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Author Topic: How Much Stuff Does The Earth Lose and Gain Each Day ?  (Read 13894 times)

Offline neilep

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Hi Peeps,

Here's a place called Earth:



The tourist board have given 4 out of 5 stars !..Still, i think I'd like to visit one day !!..apparently the natives can be a bit restless !!


Before I pack my bags though I was wondering what the  meteorological weather is ?

How much ' stuff ' gets added to the planet each day ?  ie: dust, metoerites....you know!!..STUFF !!..and how much does it lose ?...does it equal itself out ?





 

Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #1 on: 28/09/2007 11:48:22 »
From Talk Origins (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/moon-dust.html)we have this:
"These more accurate measurements give the value of about 18,000 to 25,000 tons per year. These measurements agree with levels of meteoritic dust levels trapped in sediments on Earth. (That is, they are verified by an independent cross-check.)"

Erosion of the atmosphere by the solar wind and general loss of atmosphere by thermal leakage is covered by this:
"The author points out that at present the Earth loses matter at a rate of 1 to 3 kilograms per second, the rate and composition varying with solar cycle (sunspot cycle). Recent measurements (K. Seki et al, Science 291:1939 2001) suggest the rate is lower than this, but even with a net loss of 3 kilograms per second, it would take 50 billion years to deplete the Earth's atmosphere and at least another 15 trillion years to evacuate the oceans. For comparison, the total lifetime of the Sun is only approximately 10 billion years."

If I haven't missed a decimal place, that's a loss of between 30,000 and 90,000 tons a year. So the net effect is that the planet is slimming down, but not so as you'd notice.
Source:http://scienceweek.com/2005/sw050909-2.htm

« Last Edit: 28/09/2007 11:51:02 by Ophiolite »
 

Offline _Stefan_

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How Much Stuff Does The Earth Lose and Gain Each Day ?
« Reply #2 on: 28/09/2007 13:06:33 »
Does the Earth catch up the lost matter when it returns on its orbit?
 

Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #3 on: 28/09/2007 13:27:09 »
No. It simply becomes part of the extremely rarified interplanetary medium: the odd atom or molecule or ion here and there.
 

Offline neilep

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« Reply #4 on: 28/09/2007 14:42:51 »
THANK YOU very much indeed Ophiolite....FASCINATING !!..and I thank you for the link too !!

I am surprised that the findings reveal a loss..but..as you say....in the grand scheme of things you'd not notice !!
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #5 on: 28/09/2007 16:02:30 »
We only have to look at the way the continents are drifting apart to realise the Earth is expanding at a relatively phenomenal rate. The highest gravitational pull is at the poles, this is where most of the material comes down to Earth and this is where measurements should begin. The centrifugal force at the equatorial regions counteracts the pull of gravity to some degree so will inevitably attract less material than the poles. But then we are looking at solids, what about molecules as they enter the Earths Gravitational Field? Here atoms are forced together to make gasses liquids and solids. The Aurora Borealis is an example of particles excited by the field around the poles.  Most of the material arriving on the planet will end up in the ocean, how is this measured?
 

Offline syhprum

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« Reply #6 on: 29/09/2007 09:37:25 »
Continental drift does not imply that the Earth is expanding for every upswelling from the mantle pushing the continents apart there is a corresponding subduction drawing them together.
One of the most obvious is India being pushed into the Asian land mass causing the upswelling of the Himalayan range.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #7 on: 30/09/2007 08:13:20 »
Upswelling is caused by deepening oceans as more water is produced by oxygen and hydrogen being forced together as the molecules enter the gravitational field! More water = more pressure at the bottom of the ocean. A bit like squeezing a rubber ball, press your finger in and increase the pressure forcing the rest of the ball to expand. Continental drift confirms the planet is growing!
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #8 on: 30/09/2007 13:57:43 »
"is caused by deepening oceans as more water is produced by oxygen and hydrogen being forced together"
Oh yeah? Where does this hydrogen come from?
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #9 on: 30/09/2007 14:13:24 »
Approximately 73% of the mass of the visible universe is in the form of hydrogen. Helium makes up about 25% of the mass, and everything else represents only 2%.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #10 on: 30/09/2007 17:25:05 »
Far more than 73% of the known universe is what we scientists call "a long way away" and cannot contribute to the mass of the earth.
Where do you supose the earth is getting hydrogen from?
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #11 on: 30/09/2007 19:25:15 »
You got me there m8, every single water molecule has hydrogen. hydrogen abounds everywhere, decay water and we get hydrogen which turns back into water. Jupitor has a moon that is being stripped of it's mass by the gravitational pull of the massive planet indicating that Jupitor at least is growing at a phenominal rate. We saw huge meteors pulled into Jupitor a few years back again indicating the planet is growing. Why do you have a problem with smaller particles, molecules, electrons protons and neutronsn being drawn towards the mass and converted on entry into hydrogen. What happens to a glass of water thrown into space? Instant vaporising OR DECOMPOSITION? There is plenty of evidence of particles arriving, However measuring atomic particles arriving might prove a little more difficult than standing atop a mountain with your hands open.

Where do you suppose the water came from?
« Last Edit: 30/09/2007 19:27:41 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #12 on: 01/10/2007 10:41:16 »
We only have to look at the way the continents are drifting apart to realise the Earth is expanding at a relatively phenomenal rate.
I don't' know the character of this forum well enough to know if I am allowed to say 'bollocks' without getting my fingers rapped by a moderator, but my respect for science, the scientific method, and the results derived therefrom, leave little option but to say absolute, unmitigated, coronary inducing bollocks. Syphrum has already dealt partly with this, but let me take a few more swipes at it, so that any novices are not mislead by such nonsense.
The continents are not only drifting apart, they are drifting together. Not only do we see this in the case of continental collision (India into Asia, for example), but we can measure it with by satellite observation. Since the continents can thus be shown to be moving towards each other should I declare that the Earth is obviously shrinking? It would make us much sense as your spurious claim it is expanding.
And, you say, expanding at a relatively phenomenal rate. Meaningless verbiage. Relative to what? Who defines it as phenomenal?
The highest gravitational pull is at the poles, this is where most of the material comes down to Earth
Nonsense. Your first point is valid - gravitational force is marginally lower at the poles than at the equator (the difference is less than 1%). However, do you really think that a 1% difference in gravitational attraction is going to create a significant difference in the distribution of incoming material?
But then we are looking at solids, what about molecules as they enter the Earths Gravitational Field? Here atoms are forced together to make gasses liquids and solids. The Aurora Borealis is an example of particles excited by the field around the poles.  Most of the material arriving on the planet will end up in the ocean, how is this measured?
If you care to read the links I provided earlier you would not need to ask that question. We can measure the amount of dust collected at high altitude - whether over ocean, or over sea. We can measure the amount of extraterrestrial dust in oceanic deposits. We can compare these values - and guess what, within the limits of experimental error, there is a good match.
Quote
Upswelling is caused by deepening oceans as more water is produced by oxygen and hydrogen being forced together as the molecules enter the gravitational field!
I think several exclamation marks (!!!!) are in order after such a ridiculous statement. We have a very good idea of the composition and magnitude of the solar wind. We also understand its effect upon the atmosphere in some detail. Its net effect is ablative, not additive.
Quote
More water = more pressure at the bottom of the ocean. A bit like squeezing a rubber ball, press your finger in and increase the pressure forcing the rest of the ball to expand.
You need to take some basic classes in strength of materials.
Quote
Why do you have a problem with smaller particles, molecules, electrons protons and neutronsn being drawn towards the mass and converted on entry into hydrogen.
Unless they started out as hydrogen then being drawn towards a mass is not going to convert them to hydrogen.
Quote
Where do you suppose the water came from?
Some is from degassing of the mantle, some is from cometary impact, mostly during the Heavy Bombardment phase around 3.5 to 4.0 Gyr ago.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #13 on: 01/10/2007 19:04:05 »
Tut tut
Science deserves no respect, respecting beliefs is what brings science to it's knees. Science by design is open for debate and science that relates to subjects that are definately open to debate should. I have no intention of leading novices, unlike your clear intention to do so.
The planet is growing! And the larger it get's the faster it will grow! How do you suppose we have planets larger and smaller than Earth? All planets evolve through the same process of increasing mass to the point where the mass is so great the planet cannot sustain the intense reactions, eventually either turning into a sun or becoming part of a greater planet, which inevitably becomes a sun, which begins to decay over time shedding it's particles into space where the process of planatery growth is repeated endlessly.

 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #14 on: 01/10/2007 20:05:31 »
I understand that because it formed part of the title of a punk album the work "bollocks" was tested in court, certainly on this side of the atlantic and probably both. It was found not to be obscene.
Frankly, this being a scientific site the nonsense and guesswork put forward above should cause more offence than the crudest of language.
"Why do you have a problem with smaller particles, molecules, electrons protons and neutronsn being drawn towards the mass and converted on entry into hydrogen."
I have a problem with that because it doesn't make a lot of sense.
There are certainly particles trapped by the earth. There's enough evidence that at least some of this is water- the analysis of commets as "dirty snowballs" applies here, though a lot of the stuff we hit is rock (without much hydrogen).
We do therfore pick up some hydrogen as water (and, just to rub in the point, we pick up rather a lot more oxygen as water).
This water tends to get vaporised high in the atmosphere by the energy of the impact with the atmosphere. At these altitudes it is exposed to the raw radiation from the sun. Hard UV and xrays are quite capable of breaking the bonds in water. This gives rise to elemental hydrogen and oxygen (the yeilds aren't that good but there's plenty of time, even for slow reactions).
Here's the intersting bit. Hydrogen is very light and, thanks to the equipartition principle, it ends up with just as much kinetic energy as, for example, the oxygen. In order to have the same energy the light hydrogen atoms must be moving faster than the oxygens.
More of them therefore happen to end up with energies greater than the escape velocity for the earth (a bit lower than the normally accepted value because of the altitude; it's easier to escapoe gravity if you are further up to start with.)

Gobsmacking as it may seem, the atoms with velocities greater than the escape velocity have a tendency to escape.

Earth loses hydrogen.
So, for the 3rd and hopefully final time of asking; Where does the hydrogen come from?

"Science deserves no respect, respecting beliefs is what brings science to it's knees. "

I'm with you half way on that. Respecing belief is what causes science trouble. What science should respect is evidence.
In the same way, if you can provide evidence for some of your outlandish claims you might get some respect.
On the other hand where the evidence shows that your theories are not tennable, you will lose all respect very quickly.
For example this "All planets evolve through the same process of increasing mass to the point where the mass is so great the planet cannot sustain the intense reactions, eventually either turning into a sun or becoming part of a greater planet, which inevitably becomes a sun, which begins to decay over time shedding it's particles into space where the process of planatery growth is repeated endlessly."
is clearly at odds with the observation that, given the way nuclear fusion and gravity work and also the observations made on other stars, the fate of the Earth will be that it gets fried by the Sun when it goes red giant whereas Mercury will be engulfed.

2 fates for 2 planets.

If reallity doesn't agree with your theory it isn't reality that's wrong.

 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #15 on: 01/10/2007 21:50:27 »
Jupiter will become a sun before Earth, it is already heating up, does it fit that the largest planets are the hottest, even though they are further from the sun? Do I care whether you or anyone else respects me? I do care that many people are led to believe that science literature holds all of the answers, it does not hold many answers that have stood the test of time to be quite truthful. Science is constantly evolving. for every question answered there are ten questions there to replace it.

RE: Gobsmacking as it may seem, the atoms with velocities greater than the escape velocity have a tendency to escape.

I have no problem with some atoms being projected outwards. Indeed my theory on fluid transport shows that for every action there is a reaction.

I am saying that the material attracted to the mass, in this case Earth comes in all forms, not just dust that can be seen and measured but as particles from the smallest atomic particle to the largest comet. There are plenty of examples of meteors arriving on this planet. Never seen one leave the planet yet though! In fact just the other night my wife, son and I stared at the huge firework display as hundreds of meteors entering the Earths atmosphere, Didn’t see a single one of them leaving the planet! But I guess you will have an explanation showing that these obvious additions to the planet do not equate to the planet growing in size.

Ring around Saturn for example. Is this ring a result of the increased centrifugal force around the equatorial line? I don’t know for sure but makes sense to me?

As for the arrival of hydrogen. Do you have a better idea where this massive amount of material came from?
 

Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #16 on: 02/10/2007 08:34:23 »
Andrew you are mistaken in almost every one of your statements. You do not understand science, or the scientific method. Your misinterpretation of basic facts and observations can only be explained in one of three ways.
1) You are very poorly educated and of low intelligence.
2) You are mentally unstable.
3) You are taking the piss.
Regardless as to which of these is the explanation I see no point in continuing a discussion with an individual whose ideas are so far from reality their distance would best be measured in parsecs.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #17 on: 02/10/2007 08:41:05 »
4) You are looking in a mirror.
 

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How Much Stuff Does The Earth Lose and Gain Each Day ?
« Reply #18 on: 02/10/2007 10:42:40 »
now now boys!
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #19 on: 02/10/2007 19:28:12 »
Once again I think that Andrew has demonstrated that at least some of Ophiolite's ideas may be correct. The implication of Andrew's post is that those descriptions apply to Ophiolite too. A brief look at his previous postings indicates that this simply isn't the case.

Andrew, I invite you to go and study (at least) the basics of science before posting. Not only wil this avoid cluttering up the board with vague guesswork, but it will reduce your oportunities for looking like a fool.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #20 on: 02/10/2007 22:51:47 »
At least my vague guesswork is based on logic. You say the Earth is shrinking? I question this belief and you call me a fool for doing so? My posts are mere clutter on this board according to you? I gave an observation of the arrival of material on this planet observed with the naked eye by myself and I suspect many more observers. I did not see a mass of material heading out into space. I do not believe in Black Holes either if you would like to take a personal pop at this statement please do so. And while you are at it I do not have a religious belief either.

You however and et al purport to having a sound understanding of science. What have you discovered that has contributed to science?
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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« Reply #21 on: 03/10/2007 08:09:01 »
Andrew there is absolutely no evidence that the earth or any other planet has changed its mass by any significant amount over many billions of years in fact all the evidence suggests that the mases of the planets are very stable.  If this was to happen the whole solar system would rapidly become unstable.

Also the temperature of the earth is too high and the gravity too low for the earth to attract and retain hydrogen or helium.

Another inmportant point is that if the earth was attrascting a significant amount of hydrogen it would also collect a significant amount of helium.  This is an element that is very rare on the earth and only found associated with decay products in radioactive rocks and not in the atmoosphere to if your hypothesis has any credibility where is the helium?
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #22 on: 03/10/2007 13:54:30 »
Hi

In evolutionary terms, planetary growth is rapid. Compared to the existence of man however it is relatively undetectable because adding several hundred thousand cubic metres of mass as gas, fluid, and solids would be virtually impossible to quantify.

It has been postulated many times how old this planet is and all sort’s of guesses have been thrown in for good measure. Carbon dating for example relies on dating rocks generally found at the surface. I suspect that the true age of this planet would require a few million more zero’s on the current estimates. For example, carbon dating accuracy is good for only a few thousand years so can no tell us how old a rock is with any degree of certainty. I was on the beach today, one of my favourite places, called Mansands in South West Devon. On this beach there are huge formations of graphite, obviously the result of countless years of sedimentation. The formation crumbles easily between your fingers. In the graphite, there are veins of quartz and on the beach there are many huge marble rocks eroded smooth by the waves. I have took some photographs and a walk through video so you can experience the whole picture.

Layer upon layer of sediment, which has been transformed into graphite over countless years. The formations have been uprooted and protrude from the earth on an angle, and I cannot begin to imagine how long these rocks took to develop. As I was walking along the beach listening to the waves washing over the soft stones and wearing them down before my very eyes, I thought to myself, the sediment from the action of the waves is moving this material to another area where it will once again form a sedimentary deposit. How many times before has this happened. Given enough time a gold bar will erode away and vanish into the oceans. How many times has this graphite slate been wiped clean by time?

The point I am making here is that science is only relative to the moment in human timescales.

Earth dating or Rock Dating?

Thorium and the common isotope of uranium(U238) are not markedly less abundant than the other heavy elements.  …Since the half-life periods of thorium and of common uranium are 14 billion and 4.5 billion years, respectively, we must conclude that these atoms were formed not more than a few billion years ago.  On the other hand … the fissionable isotope of uranium (U235) is very rare, constituting only 0.7 percent of the main isotope.  …The half-life of U235 is considerably shorter than that of U238, being only about 0.9 billion years.  Since the amount of fissionable uranium has been cut in half every 0.9 billion years, it must have taken about seven such periods, or about 6 billion years [now taken to be 4.5 billion years], to bring it down to its present rarity, if both isotopes were originally present in comparable amounts (Gamow, 1952, pp. 15–16).

The rock formation I was witnessing eroding away by the waves could have been carbon dated at the point of watching it erode. But how many times has that rock formed previously and who was around to date it then? And carbon dating may not be as accurate as we are led to believe it is.

Anyway, looking at the rocks thrust up into the air by massive underground force can we really believe this planet is that stable? Is it really cooling down? Or is it heating up?

Video of favourite beach, unusual rocks, slate, quartz, eroding into the sea. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/852205/mansands_rocks_unusual_formations/
 
« Last Edit: 03/10/2007 18:31:40 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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« Reply #23 on: 03/10/2007 19:25:56 »
A very picturesque post but you only seem to be confirming what I am saying.  There are many ways of quite accurately dating the earth and the sunn and they all come out with the answer of around 5 billion years old a bit less than half the age of the universe itself  the earth has been substantially the same size since shortly after tyhe start because bith observation and models predict that stars and planetary systems form in a few million years.

I agree the earth is dynamic and the continents are drifting around on it.  The record shows they have moved around all over the place and shift significantly in periods of hundreds of millions of years
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #24 on: 03/10/2007 19:51:56 »
"You say the Earth is shrinking?"
Err, no I didn't. So, exit stage left one strawman.
"At least my vague guesswork is based on logic. "On what logic is this based? "Upswelling is caused by deepening oceans as more water is produced by oxygen and hydrogen being forced together as the molecules enter the gravitational field! "
Just for a start, the earth's gravitational field is infinite (or at least a large as the potentially visible universe). Nothing enters it.
Perhaps you might want to give us the logic behind "We only have to look at the way the continents are drifting apart to realise the Earth is expanding at a relatively phenomenal rate." in the light of the fact that some of the continents are crashing into eachother.

If the earth were growing then measurements of it would show this; that's real science. Even the ancient Greeks measured it so we have records of how big it used to be. Sorry to tell you but if your "logic" doesn't tie in with reality it isn't reality that needs fixing.

"I gave an observation of the arrival of material on this planet observed with the naked eye by myself and I suspect many more observers."
And I had already said that there are gains in the earth's mass (for example as oxygen from comets) but that they are small.
I'd like to see where you showed the arrival of the massive amounts of hydrogen that you claimed.

"I did not see a mass of material heading out into space. "
I have never seen the US of A. I still believe it exists because there is other evidence for it.

"You however and et al purport to having a sound understanding of science. "
Well, yes I think I do understand quite a lot of science.

"What have you discovered that has contributed to science?"
Well, for the sake of maintaining anonymity I'm not going to answer that but just for the moment lets assume that the answer is "absolutely nothing at all". So what?
One contribution I might have made was to explain something scientific to someone. That's a real achievement but you seem to discount it because it isn't a discovery. Who knows? maybe I even explained something on this site.
Maybe I explained that there's no way the earth can pick up hydrogen from the cosmos. Of course, if nobody listened that's a pity.

« Last Edit: 03/10/2007 19:55:19 by Bored chemist »
 

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How Much Stuff Does The Earth Lose and Gain Each Day ?
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