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Author Topic: Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?  (Read 8762 times)

Offline Bass

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« on: 12/09/2007 02:25:09 »
According to this article http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/09/pennsylvania-ma.html seawater will ignite and burn when exposed to radio frequencies.  Talk about an abundant resource!
I've got the radio turned up to full volume (the neighbors are happy) and been trying to ignite the saltwater fish tank (but the fish are distraught)- no results yet?
« Last Edit: 12/09/2007 02:26:55 by Bass »


 

Offline lightarrow

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #1 on: 12/09/2007 20:23:59 »
According to this article http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/09/pennsylvania-ma.html seawater will ignite and burn when exposed to radio frequencies.  Talk about an abundant resource!
I've got the radio turned up to full volume (the neighbors are happy) and been trying to ignite the saltwater fish tank (but the fish are distraught)- no results yet?

It works only with the transmitter of my invention.
How much will you give me?  ;)

This is an effect of reduced scientific education? I wonder how it's possible that someone could believe this rubbish.
« Last Edit: 12/09/2007 20:26:22 by lightarrow »
 

Offline moonfire

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #2 on: 13/09/2007 06:33:00 »
Interesting. Everyone will be blasting their music.  Just kidding. 
 

Offline Bass

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #3 on: 14/09/2007 00:18:19 »
My fish are now wearing earplugs!  But no ignition yet.


More on this story from the Pittsburg Post-Gazette:
"the salt water isn't burning per se, despite appearances. The radio frequency actually weakens bonds holding together the constituents of salt water -- sodium chloride, hydrogen and oxygen -- and releases the hydrogen, which, once ignited, burns continuously when exposed to the RF energy field. Mr. Kanzius said an independent source measured the flame's temperature, which exceeds 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, reflecting an enormous energy output."
 

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #4 on: 14/09/2007 01:10:22 »
Looking at all the videos I've seen on this, the flame seems more to dance around like a candle flame than an oxy-acetylene torch.

In any event, the lab equipment never really seems particularly well protected against high temperatures.

As for breaking up water, and burning hydrogen (presumably in air, to reform water) - we are only talking about small test tube experiments, and if one were generating that much hydrogen to create a really intense flame, one would quickly consume such small amounts of water as there were in the test tube.
 

Offline moonfire

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #5 on: 14/09/2007 04:14:22 »
My fish are now wearing earplugs!  But no ignition yet.


More on this story from the Pittsburg Post-Gazette:
"the salt water isn't burning per se, despite appearances. The radio frequency actually weakens bonds holding together the constituents of salt water -- sodium chloride, hydrogen and oxygen -- and releases the hydrogen, which, once ignited, burns continuously when exposed to the RF energy field. Mr. Kanzius said an independent source measured the flame's temperature, which exceeds 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, reflecting an enormous energy output."

Love this fish!  Oh, the information is just too hot for me to handle!
 

Offline DrDick

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #6 on: 14/09/2007 19:35:15 »
According to this article http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/09/pennsylvania-ma.html seawater will ignite and burn when exposed to radio frequencies.  Talk about an abundant resource!
I've got the radio turned up to full volume (the neighbors are happy) and been trying to ignite the saltwater fish tank (but the fish are distraught)- no results yet?

I saw this the other day, and was curious, but I haven't seen anything peer-reviewed yet.  Rustum Roy is a reputable scientist in certain fields, although he does have a few loopy ideas, from what little I saw of his website.
This is NOT the same idea as you see in web videos where water is burning and we're supposed to get enough energy out of water to run a car.
This idea does have some theoretical basis, although it is unlikely to be of practical use any time soon.  Radio frequency (RF) radiation is a VERY broad band of radiation, so the likelihood of it falling within the very small range emitted by radio stations (NOT by your radio, which emits mostly sound waves) is slim.
The main problem I see is one of power consumption.  RF radiation is very low energy - the lowest in the entire electromagnetic spectrum.  As far as stimulating molecules, RF radiation is responsible for stimulating to higher rotational energy states. 
On the other hand, microwave radiation (which overlaps the RF band) is also low energy, and stimulates molecules in the same way that RF does.  Who would think that it could be used to boil water?  The thing is, you have to have just the right frequency to do it.

Dick
 

Offline lightarrow

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #7 on: 15/09/2007 12:11:43 »
According to this article http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/09/pennsylvania-ma.html seawater will ignite and burn when exposed to radio frequencies.  Talk about an abundant resource!
I've got the radio turned up to full volume (the neighbors are happy) and been trying to ignite the saltwater fish tank (but the fish are distraught)- no results yet?

I saw this the other day, and was curious, but I haven't seen anything peer-reviewed yet.  Rustum Roy is a reputable scientist in certain fields, although he does have a few loopy ideas, from what little I saw of his website.
This is NOT the same idea as you see in web videos where water is burning and we're supposed to get enough energy out of water to run a car.
This idea does have some theoretical basis, although it is unlikely to be of practical use any time soon.  Radio frequency (RF) radiation is a VERY broad band of radiation, so the likelihood of it falling within the very small range emitted by radio stations (NOT by your radio, which emits mostly sound waves) is slim.
The main problem I see is one of power consumption.  RF radiation is very low energy - the lowest in the entire electromagnetic spectrum.  As far as stimulating molecules, RF radiation is responsible for stimulating to higher rotational energy states. 
On the other hand, microwave radiation (which overlaps the RF band) is also low energy, and stimulates molecules in the same way that RF does.  Who would think that it could be used to boil water?  The thing is, you have to have just the right frequency to do it.

Dick
Ah, yes, in this way I could make anything burn, not only salt water.
Simple example: I send an high-energy laser beam (it's electromagnetic radiation as radio frequencies) on a piece of iron. How do you bet I make it boil!
 

Offline Atomic-S

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #8 on: 17/09/2007 06:52:43 »
If this thing works, there still exists the reality that the energy that is available in the hydrogen generated, had to come from the radio waves to begin with. So that the system does not generate energy, it is just a new way of doing electrolysis, and energywize is just as useful (or useless) as is that process.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #9 on: 21/09/2007 10:08:29 »
That is a load of dingoes kidneys!  He may have made a spectacular discharge by pumping loads of energy in but it doesn't say he got any energy out  and that's he important thing if you want a power source.  There is nothing in salt water as it stands that could generate chemical energy.
« Last Edit: 21/09/2007 20:32:05 by Soul Surfer »
 

Offline DrDick

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #10 on: 21/09/2007 19:52:35 »
Just because it's not 100% efficient doesn't make it worthless.  Yes, you will lose energy in the process, but so does every other energy source out there.  The efficiency answer remains to be answered.

I don't see, on the face of it, that this is any worse than the guy who says he can generate hydrogen gas by adding water to a gallium/aluminum mixture and then use that to run a car.  It takes a lot of energy to make the gallium and aluminum first.

This may eventually end up as simply a lab curiosity, but it's worth looking into.

Dick
 

Offline lightarrow

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #11 on: 21/09/2007 20:15:09 »
If this thing works, there still exists the reality that the energy that is available in the hydrogen generated, had to come from the radio waves to begin with. So that the system does not generate energy, it is just a new way of doing electrolysis, and energywize is just as useful (or useless) as is that process.
Exactly.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #12 on: 21/09/2007 20:36:06 »
If you wanted to get hydrogen and oxygen fuel out of water you can get it out with 100% efficiency by electrolysing it you do not need to tun your electricity into radio waves. 
 

Offline Bass

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #13 on: 22/09/2007 05:20:27 »
BUMMER!
The experiment failed.  No flaming fish ???

Worse yet, the fish don't swim anymore, they just sort of jiggle up and down.  And I have to shout whenever I try to carry on a conversation with them.
 

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Burning seawater- possible alternative fuel?
« Reply #13 on: 22/09/2007 05:20:27 »

 

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