Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => That CAN'T be true! => Topic started by: Atkhenaken on 31/08/2016 02:48:51

Title: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 31/08/2016 02:48:51
I believe that viruses don't exist and nobody has ever seen a virus. The concept of the virus was first thought up when it was discovered that bacteria are not responsible for making people sick. Thus, they had to come up with a new form of germ which could account for the existence of disease. When you look at pictures of so called 'viruses' they generally all look the same. They are just tiny uniform blobs. I believe these blobs are just fugal material which has been incubated on a petri dish. The concept of a virus is illogical because viruses don't have any means of locomotion or any sensory organs. Thus, they can't protect themselves or hunt their prey. Thus, they are an illogical organism which is incapable of surviving for more than a second or two. The virus would be incapable of entering a cell wall because (a) it wouldn't be able to detect or find the cell wall. (b) It wouldn't have any means of digging a hole through the wall.

Thus, as we can plainly see, the virus is a totally illogical 'life form'. The conception of the virus is just a money making scam which provides pharmaceutical companies with the opportunity to make billions of dollars from gullible people who will buy chemical concoctions which supposedly kill said 'viruses'.

So what causes disease then? The answer is that the modern diet is responsible. Sugar, grain, dairy and alcohol are all unnatural products which the human digestive system can't cope with and many people get sick because of this. That accounts for 98% of all disease. The other 2% of disease can be blamed on consumption of fecal material, pesticides, fungicides, heavy metals and halogens. (chlorine, fluorine and bromine)



Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: syhprum on 31/08/2016 09:36:49
I checked the date it is not the first of April 1 ! how did this bizarre post sneak in ?
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: evan_au on 31/08/2016 12:12:59
Quote from: Atkhenaken
When you look at pictures of so called 'viruses' they generally all look the same. They are just tiny uniform blobs.
If you are looking at an infection of a single type of virus, then all the blobs will look the same.

But if you look at different types of virus, they look quite different. They differ dramatically in size and shape: rods (tobacco mosaic virus), icosahedral (adenovirus), or like pieces of spaghetti (ebola).
Their genetic code is also radically different between different virus types - RNA or DNA (single or double-stranded), positive or negative, etc.
And they attack radically different hosts.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus#Structure

Quote
The virus would be incapable of entering a cell wall because (a) it wouldn't be able to detect or find the cell wall. (b) It wouldn't have any means of digging a hole through the wall.
(a) When doctors talk about the "H1N1" flu virus, the "H" part describes the version of the Hemagglutinin protein, which attaches to cell walls in the nose throat and lungs. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza#Structure.2C_properties.2C_and_subtype_nomenclature
(b) The flu virus is sucked into the cell by the cell itself engulfing the protein. Some bacteriophage viruses have a structure which resembles a hypodermic syringe, which injects the viral genes inside the cell wall.

Quote
I believe these blobs are just fungal material
A fungus is a self-replicating organism, carrying all the genes necessary to create a new fungus cell; they have sizes of 12000 kilobases and up.
A virus hijacks the host cell's machinery to propagate, and can get by with a much smaller genome (2 kilobases and up).
The largest known viruses (Pandoravirus, at 2000 kilobases) is much smaller then the smallest fungus genome.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome#Genome_size

Quote
pharmaceutical companies with the opportunity to make billions of dollars from gullible people who will buy chemical concoctions which supposedly kill said 'viruses'.
There are very few antiviral medications which have proven effective once you are infected. The HIV anti-retrovirals have been an outstanding exception, and these are given away royalty-free in the poorest countries of the world. They are responsible for a significant improvement in life expectancy for those living with HIV.

Overall, the most effective protection against viruses has been vaccination, mosquito nets, hand-washing and similar infection-control strategies.

Unfortunately, many people insist that their doctors give them antibiotics when they have a virus; this doesn't help the viral infection, but it does promote antibiotic resistance in the bacterial population.

Quote from: syhprum
how did this bizarre post sneak in ?
I think Atkhenaken has been brainwashed by the priests of Ra...
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 31/08/2016 16:50:59
Quote -

But if you look at different types of virus, they look quite different. They differ dramatically in size and shape: rods (tobacco mosaic virus), icosahedral (adenovirus), or like pieces of spaghetti (ebola).
Their genetic code is also radically different between different virus types - RNA or DNA (single or double-stranded), positive or negative, etc.
And they attack radically different hosts.


Reply - How do they attack? They have no eyes, legs, arms, ears, nose or brain to think out a strategy. The whole concept of a virus is a complete nonsense. A bad diet clearly explains how and why people get sick. I have been testing the diet theory for decades and it always works. When I avoid certain foods I never get sick. I am an expert in Photoshop, so I know how easy it is to create these computer generated images. Viruses are supposed to be single celled - so how do you explain these long spaghetti viruses? They appear to make a mockery of the single cell virus concept, in my humble opinion.

Why is it that no scientist has ever been able to reproduce, in a laboratory, the same virus from two different individuals who are infected with the same virus?


Quote - (a) When doctors talk about the "H1N1" flu virus, the "H" part describes the version of the Hemagglutinin protein, which attaches to cell walls in the nose throat and lungs.
(b) The flu virus is sucked into the cell by the cell itself engulfing the protein. Some bacteriophage viruses have a structure which resembles a hypodermic syringe, which injects the viral genes inside the cell wall.

Reply - I don't get the flu. There is only one disease which is called vitamin deficiency. All so called 'viruses' are just variations of vitamin deficiencies. Different vitamin deficiencies result in different diseases. If you have sufficient fibre in your diet your gut bacteria will protect you from getting sick. This is a known fact.


The funny looking spider virus which has legs and a syringe type injection system - This is a physical impossibility because viruses are only single celled. To have functioning legs which contract requires the use of muscle tissue and complex joint structures which a single celled life form couldn't possibly have. Thus, it  is a totally illogical creature which has been manipulated into existence using Photoshop.



HIV is the result of the gay lifestyle of late nights, alcohol, drugs, bad diet, lack of vitamins and unsanitary habits in regards to fecal material. It has nothing to do with viruses.

See Dr Stefan Lanka's website for further information.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: chiralSPO on 31/08/2016 16:56:39
Some people also suffer from a combination of ignorance and arrogance.

This thread appears to be focused on the thesis that virology is a conspiracy. Therefore I have moved it to the "that CAN'T be true" sub-forum, where widely accepted science can be dismissed.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 31/08/2016 17:03:31
The priests of the inquisition are moving in on me so soon. I must be getting closer to the truth! lol

Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: puppypower on 01/09/2016 12:06:47
Virus exists. However, virus, as normally represented in textbooks, organic aspects, are inanimate matter. A virus will not become animated or semi-alive unless they bind with water.

Once you add water to the structure of the virus, the virus can make use of the aqueous gradients of the cell, which becomes the means by which virus can appear to be consciously moving. There is a co-partnership in life between water and organics. Water makes the organics come alive, while the hydrated organics induce the water into local potentials, which set up aqueous gradients. The virus made alive by the water, becomes directed via the cellular gradients, which the hydrated virus can then influence, so it can perpetuate itself.

Below are a few quotes about the importance of water relative to protein activity and molecular recognition.The activity of the viral genetic material is also dependent on the degree of hydration. The DNA itself, contains a double helix of water, which is rarely shown as being part of its structure, even though DNA will not work properly without this double helix of water.


Protein hydration is very important for their three-dimensional structure, dynamic ensemble of conformations [2249] and activity [472, 1093, 1345, 2005]. Fluctuations of the protein surface groups are driven and controlled by the surrounding network of water molecules [2648]. Indeed, proteins lack biological activity in the absence of sufficient hydrating water (usually at least a monolayer covering; > 1.5 mols H2O mol-1 amino acid residue).

Water molecules form an integral part of most protein-protein [1339], protein-DNA [1340] and protein-ligand [1341] interactions, aiding the mutual recognition and both the binding thermodynamics and binding kinetics [1338]. The relative diameters of the binding cavity and the ligand determine the kinetics and thermodynamics of (hydrophobic) binding cavity-ligand systems, involving a sharp (cooperative) deleting transition in formation and a continuous deleting transition on ligand loss.
 
Nucleic acid hydration is crucially important for their conformation and utility [1093], as noted by Watson and Crick [828]. The strength of these aqueous interactions is far greater than those for proteins due to their highly ionic character [542b]. The DNA double helix can take up a number of conformations (for example, right handed A-DNA pitch 28.2 Å 11 bp, B-DNA pitch 34 Å 10 bp, C-DNA pitch 31Å 9.33 bp, D-DNA pitch 24.2 Å 8 bp and the left handed Z-DNA pitch 43Å 12 bp) with differing hydration. The predominant natural DNA, B-DNA, has a wide and deep major groove and a narrow and deep minor groove and requires the greatest hydration.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 01/09/2016 17:56:42
Virus exists. However, virus, as normally represented in textbooks, organic aspects, are inanimate matter. A virus will not become animated or semi-alive unless they bind with water.

Once you add water to the structure of the virus, the virus can make use of the aqueous gradients of the cell, which becomes the means by which virus can appear to be consciously moving. There is a co-partnership in life between water and organics. Water makes the organics come alive, while the hydrated organics induce the water into local potentials, which set up aqueous gradients. The virus made alive by the water, becomes directed via the cellular gradients, which the hydrated virus can then influence, so it can perpetuate itself.

If you could answer the questions that I have posed above, it would be more useful than ranting on endlessly about the details of what you believe to be viruses.

Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/09/2016 14:44:07


If you could answer the questions that I have posed above, it would be more useful than ranting on endlessly about the details of what you believe to be viruses.
Someone did answer.

"(a) When doctors talk about the "H1N1" flu virus, the "H" part describes the version of the Hemagglutinin protein, which attaches to cell walls in the nose throat and lungs. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza#Structure.2C_properties.2C_and_subtype_nomenclature
(b) The flu virus is sucked into the cell by the cell itself engulfing the protein. Some bacteriophage viruses have a structure which resembles a hypodermic syringe, which injects the viral genes inside the cell wall."


You won't accept the evidence.
What can we do?
If you plan to sit there with your fingers in your ears saying "La la la I'm not listening" when we explain things how are we going to correct your error?
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 04/09/2016 01:31:33

If you could answer the questions that I have posed above, it would be more useful than ranting on endlessly about the details of what you believe to be viruses.
Quote
Someone did answer.

"(a) When doctors talk about the "H1N1" flu virus, the "H" part describes the version of the Hemagglutinin protein, which attaches to cell walls in the nose throat and lungs. See:
(b) The flu virus is sucked into the cell by the cell itself engulfing the protein. Some bacteriophage viruses have a structure which resembles a hypodermic syringe, which injects the viral genes inside the cell wall."


You won't accept the evidence.
What can we do?
If you plan to sit there with your fingers in your ears saying "La la la I'm not listening" when we explain things how are we going to correct your error?

Many questions unanswered ref. post number 3. And yet, still not answered despite posting more information that YOU THINK is relevant.

1.The funny looking spider virus (bacteriophage) which has legs and a syringe type injection system - This (thing) is a physical impossibility because viruses are only single celled. To have functioning legs which contract requires the use of muscle tissue and complex joint structures which a single celled life form couldn't possibly have. The legs would need some kind of a nervous system to activate the muscles and a primative brain to send these messages. Thus, it is a totally illogical (thing) which has been manipulated into existence using Photoshop. The supporting electron microscope pictures do not match the obviously manipulated digital image. The electron microscope images (a) have small tails (really receptors) lol (b) The attaching fibres are long and curved/flexible structures and not the mechanical/rigid/thick stemmed as the digital diagram would suggest. Thus, it is an obvious fraud.

2. The pictures are obviously fungal in nature and have nothing to do with viruses. Note - None of the diagrams or pictures have any size or dimensional guidelines. If you visit Dr Stefan Lanka's website you will find that the images found in the viral textbooks are all out of context in regards to shape, size and type.

3. Note - Hormones have receptors, not viruses. There are 3 types of hormone which have 3 different receptors. Some stupid fools have mistaken viruses for hormones. lol!

Admin warning  - Sorry, I am not allowed to post external links. (because that would make it too easy for me to prove my point) lol


Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: evan_au on 04/09/2016 05:54:14
Quote from: Atkhenaken
How do they attack? They have no eyes, legs, arms, ears, nose or brain to think out a strategy.
Viruses are just like a floating mine, which have no strategy and do nothing until a ship bumps into them. Then they explode, and bring down the ship.

They are much more specific than a mine, as they only attack when they strike a cell having a matching receptor on its surface. It's like a lock-and-key mechanism.

Unlike a "dumb" mine, the virus contains instructions, which forces the cell to make a myriad of new virus particles, which explode out of the cell, and then float around until they, too, bump into another cell with the right receptor.

That sounds like an aggressive strategy, which operates on the molecular level, without requiring complex multicellular organs and appendages like a brain, arms or legs.
 
Quote
A bad diet clearly explains how and why people get sick.
(1) If you eat Arsenic, you will get sick.
(2) If you eat food contaminated by Norovirus, you will get sick.

Fact (1) does not falsify statement (2). This is a logical fallacy.
In fact, viruses are said to be resonsible for around 30% of foodborne illnesses.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foodborne_illness#Viruses

Quote
I am an expert in Photoshop, so I know how easy it is to create these computer generated images.
(a) I know how to fake images in Photoshop
(b) I see images of viruses
(c) All virus images must be faked

Statement (a) combined with statement (b) does not imply statement (c). This is a logical fallacy.

Part of the scientific process is peer review, which is intended to identify and weed out cases of accidental or intentional fraud.
However, viruses have been validated enough times, in enough different ways, by such a large number of individuals that they can now be confidently asserted as a fact. There is even a medical speciality of "virology" - Chris Smith, the original "Naked Scientist" is a virologist.
 
Quote
Viruses are supposed to be single celled - so how do you explain these long spaghetti viruses?  They appear to make a mockery of the single cell virus concept, in my humble opinion.
Certain multicellular algae form long, spaghetti-like filaments; I have seen some on the sea-shore that are perhaps 40mm (40,000um)  long, and seem to have the thickness of human hair (about 0.1mm=100um). But they are far larger than an Ebola virus.

Some single-cell organisms form long, spaghetti-like threads; the human sperm cell has a tail which is about 50um long, and about 1um thick. And this leaves out most of the machinery required for a living cell. But this is still far larger than an Ebola virus.

The Ebola virus is about 1um long, and 0.1um in diameter. It is clearly not a single cell, let alone a multicellular organism.

As you say, it is important to have a size scale on what you are looking at; otherwise you could confuse a hot-air balloon with a raindrop.

Quote
Why is it that no scientist has ever been able to reproduce, in a laboratory, the same virus from two different individuals who are infected with the same virus?
Scientists have gone one better than that, in the recent Ebola outbreak.

By using the latest diagnostic tools, they were able to sequence the genetic code from multiple individuals infected by Ebola. Epidemiologists were able to draw a "family tree" of the Ebola virus, and determine which humans infected which other humans.
Not only did they obtain the same kind of virus from many different individuals, they were able to identify patients (n-1) and (n+1).

Quote
If you have sufficient fibre in your diet your gut bacteria will protect you from getting sick. This is a known fact.
...and Bacteriophages are one of the factors keeping the bacteria from getting out of control.

Quote
To have functioning legs which contract requires the use of muscle tissue and complex joint structures  which a single celled life form couldn't possibly have.
If you saw a large creature like a caribou for the first time, you would (rightly) assume that it had a complex multicellular structure with muscles and complex joints.

If you saw a small creature like a bacteriphage for the first time (much smaller than a single cell), you would (rightly) assume that it did not have a complex multicellular structure with muscles and complex joints. 

You have made two correct deductions, and combined them to come to a false conclusion. This is a logical fallacy.

In fact, every carbon atom in a hydrocarbon forms a fully-functional rotating joint.
On a larger scale, many proteins/enzymes in our bodies have structural segments that form a backbone, and jointed sections that allow these structural segments to move relative to each other. These physical movements are triggered when a matching molecule fits the enzyme receptor.

Quote
Hormones have receptors, not viruses. There are 3 types of hormone which have 3 different receptors. Some stupid fools have mistaken viruses for hormones.
As mentioned above, many single molecules have receptor sites; many cells also have receptors on their surfaces which are triggered into action by events in their environment (eg finding the Hemagglutinin protein in their environment - only it is attached to a flu virus!).

...There are far more than 3 hormones, and far more than 3 receptors in the human body!

Quote
Thus, [a virus]  is a totally illogical creature
I fear it is your logic which is flawed.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 04/09/2016 07:35:10

Viruses are just like a floating mine, which have no strategy and do nothing until a ship bumps into them. Then they explode, and bring down the ship.

They are much more specific than a mine, as they only attack when they strike a cell having a matching receptor on its surface. It's like a lock-and-key mechanism.

Unlike a "dumb" mine, the virus contains instructions, which forces the cell to make a myriad of new virus particles, which explode out of the cell, and then float around until they, too, bump into another cell with the right receptor.

That sounds like an aggressive strategy, which operates on the molecular level, without requiring complex multicellular organs and appendages like a brain, arms or legs.

Ah ha, the old mine analogy. I didn't think you would stoop that low.

OK, I accept the challenge!

If a virus is like a mine then -

1. Where is the explosive device?

2. Where is the detonator?

3. What type of explosives are used in the explosion?

4. Do you have a picture of a viral explosion or are you just guessing that's what happens because you have been trapped in a corner and will grab any excuse that you can find to justify your outlandish claims?



Quote
A bad diet clearly explains how and why people get sick.
(1) If you eat Arsenic, you will get sick.
(2) If you eat food contaminated by Norovirus, you will get sick.

Fact (1) does not falsify statement (2). This is a logical fallacy.
In fact, viruses are said to be responsible for around 30% of foodborne illnesses.[/quote]


This website is full of out-dated advice and information. Modern gut theory based on 'leaky gut syndrome' is a far more updated version of what really happens when people get sick. As I am unable to present outside links I can't refer you directly to the leaky gut information website but I am sure you can find it. Thus, 98% of all disease is caused by grain, sugar, dairy and alcohol. The other 2% being caused by heavy metals, pesticides, fungicides, herbicides, halogens and other toxic chemicals. Germs CAUSE zero percent of all disease unless you eat somebody else's fecal material.

Quote
I am an expert in Photoshop, so I know how easy it is to create these computer generated images.
(a) I know how to fake images in Photoshop
(b) I see images of viruses
(c) All virus images must be faked

Statement (a) combined with statement (b) does not imply statement (c). This is a logical fallacy.

Part of the scientific process is peer review, which is intended to identify and weed out cases of accidental or intentional fraud.
However, viruses have been validated enough times, in enough different ways, by such a large number of individuals that they can now be confidently asserted as a fact. There is even a medical speciality of "virology" - Chris Smith, the original "Naked Scientist" is a virologist.[/quote]

1. If Chris Smith is a virologist, then, that explains why I can't use any outside links. (conspiracy to block real science and promote pseudo science as being real science)

2. Validation in science strictly follows the dollar signs. If there is no money to be made from a natural cure, then the medical system will kill it with disinformation.

3. I have provided a link to Dr Stefan Lanka which you have obviously ignored.


 
Quote
Viruses are supposed to be single celled - so how do you explain these long spaghetti viruses?  They appear to make a mockery of the single cell virus concept, in my humble opinion.
Certain multicellular algae form long, spaghetti-like filaments; I have seen some on the sea-shore that are perhaps 40mm (40,000um)  long, and seem to have the thickness of human hair (about 0.1mm=100um). But they are far larger than an Ebola virus.[/quote]

Algae are not viruses. The dictionary definition of a virus is very vague. This is because nobody has ever seen a virus. The dictionary doesn't describe if a virus has single or multiple cells. It just says that they have no cell walls -(which makes it a non-viable life form in my opinion.) Note - If you have no cell walls, then you can't be multi-celled! lol 
Thus, your spaghetti virus is just an illogical nonsense. It must be just a parasitic worm which has been manipulated to look virus like. Note - No size reference in pictures.

Quote
Some single-cell organisms form long, spaghetti-like threads; the human sperm cell has a tail which is about 50um long, and about 1um thick. And this leaves out most of the machinery required for a living cell. But this is still far larger than an Ebola virus.

So? What's the point here?

Quote
The Ebola virus is about 1um long, and 0.1um in diameter. It is clearly not a single cell, let alone a multicellular organism.

As you say, it is important to have a size scale on what you are looking at; otherwise you could confuse a hot-air balloon with a raindrop.

So don't sent me any pictures unless they contain -

1. Size.

2. Date.

3. The procedure used in getting picture.

4. The person responsible for creating picture.

Quote
Why is it that no scientist has ever been able to reproduce, in a laboratory, the same virus from two different individuals who are infected with the same virus?
Scientists have gone one better than that, in the recent Ebola outbreak.

By using the latest diagnostic tools, they were able to sequence the genetic code from multiple individuals infected by Ebola. Epidemiologists were able to draw a "family tree" of the Ebola virus, and determine which humans infected which other humans.
Not only did they obtain the same kind of virus from many different individuals, they were able to identify patients (n-1) and (n+1).[/quote]

You still haven't answered the question fully. Were they able to reproduce the virus in a laboratory from two separate individuals and get the same culture? Note - I already know that this has never been done. Thus, germ theory has never been ratified. (the 200 year old lie still lives on.)



..
Quote
To have functioning legs which contract requires the use of muscle tissue and complex joint structures  which a single celled life form couldn't possibly have.
Quote
If you saw a large creature like a caribou for the first time, you would (rightly) assume that it had a complex multicellular structure with muscles and complex joints.

If you saw a small creature like a bacteriphage for the first time (much smaller than a single cell), you would (rightly) assume that it did not have a complex multicellular structure with muscles and complex joints. 

You have made two correct deductions, and combined them to come to a false conclusion. This is a logical fallacy.

In fact, every carbon atom in a hydrocarbon forms a fully-functional rotating joint.
On a larger scale, many proteins/enzymes in our bodies have structural segments that form a backbone, and jointed sections that allow these structural segments to move relative to each other. These physical movements are triggered when a matching molecule fits the enzyme receptor.

How would you be able to differentiate a hormone entering a cell from a virus entering a cell?

Lastly - How was the first virus identified when there was no reference of what a virus looks like? Good luck!

Some reading material - The Rabbit Hole - Jon Rappoport  (google web search required)

Does HIV Exist? An interview with Eleni Papadopoulos-Eleopulos by Christine Johnson.

Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/09/2016 17:38:52
You make the claim that diseases which in conventional  reality are caused by viruses are caused by other factors-
"So what causes disease then? The answer is that the modern diet is responsible. Sugar, grain, dairy and alcohol are all unnatural products which the human digestive system can't cope with and many people get sick because of this. That accounts for 98% of all disease."

Well, we have not eradicated those factors from the world. and , according to your bizarre notion that means we can't control any viral diseases.
But we have eradicated smallpox and nearly eradicated polio.
And we did that by vaccination- which only works because we identified the virus responsible.
So, your suggestion - diseases are not caused by viruses leads to a prediction- we will not remove diseases by removing viruses ( we would need to remove all the factors you listed earlier).

And yet we have removed a disease.
So you are unequivocally logically wrong. That's it; you can give up and  go home now. The job's over: you were wrong.

There's also the interesting question of how come people with HIV are living longer than they used to. The only change that's been made is that we now treat them with antiviral drugs.
But those drugs have very specific targets- typically the reverse transcriptase enzyme that is found in HIV.
How come targeting the virus controls the disease if the disease isn't caused by the virus?
While I'm at it.
"You still haven't answered the question fully. Were they able to reproduce the virus in a laboratory from two separate individuals and get the same culture? "
Yes we have answered that question; and the answer is yes. It was done with the ebola outbreak recently.
Will it help if we tell you that a third time?
"How would you be able to differentiate a hormone entering a cell from a virus entering a cell? "
Well, a few things; The first is  that we know what hormones are and they are, among other things single chemical molecules- we know their molecular structures- they are much smaller than viruses and they are endogenous rather then infectious.
"Lastly - How was the first virus identified when there was no reference of what a virus looks like? Good luck!"
Well, obviously- not by sight.
They were originally identified because they were small. Scientists knew how to make filters that would reliably remove bacteria but they found that there were some infectious agents that were much smaller- they would go through a filter that would strain out bacteria- so- whatever these agents were, they were not bacteria (far less were they fungi which are generally even bigger- so you can ditch that idea).

Did you think you had some sort of "killer argument" there? Is that why you wished us good luck?
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/09/2016 17:43:27


Admin warning  - Sorry, I am not allowed to post external links. (because that would make it too easy for me to prove my point) lol
That's what's technically referred to as a lie.
You are, of course, allowed to post links.
Fore example, I can post a link to this wiki page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discredited_HIV/AIDS_origins_theories
You might want to read it.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 05/09/2016 01:55:43

Well, we have not eradicated those factors from the world. and , according to your bizarre notion that means we can't control any viral diseases.
But we have eradicated smallpox and nearly eradicated polio.
And we did that by vaccination- which only works because we identified the virus responsible.
So, your suggestion - diseases are not caused by viruses leads to a prediction- we will not remove diseases by removing viruses ( we would need to remove all the factors you listed earlier).

In the early days they didn't have microscopes. Thus, they just called it "small pox" without knowing that small pox might have been a small virus. The process of vaccination is just an old wives tale made scientific by an uneducated moron by the name of Edward Jenner. The concept of mixing animal blood with human blood goes back thousands of years. It was believed that the strength or spirit of the animal could be transferred to humans by mixing the blood. This is just an ancient superstition which has been revived by money making governments and pharmaceutical companies. The concept of disease is used by governments as a border control device to prevent cross border travel without checking place of origin. (passport). But, alas, there are no contagious diseases, it is just a 200 year old scam. The Vaccination Liberation website has plenty of graphs which show that polio out-breaks occurred only after the invention of pesticides. Thus, all neurological diseases are caused by halogen poisoning. That's chlorine, bromine and fluorine. The human immune system (hormone system) is iodine based and can be disrupted by halogens which mimic iodine. Thus, Polio, Ebola and Zika viruses are all pesticide related problems. Small pox is a volcano related problem. When large volcanoes erupt they spew out poisonous gases and dust which can destroy crops and kill lives stock. This leads to massive starvation on a global scale. This occurs every so often throughout history. We have been lucky in the last 200 years because there hasn't been any large scale volcanic activity.

Quote
And yet we have removed a disease.
So you are unequivocally logically wrong. That's it; you can give up and  go home now. The job's over: you were wrong.

Note - Scarlet fever was never vaccinated against, yet it disappeared by itself without vaccination. Why? Answer - Because there is only one disease which is called VITAMIN DEFICIENCY! That's why!


Quote
There's also the interesting question of how come people with HIV are living longer than they used to. The only change that's been made is that we now treat them with antiviral drugs.
But those drugs have very specific targets- typically the reverse transcriptase enzyme that is found in HIV.
How come targeting the virus controls the disease if the disease isn't caused by the virus?

The only reason HIV people are living longer is because they stopped eating bad diets, having late nights, drugs and alcohol. Any medication would be totally useless because there are no viruses.

Quote
While I'm at it.
"You still haven't answered the question fully. Were they able to reproduce the virus in a laboratory from two separate individuals and get the same culture? "
Yes we have answered that question; and the answer is yes. It was done with the ebola outbreak recently.
Will it help if we tell you that a third time?

If it has been done, then give the details (procedure used) of the scientific paper and date. etc.

Quote
"How would you be able to differentiate a hormone entering a cell from a virus entering a cell? "
Well, a few things; The first is  that we know what hormones are and they are, among other things single chemical molecules- we know their molecular structures- they are much smaller than viruses and they are endogenous rather then infectious.

How do you know that viruses are not endogenous as well?

Quote
"Lastly - How was the first virus identified when there was no reference of what a virus looks like? Good luck!"
Well, obviously- not by sight.
They were originally identified because they were small. Scientists knew how to make filters that would reliably remove bacteria but they found that there were some infectious agents that were much smaller- they would go through a filter that would strain out bacteria- so- whatever these agents were, they were not bacteria (far less were they fungi which are generally even bigger- so you can ditch that idea).

Oh, so they didn't SEE THEM! they just guessed them into existence. I thought so! lol

Quote from - The Rabbit Hole by Jon Rappoport.

This is one of the many problems. Montagnier and Gallo did use density gradient banding, but for some unknown reason THEY DID NOT PUBLISH ANY EMS [electron microscope photos] of the material at 1.16 gm/ml…this is quite puzzling because in 1973 the Pasteur Institute hosted a meeting attended by scientists, some of whom are now amongst the leading HIV experts. At that meeting the method of retroviral isolation was thoroughly discussed, and photographing the 1.16 band of the density gradient was considered absolutely essential.

lol! They didn't SEE any either! lol! What a joke the medical system is! lol!

Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/09/2016 22:47:37
OK, let's just see how wrong you are today.
"In the early days they didn't have microscopes. "
True - but irrelevant.
"Thus, they just called it "small pox" without knowing that small pox might have been a small virus. "
Ditto- but it was called "small" pox to distinguish it from "The great pox" i.e syphilis. They didn't know what caused it. Nobody said they did.

"The process of vaccination is just an old wives tale "
Plainly wrong- if it was true we couldn't have wiped out smallpox and knocked back lots of other diseases.

"made scientific by an uneducated moron by the name of Edward Jenner. "
Again- plainly wrong.
He was clearly educated- he was a doctor- and he was equally clearly not a moron (for the same reason).

"The concept of mixing animal blood with human blood goes back thousands of years. It was believed that the strength or spirit of the animal could be transferred to humans by mixing the blood. "
True- but nothing to do with modern medical science.

"But, alas, there are no contagious diseases, it is just a 200 year old scam."
Yes there are and they have been documented for well over 200 years.
for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plague_of_London

So, again, you are plainly wrong.

"...which has been revived by money making governments and pharmaceutical companies. "
No.
For example, Salk- who invented the Polio vaccine never patented it.
Also they are not reviving "animalism" they are using an entirely different  idea- that of viral infection.
Nobody goes to their doctor and gets told "this is monkey blood- the spirit of the monkey will protect you from the 'flu".
They get semisynthetic proteind derived from viruses. and that's what they get told.
So, once again, you are plainly wrong.

"The concept of disease is used by governments as a border control device to prevent cross border travel without checking place of origin. (passport). "

Wrong and irrational.
They do check passports- they don't check for viral diseases.
So, again, plainly wrong.

"The Vaccination Liberation website has plenty of graphs which show that polio out-breaks occurred only after the invention of pesticides. "

They must be very poorly educated (or just plain dishonest).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis#History
 the abncient Egyptians were aware of polio- but didn't use any meaningful pesticides.
So, again, plainly wrong.

"Thus, all neurological diseases are caused by halogen poisoning. That's chlorine, bromine and fluorine."
Very few people are exposed to fluorine- essentially it's only used in labs.
The human body needs chloride- salt- to function. Its vital role has been known since (at least) the days of ancient Rome so, once again
Plainly wrong.
(Incidentally we know of neurological diseases that are caused by pother things- manganese toxicity for example)

"The human immune system (hormone system) is iodine based and can be disrupted by halogens which mimic iodine. "

The immune system and hormonal system are not the same thing- so that's plainly wrong.
Only one  small group of hormones relies on iodine and it is perfectly able to select iodide, even in the presence of fluoride, bromide and chloride.
Bromide is toxic but its effect is due to disruption of chloride  .
So, once again you are plainly wrong.

"Thus, Polio, Ebola and Zika viruses are all pesticide related problems."
Non seq and thus plainly wrong. (also see the comment about the Egyptians)

"Small pox is a volcano related problem."
Nope. It was common in the UK and we don't have volcanoes.
Plainly wrong.

"When large volcanoes erupt they spew out poisonous gases and dust which can destroy crops and kill lives stock. This leads to massive starvation on a global scale. This occurs every so often throughout history. We have been lucky in the last 200 years because there hasn't been any large scale volcanic activity."
Plainly wrong (do you not watch the news?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_St._Helens
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_eruptions_of_Eyjafjallaj%C3%B6kull

"Scarlet fever was never vaccinated against, yet it disappeared by itself without vaccination. Why? Answer - Because there is only one disease which is called VITAMIN DEFICIENCY! That's why! "
Plainly wrong (and irrelevant since it's not a virus)
The right answer is penicillin.

"The only reason HIV people are living longer is because they stopped eating bad diets, having late nights, drugs and alcohol."
Many people with HIV are babies and young children, so that idea is plainly wrong (and deeply offensive). It also suggests that your motivation for peddling this nonsense is bigotry on your part.

"
If it has been done, then give the details (procedure used) of the scientific paper and date. etc."
Sure; among others.
http://embomolmed.embopress.org/content/early/2014/12/29/emmm.201404792#abstract-1
et seq.
Your assertion that it wasn't done is  plainly wrong.

"How do you know that viruses are not endogenous as well? "
Because they couldn't be infections if they were.

"Oh, so they didn't SEE THEM! they just guessed them into existence. I thought so! lol"
Yes and...?
Those sorts of guesses are called hypotheses; once they get tested and found to make accurate predictions they become established science.
In thinking that's grounds for laughter you are plainly wrong.


Why do you think it matters that something, done many times since, was not done in 1973?
Are you aware that electron microscopes were a bit rare back then?
If you think it matters then again you are plainly wrong.

So, in summary you are wrong on anything that might be relevant.

Why are you bothering to post your absurd bigotry, conceit and, above all, ignorance?
It's not as if it makes you look clever.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 06/09/2016 01:58:54
OK, let's just see how wrong you are today.
"In the early days they didn't have microscopes. "
True - but irrelevant.

Wrong - Relevant.


Quote
"The process of vaccination is just an old wives tale "
Plainly wrong- if it was true we couldn't have wiped out smallpox and knocked back lots of other diseases.

Refer to - Weston A. Price Foundation - Pesticides and Polio : A critique of scientific literature. (For rebuttal.)

Quote
"made scientific by an uneducated moron by the name of Edward Jenner. "
Again- plainly wrong.
He was clearly educated- he was a doctor- and he was equally clearly not a moron (for the same reason).

They had no medical schools in those days. Becoming a doctor was similar to becoming a butcher or a carpenter. It was an apprenticeship system.

Quote
"The concept of mixing animal blood with human blood goes back thousands of years. It was believed that the strength or spirit of the animal could be transferred to humans by mixing the blood. "
True- but nothing to do with modern medical science.

There is absolutely no difference. Modern vaccination still uses animal tissue as the medium for all vaccinations.

Quote
"But, alas, there are no contagious diseases, it is just a 200 year old scam."
Yes there are and they have been documented for well over 200 years.
for example

So, again, you are plainly wrong.

Again, I am plainly right - refer to - The Guardian - Mass grave in London reveals how volcano caused global catastrophe.


Quote
"...which has been revived by money making governments and pharmaceutical companies. "
No.
For example, Salk- who invented the Polio vaccine never patented it.

Vactruth website - 5.7 billion given to vaccine manufacturers in 2011 by US government. More lies! No money in vaccination? Get a life mate!


Quote
Also they are not reviving "animalism" they are using an entirely different  idea- that of viral infection.
Nobody goes to their doctor and gets told "this is monkey blood- the spirit of the monkey will protect you from the 'flu".
They get semisynthetic proteind derived from viruses. and that's what they get told.
So, once again, you are plainly wrong.

More bull-crap! When I was vaccinated I was told nothing! Vaccination is a very secretive and insidious operation of deception. Semisynthetic proteind is just jargon for animal protein which has been infused with dangerous chemicals as a preservative. The only difference is that the protein may have been fermented in a vat from an original animal protein base. (More deception.)


Quote
"The concept of disease is used by governments as a border control device to prevent cross border travel without checking place of origin. (passport). "

Wrong and irrational.
They do check passports- they don't check for viral diseases.
So, again, plainly wrong.

Next time you go to an airport, tell them that you have Ebloa virus, and see if they let you on the plane. lol! What are quarantine stations for? Decorations? lol!


Quote
"The Vaccination Liberation website has plenty of graphs which show that polio out-breaks occurred only after the invention of pesticides. "

They must be very poorly educated (or just plain dishonest).

 the ancient Egyptians were aware of polio- but didn't use any meaningful pesticides.
So, again, plainly wrong.

If you see one Egyptian lithograph with a person with a withered leg doesn't equate with polio. This is definitely a very unscientific methodology that you are using. You must be getting very desperate to prove your point if you are willing to stoop so low. There are a number of other far more likely causes. 1. upper class inbreeding 2. Using lead oxides and mercury oxides as make-up. 3. Just plain unlucky - born that way.

Quote
Very few people are exposed to fluorine- essentially it's only used in labs.
The human body needs chloride- salt- to function. Its vital role has been known since (at least) the days of ancient Rome so, once again
Plainly wrong.

Plainly wrong. They put fluorine in the drinking water! 30 - 40 % of all drug and agricultural products contain fluorine or fluoride. 20 % of pharmaceutical products contain fluorine and fluoride.

Quote
"The human immune system (hormone system) is iodine based and can be disrupted by halogens which mimic iodine. "

The immune system and hormonal system are not the same thing- so that's plainly wrong.
Only one  small group of hormones relies on iodine and it is perfectly able to select iodide, even in the presence of fluoride, bromide and chloride.
Bromide is toxic but its effect is due to disruption of chloride  .
So, once again you are plainly wrong.

Plainly wrong again. refer to PubMed - The relationship between the immune and endocrine systems.

Refer to EWG website - Fire retardants
What do breast milk and polar bears have in common? In 1999, some Swedish scientists studying women’s breast milk discovered something totally unexpected: The milk contained an endocrine-disrupting chemical found in fire retardants, and the levels had been doubling every five years since 1972! These incredibly persistent chemicals, known as polybrominated diphenyl ethers or PBDEs, have since been found to contaminate the bodies of people and wildlife around the globe – even polar bears. These chemicals can imitate thyroid hormones in our bodies and disrupt their activity. That can lead to lower IQ, among other significant health effects. While several kinds of PBDEs have now been phased out, this doesn’t mean that toxic fire retardants have gone away. PBDEs are incredibly persistent, so they’re going to be contaminating people and wildlife for decades to come.

Quote
"Small pox is a volcano related problem."
Nope. It was common in the UK and we don't have volcanoes.
Plainly wrong.

Plainly wrong - Very large volcanoes can effect the whole globe.

Quote
"When large volcanoes erupt they spew out poisonous gases and dust which can destroy crops and kill lives stock. This leads to massive starvation on a global scale. This occurs every so often throughout history. We have been lucky in the last 200 years because there hasn't been any large scale volcanic activity."
Plainly wrong (do you not watch the news?)

These are relatively small volcanoes. We haven't had a really big one for some time.

Quote
"Scarlet fever was never vaccinated against, yet it disappeared by itself without vaccination. Why? Answer - Because there is only one disease which is called VITAMIN DEFICIENCY! That's why! "
Plainly wrong (and irrelevant since it's not a virus)
The right answer is penicillin.

It is well known that anti-biotics cause more problems than they solve. Killing all the gut bacteria can cause a person to die from starvation because they have no good bacteria to digest their food.


Quote
"The only reason HIV people are living longer is because they stopped eating bad diets, having late nights, drugs and alcohol."
Many people with HIV are babies and young children, so that idea is plainly wrong (and deeply offensive). It also suggests that your motivation for peddling this nonsense is bigotry on your part.

Refer to Whale.com  - In Japan "AIDS" is virtually unknown : yet, in random tests, 25% of people
were found to be "HIV-positive".

Thus, the testing is faulty for a start. If a baby has HIV it is probably malnutrition from a drug taking mother. Deeply offensive all right! Using political correctness as a weapon is always offensive! lol


Quote
"How do you know that viruses are not endogenous as well? "
Because they couldn't be infections if they were.

A circular argument. More nonsense. No evidence!


Quote
"Oh, so they didn't SEE THEM! they just guessed them into existence. I thought so! lol"
Yes and...?
Those sorts of guesses are called hypotheses; once they get tested and found to make accurate predictions they become established science.
In thinking that's grounds for laughter you are plainly wrong.

Your are right! They are established guesses! lol! Let's face it, nobody has ever seen a virus because they simply don't exist!

The medical establishment needs viruses to make a living out of public ignorance on the nature and causes of disease.


Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/09/2016 21:39:12
We both know that you are wrong on practically every single point of that.
Starting with the fact that you don't need to see microorganisms to know that they exist- you can deduce their existence from their actions. and ending with " nobody has ever seen a virus because they simply don't exist!"
(here's a picture of some in a bottle)
http://centennial.rucares.org/index.php?page=protein_nucleic_acid


Why do you insist on ignoring reality?
BTW, there's a measles outbreak at the moment. It's not caused by any sudden change in people's food or habits. It's caused because deluded people like you disrupted vaccination programs.

People like you are responsible for deaths and illness.
Why not stop being so destructive?
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 07/09/2016 02:30:44
We both know that you are wrong on practically every single point of that.
Starting with the fact that you don't need to see microorganisms to know that they exist- you can deduce their existence from their actions. and ending with " nobody has ever seen a virus because they simply don't exist!"
(here's a picture of some in a bottle)
http://centennial.rucares.org/index.php?page=protein_nucleic_acid


Why do you insist on ignoring reality?
BTW, there's a measles outbreak at the moment. It's not caused by any sudden change in people's food or habits. It's caused because deluded people like you disrupted vaccination programs.

People like you are responsible for deaths and illness.
Why not stop being so destructive?

1. There is only one disease which is vitamin deficiency. Thus, the recent measles outbreaks are just vitamin deficiency outbreaks. This can be proven by seeing where these outbreaks occur. Usually occurring in places where diets are poor. Detention centres and low socio-economic neighbourhoods are the most common places.

2. Measles is fatal in only .2% of cases. Why? Because it is not a virus - that's why!

3. "People who are unvaccinated are carriers of measles". Illogical nonsense! A vaccinated person will carry said 'disease' just as easily as an unvaccinated person. There is no scientific evidence to prove that an vaccinated person is not a carrier of a disease. More false assumptions.

4. Measles is a respiratory problem. Thus, the cause will be dairy products which cause and excessive mucus reaction from the body's immune system. Dairy products are unnatural for humans and results in many lung related flu like symptoms. Thus, to stop all flu and measles type diseases it would be more effective to stop selling milk to uninformed people who think that milk is healthy. I was obliged to drink milk at school as the government supplied free milk to all schools when I was young. But for some reason I never drank the milk because I must have some kind of premonition that something was wrong here. Later, 30 years later, I found out that I was right. Milk is a poisonous substance that will block all your arteries and make you sick.

5. I see that you have come to the end of your short tether. You haven't replied to 90% of my previous statements which means that you have no rebuttal to my evidence. Therefore, I must conclude that you have conceded on this issue and that vitamins will protect against all disease and that there are no viruses.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: evan_au on 07/09/2016 11:51:28
Quote from: Atkhenaken
nobody has ever seen a virus
The discovery of "Mad Cow Disease" caused a fair amount of disbelief at the time - an infectious agent that has no genetic material!?

On the other hand, as a disease caught from eating infected cow brains, you presumably would be quite happy with it as a disease caused by poor diet?

Even though prions are too small to see?
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 07/09/2016 16:43:01
Quote from: Atkhenaken
nobody has ever seen a virus
The discovery of "Mad Cow Disease" caused a fair amount of disbelief at the time - an infectious agent that has no genetic material!?

On the other hand, as a disease caught from eating infected cow brains, you presumably would be quite happy with it as a disease caused by poor diet?

Even though prions are too small to see?
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion

Prions are even less likely to exist than what viruses are. There are no prions! It is just another scam of the pharmaceutical industry to cover up the fact that organophosphates cause spongiform encephalopathy. Visit Mark Purdey's website to see the full story and facts about BSE.

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/madcow/madcow.htm
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: jeffreyH on 07/09/2016 19:07:47
Quote from: Atkhenaken
nobody has ever seen a virus
The discovery of "Mad Cow Disease" caused a fair amount of disbelief at the time - an infectious agent that has no genetic material!?

On the other hand, as a disease caught from eating infected cow brains, you presumably would be quite happy with it as a disease caused by poor diet?

Even though prions are too small to see?
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion

Prions are even less likely to exist than what viruses are. There are no prions! It is just another scam of the pharmaceutical industry to cover up the fact that organophosphates cause spongiform encephalopathy. Visit Mark Purdey's website to see the full story and facts about BSE.

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/madcow/madcow.htm

Rydych yn ymddangos i fod yn dipyn o denier . Yr wyf yn rhyfeddu ac yn awyddus i ddeall pam .
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/09/2016 21:14:43


1. There is only one disease which is vitamin deficiency. Thus, the recent measles outbreaks are just vitamin deficiency outbreaks. This can be proven by seeing where these outbreaks occur. Usually occurring in places where diets are poor. Detention centres and low socio-economic neighbourhoods are the most common places.

2. Measles is fatal in only .2% of cases. Why? Because it is not a virus - that's why!

3. "People who are unvaccinated are carriers of measles". Illogical nonsense! A vaccinated person will carry said 'disease' just as easily as an unvaccinated person. There is no scientific evidence to prove that an vaccinated person is not a carrier of a disease. More false assumptions.

4. Measles is a respiratory problem. Thus, the cause will be dairy products which cause and excessive mucus reaction from the body's immune system. Dairy products are unnatural for humans and results in many lung related flu like symptoms. Thus, to stop all flu and measles type diseases it would be more effective to stop selling milk to uninformed people who think that milk is healthy. I was obliged to drink milk at school as the government supplied free milk to all schools when I was young. But for some reason I never drank the milk because I must have some kind of premonition that something was wrong here. Later, 30 years later, I found out that I was right. Milk is a poisonous substance that will block all your arteries and make you sick.

5. I see that you have come to the end of your short tether. You haven't replied to 90% of my previous statements which means that you have no rebuttal to my evidence. Therefore, I must conclude that you have conceded on this issue and that vitamins will protect against all disease and that there are no viruses.

Why are you telling these lies?
Do you want to spread illness and disease?
Perhaps it would be better if you went and learned something about science before you posted anything more  in this forum.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 08/09/2016 02:08:39


1. There is only one disease which is vitamin deficiency. Thus, the recent measles outbreaks are just vitamin deficiency outbreaks. This can be proven by seeing where these outbreaks occur. Usually occurring in places where diets are poor. Detention centres and low socio-economic neighbourhoods are the most common places.

2. Measles is fatal in only .2% of cases. Why? Because it is not a virus - that's why!

3. "People who are unvaccinated are carriers of measles". Illogical nonsense! A vaccinated person will carry said 'disease' just as easily as an unvaccinated person. There is no scientific evidence to prove that an vaccinated person is not a carrier of a disease. More false assumptions.

4. Measles is a respiratory problem. Thus, the cause will be dairy products which cause and excessive mucus reaction from the body's immune system. Dairy products are unnatural for humans and results in many lung related flu like symptoms. Thus, to stop all flu and measles type diseases it would be more effective to stop selling milk to uninformed people who think that milk is healthy. I was obliged to drink milk at school as the government supplied free milk to all schools when I was young. But for some reason I never drank the milk because I must have some kind of premonition that something was wrong here. Later, 30 years later, I found out that I was right. Milk is a poisonous substance that will block all your arteries and make you sick.

5. I see that you have come to the end of your short tether. You haven't replied to 90% of my previous statements which means that you have no rebuttal to my evidence. Therefore, I must conclude that you have conceded on this issue and that vitamins will protect against all disease and that there are no viruses.

Why are you telling these lies?
Do you want to spread illness and disease?
Perhaps it would be better if you went and learned something about science before you posted anything more  in this forum.


Do you want to protect the two hundred year old lie so that you have a nice secure job creating organophosphates that will cause more death and brain disease?

Chemists are responsible for-

1. Supporting and financing Adolf Hitler (I G Farben)

2. Murder of millions with halogen chemicals. (pesticides, fungicides and herbicides)

3. Fluoridation of water supply leading to deceased immune system efficiency and creating heart rhythm problems.

4. Creation of drug industry leading to millions of deaths due to drug overdoses.

Do you have no sense of shame?

And having the hide to blame it all on non-existent and invisible bugs!

Shame, shame shame!

http://ahealedplanet.net/medicine.htm
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: chiralSPO on 08/09/2016 05:15:38
chemists are also responsible for:

-all the drugs that treat heart disease, allow cancer patients to survive, prevent seizures, increased life expectancy by 50% since 1900 (and allows old men to have sex)

-all the materials that your computer are made of

-most of the food that you eat (fertilizers, pesticides and preservatives--sure people love to hate these things, but they also like to have fresh strawberries in February and beef for less than $20/lb)

-most of the dyes and a significant proportion of the textiles used to make clothes

-solar panels, LEDs, touch screens, lasers, and pretty much any technology developed in the last 200 years has been enabled by chemical research

So, yes, chemists and chemicals have done terrible things, but essentially all of the wonders and luxuries of the 21st century were also made possible by chemists.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 08/09/2016 17:23:44
chemists are also responsible for:

-all the drugs that treat heart disease, allow cancer patients to survive, prevent seizures, increased life expectancy by 50% since 1900 (and allows old men to have sex)

You forget that most of these problems are caused by modern technology. Heart attack, stroke and cancer are all caused by dairy, grain, alcohol and sugar which are products of the modern age of agriculture. People who live in primitive and remote villages in the jungle don't get any of these problems. Note - It was the agricultural revolution and city life that reduced life expectancy from 75 to 35 during the middle ages. We are only just recovering from the life expectancy depression that was commenced at the beginning of the agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago. Thus, grain, dairy and sugar are not suitable for humans and leads to 98% of all diseases.

Quote
Most of the food that you eat (fertilizers, pesticides and preservatives--sure people love to hate these things, but they also like to have fresh strawberries in February and beef for less than $20/lb)

Well, if you get contaminated with fertilizers, pesticides and preservatives, then don't expect to live very long! Personally, I try to avoid these chemicals as much as I can.


Quote
solar panels, LEDs, touch screens, lasers, and pretty much any technology developed in the last 200 years has been enabled by chemical research

So, yes, chemists and chemicals have done terrible things, but essentially all of the wonders and luxuries of the 21st century were also made possible by chemists.

If you just do away with grain, sugar and dairy products, then, you wouldn't need as many hospitals, aged care facilities and prisons. Note: And every person on Earth would be 20% wealthier as a result.*
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: chiralSPO on 08/09/2016 17:33:32
I won't deny that there are problems caused by modern technologies, but I don't think that your assessment is very accurate. More people die today of heart attack, cancer, and stroke because these are problems that typically kill old (>55 years) people. 300 years ago, most people never got that old because they died of something else first (like starvation, disease, or injury -- which, for the most part, are no longer fatal because of our technology.)

If you are so certain that "chemicals" and "processed foods" are the root of all disease, perhaps you should visit some of the isolated communities in South America, Central Africa, India, and Southeast Asia, and take note of the state of their health...
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 08/09/2016 22:24:50
"You forget that most of these problems are caused by modern technology. Heart attack, stroke and cancer are all caused by dairy, grain, alcohol and sugar which are products of the modern age of agriculture. People who live in primitive and remote villages in the jungle don't get any of these problems."

Guess again.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 08/09/2016 22:32:00
That idea has been dead for a long time.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: evan_au on 08/09/2016 22:54:19
Quote from: Atkhenaken
Quote from: evan_au
The discovery of "Mad Cow Disease" caused a fair amount of disbelief at the time - an infectious agent that has no genetic material!?

Prions are even less likely to exist than what viruses are.

Some recent research had a ship visiting oceans around the world, searching for genetic material in seawater. They weren't looking for viruses, they just wanted to sample any genetic material present in the water.

The results astonished them - there is an amazing amount of DNA floating around in seawater - and when they investigated, they found that much of it was in bacteriophage viruses.

These researchers were originally not trying to see anything - they were just looking for DNA with sensitive modern genetic techniques. And having found some DNA, it is relatively easy to consult databases and find what type of DNA it comes from.

Megavirus is another virus discovered in seawater.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megavirus#Discovery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_bacteriophage#Marine_phages
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 09/09/2016 01:04:56

If you are so certain that "chemicals" and "processed foods" are the root of all disease, perhaps you should visit some of the isolated communities in South America, Central Africa, India, and Southeast Asia, and take note of the state of their health...

The world is overpopulated because of technology and agriculture. People are forced to live in more and more remote places which don't fully support a healthy life. Their usual food sources are depleted and this creates starvation and disease.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 09/09/2016 01:22:17
Quote from: Atkhenaken
Quote from: evan_au
The discovery of "Mad Cow Disease" caused a fair amount of disbelief at the time - an infectious agent that has no genetic material!?

Prions are even less likely to exist than what viruses are.

Some recent research had a ship visiting oceans around the world, searching for genetic material in seawater. They weren't looking for viruses, they just wanted to sample any genetic material present in the water.

The results astonished them - there is an amazing amount of DNA floating around in seawater - and when they investigated, they found that much of it was in bacteriophage viruses.

These researchers were originally not trying to see anything - they were just looking for DNA with sensitive modern genetic techniques. And having found some DNA, it is relatively easy to consult databases and find what type of DNA it comes from.

Megavirus is another virus discovered in seawater.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megavirus#Discovery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_bacteriophage#Marine_phages

Not very convincing. Viruses found INSIDE bacteria. Why didn't they find them OUTSIDE the bacteria? Probably because they don't exist outside the bacteria and are just dead parts of the bacteria in the first place. More nonsense to justify a group of nincompoop scientists to spend countless years holidaying in exotic places pretending to find non-existent viruses. My opinion - A waste of money and time.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: evan_au on 10/09/2016 02:00:42
Quote from: evan_au
(1) If you eat Arsenic, you will get sick.
(2) If you eat food contaminated by Norovirus, you will get sick.
If you give a mouse a dose of Arsenic, you can see that it gets sick.
If you now take a microscopic sample from the sick mouse, and give it to a healthy mouse, the second mouse displays no symptoms (or very mild symptoms). That is because the Arsenic is a poison, which does not multiply itself.

If you give a mouse a dose of moue Norovirus, you can see that it gets sick.
If you now take a microscopic sample from the sick mouse, and give it to a healthy mouse, the second mouse also gets sick. That is because the Norovirus multiplies itself in the host to become the full-blown disease.

The ability to infect others is one of the hallmarks of a disease.

These days, our most sensitive tests are DNA sequencing, and so Koch's original postulates have been reformulated in terms of DNA detection. And viral DNA is a sign of a virus.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch%27s_postulates#Koch.E2.80.99s_postulates_for_the_21st_century
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 10/09/2016 03:34:36
Quote from: evan_au
(1) If you eat Arsenic, you will get sick.
(2) If you eat food contaminated by Norovirus, you will get sick.
If you give a mouse a dose of Arsenic, you can see that it gets sick.
If you now take a microscopic sample from the sick mouse, and give it to a healthy mouse, the second mouse displays no symptoms (or very mild symptoms). That is because the Arsenic is a poison, which does not multiply itself.

If you give a mouse a dose of moue Norovirus, you can see that it gets sick.
If you now take a microscopic sample from the sick mouse, and give it to a healthy mouse, the second mouse also gets sick. That is because the Norovirus multiplies itself in the host to become the full-blown disease.



The ability to infect others is one of the hallmarks of a disease.

These days, our most sensitive tests are DNA sequencing, and so Koch's original postulates have been reformulated in terms of DNA detection. And viral DNA is a sign of a virus.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch%27s_postulates#Koch.E2.80.99s_postulates_for_the_21st_century

Koch's postulates -

1. The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy organisms.
2. The microorganism must be isolated from a diseased organism and grown in pure culture.
3. The cultured microorganism should cause disease when introduced into a healthy organism.
4. The microorganism must be reisolated from the inoculated, diseased experimental host and identified as being identical to the original specific causative agent.

Research so far ...........

1. Never found in abundance in organism suffering from disease.
2. Microorganisms have never been successfully isolated and grown in a pure culture.
3. Doesn't always cause disease in a healthy organism.
4. Never has been re-isolated from the inoculated and identified from the original host.

Thus, germ theory is a fraud.


http://neue-medizin.com/lanka2.htm
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00705-013-1806-4
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/09/2016 15:57:53



Do you want to protect the two hundred year old lie so that you have a nice secure job creating organophosphates that will cause more death and brain disease?

Chemists are responsible for-

1. Supporting and financing Adolf Hitler (I G Farben)

2. Murder of millions with halogen chemicals. (pesticides, fungicides and herbicides)

3. Fluoridation of water supply leading to deceased immune system efficiency and creating heart rhythm problems.

4. Creation of drug industry leading to millions of deaths due to drug overdoses.

Do you have no sense of shame?

And having the hide to blame it all on non-existent and invisible bugs!

Shame, shame shame!

http://ahealedplanet.net/medicine.htm
1 It took more than funding to get Hitler into power. You also seem not to understand that there were chemists on both sides- and neither group was responsible for starting a war.
2 Why are you worried about the pests murdered by pesticides?
3 Fluorides don't do that and the process is under the control of the medical profession- not the chemists.
4 Drugs have been around a lot=longer than chemists. The drugs that chemists have created save lives (or the patients wouldn't have access to them because they would fail the tests)


So what would I have to be ashamed of?
I sent you a picture of the bugs- they are not invisible when you get enough of them..

Perhaps you could explain the outcome of a plaque assay without resorting to a virus  as an explanation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus_quantification

Or perhaps you should go away and learn some science. Maybe then you wouldn't post gibberish like the 4 "points" you raised earlier.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/09/2016 16:03:47

Koch's postulates -

1. The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy organisms.
2. The microorganism must be isolated from a diseased organism and grown in pure culture.
3. The cultured microorganism should cause disease when introduced into a healthy organism.
4. The microorganism must be reisolated from the inoculated, diseased experimental host and identified as being identical to the original specific causative agent.

Research so far ...........

1. Never found in abundance in organism suffering from disease.
2. Microorganisms have never been successfully isolated and grown in a pure culture.
3. Doesn't always cause disease in a healthy organism.
4. Never has been re-isolated from the inoculated and identified from the original host.

Thus, germ theory is a fraud.


So, you think that the fact that things have moved on since 1890 is a bad thing.

Your view is like saying that sex doesn't cause babies because sometimes it doesn't and (allegedly, at least once) there was a baby without  the parents having sex.

It's more complicated than that. We have realised that since Koch's day- and we have updated the postulates.


Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 12/09/2016 01:39:24

http://ahealedplanet.net/medicine.htm

1 It took more than funding to get Hitler into power. You also seem not to understand that there were chemists on both sides- and neither group was responsible for starting a war.

The support of I G Farben was the single most important factor in Hitler's rise to power. Note- The I G Farben building was never bombed during World War II and was used as a base by the Allies during their occupation. Reason - The Rockefeller's had a huge investment in I G Farben and they wanted to create a huge profit from causing a war so they could sell lots of drugs and chemicals.

http://beforeitsnews.com/war-and-conflict/2013/05/ig-farben-bayer-sopnsered-adolph-hitler-raign-and-was-the-biggest-profiteers-of-wwii-2446840.html

Quote
2 Why are you worried about the pests murdered by pesticides?

Sloppy thinking. Polio, Zika and BSE are all pesticide related problems.

http://www.naturalnews.com/054463_pesticides_diseases_infertility.html

Quote
4 Drugs have been around a lot=longer than chemists. The drugs that chemists have created save lives (or the patients wouldn't have access to them because they would fail the tests)

That's how the medical system works. First you make people sick and them you make them better. (for a sort period or until they get sick again)

Quote
So what would I have to be ashamed of?
I sent you a picture of the bugs- they are not invisible when you get enough of them..

You sent me a picture of a glass bottle with water in it. That's your evidence? lol! Pathetic!

Quote
Perhaps you could explain the outcome of a plaque assay without resorting to a virus  as an explanation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus_quantification

The plague assay is a fraudulent procedure. A virus needs a cell to multiply according to viral theory.

Steps in creating a petri dish medium -

1. Aspirate media and wash cells with 0.1M cacodylate buffer.

2. Fix with 4% PFA, 1% glutaraldehyde in 0.1M cacodylate for 1 h at room temp.

3. Wash cells 3x in 0.1M cacodylate.

4. Second fix in 1% osmium tetroxide in 0.1M cacodylate for 1 h at room temp.

4. Wash cells 3x dH20.

5. Gradually dehydrate in graded series of chilled ethanol for 15 min each at room temp (30%, 50%, 70%, 90%, 100% (x3 dry ethanol)).

6. Gradually infiltrate with resin at room temp. (30% overnight, 50% all day, 70% overnight, 100% all day, 100% overnight, 100% all day).

7. Invert coverslips (cell side down) onto full Beem capsules and polymerise overnight at 55 degrees Celcius.

8. Dip sample in liquid nitrogen to remove glass coverslip.

I seriously doubt any living thing could survive these processes. Thus, the final product is not living and is just dead cells which are putrefying and creating fungal growths.

Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 12/09/2016 01:46:53

So, you think that the fact that things have moved on since 1890 is a bad thing.

Your view is like saying that sex doesn't cause babies because sometimes it doesn't and (allegedly, at least once) there was a baby without  the parents having sex.

It's more complicated than that. We have realised that since Koch's day- and we have updated the postulates.


In other words - You haven't even started to justify his old postulates and now you are trying to create more complications and diversions so that nobody will ever find out about the terrible truth of the matter.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: RD on 12/09/2016 04:13:08
http://www.naturalnews.com ...

Quote from: RationalWiki.org
"If you cite NaturalNews on any matter whatsoever, you are almost certainly wrong."
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Natural_News

Quote from: wikipedia.org
David Gorski of ScienceBlogs, called Natural News "one of the most wretched hives of scum and quackery on the Internet," and the most "blatant purveyor of the worst kind of quackery and paranoid anti-physician and anti-medicine conspiracy theories anywhere on the Internet", and a one-stop-shop for "virtually every quackery known to humankind, all slathered with a heaping, helping of unrelenting hostility to science-based medicine and science in general."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_News#Criticism_and_controversies
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 12/09/2016 06:05:23
http://www.naturalnews.com ...

Quote from: RationalWiki.org
"If you cite NaturalNews on any matter whatsoever, you are almost certainly wrong."
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Natural_News

Quote from: wikipedia.org
David Gorski of ScienceBlogs, called Natural News "one of the most wretched hives of scum and quackery on the Internet," and the most "blatant purveyor of the worst kind of quackery and paranoid anti-physician and anti-medicine conspiracy theories anywhere on the Internet", and a one-stop-shop for "virtually every quackery known to humankind, all slathered with a heaping, helping of unrelenting hostility to science-based medicine and science in general."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_News#Criticism_and_controversies

Well, all medical practitioners are quacks; including allopathic and naturopathic. That is because good health doesn't require any medications, herbs, pills and/or other manipulations of the body etc. We have been deceived for the last 10,000 years by the agricultural revolution which introduced inappropriate foods which are the cause of 98 % of all disease. If you take away the grain, sugar, dairy and alcohol, then nobody would ever get sick. The other 2 % of disease is caused by fecal material and dangerous chemicals which may be added as food colouring, pesticides or as a preservative.

Why don't you respond to the evidence instead of creating diversions and distractions? Are YOU part of the corrupt system as well?
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: RD on 12/09/2016 09:22:37
... We have been deceived for the last 10,000 years by the agricultural revolution which introduced inappropriate foods which are the cause of 98 % of all disease. If you take away the grain, sugar, dairy and alcohol, then nobody would ever get sick.

Exponential-rise in human population says different ...
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpages.vassar.edu%2Frealarchaeology%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F09%2Fanthro-2.jpg&hash=14306c367b5412825468f815312d835f)
http://pages.vassar.edu/realarchaeology/2014/09/21/the-ethics-of-population-and-society/
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 12/09/2016 09:38:59
... We have been deceived for the last 10,000 years by the agricultural revolution which introduced inappropriate foods which are the cause of 98 % of all disease. If you take away the grain, sugar, dairy and alcohol, then nobody would ever get sick.

Exponential-rise in human population says different ...
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpages.vassar.edu%2Frealarchaeology%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F09%2Fanthro-2.jpg&hash=14306c367b5412825468f815312d835f)
http://pages.vassar.edu/realarchaeology/2014/09/21/the-ethics-of-population-and-society/

More people doesn't equate with quality of life. The more people you have the lower the quality of the food and the more disease. Thus, your graph doesn't prove anything.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: RD on 12/09/2016 19:25:23
More people doesn't equate with quality of life. The more people you have the lower the quality of the food and the more disease. Thus, your graph doesn't prove anything.

You claimed agriculture introduced a poisonous diet which caused "98 % of all disease".

If I had a rodent-infestation and gave them what I though was poison, but their population rose exponentially when I did that, then I've been giving them food instead of poison.

If a disease causing agent was delivered to most of a population then, (all other factors being equal), the population would decline, not rise. Also their average life expectancy would shorten.

In reality* average human life expectancy has risen, by ~50% in the last century ...

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openpop.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F11%2FChart1.jpg&hash=1f309ff133df6844501cea4f7f2195c9)
http://www.openpop.org/?p=695

* anyone who cites naturalnews as a reliable source of information is detached from reality : usually suffering from a paranoia (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Paranoia). 
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/09/2016 20:21:00
... We have been deceived for the last 10,000 years by the agricultural revolution which introduced inappropriate foods which are the cause of 98 % of all disease. If you take away the grain, sugar, dairy and alcohol, then nobody would ever get sick.

Exponential-rise in human population says different ...
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpages.vassar.edu%2Frealarchaeology%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F09%2Fanthro-2.jpg&hash=14306c367b5412825468f815312d835f)
http://pages.vassar.edu/realarchaeology/2014/09/21/the-ethics-of-population-and-society/

More people doesn't equate with quality of life. The more people you have the lower the quality of the food and the more disease. Thus, your graph doesn't prove anything.

Death indicates a very poor quality of life so your statement that "More people doesn't equate with quality of life." is on very shaky ground.
But nobody asked about quality of life. They talked about disease.
And reason the population is rising is simply that (relatively) fewer people are dying. Since accidents are a rare cause of death, more people not dying must mean fewer people getting diseases (and/ or they are more likely to recover).
So the graph shows that people are not getting killed by diseases as often or as young as they used to.
That makes your your claim that "the agricultural revolution which introduced inappropriate foods which are the cause of 98 % of all disease. " impossible.

So, what that graph proves is that you are wrong. (as you have been all along).
When are you going to face up to that?

Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: chiralSPO on 12/09/2016 21:08:10
It should also be noted that birth rates have fallen, so the increasing population cannot be blamed on increased reproduction--it must be due to decreased death rates.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 13/09/2016 01:30:56
More people doesn't equate with quality of life. The more people you have the lower the quality of the food and the more disease. Thus, your graph doesn't prove anything.

You claimed agriculture introduced a poisonous diet which caused "98 % of all disease".

If I had a rodent-infestation and gave them what I though was poison, but their population rose exponentially when I did that, then I've been giving them food instead of poison.

If a disease causing agent was delivered to most of a population then, (all other factors being equal), the population would decline, not rise. Also their average life expectancy would shorten.

In reality* average human life expectancy has risen, by ~50% in the last century ...

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openpop.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F11%2FChart1.jpg&hash=1f309ff133df6844501cea4f7f2195c9)
http://www.openpop.org/?p=695

* anyone who cites naturalnews as a reliable source of information is detached from reality : usually suffering from a paranoia (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Paranoia).


It has risen only because it has previously fallen. People are being kept alive when there diet has been killing them with cancer, diabetes and heart diseases. All these diseases are a result of poor diet which are high in grain, sugar and dairy products. Note - This post is about whether viruses exist - so I think you are getting a bit off track here.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 13/09/2016 01:38:47

Death indicates a very poor quality of life so your statement that "More people doesn't equate with quality of life." is on very shaky ground.
But nobody asked about quality of life. They talked about disease.
And reason the population is rising is simply that (relatively) fewer people are dying. Since accidents are a rare cause of death, more people not dying must mean fewer people getting diseases (and/ or they are more likely to recover).
So the graph shows that people are not getting killed by diseases as often or as young as they used to.
That makes your your claim that "the agricultural revolution which introduced inappropriate foods which are the cause of 98 % of all disease. " impossible.

So, what that graph proves is that you are wrong. (as you have been all along).
When are you going to face up to that?


Even your own graph is working against what you are saying. The graph that you have included clearly indicates that plagues occurred only when people started to congregate in large cities. The price to pay for population growth success is a reduced life expectancy. Prior to the agricultural revolution disease would have been unknown. Disease is a result of eating inappropriate foods which cause body dysfunctions. I agree that the human populations have increased due to agriculture and machinery. But disease is the price that humans have to pay for their success.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: RD on 13/09/2016 08:41:23
The price to pay for population growth success is a reduced life expectancy ...
The last graph I posted showed ~20% increase in average life-expectancy during the last 50 years, during which the world population has more than doubled (https://www.google.com/search?q=world+population+in+1960&oq=world+population+in+1960).
Yet you say "reduced life expectancy" with "population growth". Where is your data to corroborate that ?

... diet has been killing them with cancer ...
The increased incidence of cancer is due to the increased life expectancy, (as shown on my previous graph), as cancer is primarily a disease of old age ... http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/incidence/age#heading-Zero .
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 13/09/2016 15:50:49

Yet you say "reduced life expectancy" with "population growth". Where is your data to corroborate that ?

The graph that you have used starts just after World War II where millions of people were killed at a very young age. Thus, the low life expectancy. Why don't you use a 200 year graph which would be more useful?




... diet has been killing them with cancer ...
The increased incidence of cancer is due to the increased life expectancy, (as shown on my previous graph), as cancer is primarily a disease of old age ... http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/incidence/age#heading-Zero .
[/quote]

Cancer is not a disease of old age. Young babies can get cancer. Cancer is a disease of cell dysfunction due to an abnormal diet which causes the cancers to appear. It has multiple causes.
1. Blockages due to inflammation - grain food

2. Blockages due to glue like dairy products.

3. Reduced oxygen flow due to these blockages.

4. Lack of vitamin C which prevents the body from repairing damage to cells.

5. Lack of iodine which prevents apoptosis.

6. Lack of fibre which leads to bad gut bacteria.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: RD on 15/09/2016 00:21:14
... Why don't you use a 200 year graph which would be more useful? 

Why didn't you Google that graph yourself ? ...

(https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy.png?size=800x533&v=5e9f06e18c21c04a70876637b8c121a0)
https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy/

Cancer is not a disease of old age. Young babies can get cancer.

I never said exclusively, I said primarily old age. look at the graph below: cancer occurs at all ages, but it's incidence rises steeply with age ...

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenakedscientists.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D68196.0%3Battach%3D22229%3Bimage&hash=b352c49adbfddd72fa382f2e32bd8780)
http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/incidence/age#heading-Zero

Most cancer diagnoses are in retired-people (i.e. older than 65).

Cancer is a disease of cell dysfunction due to an abnormal diet ...

And corrective "dietary supplements" are all available via NaturalNews (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Natural_News)* , at extortionate prices.
[* who have taken advantage of your paranoia and brainwashed you to buy & push their products ].

You've spent too much time down Mike's gopher hole (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/GoodGopher).
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 15/09/2016 02:30:05
... Why don't you use a 200 year graph which would be more useful? 

Why didn't you Google that graph yourself ? ...

(https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy.png?size=800x533&v=5e9f06e18c21c04a70876637b8c121a0)
https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy/

Cancer is not a disease of old age. Young babies can get cancer.

I never said exclusively, I said primarily old age. look at the graph below: cancer occurs at all ages, but it's incidence rises steeply with age ...

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenakedscientists.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D68196.0%3Battach%3D22229%3Bimage&hash=b352c49adbfddd72fa382f2e32bd8780)
http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/incidence/age#heading-Zero

Most cancer diagnoses are in retired-people (i.e. older than 65).

Cancer is a disease of cell dysfunction due to an abnormal diet ...

And corrective "dietary supplements" are all available via NaturalNews (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Natural_News)* , at extortionate prices.
[* who have taken advantage of your paranoia and brainwashed you to buy & push their products ].

You've spent too much time down Mike's gopher hole (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/GoodGopher).

The graph just shows that people die of cancer at the exact same rate as any other form of death, so there is nothing exceptional about it. You have to die of something!
The deception is that the medical system puts a name to specific diseases. There is a list of thousands of diseases and treatments for these diseases. But, in reality, there is only one disease, which is VITAMIN DEFICIENCY. Therein lies the deception.
Note - The cost of cancer treatment is thousands of times more expensive than normal treatment. When you get cancer, they will give you some kind of diluted form of arsenic which they will give a fancy name to, so as to disguise what the real contents are. Note - Diluted arsenic doesn't cost thousands of dollars! It only costs a few cents to produce.
Thus, your complaint that naturopathic medicine is too expensive is totally unprecedented.

Life expectancy has increased due to new technology like sewerage works, refrigeration, electricity, trains, buses, air travel, water filtration, dams, irrigation etc. It has nothing to do with vaccination or any other medical procedure. The low life expectancy before 1890 was due to unsanitary living conditions, no refrigeration of food supply, poor sewerage system, pollution of water supply and lack of nutrition and knowledge of what constitutes good nutrition. Sugar, grain, alcohol and dairy being the cause of most early deaths at this time.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/09/2016 20:42:35
Things like better sewers  increase lifespan because they carry away dangerous viruses.

Arsenic is seldom used to treat cancer

It is known to cause it too.
cancer.http://www.toxipedia.org/display/toxipedia/Arsenic+Poisoning+in+Bangladesh

They don't give it a fancy name; they call it arsenic trioxide- because that's what it is.
http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/cancers-in-general/treatment/cancer-drugs/arsenic
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: chiralSPO on 15/09/2016 21:07:37
Life expectancy has increased due to new technology like sewerage works, refrigeration, electricity, trains, buses, air travel, water filtration, dams, irrigation etc. It has nothing to do with vaccination or any other medical procedure. The low life expectancy before 1890 was due to unsanitary living conditions, no refrigeration of food supply, poor sewerage system, pollution of water supply and lack of nutrition and knowledge of what constitutes good nutrition. Sugar, grain, alcohol and dairy being the cause of most early deaths at this time.

I have used boldface font to emphasize the parts of your post that help us argue that germ-caused diseases were addressed by technology, leading to increased life expectancy. Thank you.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 16/09/2016 01:30:28
Life expectancy has increased due to new technology like sewerage works, refrigeration, electricity, trains, buses, air travel, water filtration, dams, irrigation etc. It has nothing to do with vaccination or any other medical procedure. The low life expectancy before 1890 was due to unsanitary living conditions, no refrigeration of food supply, poor sewerage system, pollution of water supply and lack of nutrition and knowledge of what constitutes good nutrition. Sugar, grain, alcohol and dairy being the cause of most early deaths at this time.

I have used boldface font to emphasize the parts of your post that help us argue that germ-caused diseases were addressed by technology, leading to increased life expectancy. Thank you.

So YOU AGREE that there are NO GERMS OR VIRUSES which cause disease and that it is only rotten food that causes disease. Thanks for your confirmation!

You have cherry picked the all the conformist ideas which I would expect from a moderator.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: chiralSPO on 16/09/2016 01:44:51
So YOU AGREE that there are NO GERMS OR VIRUSES which cause disease and that it is only rotten food that causes disease. Thanks for your confirmation!

No, I do NOT AGREE. It can very easily be shown that rotten food causes disease because of the GERMS that live on it, and sewage is host to all manner of BACTERIA and that mosquitos transmit VIRUSES, BACTERIA and PROTISTS. Thanks for playing!
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 16/09/2016 01:54:56
Things like better sewers  increase lifespan because they carry away dangerous viruses.

It was never been proven that viruses exist. So how can you take away something that doesn't exist. Note - I have worked in an electron microscope unit, so don't try to bluff me with garbage.

Quote
Arsenic is seldom used to treat cancer

Maybe true, but they must include some kind of other toxic chemical to 'kill' the cancer. The whole approach is wrong though. The concept that 'the body' itself as 'the enemy' is a faulty concept. They are just covering up for the food industry and pharmaceutical industries which pumps out toxic chemicals and adds them to foods. All chemo therapy treatments contain either heavy metal toxins or halogen toxins. These may include arsenic, chlorine, fluorine or bromine. Note - These chemicals all cause cancer. Thus, they use the same chemicals to treat cancer as the ones that cause cancer. This is standard lunacy of the medical system. The reality is that people who have cancer are an embarrassment to the government and a constant reminder of their faulty policies. Thus, they want to dispose of these embarrassments as soon as possible. What better way to dispose of an embarrassment than to use the same causative agents.

Quote
They don't give it a fancy name; they call it arsenic trioxide- because that's what it is.
http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/cancers-in-general/treatment/cancer-drugs/arsenic

I have never heard a doctor say - "We are going to inject you with some arsenic now, don't worry, its for your own good, it will make you better, lol, good luck!"
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 16/09/2016 02:06:50
So YOU AGREE that there are NO GERMS OR VIRUSES which cause disease and that it is only rotten food that causes disease. Thanks for your confirmation!

No, I do NOT AGREE. It can very easily be shown that rotten food causes disease because of the GERMS that live on it, and sewage is host to all manner of BACTERIA and that mosquitos transmit VIRUSES, BACTERIA and PROTISTS. Thanks for playing!

These germs that are found in rotten food - where did they come from?

Health is all about harnessing good bacteria over bad bacteria. Bacteria belong in the lower intestine, not in the upper intestine. If you put bad bacteria in the upper intestine it will cause leaky gut syndrome and you will get sick.

http://bodyecology.com/articles/dr.-oz%E2%80%99s-leaky-gut-protocol-what-works-and-what%E2%80%99s-missing
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: RD on 16/09/2016 10:19:06
http://bodyecology.com/articles/dr.-oz

You're quoting Dr. Oz ! , see ... http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dr_Oz#Pigasus_Award

The graph just shows that people die of cancer at the exact same rate as any other form of death, so there is nothing exceptional about it.

The graph shows that the incidence of cancer increases steeply with age : so it's very rare in children, but common in the elderly (http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=68196.0;attach=22229;image). The graph did not compare cancer with other "forms" of death , (death from road traffic accidents would have a completely different age distribution, not "exact same rate").

... they must include some kind of other toxic chemical to 'kill' the cancer.

Viruses, which you claim don't exist, are also used to preferentially kill cancer cells, see ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oncolytic_virus


... in reality, there is only one disease, which is VITAMIN DEFICIENCY ...

So that means genetic illness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_disorder#Single-gene) & disease caused by bacteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteria#Pathogens) , helminths (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminths)  , protozoans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protozoa#In_humans), (along with viruses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus#Role_in_human_disease)) are fictional , according to you.

I think we should have you French-kiss a person with Ebola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus_disease) to prove your point.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/09/2016 15:58:27
So YOU AGREE that there are NO GERMS OR VIRUSES which cause disease and that it is only rotten food that causes disease. Thanks for your confirmation!

No, I do NOT AGREE. It can very easily be shown that rotten food causes disease because of the GERMS that live on it, and sewage is host to all manner of BACTERIA and that mosquitos transmit VIRUSES, BACTERIA and PROTISTS. Thanks for playing!

These germs that are found in rotten food - where did they come from?

Health is all about harnessing good bacteria over bad bacteria. Bacteria belong in the lower intestine, not in the upper intestine. If you put bad bacteria in the upper intestine it will cause leaky gut syndrome and you will get sick.

http://bodyecology.com/articles/dr.-oz%E2%80%99s-leaky-gut-protocol-what-works-and-what%E2%80%99s-missing

Unless you are in the habit of giving yourself an enema with dirty water, there's no way for the bacteria to get to the bottom end of the gut except through the top end- so your plan makes no sense.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 17/09/2016 01:49:23


Health is all about harnessing good bacteria over bad bacteria. Bacteria belong in the lower intestine, not in the upper intestine. If you put bad bacteria in the upper intestine it will cause leaky gut syndrome and you will get sick.

http://bodyecology.com/articles/dr.-oz%E2%80%99s-leaky-gut-protocol-what-works-and-what%E2%80%99s-missing
Quote

Unless you are in the habit of giving yourself an enema with dirty water, there's no way for the bacteria to get to the bottom end of the gut except through the top end- so your plan makes no sense.

Extract from a medical textbook -

Composition and Distribution of the Intestinal Microflora

The intestinal microflora is a complex ecosystem containing over 400 bacterial species. Anaerobes outnumber facultative anaerobes. The flora is sparse in the stomach and upper intestine, but luxuriant in the lower bowel. Bacteria occur both in the lumen and attached to the mucosa, but do not normally penetrate the bowel wall .

I rest my case! Makes no sense........... eh?
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: chiralSPO on 17/09/2016 02:09:21
sparse ≠ nonexistent
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 17/09/2016 02:11:48

So that means genetic illness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_disorder#Single-gene) & disease caused by bacteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteria#Pathogens) , helminths (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminths)  , protozoans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protozoa#In_humans), (along with viruses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus#Role_in_human_disease)) are fictional , according to you.

I think we should have you French-kiss a person with Ebola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus_disease) to prove your point.


When are you guys gonna stop protecting the pharmaceutical industry from litigation and from constantly poisoning the general public with pesticides and then blaming it all on invisible and non-existent viruses?

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/another-missing-ebola-factor-pesticides/
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: RD on 17/09/2016 08:17:37
... the pharmaceutical industry from litigation and from constantly poisoning the general public with pesticides and then blaming it all on invisible and non-existent viruses?

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/another-missing-ebola-factor-pesticides/

Jon is loony-tunes ... http://americanloons.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/1050-jon-rappoport.html

Jon don't like GMOs.  Guess what's used to make GMOs ? ,
Clue: 5 letters, begins with a "v", and you don't believe they exist. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_organism#Production)
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/09/2016 12:11:21


When are you guys gonna stop protecting the pharmaceutical industry from litigation and from constantly poisoning the general public with pesticides and then blaming it all on invisible and non-existent viruses?


When are you going to start thinking about stuff before you post?
The pharmaceutical industry isn't related  to pesticide production.

Viruses are visible- I cited a picture earlier.

The diseases existed before pharmacy- and now the pharmaceuticals treat the diseases.
That's why we live longer.
That's how we wiped out smallpox.
That's why people still get sick, even if they take vitamins.

None of your claims makes any sense.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 17/09/2016 23:28:06
When are you guys gonna stop protecting the pharmaceutical industry from litigation and from constantly poisoning the general public with pesticides

Got peer-reviewed evidence?

I need something to wash the BS down with.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 18/09/2016 00:44:16
but they must include some kind of other toxic chemical to 'kill' the cancer.

There are other alternatives which are not systemically cytotoxic: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=intravenous+curcumin+cancer


The whole approach is wrong though. The concept that 'the body' itself as 'the enemy' is a faulty concept.

That's not the "approach" at all. The proliferation of malignant cells is "the enemy".
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 18/09/2016 03:28:09

Jon is loony-tunes ... http://americanloons.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/1050-jon-rappoport.html

Jon don't like GMOs.  Guess what's used to make GMOs ? ,
Clue: 5 letters, begins with a "v", and you don't believe they exist. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_organism#Production)

Of course! Any dictatorship will label its dissenters as 'loony'. That's all part of the deception and brainwashing techniques that they use to control and manipulate.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 18/09/2016 03:38:44

When are you going to start thinking about stuff before you post?
The pharmaceutical industry isn't related  to pesticide production.

10,000 reasons why you are wrong lol!

http://npic.orst.edu/ingred/manuf.htm

Quote
Viruses are visible- I cited a picture earlier.

A picture of a glass jar with muddy water in it doesn't equate with evidence.

Quote
The diseases existed before pharmacy- and now the pharmaceuticals treat the diseases.
That's why we live longer.
That's how we wiped out smallpox.
That's why people still get sick, even if they take vitamins.

None of your claims makes any sense.

All false information.
I have posted the distribution graphs of pesticides in West Africa which shows the true cause of Ebola.

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/category/ebola/
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 18/09/2016 03:50:57

That's not the "approach" at all. The malignant cells are "the enemy".

Modern medicine operates on the basic principle that the human body is faulty and that only doctors know how to fix it. Unfortunately, it is the modern diet which causes 98 % of all disease. Thus, all their years of training on medical procedures has been wasted because they don't understand the basics of what causes the problems in the first place. The current system was developed hundreds of years ago when nothing was known about nutrition and vitamins and little has changed in this original concept. But, like any bureaucracy, it takes a revolution to change old redundant ideas. But, unfortunately, there is no money in the new system which would send most doctors to the poor house. Thus, the old system is here to stay! Too bad if millions have to die a premature death. Doctors need to support their huge egos and incomes.

http://ahealedplanet.net/medicine.htm
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: RD on 18/09/2016 07:11:44
http://ahealedplanet.net/medicine.htm

Quote from: Wade Frazier
"Welcome to this website.  If you are interested in free energy, cancer cures ..."
http://ahealedplanet.net

Conspiracy-theories (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory), like suppressed "free energy (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Free_energy_suppression)" &  suppressed cancer cures (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine) don't withstand any analysis , e.g. ...

Would America fight trillion-dollar wars in the middle-east to ensure supplies of energy in the form of mineral-oil, if "free energy" technology existed ?.

How does American-pharma-mafia suppress these cancer-cures in, say, China & North Korea ?.

Why should China & North Korea suppress these cancer-cures, to the detriment of their own people,  for the financial-benefit of capitalist pig-dogs in the USA ?


Only the paranoid (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Paranoia) would repeat this "suppression" nonsense.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 18/09/2016 09:45:40
http://ahealedplanet.net/medicine.htm

Quote from: Wade Frazier
"Welcome to this website.  If you are interested in free energy, cancer cures ..."
http://ahealedplanet.net

Conspiracy-theories (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory), like suppressed "free energy (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Free_energy_suppression)" &  suppressed cancer cures (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine) don't withstand any analysis , e.g. ...

Would America fight trillion-dollar wars in the middle-east to ensure supplies of energy in the form of mineral-oil, if "free energy" technology existed ?.

How does American-pharma-mafia suppress these cancer-cures in, say, China & North Korea ?.

Why should China & North Korea suppress these cancer-cures, to the detriment of their own people,  for the financial-benefit of capitalist pig-dogs in the USA ?


Only the paranoid (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Paranoia) would repeat this "suppression" nonsense.

Just address the topic. 'The Medical Racket' reference. You are getting off track and becoming nonsensical.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/09/2016 10:30:46

When are you going to start thinking about stuff before you post?
The pharmaceutical industry isn't related  to pesticide production.

10,000 reasons why you are wrong lol!

http://npic.orst.edu/ingred/manuf.htm

Quote
Viruses are visible- I cited a picture earlier.

A picture of a glass jar with muddy water in it doesn't equate with evidence.

Quote
The diseases existed before pharmacy- and now the pharmaceuticals treat the diseases.
That's why we live longer.
That's how we wiped out smallpox.
That's why people still get sick, even if they take vitamins.

None of your claims makes any sense.

All false information.
I have posted the distribution graphs of pesticides in West Africa which shows the true cause of Ebola.

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/category/ebola/

Since you don't know the difference between aspirin- as sold by pharmacy and weedkiller- as sold by agriculture, it is clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.

If you think muddy water is white, you are not paying attention to the real world.

It is not false to claim that we wiped out smallpox.
You know that and you are lying about it.
The same goes for the vitamins and lifespan.

"Jon" has been discredited already.

Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/09/2016 10:32:42


Just address the topic. 'The Medical Racket' reference. You are getting off track and becoming nonsensical.

That's not the topic.
The topic is about viruses- which exist.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 18/09/2016 10:50:36

If you think muddy water is white, you are not paying attention to the real world.

Water is white? You clearly have a kindergarten understanding of water. Water is clear - dummy!
Quote
It is not false to claim that we wiped out smallpox.

 But, is it false to claim that small pox was a virus when they didn't have any electron microscopes 200 years ago. Thus, they didn't have a clue what was causing people to die. But, now we know that it was just volcanic ash that was destroying the agricultural products which resulted in mass starvation and vitamin deficiency.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3301214/Biblical-plagues-and-parting-of-Red-Sea-caused-by-volcano.html


Quote
You know that and you are lying about it.
The same goes for the vitamins and lifespan.

You can test my theory yourself. Just stop eating dairy, sugar and grain and you will have no further illnesses, headaches, stomach aches, arthritis, blocked nose and other so called 'flu like symptoms'.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 18/09/2016 12:03:36
I have posted the distribution graphs of pesticides in West Africa which shows the true cause of Ebola.

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/category/ebola/

QUOTES FROM YOUR LINK:  "there is no proof that HIV exists."

"there is no proof of the isolation of a retrovirus from AIDS patients. [HIV is said to be a retrovirus]"



lol.... Try using references that aren't chock full o' manure.


Science. 1986 Jul 18;233(4761):343-6.
Isolation of a new human retrovirus from West African patients with AIDS.
Clavel F, Guétard D, Brun-Vézinet F, Chamaret S, Rey MA, Santos-Ferreira MO, Laurent AG, Dauguet C, Katlama C, Rouzioux C, et al.

The etiological agent of AIDS, LAV/HTLV-III, is common in Central Africa but is not endemic in other areas of that continent. A novel human retrovirus, distinct from LAV/HTLV-III, has now been isolated from two AIDS patients from West Africa. Partial characterization of this virus revealed that it has biological and morphological properties very similar to LAV but that it differs in some of its antigenic components. Although the core antigens may share some common epitopes, the West African AIDS retrovirus and LAV differ substantially in their envelope glycoproteins. The envelope antigen of the West African virus can be recognized by serum from a macaque with simian AIDS infected by the simian retrovirus termed STLV-IIImac, suggesting that the West African AIDS virus may be more closely related to this simian virus than to LAV. Hybridization experiments with LAV subgenomic probes further established that this new retrovirus, here referred to as LAV-II, is distantly related to LAV and distinct from STLV-IIImac.
PMID: 2425430
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 18/09/2016 12:28:18
A picture of a glass jar with muddy water in it doesn't equate with evidence.

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn-http.innerbody.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2FHIV%2520virions.png&hash=2eafcffbe132a621a0a586e28c9a094b)


Color-enhanced Transmission Electron Micrograph..... I guess you didn't get the memo.

http://cdn-http.innerbody.com/sites/default/files/HIV%20virions.png


~
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 18/09/2016 12:44:41
So what causes disease then? The answer is that the modern diet is responsible. Sugar, grain, dairy and alcohol are all unnatural products which the human digestive system can't cope with and many people get sick because of this. That accounts for 98% of all disease. The other 2% of disease can be blamed on consumption of fecal material, pesticides, fungicides, heavy metals and halogens. (chlorine, fluorine and bromine)
 

2 words = neonatal meningitis



~
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 18/09/2016 12:52:59
The evidence I presented dismantled your theory within 3 posts.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 18/09/2016 13:04:08
A picture of a glass jar with muddy water in it doesn't equate with evidence.

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn-http.innerbody.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2FHIV%2520virions.png&hash=2eafcffbe132a621a0a586e28c9a094b)


Color-enhanced Transmission Electron Micrograph..... I guess you didn't get the memo.

http://cdn-http.innerbody.com/sites/default/files/HIV%20virions.png


~

Looks like all natural cells to me. I don't see any viruses? Can be T-cells, B-cells, Natural Killer Cells, macrophages or mieloblasts.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 18/09/2016 13:08:02
So what causes disease then? The answer is that the modern diet is responsible. Sugar, grain, dairy and alcohol are all unnatural products which the human digestive system can't cope with and many people get sick because of this. That accounts for 98% of all disease. The other 2% of disease can be blamed on consumption of fecal material, pesticides, fungicides, heavy metals and halogens. (chlorine, fluorine and bromine)
 

2 words = neonatal meningitis



~

Huh?
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 18/09/2016 13:18:18
Looks like all natural cells to me. I don't see any viruses?


Suddenly I'm reminded of a Farrelly brothers movie.....


(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frs1272.pbsrc.com%2Falbums%2Fy392%2FDoctorLime%2FGifs%2FSarcastic%2520Mean%2520and%2520Comebacks%2FKmwYpbo_zps27599e63.gif%7Ec200&hash=0734a14c3f7a6f173927d2f811e9f75e)
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 18/09/2016 13:30:58
So what causes disease then? The answer is that the modern diet is responsible. Sugar, grain, dairy and alcohol are all unnatural products which the human digestive system can't cope with and many people get sick because of this. That accounts for 98% of all disease. The other 2% of disease can be blamed on consumption of fecal material, pesticides, fungicides, heavy metals and halogens. (chlorine, fluorine and bromine)
 

2 words = neonatal meningitis



~

Huh?

Look up the etiology of neonatal meningitis.

Then try applying your warped theory.

Not happening.

Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 18/09/2016 13:34:57
I have posted the distribution graphs of pesticides in West Africa which shows the true cause of Ebola.

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/category/ebola/

QUOTES FROM YOUR LINK:  "there is no proof that HIV exists."

"there is no proof of the isolation of a retrovirus from AIDS patients. [HIV is said to be a retrovirus]"



lol.... Try using references that aren't chock full o' manure.


Science. 1986 Jul 18;233(4761):343-6.
Isolation of a new human retrovirus from West African patients with AIDS.
Clavel F, Guétard D, Brun-Vézinet F, Chamaret S, Rey MA, Santos-Ferreira MO, Laurent AG, Dauguet C, Katlama C, Rouzioux C, et al.

The etiological agent of AIDS, LAV/HTLV-III, is common in Central Africa but is not endemic in other areas of that continent. A novel human retrovirus, distinct from LAV/HTLV-III, has now been isolated from two AIDS patients from West Africa. Partial characterization of this virus revealed that it has biological and morphological properties very similar to LAV but that it differs in some of its antigenic components. Although the core antigens may share some common epitopes, the West African AIDS retrovirus and LAV differ substantially in their envelope glycoproteins. The envelope antigen of the West African virus can be recognized by serum from a macaque with simian AIDS infected by the simian retrovirus termed STLV-IIImac, suggesting that the West African AIDS virus may be more closely related to this simian virus than to LAV. Hybridization experiments with LAV subgenomic probes further established that this new retrovirus, here referred to as LAV-II, is distantly related to LAV and distinct from STLV-IIImac.
PMID: 2425430

^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 18/09/2016 13:55:01

Look up the etiology of neonatal meningitis.

Then try applying your warped theory.

Not happening.

Still don't get what you are on about?

Try using more than two words to describe something. It should work wonders for you! lol!
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/09/2016 14:30:07
A picture of a glass jar with muddy water in it doesn't equate with evidence.

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn-http.innerbody.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2FHIV%2520virions.png&hash=2eafcffbe132a621a0a586e28c9a094b)


Color-enhanced Transmission Electron Micrograph..... I guess you didn't get the memo.

http://cdn-http.innerbody.com/sites/default/files/HIV%20virions.png


~

Looks like all natural cells to me. I don't see any viruses? Can be T-cells, B-cells, Natural Killer Cells, macrophages or mieloblasts.

Look carefully. They are highlighted in green for you.
(The scale is all wrong for the joke suggestions you made)
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/09/2016 14:33:42

Look up the etiology of neonatal meningitis.

Then try applying your warped theory.

Not happening.

Still don't get what you are on about?

Try using more than two words to describe something. It should work wonders for you! lol!
It doesn't matter how many words we use- because you ignore them anyway.
Perhaps you should go and work in a field hospital treating people with Ebola or some similar viral infection. Since there are no viruses, you won't need any protective equipment. You can turn up with lots of vitamins and, shortly afterwards, you will either be proved right- or (in all sensible probability, you will die.

Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 18/09/2016 14:34:45

Look up the etiology of neonatal meningitis.

Then try applying your warped theory.

Not happening.

Still don't get what you are on about?

Try using more than two words to describe something. It should work wonders for you! lol!

If viruses and pathogens don't exist, and....  "the modern diet accounts for 98% of all disease. The other 2% of disease can be blamed on consumption of fecal material, pesticides, fungicides, heavy metals and halogens....

Then how do you explain the etiology and/or pathogenesis of neonatal meningitis?


Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 18/09/2016 14:47:19
I don't see any viruses? Can be T-cells, B-cells, Natural Killer Cells, macrophages or mieloblasts.

Like it or not.... the highlighted green are emergent/premature HIV-1 virions, confirmed via CTEM.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 18/09/2016 15:23:55


Looks like all natural cells to me. I don't see any viruses? Can be T-cells, B-cells, Natural Killer Cells, macrophages or mieloblasts.

Look carefully. They are highlighted in green for you.
(The scale is all wrong for the joke suggestions you made)
[/quote]

How do you know that they are HIV viruses?

1. Is it because somebody painted them a nice green colour for you?

2. Is It because because viruses are green?

3. Or is it because only HIV viruses look like little indistinctive anonymous blobs? lol!
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 18/09/2016 15:26:23
I don't see any viruses? Can be T-cells, B-cells, Natural Killer Cells, macrophages or mieloblasts.

Like it or not.... the highlighted green are emergent/premature HIV-1 virions, confirmed via CTEM.

What distinguishes these from regular cells that might be found in blood?
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 18/09/2016 16:16:18
What distinguishes these from regular cells that might be found in blood?

virion (vī′rē-ŏn′, vîr′ē-)
A complete viral particle, consisting of RNA or DNA surrounded by a protein shell and constituting the infective form of a virus.


Pick up a textbook.

~
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: jeffreyH on 18/09/2016 17:10:26
Bored Chemist, Exothermic and others have provided ample sources that show that viruses do in fact exist. What exactly do you hope to prove here?
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/09/2016 17:46:56
I don't see any viruses? Can be T-cells, B-cells, Natural Killer Cells, macrophages or mieloblasts.

Like it or not.... the highlighted green are emergent/premature HIV-1 virions, confirmed via CTEM.

What distinguishes these from regular cells that might be found in blood?
Being a thousand times smaller
Being infections
Having different DNA
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 19/09/2016 01:16:42

virion (vī′rē-ŏn′, vîr′ē-)
A complete viral particle, consisting of RNA or DNA surrounded by a protein shell and constituting the infective form of a virus.


Pick up a textbook.

~

So, now you are resorting to shouting in large bright red colours to prove your point. But your evidence is completely vacuous and lacking any detail or logic.

1. There is no size scale on the picture.

2. There is no description of what part of the body this is.

3. There are no distinguishing features which tell us that these are HIV viruses.

4. How can you distinguish or know that a virus is budding or not budding?

5. How can something that requires the internal mechanisms of a cell to grow; suddenly grow, outside of a cell environment?

All illogical nonsense!
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 19/09/2016 01:24:11

Being a thousand times smaller
Being infections
Having different DNA

1. No size scale indicated - Thus - False

2. Has never been duplicated in a petri dish using a medium from to separate individuals.  - Thus - False

3. Doesn't have any DNA - Thus - False
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/09/2016 21:24:29
" No size scale indicated - Thus - False"
If I showed you a picture of a man with a mouse in his hand and said that the man was bigger than the mouse would you say that isn't true because he is not holding a ruler?
The size is indicated by the presence of a cell in the picture. The virus particles are about a thousand times smaller.
did you not understand that?


"Has never been duplicated in a petri dish using a medium from to separate individuals."
Yes it has. In particular with Norovirus because it's difficult to culture ( a recent breakthrough means they no longer have to use human volunteers.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160825172254.htm

" Doesn't have any DNA - Thus - False"
Yes they do. Here's an article about the chickenpox virus genome
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3413377/

It doesn't help when you say things that simply are not true.

It seems rude to ask but, do you have some sort of learning disorder that stops you understanding things like not needing a scale to see if one thing is bigger than another?

Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 20/09/2016 00:10:18

1. There is no size scale on the picture - Thus - False

lol.... Next?

(https://i2.wp.com/phil.cdc.gov/PHIL_Images/11279/11279_lores.jpg?zoom=2)



2. There is no description of what part of the body this is.

That's because the virions are budding from a [cultured] lymphocyte genius.



3. There are no distinguishing features which tell us that these are HIV viruses.

lol....  The "distinguishing features" of the virus are well-documented, and that was merely a pic of the [early] stages of HIV-1 virion morphogenesis.



4. How can you distinguish or know that a virus is budding or not budding?

"Virion morphogenesis can be divided into three stages: assembly, wherein the virion is created and essential components are packaged; budding, wherein the virion crosses the plasma membrane and obtains its lipid envelope; and maturation, wherein the virion changes structure and becomes infectious." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385941/


Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 20/09/2016 00:17:58
5. How can something that requires the internal mechanisms of a cell to grow; suddenly grow, outside of a cell environment?


(https://media3.giphy.com/media/a0FuPjiLZev4c/200_s.gif)
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 20/09/2016 01:38:29
" No size scale indicated - Thus - False"
If I showed you a picture of a man with a mouse in his hand and said that the man was bigger than the mouse would you say that isn't true because he is not holding a ruler?
The size is indicated by the presence of a cell in the picture. The virus particles are about a thousand times smaller.
did you not understand that?

Still no size scale! - Thus false. Unscientific idiotic nonsense! To be a scientist, you MUST use scientific methodologies. The reason they keep omitting size scale references is because they are committing a fraud and don't want to get caught!

Quote
"Has never been duplicated in a petri dish using a medium from to separate individuals."
Yes it has. In particular with Norovirus because it's difficult to culture ( a recent breakthrough means they no longer have to use human volunteers.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160825172254.htm

Norovirus - or other wise known as 'cruise ship disease'. People who travel on cruises eat and live like imbeciles with little sleep, too much alcohol, bad diet and very little exercise. Thus, this is the reason that they get sick and has nothing to do with viruses. Again - dairy, sugar and grain the main cause - resulting in leaky gut syndrome.

Quote
" Doesn't have any DNA - Thus - False"
Yes they do. Here's an article about the chickenpox virus genome
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3413377/

The whole virus identification process is a fraud. Separation of similar sized particles in a spinning test tube doesn't equate with a virus. Garbage!


Quote
It seems rude to ask but, do you (ya) have some sort of learning disorder that stops you (ya) understanding things like not needing a scale to see if one thing is bigger than another (punk)?

Well do ya feel lucky punk? Well, do ya? ( Dirty Harry?) lol!

Do you have any more movie equivalent quips?
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 20/09/2016 01:54:30

lol.... Next?

No reasonable reply - Thus, still false. Providing a bigger picture (enlarged) which doesn't include a size scale is still unscientific nonsense.





Quote

That's because the virions are budding from a [cultured] lymphocyte genius.

There are still no distinguishing features. The pictures vary significantly from the text book version where the viruses have small receptor attachments on the outside. Looks like small green cotton buds to me!

Quote
"Virion morphogenesis can be divided into three stages: assembly, wherein the virion is created and essential components are packaged; budding, wherein the virion crosses the plasma membrane and obtains its lipid envelope; and maturation, wherein the virion changes structure and becomes infectious." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385941/

Its all just computer generated and fabricated nonsense to justify and prevent billions of dollars in litigation by the general public. Bad diet causes disease and that's that. Viruses are just normal body produced hormones and cells which the body uses to rid itself of unwanted pollution and garbage which the stupid person has allowed to enter their bodies. End of story! Get with it! Don't support criminal medical organisations and other fraudsters.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 20/09/2016 02:39:16
No reasonable reply - Thus, still false. Providing a bigger picture (enlarged) which doesn't include a size scale is still unscientific nonsense.

rofl.... Ever hear of the nanometer scale genius?

* note the 100 nm at the bottom right corner *

Oh and viruses average around 30-50 nm

(https://i2.wp.com/phil.cdc.gov/PHIL_Images/11279/11279_lores.jpg?zoom=2)
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 20/09/2016 02:46:54
The pictures vary significantly from the text book version

Let's see Atkhenaken's "textbook version"?
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 20/09/2016 02:55:41
Its all just computer generated and fabricated nonsense to justify and prevent billions of dollars in litigation by the general public.

yes


Bad diet causes disease and that's that.

yes


Viruses are just normal body produced hormones and cells which the body uses to rid itself of unwanted pollution and garbage which the stupid person has allowed to enter their bodies.

yes


End of story! Get with it! Don't support criminal medical organisations and other fraudsters.

yes

(https://themarshallreport.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/sand-bury-head-here.jpg)
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 20/09/2016 03:10:52
No reasonable reply - Thus, still false. Providing a bigger picture (enlarged) which doesn't include a size scale is still unscientific nonsense.

rofl.... Ever hear of the nanometer scale genius?

So, you added a scale which wasn't there before. Good Photoshop skills. I congratulate you! Soooooooooorrrrrrry.............. but the horse has already bolted! lol

The fraud has been exposed!




Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 20/09/2016 03:51:55
So, you added a scale which wasn't there before. Good Photoshop skills. I congratulate you! Soooooooooorrrrrrry.............. but the horse has already bolted! lol The fraud has been exposed!

I didn't "add" anything to the picture and nobody photoshopped it either rofl.....

If you would like to take issue with the credibility of the picture, perhaps you should contact CDC/ C. Goldsmith, P. Feorino, E. L. Palmer, & W. R. McManus.

Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 20/09/2016 03:57:29
So, you added a scale which wasn't there before. Good Photoshop skills. I congratulate you! Soooooooooorrrrrrry.............. but the horse has already bolted! lol The fraud has been exposed!

I didn't "add" anything to the picture and nobody photoshopped it either rofl.....

If you would like to take issue with the credibility of the picture, perhaps you should contact CDC/ C. Goldsmith, P. Feorino, E. L. Palmer, & W. R. McManus.

You still have a long, long way to go.

2. There is no description of what part of the body this is.

3. There are no distinguishing features which tell us that these are HIV viruses.

4. How can you distinguish or know that a virus is budding or not budding?

5. How can something that requires the internal mechanisms of a cell to grow; suddenly grow, outside of a cell environment?

6. There are no exterior receptor nodules which are apparent in the text (digital) diagrams.

Note - The electron microscope is hopeless at photographing soft squishy objects such as cells. Its only practical application is for hard materials such as rock or metallic objects.

The fact remains that grain, sugar, alcohol and dairy cause 98 % of all disease. Just take away these unnecessary products and you can stop most diseases. Wake up to the scam!
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: RD on 20/09/2016 08:38:19
Note - The electron microscope is hopeless at photographing soft squishy objects such as cells. Its only practical application is for hard materials such as rock or metallic objects.

Really ? (http://www.sciencephoto.com/search?subtype=keywords&searchstring=sem+cell+division)
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 20/09/2016 12:32:52
Note - I have worked in an electron microscope unit, so don't try to bluff me with garbage.

Note - The electron microscope is hopeless at photographing soft squishy objects such as cells. Its only practical application is for hard materials such as rock or metallic objects.

Can we hear more about this "electron microscope unit"???

Did the equipment look like this by chance:

(https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/thisdayintech/2011/04/electron_microscope.jpg)
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/09/2016 19:53:53
" No size scale indicated - Thus - False"
If I showed you a picture of a man with a mouse in his hand and said that the man was bigger than the mouse would you say that isn't true because he is not holding a ruler?
The size is indicated by the presence of a cell in the picture. The virus particles are about a thousand times smaller.
did you not understand that?

Still no size scale! - Thus false. Unscientific idiotic nonsense! To be a scientist, you MUST use scientific methodologies. The reason they keep omitting size scale references is because they are committing a fraud and don't want to get caught!

Quote
"Has never been duplicated in a petri dish using a medium from to separate individuals."
Yes it has. In particular with Norovirus because it's difficult to culture ( a recent breakthrough means they no longer have to use human volunteers.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160825172254.htm

Norovirus - or other wise known as 'cruise ship disease'. People who travel on cruises eat and live like imbeciles with little sleep, too much alcohol, bad diet and very little exercise. Thus, this is the reason that they get sick and has nothing to do with viruses. Again - dairy, sugar and grain the main cause - resulting in leaky gut syndrome.

Quote
" Doesn't have any DNA - Thus - False"
Yes they do. Here's an article about the chickenpox virus genome
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3413377/

The whole virus identification process is a fraud. Separation of similar sized particles in a spinning test tube doesn't equate with a virus. Garbage!


Quote
It seems rude to ask but, do you (ya) have some sort of learning disorder that stops you (ya) understanding things like not needing a scale to see if one thing is bigger than another (punk)?

Well do ya feel lucky punk? Well, do ya? ( Dirty Harry?) lol!

Do you have any more movie equivalent quips?
Setting aside the observation that the picture does have a scale bar- that you didn't notice- you still don't need a ruler to see that a man holding a mouse is bigger than the mouse.



"Norovirus - or other wise known as 'cruise ship disease'. People who travel on cruises eat and live like imbeciles with little sleep, too much alcohol, bad diet and very little exercise. Thus, this is the reason that they get sick "
OK, why do their doctors + nurses- who are not on holiday and don't behave like that- also get sick?
Here's a hint- it's an infectious agent.
Specifically- it's a virus.

"Separation of similar sized particles in a spinning test tube doesn't equate with a virus."
How fortunate that nobody said that it was.
Did you think you were making a point?

Again, things like this
"Well do ya feel lucky punk? Well, do ya? ( Dirty Harry?) lol!

Do you have any more movie equivalent quips?"
leave me wondering if you need help.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 21/09/2016 01:21:48

Quote
OK, why do their doctors + nurses- who are not on holiday and don't behave like that- also get sick?
Here's a hint- it's an infectious agent.
Specifically- it's a virus.

"Separation of similar sized particles in a spinning test tube doesn't equate with a virus."
How fortunate that nobody said that it was.
Did you think you were making a point?

Again, things like this
"Well do ya feel lucky punk? Well, do ya? ( Dirty Harry?) lol!

Do you have any more movie equivalent quips?"
leave me wondering if you need help.

Hmm? More junk mail again! Nothing important to say? No refutations or serious comments? Oh well, I guess I'll have to wait till I get an intelligent response. lol!
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/09/2016 21:39:07

Quote
OK, why do their doctors + nurses- who are not on holiday and don't behave like that- also get sick?
Here's a hint- it's an infectious agent.
Specifically- it's a virus.

"Separation of similar sized particles in a spinning test tube doesn't equate with a virus."
How fortunate that nobody said that it was.
Did you think you were making a point?

Again, things like this
"Well do ya feel lucky punk? Well, do ya? ( Dirty Harry?) lol!

Do you have any more movie equivalent quips?"
leave me wondering if you need help.

Hmm? More junk mail again! Nothing important to say? No refutations or serious comments? Oh well, I guess I'll have to wait till I get an intelligent response. lol!

Do you realise that, for example, pointing out that the doctors on cruise ships catch norovirus from their patients proves that there's an infectious agent involved. So it' not junk, it is a refutation of your absurd viewpoint.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 22/09/2016 03:45:22

Do you realise that, for example, pointing out that the doctors on cruise ships catch norovirus from their patients proves that there's an infectious agent involved. So it' not junk, it is a refutation of your absurd viewpoint.

The reason that people who live together all get sick is because they all do the same stupid things. They all eat the same foods, drink alcohol, no exercise, little sleep, constant air-conditioning and little sunlight. That's the reason. You seem to think that people who travel on cruises just have bad luck and get norovirus because they are unlucky. Can't you put two and two together and see that there is a pattern here? Bad diet, lack of exercise, constantly drinking alcohol, too much grain, sugar and dairy all add up to sickness and leaky gut syndrome which allows gut bacteria to enter the blood stream which makes you sick. Then - the stupid medical system blames it on the viruses and not the food and lifestyle. Why? Reason - Because all medical practitioners are frauds and they must disguise the true cause of disease so that people keep getting sick and need more doctors to 'fix' them. Thus, therein lies the scam.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: PmbPhy on 22/09/2016 07:24:54
Quote from: Atkhenaken
I believe that viruses don't exist and nobody has ever seen a virus.
Well, you're certainly entitled to believe what you'd like to. However you're assertion about nobody having ever seen a virus is incorrect. Since viruses as so small they can't be seen with the naked eye. One has to use an electron microscope to see them. For more on this please see the following webpage: http://penpals.web.unc.edu/2013/04/14/what-microscopes-do-you-use-to-see-microbes/

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post because it would take too much work to correct all of your mistakes, mistakes which are rooting in your lack of knowledge of the relevant sciences.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 22/09/2016 14:40:49
Bad diet, lack of exercise, constantly drinking alcohol, too much grain, sugar and dairy all add up to sickness and leaky gut syndrome which allows gut bacteria to enter the blood stream which makes you sick. Then - the stupid medical system blames it on the viruses and not the food and lifestyle.

Your theory is comical at best. Go ahead and provide an explanation as to the etiology and/or pathogenesis of neonatal viral meningitis, or neonatal herpes simplex virus..... since viruses don't exist & all disease is caused by poor diet & lifestyle choices lol
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 22/09/2016 17:03:18
Quote from: Atkhenaken
I believe that viruses don't exist and nobody has ever seen a virus.
Well, you're certainly entitled to believe what you'd like to. However you're assertion about nobody having ever seen a virus is incorrect. Since viruses as so small they can't be seen with the naked eye. One has to use an electron microscope to see them. For more on this please see the following webpage: http://penpals.web.unc.edu/2013/04/14/what-microscopes-do-you-use-to-see-microbes/

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post because it would take too much work to correct all of your mistakes, mistakes which are rooting in your lack of knowledge of the relevant sciences.

Sorry sir, but is your education that is lacking. I am here to bring you closet dwelling fuddy duddies up to date. The pictures that you have presented are of hormones and are not of viruses. Nice try though! lol!
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 22/09/2016 17:14:01
Bad diet, lack of exercise, constantly drinking alcohol, too much grain, sugar and dairy all add up to sickness and leaky gut syndrome which allows gut bacteria to enter the blood stream which makes you sick. Then - the stupid medical system blames it on the viruses and not the food and lifestyle.

Your theory is comical at best. Go ahead and provide an explanation as to the etiology and/or pathogenesis of neonatal viral meningitis, or neonatal herpes simplex virus..... since viruses don't exist & all disease is caused by poor diet & lifestyle choices lol

There is no such thing as viral meningitis.

Drug-induced aseptic meningitis
The incidence of drug-induced meningitis (DIAM) is unknown.(?????????????) (known stupid! lol otherwise you wouldn't be telling us! lol) Many antimicrobials can cause the disorder (e.g., trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole, ciprofloxacin, cephalexin, metronidazole, amoxicillin, penicillin, isoniazid). Other drugs that have been associated with DIAM include NSAIDs, ranitidine, carbamazepine, vaccines against hepatitis B and mumps, immunoglobulins, radiographic agents, and muromonab-CD3.

DIAM may recur with re-exposure to the offending agent. Green et al reported a case of lamotrigine-induced aseptic meningitis, with a second episode on rechallenge with lamotrigine.[5]

The pathogenic mechanisms of DIAM are diverse and presumably differ from drug to drug. There are two proposed mechanisms: direct meningeal irritation by the intrathecal drug and hypersensitivity reactions to the drug (type III and IV). In type III hypersensitivity reactions, the drug or its metabolite forms a complex with antibodies in the serum, in turn activating the complement cascade. In type IV reactions, T helper cells, after previous sensitization, are recruited to the site of inflammation.[6]

DIAM from muromonab (OKT3) is believed to be mediated, at least in part, by cytokine release. Why such reactions are confined selectively to the CSF compartment is unclear.

Aseptic meningitis—along with cerebral vasospasm or ischemic encephalopathy—has been reported with intravenous immunoglobulin (IVIg) therapy.[7] Jarius et al strongly suggest that in vivo activation of TNF-alpha–primed neutrophils by atypical antineutrophil cytoplasmic antibodies (ANCAs) of IVIg may contribute to these side effects.[8]


Thus, I think that you will find that in all cases of prenatal meningitis the mother was given some form of drug which has attacked the nervous system of the baby.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 22/09/2016 17:51:42
There is no such thing as viral meningitis.

Sure thing.... and unicorns are real.

Quote
Viral meningitis is inflammation of the layers of tissue that cover the brain and spinal cord (meninges) and of the fluid-filled space between the meninges (subarachnoid space). It is caused by viruses.

The most common cause of viral meningitis is Enteroviruses, such as echovirus and coxsackievirus. Enteroviruses tend to reside in the digestive tract. Infections are very contagious.

Other common causes include Herpes simplex virus (HSV), usually type 2 (HSV-2)

Mosquito-borne viruses (called arboviruses), such as West Nile virus, St. Louis encephalitis virus, and California encephalitis virus

Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus

Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)


https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/brain,-spinal-cord,-and-nerve-disorders/meningitis/viral-meningitis
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 22/09/2016 17:58:38
I think that you will find that in all cases of prenatal meningitis the mother was given some form of drug which has attacked the nervous system of the baby.

rofl.... Wanna bet?
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: jeffreyH on 22/09/2016 19:17:05
There is no such thing as Atkhenaken. It is simply the result of a random collection of objects hitting a keyboard. This gives the impression of an underlying intelligence.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/09/2016 20:07:06

Do you realise that, for example, pointing out that the doctors on cruise ships catch norovirus from their patients proves that there's an infectious agent involved. So it' not junk, it is a refutation of your absurd viewpoint.

The reason that people who live together all get sick is because they all do the same stupid things. They all eat the same foods, drink alcohol, no exercise, little sleep, constant air-conditioning and little sunlight. That's the reason. You seem to think that people who travel on cruises just have bad luck and get norovirus because they are unlucky. Can't you put two and two together and see that there is a pattern here? Bad diet, lack of exercise, constantly drinking alcohol, too much grain, sugar and dairy all add up to sickness and leaky gut syndrome which allows gut bacteria to enter the blood stream which makes you sick. Then - the stupid medical system blames it on the viruses and not the food and lifestyle. Why? Reason - Because all medical practitioners are frauds and they must disguise the true cause of disease so that people keep getting sick and need more doctors to 'fix' them. Thus, therein lies the scam.

You keep having to lie to support your "point"
For example, you say "You seem to think that people who travel on cruises just have bad luck and get norovirus because they are unlucky."
there's no basis for saying that is there?
It's just stuff you made up isn't it?


"Can't you put two and two together and see that there is a pattern here? Bad diet, lack of exercise, constantly drinking alcohol, too much grain, sugar and dairy all add up to sickness and leaky gut syndrome "
I can put two and two together.
Since the doctors are not involved in the drinking etc and yet they still get sick the cause cannot possibly be due to the drink + overeating so it must be something else- like an infection.

You entirely missed the point that the doctors- who are not drinking and overeating etc also get sick.
That's because it's an infection.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 23/09/2016 01:50:52

You keep having to lie to support your "point"
For example, you say "You seem to think that people who travel on cruises just have bad luck and get norovirus because they are unlucky."
there's no basis for saying that is there?
It's just stuff you made up isn't it?


The amount of sickness on a cruise ship is greater than off cruise ships. Therefore, there is something that's occurring during a cruise which is causing this excessive sickness. That's why they need a separate disease name to cover this particular anomaly. (norovirus) I have been on a cruise and seen with my own eyes the debauched life style, too much alcohol and excessive gluttony. 'Stomach flu' ?????????????? lol What a joke the medical system is! They just make this stuff up to protect the cruise ships from litigation. Wash those hands nincompoops! lol! It will do you no good if you eat crap! lol! You can wash your hands a thousand times and you will still get sick if you eat crappy food.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/gastroenteritis-is-the-curse-of-cruise-ships-and-what-do-owners-do-to-prevent-it/news-story/dc0b8304a54d9c95fd8e7a4c091cc62e

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/01/140128-cruise-ship-royal-caribbean-nation-health-science-virus/


Quote
"Can't you put two and two together and see that there is a pattern here? Bad diet, lack of exercise, constantly drinking alcohol, too much grain, sugar and dairy all add up to sickness and leaky gut syndrome "
I can put two and two together.
Since the doctors are not involved in the drinking etc and yet they still get sick the cause cannot possibly be due to the drink + overeating so it must be something else- like an infection.

You obviously haven't watched a single episode of 'The Love Boat'. 'Doc' was a serial womanizer and reveler in all the excesses that go on in a cruise ship. lol

Get a life moron!

{quote]
You entirely missed the point that the doctors- who are not drinking and overeating etc also get sick.
That's because it's an infection.
[/quote]

Do you have any evidence? Answer - No! Obviously! lol! What a joke you are!
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: exothermic on 23/09/2016 13:19:53
Do you have any evidence?

lol....

More than enough contrasting evidence has been presented.

Evidence is only valuable to those who can comprehend it.

You have [zero] evidence to support your opinion and it's quite obvious "you still have a long, long way to go"

Buh bye
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 23/09/2016 18:22:53
Do you have any evidence?

lol....

More than enough contrasting evidence has been presented.

Evidence is only valuable to those who can comprehend it.

You have [zero] evidence to support your opinion and it's quite obvious "you still have a long, long way to go"

Buh bye

Unanswered questions -

1. Where do viruses go to when they are not infecting people?

2. There is no description of what part of the body this is.

3. There are no distinguishing features which tell us that these are HIV viruses.

4. How can you distinguish or know that a virus is budding or not budding?

5. How can something that requires the internal mechanisms of a cell to grow; suddenly grow, outside of a cell environment?

6. There are no exterior receptor nodules which are apparent in the text (digital) diagrams.

Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 23/09/2016 18:32:37


The amount of sickness on a cruise ship is greater than off cruise ships. Therefore, there is something that's occurring during a cruise which is causing this excessive sickness.

You obviously haven't watched a single episode of 'The Love Boat'. 'Doc' was a serial womanizer and reveler in all the excesses that go on in a cruise ship. lol

Get a life moron!


Do you have any evidence? Answer - No! Obviously! lol! What a joke you are!

Yes, there is something different about a cruise ship- lots of people in a small space which promotes the spread of an infectious agent.

"The Love Boat" is not real- did you think it was a documentary or something?
If you have to resort to pretending that is evidence you have pretty much admitted that you know that you are wrong.
Calling me a moron doesn't make you any less of a fool.
I have a life thanks- it doesn't involve saying stuff that's plainly untrue on web sites.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 24/09/2016 02:19:36

"The Love Boat" is not real- did you think it was a documentary or something?
If you have to resort to pretending that is evidence you have pretty much admitted that you know that you are wrong.
Calling me a moron doesn't make you any less of a fool.
I have a life thanks- it doesn't involve saying stuff that's plainly untrue on web sites.

Dodge, weave, evade, misinterpret, divert, insult, deny and deceive. These are the stock and trade of the medical establishment supporters. Still 6 questions unanswered.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 24/09/2016 13:16:00
Pointing out that your "reference"  "the love boat" is a made-up story is not dodging, evasion or whatever.
Not addressing the fact that doctors  (and others) who are not drinking or eating to excess, also get sick is evasion.

As for your 6 questions- why should I even bother to address them.
The first  couple don't even make sense.
Why assume the virus has to "go" somewhere?
" There is no description of what part of the body this is."
What body part are you talking about?

"There are no distinguishing features which tell us that these are HIV viruses."
Yes there is- they were cultured  + DNA typed.

"How can you distinguish or know that a virus is budding or not budding?"

You seem not to have noticed that was already answered Here's Exothermic's reply again for you
""Virion morphogenesis can be divided into three stages: assembly, wherein the virion is created and essential components are packaged; budding, wherein the virion crosses the plasma membrane and obtains its lipid envelope; and maturation, wherein the virion changes structure and becomes infectious." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385941/"

"How can something that requires the internal mechanisms of a cell to grow; suddenly grow, outside of a cell environment?"
It doesn't.
Nobody said it did.
That's another lie you made up.

"There are no exterior receptor nodules which are apparent in the text (digital) diagrams."
That's because they are very small- which is obvious if you actually learn about them.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Bored chemist on 24/09/2016 13:19:24
By the way, I think this finally nails your naive idea that it's caused by modern unhealthy lifestyle choices.

http://www.smdailyjournal.com/articles/lnews/2016-07-29/norovirus-outbreak-hits-sisters-of-mercy/1776425165805.html
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 25/09/2016 02:42:10
Pointing out that your "reference"  "the love boat" is a made-up story is not dodging, evasion or whatever.
Not addressing the fact that doctors  (and others) who are not drinking or eating to excess, also get sick is evasion.

The Love Boat TV series is based on real life confessions of cruise liner crew who submit stories about things that they have witnessed and seen. It is not entirely fantasy. There are plenty of elements of truth which the series reveals about what goes on behind the scenes on a typical cruise liner.

Quote
As for your 6 questions- why should I even bother to address them.

I can understand your reluctance to want to answer the questions because they show the illogical nature of viral theory. Note - There are no proper answers to these questions because I already know there are no viruses. Thus, any answers that you come up with will have to be completely made up nonsense and scientific fraud. But, I can see that you have been brainwashed by the system into accepting there existence. Note - To become a chemist, you must accept a large volume of nonsense science to pass the exams.

Quote
The first  couple don't even make sense.
Why assume the virus has to "go" somewhere?

It is the science community that insists that viruses "attack" us poor humans. Thus, in order to "attack", you must first be outside of the human body. Thus, if you are outside of the human body you must be hiding somewhere. Thus, the question. Where are the viruses hiding? Note - Your reference regards a nunnery states that the norovirus was an infection that came from exterior sources. (food or water supply)



Quote
" There is no description of what part of the body this is."
What body part are you talking about?


You are supposed to tell me. How can I know what part. You have supplied the evidence which doesn't have any description of the methods by which the sample was obtained.

Quote
"There are no distinguishing features which tell us that these are HIV viruses."
Yes there is- they were cultured  + DNA typed.

The methods of measuring viruses are very dubious. Note - It was found that in Japan where there is no HIV. That after testing people for for HIV in Japan, that 25 % of the population was HIV positive. Pure nonsense! lol!

Quote
"How can you distinguish or know that a virus is budding or not budding?"

You seem not to have noticed that was already answered Here's Exothermic's reply again for you
""Virion morphogenesis can be divided into three stages: assembly, wherein the virion is created and essential components are packaged; budding, wherein the virion crosses the plasma membrane and obtains its lipid envelope; and maturation, wherein the virion changes structure and becomes infectious." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385941/"

The reference that you have supplied states that the virus matures outside of the host cell. It states that the virus is not mature when it comes out of the cell because it is not budding yet. Note - Viral theory states that a virus requires the internal mechanism of a living cell to reproduce itself. But, your reference contradicts this basic concept by stating that the virus is not yet mature after exiting the cell. Basic logic or a lack thereof I believe. lol

Quote
"How can something that requires the internal mechanisms of a cell to grow; suddenly grow, outside of a cell environment?"
It doesn't.
Nobody said it did.
That's another lie you made up.

The virus is outside of the cell and is "not budding". Therefore, that makes you the liar!

Quote
"There are no exterior receptor nodules which are apparent in the text (digital) diagrams."
That's because they are very small- which is obvious if you actually learn about them.

Funny, I can see them clearly in the textbook digital version of a virus? But, whenever I see a photograph of an electron microscope version, they are missing. Note- When a blood cell is stressed by a polluted environment it becomes spiky and looks looks like what a virus is supposed to look like. (whatever that is) lol Hmmmmmmmmmmm............. must be just a strange conincidence, eh? lol!
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 25/09/2016 02:52:51
By the way, I think this finally nails your naive idea that it's caused by modern unhealthy lifestyle choices.

http://www.smdailyjournal.com/articles/lnews/2016-07-29/norovirus-outbreak-hits-sisters-of-mercy/1776425165805.html

This is just hearsay evidence and has no scientific basis. So they all ate the same garbage or rotten food and got sick. Thus, my theory still stands. You must supply an example where food contamination is not the cause. Also, they must not consume any grain, sugar, dairy or alcohol to qualify to be exempt from my theory. Do you have any proof of this?
Your only possible answer - I have no proof and was just trying to bluff you as I always do. lol
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: RD on 25/09/2016 02:57:10
... When a blood cell is stressed by a polluted environment it becomes spiky and looks looks like what a virus is supposed to look like. (whatever that is) lol Hmmmmmmmmmmm............. must be just a strange conincidence

The spiky (crenated) red blood cells are 1000x the size of a virus ...

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencephoto.com%2Fimage%2F304734%2Flarge%2FP2420233-Coloured_SEM_of_red_blood_cells_erythrocytes_-SPL.jpg&hash=bf53047e4f6251da7d3f5f62c630fa48)
http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/304734/view

You can learn about scale here ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUAFqkS7y9M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUAFqkS7y9M)
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 25/09/2016 03:07:02
... When a blood cell is stressed by a polluted environment it becomes spiky and looks looks like what a virus is supposed to look like. (whatever that is) lol Hmmmmmmmmmmm............. must be just a strange conincidence

The spiky (crenated) red blood cells are 1000x the size of a virus ...

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencephoto.com%2Fimage%2F304734%2Flarge%2FP2420233-Coloured_SEM_of_red_blood_cells_erythrocytes_-SPL.jpg&hash=bf53047e4f6251da7d3f5f62c630fa48)
http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/304734/view

You can learn about scale here ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUAFqkS7y9M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUAFqkS7y9M)


Can you show me a photo of a spiky red blood cell next to a virus so that I can see the difference. This shouldn't be too hard to do considering that viruses invade the blood supply. lol Good luck! lol!
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: RD on 25/09/2016 03:41:57
Can you show me a photo of a spiky red blood cell next to a virus so that I can see the difference. This shouldn't be too hard to do considering that viruses invade the blood supply.

There will be no pictures of virus emerging from red blood cells as they don't have a nucleus  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_blood_cell#Mammalian_erythrocytes) : no DNA inside. So viruses cannot be made by a red blood cells.

Viruses can be made by white blood cells, you've already seen pictures of that in this thread.
Here's a link to more such images ... http://www.sciencephoto.com/search?subtype=keywords&searchstring=lymphocyte+virus+-illustration

Red & white blood cells are about the same size ...
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencephoto.com%2Fimage%2F304720%2Flarge%2FP2420218-Colour_SEM_of_red_white_blood_cells-SPL.jpg&hash=d5eba7b4dbb228faee76039e924e5110)
http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/304720/view
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 25/09/2016 04:30:34
Can you show me a photo of a spiky red blood cell next to a virus so that I can see the difference. This shouldn't be too hard to do considering that viruses invade the blood supply.

There will be no pictures of virus emerging from red blood cells as they don't have a nucleus  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_blood_cell#Mammalian_erythrocytes) : no DNA inside. So viruses cannot be made by a red blood cells.

Viruses can be made by white blood cells, you've already seen pictures of that in this thread.
Here's a link to more such images ... http://www.sciencephoto.com/search?subtype=keywords&searchstring=lymphocyte+virus+-illustration

Red & white blood cells are about the same size ...
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencephoto.com%2Fimage%2F304720%2Flarge%2FP2420218-Colour_SEM_of_red_white_blood_cells-SPL.jpg&hash=d5eba7b4dbb228faee76039e924e5110)
http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/304720/view

T - Lymphocytes produce hormones which regulate the body functions numskull. This is what you are seeing. These are not viruses. lol! (Nice try though) lol
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: RD on 25/09/2016 05:40:51
T - Lymphocytes produce hormones ... This is what you are seeing. These are not viruses.

If blobs of hormones occurred they would be homogeneous : with a uniform cross-section : they would not have structure (http://education.expasy.org/images/Budding.jpg), which virus buds have ...

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencephoto.com%2Fimage%2F248305%2F530wm%2FM0500532-Coloured_TEM_of_HIV_viruses_budding_from_a_T-cell-SPL.jpg&hash=c55dae878ce7d89f6553e087014106f2)
http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/248305/view
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 25/09/2016 07:38:42
T - Lymphocytes produce hormones ... This is what you are seeing. These are not viruses.

If blobs of hormones occurred they would be homogeneous : with a uniform cross-section : they would not have structure (http://education.expasy.org/images/Budding.jpg), which virus buds have ...

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencephoto.com%2Fimage%2F248305%2F530wm%2FM0500532-Coloured_TEM_of_HIV_viruses_budding_from_a_T-cell-SPL.jpg&hash=c55dae878ce7d89f6553e087014106f2)
http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/248305/view

Please state -

1. Method used in obtaining photos

2. Size scale in nm

3. Explain how you get a photo from an electron microscope of an ejecting virus from a T - cell. Seems very improbable to me, having worked in an electron microscope unit myself.

4. Why aren't they ejecting from a normal cell? Is that because only T-Cells eject?

Thyrogobulin Endocytosis - Note - Same picture as your picture but of hormone excretion. lol!

http://www.thyroidmanager.org/chapter/chapter-2-thyroid-hormone-synthesis-and-secretion/
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: RD on 25/09/2016 07:49:53
Please state -
1. Method used in obtaining photos
2. Size scale in nm

If you click on the "sciencephoto" link below the photo the method [TEM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_electron_microscopy)] and magnification are specified.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: Atkhenaken on 25/09/2016 08:00:07
Please state -
1. Method used in obtaining photos
2. Size scale in nm

If you click on the "sciencephoto" link below the photo the method [TEM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_electron_microscopy)] and magnification are specified.

All questions unanswered. Note - "size in nm". Not magnification. See modifications also.
Title: Re: Do viruses exist?
Post by: jeffreyH on 25/09/2016 10:09:32
If you can't accept the science then the thread is pointless. Which I why it has been locked.