Post by: neilep on 02/01/2009 14:11:04
See this plant ?...It's called the Titan Arum !
Corpse_Flower.jpg (65.92 kB . 300x460 - viewed 10982 times)It apparently is also called the Corpse Plant/Flower because it smells so awful !
Thing is, it blooms just once every six years !!...how come ?
How does a plant evolve on a planet that has a yearly cycle of seasons that it should only bloom once in every six years ?
What is it's agenda ?...what kind of cycle is it living by ?
Thanks
Neil
Bothered About A Six Year Cycle !
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Post by: MonikaS on 02/01/2009 16:07:47
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 02/01/2009 17:26:18
Post by: RD on 02/01/2009 18:49:53
If you're interested in weird reproductive cycles have a look a the prime number cicadas ...
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In nature, primes are the key to the survival of a strange species of insect. The prime-number cicadas hide in the ground for 17 years, then emerge en masse from the earth into the forest. They sing loudly, eat, have sex, lay eggs and then die after six weeks of intensive partying. The forest goes quiet again for 17 years.http://plus.maths.org/issue26/features/sautoy/
But why did the cicadas choose 17, a prime number, for their hibernation? Scientists believe there is a predator that likes to crash their party and also emerges periodically after a certain number of years. The cicadas found that by choosing a prime-number cycle for their party, they could keep out of step of the predator more often than if they'd chosen a non-prime such as 15.
For the cicadas, the primes aren't just some abstract curiosity, but the secret to their survival.
Post by: neilep on 02/01/2009 20:13:19
Uuummmmmm because it stinks so awfully, and it needs 6 years to summon enough courage to bloom? [;D]
Well...I'm convinced !! Thanks MonikaS
Post by: neilep on 02/01/2009 20:14:53
It's shy
awwww....I'm shy !!...When ewe look at that plant though, I'd say it ought to rather be proud than shy ! :-)
Post by: neilep on 02/01/2009 20:18:07
Coz it's huge: not enough resources to produce an organ that big every year.
If you're interested in weird reproductive cycles have a look a the prime number cicadas ...QuoteIn nature, primes are the key to the survival of a strange species of insect. The prime-number cicadas hide in the ground for 17 years, then emerge en masse from the earth into the forest. They sing loudly, eat, have sex, lay eggs and then die after six weeks of intensive partying. The forest goes quiet again for 17 years.http://plus.maths.org/issue26/features/sautoy/
But why did the cicadas choose 17, a prime number, for their hibernation? Scientists believe there is a predator that likes to crash their party and also emerges periodically after a certain number of years. The cicadas found that by choosing a prime-number cycle for their party, they could keep out of step of the predator more often than if they'd chosen a non-prime such as 15.
For the cicadas, the primes aren't just some abstract curiosity, but the secret to their survival.
Thanks RD....I did once ask a question about Cicadas too.....and your info has reminded me how unusual they are !
Post by: Asyncritus on 03/01/2009 12:10:46
It produced a massive inflorescence nearly 6 feet tall right at the top of the 20-foot tree, and then, after the fruits had been produced and matured - and it seems that there were thousands of them - the palm just died.
Rumour had it that it had been planted 49 years ago, flowered once in its life, and that was the end. Sad, huh?
Post by: Asyncritus on 03/01/2009 12:24:16
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But why did the cicadas choose 17, a prime number, for their hibernation?
You want to rephrase that? Cicadas counting? You gotta be kidding us.
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Scientists believe there is a predator that likes to crash their party and also emerges periodically after a certain number of years. The cicadas found that by choosing a prime-number cycle for their party, they could keep out of step of the predator more often than if they'd chosen a non-prime such as 15.
Cicadas know about prime and non-prime numbers too? Yeeeeshh!
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For the cicadas, the primes aren't just some abstract curiosity, but the secret to their survival.
Somebody's yanking your chain! Cicadas knowing about prime numbers indeed! Believe that, and you'll believe anything!
But Somebody did know about prime numbers and how to use them. If it wasn't the grand-daddy of cicadas, then Who????? Heh heh heh...
Post by: RD on 03/01/2009 15:42:57
but there is natural selection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection) for the cycle where there is least predation, this will be a prime number of years.
Those cicadas reproducing on other periods will be predated more and are less likely to live and reproduce and pass on their (genetic) non-prime clock. So over time the bulk of this species has its life cycle tuned to a prime number of years.
So no, cicadas do not "know" about prime numbers,
but there is natural selection for those cicadas with a genetically programmed life cycle which is a prime number of years (13 or 17).
Post by: Asyncritus on 03/01/2009 20:37:15
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But why did the cicadas choose 17, a prime number, for their hibernation? Scientists believe there is a predator that likes to crash their party and also emerges periodically after a certain number of years. The cicadas found that by choosing a prime-number cycle
Come on RD - neilep's inference (or the guy who wrote the article) is pretty plain, I would have said, apart from the hasty backtracking you're now trying to do.
Cicadas CAN COUNT, everybody knows that, don't they? - and they know about prime numbers too - otherwise they couldn't CHOOSE 17, a prime number cycle!
Now wangle your way out of that one!
.
Post by: BenV on 03/01/2009 21:07:21
Now wangle your way out of that one!
He just gave you a perfectly reasonable explanation - it's a shame we have to watch the way we word things, knowing that you may leap on it. I understood RD's meaning, I wonder if anyone else mistook it in the way you did?
Post by: RD on 03/01/2009 21:13:03
The environment chose (favoured) the cicadas whose life cycle was a prime number of years, i.e. natural selection.
The cicadas cannot count but have clocks, biochemical clocks (http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=y368r0034r55384n&size=largest). I believe the cicadas receive a zeitgaber of the passsing of the years whilst underground by the annual changes in the composition of the tree sap they feed on.
Post by: Asyncritus on 03/01/2009 21:29:53
HOW DID THE GENETIC PROGRAM EVER GET CONSTRUCTED AND INSERTED INTO THE GENOME?
Once it's in, then natural selection can act. I agree with that. But that IS NOT THE QUESTION. Now stop fudging the issue and admit that there's no explanation other than divine origination.
Post by: BenV on 03/01/2009 21:41:43
HOW DID THE GENETIC PROGRAM EVER GET CONSTRUCTED AND INSERTED INTO THE GENOME?
Once it's in, then natural selection can act. I agree with that. But that IS NOT THE QUESTION. Now stop fudging the issue and admit that there's no explanation other than divine origination.
I don't know how the gene for hibernation length arose - I assume it's a number of genes working together, and in tandem with epigenetic factors. We know that genes change over time, so it's a reasonable assumption that these genes have adapted over time from an ancestor of the cicada - biochemical clocks, as RD explained, are found in many species, functioning in many different ways - why would cicada be a special case? We understand the genetics of some of these biological clocks, but not all of them yet, as they seem to involve complicated chemical pathways.
You appreciate that biology is complicated (far more so than any creator would have bothered with) and that this is probably not a case of just one gene?
Post by: BenV on 03/01/2009 21:49:18
you:
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3 The created 'kinds' (I read our modern taxon 'families' for 'kinds') had considerable but limited amounts of variability built in, as we see today.
RD:
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There would have been a wide genetic variation in the period of the life cycle of the cicadas, e.g. 1,2,3,4 ... years,
but there is natural selection for the cycle where there is least predation, this will be a prime number of years.
Those cicadas reproducing on other periods will be predated more and are less likely to live and reproduce and pass on their (genetic) non-prime clock. So over time the bulk of this species has its life cycle tuned to a prime number of years.
What's the problem? Too much variation for you? As I said above, I don't know the genetics myself, but this could be variation as simple as a small change in the number of 'repeats' on a gene, something which is known to have wide variation. Is this more than the 'limited amounts of variation' your closed minded world view affords you?
Post by: MonikaS on 28/04/2009 11:43:30
They say it'll grow only to a size of about 2 meters, because it's a young plant with a bulb size of only 20kg.
Post by: Don_1 on 29/04/2009 08:29:16
The Titan Arum in the botanical garden in Bonn is about to bloom, they've got a web cam: http://www.botgart.uni-bonn.de/o_news/webcam_farn.html (http://www.botgart.uni-bonn.de/o_news/webcam_farn.html)
They say it'll grow only to a size of about 2 meters, because it's a young plant with a bulb size of only 20kg.
Will they be issuing staff & visitors with gas masks?
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftextbooksociopath.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F08%2Fgas-mask.jpg&hash=8cdbe2537d232da394556a8bb2899ad3)
Post by: MonikaS on 29/04/2009 08:55:14
They think it'll open tomorrow or the day after.
Post by: MonikaS on 30/04/2009 18:45:09
Post by: Chemistry4me on 01/05/2009 03:32:45
Post by: Karen W. on 01/05/2009 05:23:13
Post by: Chemistry4me on 01/05/2009 10:18:26
Post by: Karen W. on 03/05/2009 13:25:31
Post by: Chemistry4me on 04/05/2009 05:57:17