The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?  (Read 5304 times)

Offline dkv

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« on: 14/09/2007 14:20:21 »
The knoweledge has evolved.
We know more than what we knew yesterday.
It has branched off into many different areas.

It has created many concepts .... and all of those concepts can be learned by any newcomer.

But some of the concepts are abstract , purely abstract.
How can one learn these creations of mind if they do not suggest any thing real ?

For example infinity , 0 , complex number i , extended number systems which allow divisions and multiplication of infinity .

Can we(or should we) define them in a way which purely abstract?
If not then how will we define the conpcepts mentioned above?



« Last Edit: 14/09/2007 14:24:00 by dkv »


 

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4586
  • Thanked: 7 times
    • View Profile
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #1 on: 14/09/2007 16:19:55 »
The knoweledge has evolved.
We know more than what we knew yesterday.
It has branched off into many different areas.

It has created many concepts .... and all of those concepts can be learned by any newcomer.

But some of the concepts are abstract , purely abstract.
How can one learn these creations of mind if they do not suggest any thing real ?

For example infinity , 0 , complex number i , extended number systems which allow divisions and multiplication of infinity .

Can we(or should we) define them in a way which purely abstract?
If not then how will we define the conpcepts mentioned above?

About infinity, 0 and complex number i, they are quite simple to understand; why do you say they're abstract? What wouldn't be abstract, for you? In a sense, almost everything is abstract: if I say that 2 people + 3 people = 5 people, this is already abstract.

About "extended number systems which allow divisions and multiplication of infinity" you are referring to limits or to Hyperreal numbers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreal_number.
 

Offline dkv

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #2 on: 14/09/2007 16:38:25 »
I am referring to the Extended Real Numbers which includes infinity as a Number.
When you say 2people +3 people = 4 people there is a evolutionary link with the method of empirical understanding to understand an abstract idea using associations with real world instances. people are real .. they are not abstract .And the real objects found in nature are used to develop a understanding of addition.
infinity , 0 and i are simple from the point of evolutionary thought.
Try to define infinity , 0 or i to a student without using purely Abstract constructs.
To begin with , suppose a person who doesnt understand Numbers asks :
What is Number? What will be your answer?
« Last Edit: 14/09/2007 16:44:16 by dkv »
 

Offline dkv

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #3 on: 14/09/2007 18:02:40 »
There are instances in the Scientific Knowledge which are not consistent with the Evolutionary origins of life.
 

paul.fr

  • Guest
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #4 on: 14/09/2007 21:00:16 »
I may be having another of my "moments" and be totally wrong, but 0 has not always been an easy number to understand.

Again, slap me if im just stupid. If infinity is a real number can you show us it? what number would infinity + 1 be?

Bugger it, i think i will slap myself.
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #5 on: 14/09/2007 21:29:53 »
Are you not really just talking about the nature of language.

Language is by its nature merely an abstraction (a tokenisation) of reality.  Numbers are themselves tokens of language that represent specific concepts - but that is no different from anything else language does.

As for what is number, even there you can subdivide the concept into notions of cardinal and ordinal numbers - they are themselves two different things (albeit it is not a distinction that is commonly highlighted when one learns the use of numbers as a child).
 

Offline dkv

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #6 on: 15/09/2007 11:06:44 »
Yes.Language is an abstraction but succeeds due to its empirical roots. Almost all nouns have real manifestactions ... except the abstract noun. Recognizing an emotion depends on the person's own expereince. For e.g Joy , amusement , Happiness , Pleasure , Satisfaction , Relief, can be understood only if the person who is learning these words has gone through the experience.  Otherwise the ideas are abstract ...
In mathematics also the problem remains the same.
Unless one understands that the concept can not be understood in  given framework then concept has not been understood.
Take for example :infinity . Infinity can not be defined in the framework of Real Numbers.If one fails to understand this then he or she has not understood the infinity. However the same symbol of infinity gets an abstract yet valid treatment under Extended Real Numbers. In this case infinity gets defined as a number which is not finite. And can be understood as a
something arbitarily large. It is a process.But even then it is not a complete definition.
if you add infinite sequence of 1's and substract infinite nos. of 1's from it then you might get 0 or 1 or whatever.

A similar kind of dilemma exist in the case of imaginary number "i" ... it has no real meaning but sometimes has a real significance and no physicist can deny that.

Zero is another case where this is dilemma is known to exist.

This kind of incompleteness in real and mental domain makes them purely abstract... What can be understood is representable in digital form but what do you do if the information is incomplete and hence not understood completely ... you might reach to some level of understanding but it will never be complete and hence can not be transferred using digital representation.(as it will lead to multiple or contradictory interpretations..the valid interpretation is not guraranteed)

The genes also carry information digitally.
But not every evolved idea is transmissible.


 

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4586
  • Thanked: 7 times
    • View Profile
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #7 on: 15/09/2007 12:06:23 »
I am referring to the Extended Real Numbers which includes infinity as a Number.
When you say 2people +3 people = 4 people there is a evolutionary link with the method of empirical understanding to understand an abstract idea using associations with real world instances. people are real .. they are not abstract .And the real objects found in nature are used to develop a understanding of addition.
infinity , 0 and i are simple from the point of evolutionary thought.
Try to define infinity , 0 or i to a student without using purely Abstract constructs.
To begin with , suppose a person who doesnt understand Numbers asks :
What is Number? What will be your answer?

And if I ask you which is the meaning of the word "meaning", what do you answer me? As you see, the problem is not with numbers only...
 

Offline dkv

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #8 on: 15/09/2007 12:48:06 »
The word "meaning" has tremendous power.
Meaning makes the communication real.
And it has a real significance. It gives us faith or logic or questions!!
Without meaning there would no meaning to asking questions.
Do you expect a robot to ask a question to another robot how were we made ? Which algortihm runs inside us? Such questions if asked by a robot then it suggests a sense desire to understand things !! which is not required for the survival of robots.
And if the algorithm is such that it has no logical meaning then what isnt the question useless???
If we intend to give some importance to the holisitc questions then Meaning becomes important.
 
From genetic(or robotic) evolution point of there was no need to ask such questions because in any case survival turns out be least guarnateed... anything can happen and thats why evolutionists say there is no purpose. The this discussion forum and other questions and understandings are irrelevant to the functioning  of life. If the understanding comes from algorithm and as I said if the algorithm carries no digital information then even that meaning is lost.
And in a meaning less world no questions are necessary.Because there is nothing to understand.

 

lyner

  • Guest
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #9 on: 15/09/2007 22:45:34 »
The Maths issues in this thread raise the question "Was Maths always there, even before humans started to use it?"
What IS Maths?
I think it is one of those conceptual things which our large enough brains  have allowed us to develop. It is one of those things which has  allowed evolution to 'change gear' and no longer be limited to the information carried by DNA.
Humans are not the only creatures to be evolving in this way. Many species have  relatively simple 'cultures' by which they pass learned knowledge on to later generations and which affects the future of the organism.
 

Offline dkv

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #10 on: 16/09/2007 07:55:27 »
Whatever I wrote made no sense to me.
It was a pure reflexive expression of something really stupid.
Is this what the Evolution tryin to tell me?
There is no purpose . There is no way that survival can be guaranteed . There is no way that I gurantee sustainability of my Happiness.
The deliberate attmept to mislead the public will be very harmful in the long run.It will create total madness. And one day one of those made by science will become important leaders. Since there is no purpose they will not hesitate to throw the world into another
World War.
A very shameful theory and a complete waste of intellectual power.
 

Offline dkv

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #11 on: 17/09/2007 11:18:39 »
In roman letter we represnet seven as VII. Whereas in Arabic it is represent as 7.

How do we know that we talking about the same concept?
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #12 on: 17/09/2007 12:23:55 »
In roman letter we represnet seven as VII. Whereas in Arabic it is represent as 7.

How do we know that we talking about the same concept?

Because people have used the two notions interchangeably without any loss or gain of meaning.

That having been said, clearly they are not identical, since they are parts of two different systems (in fact, whereas 7 is an atomic component of one number system, VII is in fact a composite component of another numbering system - and the two systems have two different properties.

So, although there are contexts in which 7 and VII can be used interchangeably, clearly there are other contexts where the two cannot be used interchangeably.
« Last Edit: 17/09/2007 13:16:18 by another_someone »
 

Offline Soul Surfer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3345
  • keep banging the rocks together
    • View Profile
    • ian kimber's web workspace
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #13 on: 17/09/2007 12:30:01 »
The growth of knowledge has some evolutionary aspects notably where people are interested in things there can be a competition for ideas and the good ideas survive and the bad ideas fail there are also problems with ideas that are very attractive an interesting and interesting that people wish they would happen and try to create them even though most of the physics says they are impossible ideas like this are  multiple intercommunicating universes, time travel and faster than light travel including instantaneous teleportation. These are the subject of many thought experiments and fantasy stories.  The very attractiveness of ideas like this does not make them useful or valid scientifically and scientist are often considered as bigoted when they put them down for very good scientific resons.  in an evolutionary context these ideas are a bit like an unstable ecosystem where one species is multiplying out of control because the normal controls that apply to stable ecosystems have for some reason been bypassed.  

I am sorry to say that human self awareness and skills is one of these occasions.

Mathematics on the other hand is a special sort of language to describe things that do not have to have any physical reality although where mathematics aligns with physics it is a very useful discipline and a fundamental tool for researchers.  Ideas in mathematics are as subject to fashion and selection as much as other sciences though.
 

Offline dkv

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #14 on: 17/09/2007 12:54:15 »
Quote
Because people have used the two notions interchangeably without any loss or gain of meaning.
REP: Yes. That common notion is grounded in reality. Otherwise the KNOWLEDGE can not be transfered.
There must exist a common ground.
This is the first criteria for evolution.. and because we talking about evolution
That common ground must be REAL World.
This second criteria for Evolution.
=========================================
Quote
The growth of knowledge has some evolutionary aspects notably where people are interested in things there can be a competition for ideas and the good ideas survive and the bad ideas fail there are also problems with ideas that are very attractive an interesting and interesting that people wish they would happen and try to create them even though most of the physics says they are impossible ideas like this are  multiple intercommunicating universes, time travel and faster than light travel including instantaneous teleportation. These are the subject of many thought experiments and fantasy stories.  
REP:Yes. The ideas sometimes as you say tend to interesting or tend to generate happiness ...
MY assertion is that :
All ideas work towards sustainbale pleasure.
Becuase by association on large scale this is what we find happening in nature.
And second reason is that some ideas existed without any common ground for sometime before meeting the reality.. EXample:- Complex number did not have a common ground until very late in evolution of calculations(its ultility gets expressed very late and the fundmenatal relation to real world appears only after advent of quantum mechanics.. because it turned out be useful it survived. But what carried the idea till then).
And some ideas can exist only only in Thoughts ... They are purely abstract .. (you can have some understanding of it but not complete)
Example String Theory ... (with last 25 years without any result)
WHAT was driving the string theory...PLEASURE i would say
=========================================
Quote
The very attractiveness of ideas like this does not make them useful or valid scientifically and scientist are often considered as bigoted when they put them down for very good scientific resons.  in an
evolutionary context these ideas are a bit like an unstable ecosystem where one species is multiplying out of control because the normal controls that apply to stable ecosystems have for some reason been bypassed.  
REP:The current replication theory demands results asap. A little delay in verification would have progated some other interesting theory like GOD is the reason.Or everything is dream (this one cant even be falsified.. whatever happens in real happens in dream)
===============================================
Quote
I am sorry to say that human self awareness and skills is one of these occasions.
REP:I dont think so .. I explain your disappointment as absence of purpose.. The purpose is TSP (i.e Towards Sustainable Pleasure)
=========================================
Quote
Mathematics on the other hand is a special sort of language to describe things that do not have to have any physical reality although where mathematics aligns with physics it is a very useful discipline and a fundamental tool for researchers.  Ideas in mathematics are as subject to fashion and selection as much as other sciences though.
REP: The problem is where mathematics works Physics doesnt and where Physics works Maths doesnt.
==================================
 

Offline dkv

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #15 on: 17/09/2007 13:31:38 »
Ideas have the same reason as that of the carrier.
Ideas seek Happiness and Pleasure. So does the individuals... Some Ideas carry Beauty and can excite the carrier just like Sex.  We can also say that Ideas live on their own merit. With or without reality..
This can explain useless or impractical or abstract existence of String Theory. And Extended Real Number(which uses infinity)
Idea carry something which resonates within us...
May be the structure .. or the simplicity or the complexity...
(I guess that explains all.. )
Which idea ignites the flame depends on what you like the most.
Which collection of Ideas become true for you depends on your internal constitution of emotions (constition can sometimes be gentic and sometimes given by environment)
A WORD OF Caution :
The evolution is directed towards Sustainable Pleasure.
Local success does not guarantee global success.
If a section of body or the society or species turns away from the path of TSP .. then is it not going to survive..
It will die... String theory might die a death very soon becuase it has deviated from the purpose of life - which is Pleasure (Sex )
« Last Edit: 17/09/2007 13:43:52 by dkv »
 

Offline Ben Aldhouse

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
    • Random and Twisted
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #16 on: 17/09/2007 14:38:35 »
This is interesting - but might it be better  under the 'New Theories' heading? Or the 'Just Chat' heading? I think it would fit nicely under 'Philosophy' but we'd have to ask for that heading to be created...

I assume that  by 'knowledge' you mean the knowledge held in total by the human race at any given time. This changes all the time. But as to whether or not that is evolution, I guess it comes down to what you define as 'evolution'.
 

Offline dkv

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #17 on: 17/09/2007 16:18:41 »
Evolution according to current defintion involves manifestation or dissolution of common traits.

According to me Evolution is migration towards sustainable pleasure.

Individual and Groups can carry knowledge and are subjected to same principle of TSP.
That is if the IDEA of Gravity would not have been charateristic of self ... then it would not have survived. 
Those who believe in String Theory often forget that we have real feelings and real emotions ... and we expect real experimental results...
Sooner or later we like to verify..
The platonic romance with idealistic principles do not last forever if it doesnt deliver results.

The String Theory dies its natural death because it is unable to sustain itself..
AND it was simply the pleasure of invention or discovery which led to its creation in the first place.
(Classical Physics still rules ..)

Let us assume that we live in another Universe then the chances of finding something like String Theory remains the same becuase ideas carries its own beauty.(independent of reality to some extent!!)



 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Do you believe that Knowledge is evolutionary?
« Reply #17 on: 17/09/2007 16:18:41 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums