbreeding of the two what were really races of man. For example, both of the races, neanderthalensis and sapiens, have the same gene for language and several other distinctive genetic similarities.
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This (like all paleoanthropology...well...paleo anything) is under debate, and will be for some time to come.
As far as *I* know, neanderthalensis evolved from Homo heidelbergensis in Europe and then spread into western Asia at the same time that sapien was evolving from erectus in Africa and spreading into the Middle East. Neanderthalensis is the perfect ice age dweller: shorter, dense, and ruggedly built (allows retention of body heat) with large nasal cavities to warm air before it passes into the lungs.
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This (like all paleoanthropology...well...paleo anything) is under debate, and will be for some time to come.
As far as *I* know, neanderthalensis evolved from Homo heidelbergensis in Europe and then spread into western Asia at the same time that sapien was evolving from erectus in Africa and spreading into the Middle East. Neanderthalensis is the perfect ice age dweller: shorter, dense, and ruggedly built (allows retention of body heat) with large nasal cavities to warm air before it passes into the lungs.
Have you bothered to read the literature on the genetic evidence linking the "species," Grasshopper? (and from now on, Grasshopper, you will address me as "Master" or there will no longer be Sunday football viewing on my 42" Samsung LCD OR any food; the only reason you come over, anyway.)
Lastly, you didn't even bother with Wikipedia. You just opened your mouth, a FAUX PAS, minimally - for shame, for shame, for shame! (You will be chastised in the dungeon, and perhaps some extra time in the hole might help you out.)
FYI, I quote Wiki - since you were too lazy to read it.
"Morphology and interpretations
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"Both H. antecessor and H. heidelbergensis are likely descended from the morphologically very similar Homo ergaster [see my note at the bottom] from Africa. But because H. heidelbergensis had a larger brain-case — with a typical cranial volume of 1100-1400 cm³ overlapping the 1350 cm³ average of modern humans — and had more advanced tools and behavior, it has been given a separate species classification. The species was tall, 1.8 m (6 ft) on average, and more muscular than modern humans.
"RAO hypothesis
"According to the "Recent Out of Africa" theory, similar "Archaic Homo sapiens" found in Africa (ie. Homo sapiens idaltu only 160,000 years old), existing in Africa as a part of the operation of the Saharan pump, and not the European forms of Homo heidelbergensis, are thought to be direct ancestors of modern Homo sapiens.
"Social behavior
"H. heidelbergensis had a similar brain size to ours. In theory recent findings in Atapuerca also suggest that H. heidelbergensis may have been the first species of the Homo genus to bury their dead, but that is contested at this time. Some experts believe that H. heidelbergensis, like its descendant H. neanderthalensis acquired a primitive form of language. No forms of art or sophisticated artifacts other than stone tools have been uncovered, although red ochre, a mineral that can be used to create a red pigment which is useful as a paint, has been found at Terra Amata excavations in the south of France.
"Language
"The morphology of the outer and middle ear suggests they had an auditory sensitivity similar to modern humans and very different from chimpanzees. They were probably able to differentiate between many different sounds.[1]
"Evidence of hunting
"Cut marks found on wild deer, elephants, rhinos and horses demonstrate that they were butchered, some of the animals weighed as much as 700 kg (1,500 lb) or possibly larger. During this era, now-extinct wild animals such as mammoths, European lions and Irish elk roamed the European continent.
"Moreover, a number of 400,000 year old wooden projectile spears were found at Schöningen in northern Germany. These are thought to have been made by Homo erectus or Homo heidelbergensis. Generally, projectile weapons are more commonly associated with H. sapiens. The lack of projectile weaponry is an indication of different sustenance methods, rather than inferior technology or abilities. The situation is identical to that of native New Zealand Maori - modern Homo sapiens, who also rarely threw objects, but used spears and clubs instead.[2]"
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"Some believe that H. heidelbergensis is an extinct species, some that is a cladistic ancestor to other Homo forms sometimes improperly linked to distinct species in terms of populational genetics.
"Some scenarios of survival include
* H heidelbergensis > H. neanderthalensis > H sapiens sapiens
* H. heidelbergensis > H. rhodesiensis > H. idaltu > H sapiens sapiens"
Lastly from another page at Wikipedia:
"Saldanha man also known as Saldanha cranium or Elandsfontein cranium are fossilized remains of a hominid species believed to be homo [sic] heidelbergensis. The remains were found in Elandsfontein, located in the Saldanha Bay of South Africa."
I agree - there is dispute, BUT the new (very recent) genetic evidence is helping shape the argument - one must consider everything when dealing with science, my student.
Lastly - the note. It is very posssible that both H. antecessor and H. heidelbergensis are the same species. If this is true, then we have one common ancestor for both H. sapien and H. neanderthalensis. It then becomes an issue of whether a "cocker spaniel could mate with a great dane." The answer is "YES." Just make sure that the female is the great dane.
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I thank you for looking that up Sensei Bob.
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Your welcome - and remember:
maintain a beginner's mind, Allen.
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Have you bothered to read the literature on the genetic evidence linking the "species," Grasshopper?
Great JimBob has spoken, I will read your evidence eagerly and weigh it fairly. There is much to learn from one who has amassed as many years as you have.
Lastly, you didn't even bother with Wikipedia. You just opened your mouth, a FAUX PAS, minimally - for shame, for shame, for shame! (You will be chastised in the dungeon, and perhaps some extra time in the hole might help you out.)
FYI, I quote Wiki - since you were too lazy to read it.
As any scientist, such as yourself, will surely know, an open source encyclopedia such as Wikipedia is hardly the be all, end all of information, and merely represents the most cursory beginnings of thorough research. I would never commit the most grievous faux pas of assuming that Wikipedia represents the most current scientific knowledge.
HMPH!!! Faux pas indeed [;D]
H. heidelbergensis, like its descendant H. neanderthalensis...
From the Wiki information.
This certainly does not deviate from the lineage in my post.
Homo erectus is probably the common ancestor for both H. sapiens and H. neanderthalensis.
From your first post (check Wiki before you post?)
...at the same time that sapien was evolving from erectus...
From my first post (similarities in faux pas between us? Deviant minds think alike.)
If big screen football and delectable cuisine were the only reason for visiting you, oh acerbic one, I could get that in my own living room (I have a decent big screen and know my way around the kitchen pretty damned well). I tend to think it has something more to do with stimulating conversation, affection for your old bones, and maybe a little mental masochism on my part!
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Reverence for your Master is necessary for advancement, Grasshopper. There is a reason for everything, whether you understand it or not. Most often, you will not understand.
This is the Path.