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Author Topic: How Much Stuff Does The Earth Lose and Gain Each Day ?  (Read 13920 times)

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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How Much Stuff Does The Earth Lose and Gain Each Day ?
« Reply #25 on: 03/10/2007 22:13:15 »
Now at least we have agreed that the Earth may not be shrinking after all. Odd really if the planet is cooling down, one would expect it to be shrinking as it  cools, which contradicts stability also.

The logic of impact caused by material adding to the planet mass that logic! Remember the theory about massive meteor impacting the Earth causing an end to all life? Not my hypothesis but there is evidence of larger impacts. There are ample craters around. The moon surface is peppered with impacts large enough to be measured. That is what I am stating as logic. Like I said before, I have never seen a meteor leaving the planet but I have seen many arriving here. Another point worth mentioning is if the Earth is cooling down, and is many billions of years old, how come itís taking so long to cool?

RE: Continents crashing into each other. Iím not aware of continents crashing into each other. I am aware of tectonic plates rubbing together causing earthquakes and volcanoes. And looking at the rock formations on the beach near our home, there must have been many powerful plate movements in the U.K alone. I saw a programme a while back where there was a debate about the planet expanding or shrinking. The continents were animated along with a shrinking of the planet and all of the continents went back together like a huge jigsaw puzzle. I liked particularly the way the U.K fitted against the rest of Europe. Coincidence? Donít think so. Anyway, the continents donít finish at the coastline and are all joined together so in effect they can not be crashing into each other and have to be rubbing or riding over each other.

Animation in flash showing how continental drift fits with expanding Earth.
http://www.tlonh.com/articles/expandingEarthAnimation.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growing_Earth_Theory  History of the expanding Earth Theory


Dust particles collected from the tail of a comet and returned to Earth by the spacecraft Stardust are challenging scientists' theories of how the solar system formed.
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2006/mar/15/starsgalaxiesandplanets.spaceexploration
« Last Edit: 03/10/2007 22:33:48 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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How Much Stuff Does The Earth Lose and Gain Each Day ?
« Reply #26 on: 03/10/2007 22:40:12 »
A flood of interstellar dust is breaching the sun's weakened magnetic shield and drifting into the solar system, according to European astronomers.

The interstellar dust particles measure about one-hundredth the diameter of a human hair. The bits are thought to supply the building blocks of all solid bodies in the galaxy, including the planets and humans.

"All atoms in Earth were in interstellar grains before the solar system formed,"
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/08/0827_030827_spacedust.html
 

Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #27 on: 05/10/2007 15:50:16 »
My concern in all of this is the possibility that casual visitors to the site, persons relatively unschooled in the sciences, may read Andrew's posts and believe they represent something of substance - an alternative view of the facts. This is not so. As has now been pointed out, several times, by Bored Chemist and Soul Surfer, they fail in the general and they fail in the specific. They lack logic and consistency, they ignore the facts and dwell in the realm of 'I'd like to believe'. We would all like to believe a great many things, but thaat will not make them true.

Andrew, two of us have now pointed out a specific flaw in your argument for the Earth's expansion (and by the way as Bored Chemist pointed out no one said the Earth was shrinking). You claim the fact that continets are moving away from each other proves the Earth is expanding. How then do you account for the continents that are moving towards each other.
If you can answer that question in a logical, cohesive manner, you might regain a measure of respect.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #28 on: 05/10/2007 17:23:44 »
There you go again, implying my intent is to corrupt young minds. I think young minds are capable of determining facts themselves and solving problems for themselves.

Mountains rise and cause valleys, continents do not drift apart any more than they crash together. More an expansion of the Earth's surface, which of course will not come without a serious amount of friction and violent reaction. If a mountain range is suddenly thrust outward from the planet surface the surface on both sides of the mountain range will inevitably be pulled in. Mountain ranges can be found beneath the ocean surface as well as above it. If a continent is drifting apart it merely indicates the surface is stretching. The same goes for the ocean pressure which can crush a submarine like an aluminium beer can under your foot. This pressure must also be taken into account, particularly when continents are being pulled apart. A deepening ocean can also account for continents being pulled closer together as an opposing force to the rising mountains. Again deepening oceans will have an impact on the land as well as the ocean bed because pressure on one point will cause a rise at another point, much the same as pushing your thumb into a balloon or pushing the balloon out from inside, increases the pressure of the balloon causing it to expand.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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How Much Stuff Does The Earth Lose and Gain Each Day ?
« Reply #29 on: 05/10/2007 17:37:08 »
Now you answer a question for me.

If the Earth is cooling And you state that it not shrinking or expanding but stable. Why is the Earth not shrinking as the Earth is cooling? A cooling core would certainly produce far less pressure and given the length of time the Earth has been cooling it should have at least shrunk quite a bit.

How do you account for this?

Good luck

Andrew
 

Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #30 on: 10/10/2007 16:50:16 »
I suspect it may be shrinking by a very small amount. The amount of cooling that is taking place is limited. (The average heat transer through the crust over an entire year could melt less than 1cm of ice.) I will be quite happy to concede I am completely wrong if you show me that the shrinkage is significant - that should be a straightforward calculation using reasonable figures for temperature drop and the coefficients of thermal expansion for crust, mantle and core.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #31 on: 10/10/2007 19:09:11 »
Roughly (and estimates vary) the first rain fell on earth 4 billion years ago. Since then it's fair to say that the crust has been below 100C. The deepest ice ages are not thought to have cooled all the earth much below freezing. so the temperature change at the surface has been something like 100 C over 4 billion years.
Deep down the temperature is likely to have changed much less because the heat would have to be brought through the crust to heat or cool the core.
Typical expansion coefficients for materials are of the order of 10ppm per degree.(generally less for denser materials like the stuff deep in the earth).
That gives a worst case change of about 0.1% over 4000000000 years.
That's pretty stable to my way of thinking. You can call it "quite a bit" if you like but please clarify the matter by giving a numerical estimate- this is meant to be science.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #32 on: 16/10/2007 09:24:17 »
What if science is completely wrong? What if the earth began stable like many more planets that are smaller in mass than the earth? Nearest example the moon! What if the earth is growing at a painfully slow rate? What if the rock that was carbon dated, which I might add is wholly inaccurate anyway, was broken downs by water pulled down by plate movements as sediment deposit, reformed and brought back up to the surface, possibly a thousand times or more before? What if entire continents have been eroded away and reformed many times? We certainly see this happening today at any given coastline!

The point I am trying to make here is that any rock we try to date the earth from could well have been reassembled many times previously. We do not know that this rock has been here since the planet developed! If I left a solid block of iron in the sea over countless millions of years it would erode away. Even a gold bar will erode away, by the elements over time. Heaven knows there is enough gold in the ocean to prove this point alone.

I have no doubt that the Earth is a far greater age than anyone could begin to imagine. Saying it is five billion years old is not substantiated by dating a rock! We have seen civilizations sink beneath the waves and all but the very largest stone based remains have vanished through erosion. Where has all that eroded material gone? To form another sedimentary layer on the ocean surface no doubt!

If we take this further. The Earth could certainly have been inhabited many times in the past and most traces vanished, cleansed by incalculable timescales.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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How Much Stuff Does The Earth Lose and Gain Each Day ?
« Reply #33 on: 16/10/2007 22:47:39 »
A lot of rocks have been eroded and reformed many times.  geologists work with thre detailed structure of the individual particles that make up the setimentary rocks that form a lot of the earth's crust.

The shrinking and expansion of solid materials with temeperature is only a tiny proprtion of their total length and nowhere near the factor of 2 0r 3 that these crazy expanding earth ideas seem to require.

Why do you wish to have an earth with an age much greater than the 5 billion years or so that seems to be the most likely age. 

In the early days of geology they were really worried about the age of the earth because it appeared that stars like the sun could only shine for a few million years (they didnt know about the nuclear energy sourges that keep the sun shinig and the centre of the earth molten.  They could also see that the general erosion and rteconstitution pattern of the rocks required much longer periods than this and that there must be a process theat regularly created new mountains and recycled the materials
 

Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #34 on: 17/10/2007 11:13:19 »
What if science is completely wrong? What if the earth began stable like many more planets that are smaller in mass than the earth? Nearest example the moon! What if the earth is growing at a painfully slow rate?
What if? Well, if any of these speculations were true there would not only be evidence for this, but that evidence should outweigh the evidence for alternative explanations.
What if the rock that was carbon dated, which I might add is wholly inaccurate anyway,
Carbon dating is not wholly inaccurate. Within its limits it is very accurate and well validated by, for example, dendrochronolgy. Just don't look for anything sensible beyond 50,000 years. And remember: we don't date rocks by carbon dating. I think you are confused here.
What if the rock ...was broken downs by water pulled down by plate movements as sediment deposit, reformed and brought back up to the surface, possibly a thousand times or more before? What if entire continents have been eroded away and reformed many times?
Well, if that had happened we would find evidence for it in the geological record. We do indeed find that it has happened dozens of times, but not thousands.
The point I am trying to make here is that any rock we try to date the earth from could well have been reassembled many times previously. We do not know that this rock has been here since the planet developed!
Again, you seem to be labouring under a misunderstanding of how we have dated the Earth. All the rocks we date have been reassmebled and processed since the Earth formed. Thus the oldest rocks we have been able to date are IIRC some gneisses in Greenland dated to around 3,800 billion years BP. These gneisses were originally sediments, which points to somewhat older source rocks for those sediments ot erode from. Some zircons (an accessory nmineral)in younger rocks have been dated to around 4,200 billion years BP. The age of the Earth is based upon the age of meteorites, which are thought to have condensed out of the solar nebula at the same time as the Earth began to accrete.
. Saying it is five billion years old is not substantiated by dating a rock!
But saying it 4.5 billion years old is substanitated by dating meteorites and the oldest rocks to be found on the Earth.
.If we take this further. The Earth could certainly have been inhabited many times in the past and most traces vanished, cleansed by incalculable timescales.
Very romantic, but like most romances, largely fictional.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #35 on: 17/10/2007 19:25:57 »
"What if science is completely wrong?"
Then you are on the wrong website.
 

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How Much Stuff Does The Earth Lose and Gain Each Day ?
« Reply #35 on: 17/10/2007 19:25:57 »

 

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