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Offline dkv

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« on: 27/09/2007 21:16:40 »
How much do you agree with the  following "threat" from Anti-Vaccination Group in India:

While the Polio Eradication Initiative (PEI) is under attack for its reported failure in tackling polio, causing the same disease amongst 85,000 vaccinated children as per the Indian Medical Association, causing the spread of a new vaccine induced polio virus, and for allowing the highly unethical trials of an untested monovalent polio vaccine mOPV1 without informing the parents of children who have been vaccinated with it, we are surprised why the even more serious issue of the vaccine capable of causing Cancer and AIDS is not being discussed. It is amazing how the WHO, UNICEF, CDC and Rotary International are keeping quiet and allowing the vaccine to run riot in India.

The Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) is notorious for spreading the simian virus SV40, an extremely carcinogenic substance, that has been causally linked to Non Hodgkins Lymphoma, many types of brain tumours, bone cancers, cancer of the lymph nodes and even blood cancer.

While it has been established beyond doubt that the green monkey serum used in the OPV was contaminated by SV40 in the 1950s, legal attorneys in the USA have declared in the year 2000 that the vaccine is not free of this dreaded simian virus as revealed by internal memos of the manufacturers. Vaccine researchers say that keeping the OPV free of contaminating viruses is an impossibility as it is a live virus vaccine and efforts to kill any stranger virus would result in weakening or killing the vaccine strain.

Once inside the human body the virus SV40 is capable of causing cancer after 40 to 50 years of taking the vaccine. That is, children vaccinated today would be at risk of developing cancer upto the year 2057. Indian doctors are well aware of this risk but are unable to declare the same to the public. This information is also available with honourable members of the Indian Press and TV media. The OPV is also contaminated with the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus SIV. Genetic studies of the monkey SIVs show that they are closely related to the human HIV (Kanki et al., 1985). The SIV which has crossed over to humans via the polio vaccine, and is still crossing over thanks to the PEI, is approximately 50% related to human HIV (Essex & Kanki, 1988).

According to retrovirus researchers SIV is "virtually indistinguishable from some human variants of HIV-2" associated with West African AIDS (Curtis, 1992). SIV has also been found in the cancer cells of an AIDS patient (Bohannon et al., 1991). Vaccine manufacturers like Merck and Co. were so scared of these findings that they refused to produce vaccines based on green monkey serum in 1961. Today vaccine manufacturers are shielded from law suits in a bid to make them compliant.

The introduction and experimental trial of the OPV vaccine in Africa coincided with the epidemic of AIDS in Africa. When this vaccine was given to the gay population of the USA to fight recurrent genital herpes (Tager, 1974) AIDS spread amongst the American gays (Kyle, 1992). The study of the link between the OPV and AIDS led researchers to comment, "It is difficult to believe that the outbreak of HIV infection in Africa at the same time and location as the mass trial of the OPV is a coincidence". (Elswood & Stricker, 1994).

Rebutting claims of the medical community that the OPV has been "cleaned" of these dreaded simian viruses, Tom Folkes Chief Virologist of the retrovirus laboratory of the US CDC has said, "vaccine manufacturers could not kill one virus and keep another virus alive". He goes on, "The fact that it's (the OPV) a live vaccine would indicate that they had not gone through any inactivation procedures to denature the AIDS virus, because it would probably denature the polio virus. So the polio virus is kept alive and the SIV would just travel with it. The theory, the possibility is real." (Curtis, 1992).

We have reasons to believe that the OPV being used in India have not been tested for either the SV40 or SIV. Our children have thus been vaccinated for over two decades with a potent carcinogen and also the AIDS virus by various governments at the centre with the medical community preferring to look the other way for reasons best known to them.

Probably a few hundred cases of polio a year (statistics before the introduction of the OPV) is a greater threat than the massive epidemics of Cancer, AIDS and Autism that have spread like wildfire all over the country. I suppose all this has been done "for the greater good of mankind", and opposition has been "taken with a pinch of salt", quoting the two phrases very dear to the medical community.

We need not talk about the stealth viruses which have also crossed over to humans via the OPV that are behind Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Autism (Martin, 1995), fibromyalgia, depression and dementia in adults, and attention deficit and behavioral disorders in children. Stealth Virus infection can also cause severe encephalopathy (Martin, 1996).

We are sorry, we cannot allow you anymore to carry on disinformation, diseases and death dance by furthering the depopulation "useless eaters" agenda of the WHO and its allies. This is, therefore, absolutely the FINAL NOTICE to you to stop your madness forthwith or we will be constrained to take a PIL either in the Bombay High Court or in the Supreme Court.



 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #1 on: 29/09/2007 08:48:21 »
Interesting post that deserves some attention, so I delved a little further to see if the references relate to published research, and they do with publications in the Lancet. I had heard about the links with antiviral and aids before and remember them being dismissed by scientists. But the evidence is pretty compelling and the likelihood of a coincidence between the release of antiviral and the outbreak of aids does correspond. I remember also reading that Polio is the only real success from anti-virus. Also heard that foot and mouth disease anti-virus is wholly ineffective, which is why the slaughter policy is preferred. Indeed there is a six month ban in place following vaccination, where there is a three month ban following the mass slaughter of farm stock. Why a six month ban for anti-virus in F&M?  Answer, because the animals recover when the weather patterns change to a warm dry climate and the animals own immune response kicks in and clears the infectious disease, not the anti-virus and the E.U. Knows this!

Now, if anti-virus is ineffective, we canís surely slaughter the human population can we?
 

Offline dkv

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« Reply #2 on: 29/09/2007 19:36:03 »
Strange answer. Are you suggesting we should stop slaughtering Cows and Animals.
 

Offline chris

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« Reply #3 on: 29/09/2007 21:43:28 »
I have already written a detailed overview of HIV, its origins and the proposed link (or rather lack of) between the oral polio vaccine and HIV:

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=699.msg5916#msg5916

Chris
 

another_someone

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« Reply #4 on: 29/09/2007 22:04:44 »
I remember also reading that Polio is the only real success from anti-virus.

So what about smallpox (still ongoing is measles, mumps, and rubella).

Also heard that foot and mouth disease anti-virus is wholly ineffective, which is why the slaughter policy is preferred.

My understanding is that the reason why vaccines against foot and mouth is not liked is because a vaccinated animal would have anti-bodies to foot and mouth, thus making it difficult to do anti-body tests to see if an animal has actually been infected with the live virus.
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #5 on: 29/09/2007 22:05:48 »
quote by Dr karl.

Quote

The true origin of HIV began with two separate viruses that infected two separate species of monkeys. The monkeys were attacked and eaten by chimpanzees, who because of their size (up to 1.8 m), strength and clever organization into formidable teams, easily hunted down and ate the monkeys, while they were alive. There was lots of monkey blood splashed around, and occasional cuts to the chimpanzees, so the chimps became infected with both the viruses from the monkeys. Inside the chimps, the two monkey viruses mutated into one new virus Ė which did not make the chimps unwell. We call this new virus SIV, or Simian Immunodeficiency Virus. Somewhere between 1910 and 1950, a human hunted down and killed a chimp for "bushmeat". The chimp virus, the SIV, inside the chimp blood entered his body through cuts, infecting him, and then mutating into HIV. The genetic code in all of these viruses leaves a clear trail of the evolution that began with two separate monkey viruses, and ended up with HIV.


i have not yet had the time to read what Chris has written on the subject, but there is no (proven) link between OPV and HIV
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #6 on: 29/09/2007 22:07:38 »


My understanding is that the reason why vaccines against foot and mouth is not liked is because a vaccinated animal would have anti-bodies to foot and mouth, thus making it difficult to do anti-body tests to see if an animal has actually been infected with the live virus.

IIRC, There is also the fact that the EU, would not accept our beef if we used the vaccine.
 

another_someone

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« Reply #7 on: 29/09/2007 22:09:52 »


My understanding is that the reason why vaccines against foot and mouth is not liked is because a vaccinated animal would have anti-bodies to foot and mouth, thus making it difficult to do anti-body tests to see if an animal has actually been infected with the live virus.

IIRC, There is also the fact that the EU, would not accept our beef if we used the vaccine.

But my understanding is that the reason they would not accept our beef is because they could not distinguish between an infected animal and a vaccinated animal.
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #8 on: 29/09/2007 22:20:12 »

But my understanding is that the reason they would not accept our beef is because they could not distinguish between an infected animal and a vaccinated animal.

You are correct, George. I was trying to point out that there was also an economic reason to not vaccinate. I did however, rush my reply and not make clear what i was getting at.
 

Offline dkv

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« Reply #9 on: 29/09/2007 23:49:05 »
polio vaccine's success lead to protests against it.
And they might be true when they speak of regular but small chance of vaccine induced disease.
the ulititarian view works.:-))
so why not slaughter men if they get infected.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #10 on: 30/09/2007 08:19:13 »
Strange answer. Are you suggesting we should stop slaughtering Cows and Animals.

Indeed I am suggesting that the slaughter of animals is not the way to go. Animals moved into the laboratory for study that were infected with foot and mouth disease got better and scientists were unable to study the disease! Why do you think they got better without an antivirus?

 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #11 on: 30/09/2007 14:30:57 »
"Why do you think they got better without an antivirus?"
For the same reason that people recover from colds. The F+M virus is not usually lethal to animals  that get infected.
There are vaccines that produce different antibody test results from the disease; they have yet to be fully tested but they could certainly be used. The problem here is political- the EU cannot accept meat from vaccinated animals even though there is no risk to human health and practically no risk to agriculture either.
 

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« Reply #12 on: 30/09/2007 17:42:47 »
"Why do you think they got better without an antivirus?"
For the same reason that people recover from colds. The F+M virus is not usually lethal to animals  that get infected.
There are vaccines that produce different antibody test results from the disease; they have yet to be fully tested but they could certainly be used. The problem here is political- the EU cannot accept meat from vaccinated animals even though there is no risk to human health and practically no risk to agriculture either.

As you say, F+M is not usually lethal, but it can be.

I don't know what the mortality rate for F+M is, but if (in the event of it becoming endemic) it cost the lives of 100 cattle each year, then the culling of 500 cattle every 10 years in order to prevent it from taking hold is a valid trade off (the figures are arbitrary, and if anybody knows more precise figures, then by all means correct me).  Whether this can justify the culling of around 7 million head of livestock (as was the case in 2001) is another matter.  It is all a matter of scale, and it is clear that the scale of action in 2001 was significantly larger than what may reasonably be argued to be justified by the threat.  The 1967 outbreak, which had more confirmed cases of the disease, had a cull of only half a million head (a lot, but still far less than the 2001 outbreak).

Nor is it as simple as saying that the EU forbade vaccination, because the Dutch did vaccinate about 100,000 cattle in 2001.

One problem with vaccination is the high mutation rate of the F+M virus means that, like flu vaccines, you have to make sure you have vaccinated against the correct strain of the disease.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #13 on: 30/09/2007 19:40:58 »
I don't know the mortality rate either but the simplest explanation for why the animals recovered is that it's a long way from 100%. This page
http://www.promedmail.org/pls/promed/f?p=2400:1202:5466135632794598776::NO::F2400_P1202_CHECK_DISPLAY,F2400_P1202_PUB_MAIL_ID:X,37124
indicates that mortality from the disease is low.

I understand that the Dutch vaccinated those cattle; then slaughtered them and destroyed the carcasses. Vaccination is the quickest way to stop an outbreak but the meat is still considered unfit.
An interesting side note is that in the UK our formeost research and vaccine manufacturing  enterprises are currently shut down because they were the source of the outbreak (yet more politics in why that hapened).
This also means they can't work on blue-tongue.

Anyway, to get back to the original question, practically everyone was given the oral polio vaccine. That's why polio was nearly wiped out. AIDS is restricted to certain groups so it cannot have been caused by something given to lots of people (like, for example, me) who didn't become ill.
Also whereas the post above says that there were few cases before vaccination started "Probably a few hundred cases of polio a year (statistics before the introduction of the OPV)" this page
http://www.geocities.com/anand_chittu/Need_to_revisit_OPV_in_India.pdf
(which is not entirely suportive of the vaccination program) says there were tens of thousands.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #14 on: 01/10/2007 23:54:03 »
Quote
So what about smallpox (still ongoing is measles, mumps, and rubella).
Healthcare Today

The Big Debate On Smallpox Vaccination

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Medically Reviewed On: October 17, 2002

Vaccination can protect a person for up to 10 years, and even longer with re-vaccination. But routine vaccination for smallpox ended in the United States in 1972, which means that approximately 41% of the population has never been vaccinated. Those who were vaccinated may have lost their immunity, as there have been no vaccinations in at least 30 years.
http://vid_health.healthology.com/healthcare/article1671.htm?pg=3



Quote
My understanding is that the reason why vaccines against foot and mouth is not liked is because a vaccinated animal would have anti-bodies to foot and mouth, thus making it difficult to do anti-body tests to see if an animal has actually been infected with the live virus.

Sounds a little contradictory. I thought the idea of a vaccine was to eradicate the disease therefore should it matter if the animal had received the live culture and is after all cured by the vaccine?
« Last Edit: 01/10/2007 23:58:29 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

another_someone

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« Reply #15 on: 02/10/2007 01:28:07 »
Quote
So what about smallpox (still ongoing is measles, mumps, and rubella).
Healthcare Today

The Big Debate On Smallpox Vaccination

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Medically Reviewed On: October 17, 2002

Vaccination can protect a person for up to 10 years, and even longer with re-vaccination. But routine vaccination for smallpox ended in the United States in 1972, which means that approximately 41% of the population has never been vaccinated. Those who were vaccinated may have lost their immunity, as there have been no vaccinations in at least 30 years.
http://vid_health.healthology.com/healthcare/article1671.htm?pg=3

But, aside from biological warfare scenarios, I am not sure if this is an issue.

Since there are no non-human reservoirs of the smallpox virus, and we now believe that we have eliminated smallpox in the human population, so the only place we could still have the smallpox virus remaining is in certain laboratories.

In such a situation, the immunity of the population will only become relevant in the situation where there may be a release of the virus from these laboratories (either through human error, as has happened; or as part of a biological warfare campaign).



Quote
My understanding is that the reason why vaccines against foot and mouth is not liked is because a vaccinated animal would have anti-bodies to foot and mouth, thus making it difficult to do anti-body tests to see if an animal has actually been infected with the live virus.

Sounds a little contradictory. I thought the idea of a vaccine was to eradicate the disease therefore should it matter if the animal had received the live culture and is after all cured by the vaccine?

This would be fine if the vaccine was 100% effective, but because of the high degree of variability in the virus involved, there is no 100% guarantee that the vaccine will always protect the animal.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #16 on: 02/10/2007 15:12:36 »
Thank you.

Vaccines are not 100% effective. There was an outbreak of smallpox in 1947 in the USA 2 people died from smallpox, while 9 people died from the vaccine. Smallpox is admittedly a good example of success with vaccine, but I suspect we will see it again in the future and we may not be as lucky with the next strain. It was a lateral thinker that observed the relationship with cowpox and milkmaids resistance to smallpox that brought this about, not some complicated laboratory process aiming to come up with the answer from scratch. In 2001 during the previous outbreak, I was campaigning for vaccination of animals rather than slaughtering them and burning them in huge fires, which undoubtedly caused more pollution than a few old smoking vehicles and the odd jet engine. And landfill proved to be problematic also with putrefying  corpses leeching into streams and underground water.
 

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« Reply #17 on: 02/10/2007 18:56:23 »
Thank you.

Vaccines are not 100% effective. There was an outbreak of smallpox in 1947 in the USA 2 people died from smallpox, while 9 people died from the vaccine. Smallpox is admittedly a good example of success with vaccine, but I suspect we will see it again in the future and we may not be as lucky with the next strain. It was a lateral thinker that observed the relationship with cowpox and milkmaids resistance to smallpox that brought this about, not some complicated laboratory process aiming to come up with the answer from scratch.

The trouble is that some viruses (foot & mouth, flu, and HIV, being prime examples) are so rapidly mutating that it is difficult to keep up with the latest strain of the virus.  Smallpox, by all appearances, seems to have been a fairly stable virus (as it appears is polio), thus making vaccination fairly effective.

In the case of the cowpox vaccine (smallpox had already been regularly inoculated against in many Asian countries for some time before, by introducing the smallpox virus itself into small babies - this having about a 0.1% fatality, but this being less than the fatality of the disease later in life), it is certain that Jenner was not the first to use it (although he was the first to bring it to the attention of the medical community).  This is not to question that it was not good lateral thinking, but by whom, I doubt we shall ever know (it is documented as having been used in 1774 by a farmer, Benjamin Jesty, in Dorset; but I suspect it was already part of the common folk medicine of the countryside long before then).

Nonetheless, as you point out, the vaccine was never 100% safe, and I myself when vaccinated as a baby had a severe reacting to the vaccine, and my mother consequently refused to vaccinate my sister (but then, I did suffer a lot from eczema, and that seems to be a contra indicator for smallpox vaccination, but it seems the doctors took no note of that).

 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #18 on: 14/10/2007 12:11:03 »
Thank you.

Vaccines are not 100% effective. There was an outbreak of smallpox in 1947 in the USA 2 people died from smallpox, while 9 people died from the vaccine. Smallpox is admittedly a good example of success with vaccine, but I suspect we will see it again in the future and we may not be as lucky with the next strain. It was a lateral thinker that observed the relationship with cowpox and milkmaids resistance to smallpox that brought this about, not some complicated laboratory process aiming to come up with the answer from scratch.

The trouble is that some viruses (foot & mouth, flu, and HIV, being prime examples) are so rapidly mutating that it is difficult to keep up with the latest strain of the virus.  Smallpox, by all appearances, seems to have been a fairly stable virus (as it appears is polio), thus making vaccination fairly effective.

In the case of the cowpox vaccine (smallpox had already been regularly inoculated against in many Asian countries for some time before, by introducing the smallpox virus itself into small babies - this having about a 0.1% fatality, but this being less than the fatality of the disease later in life), it is certain that Jenner was not the first to use it (although he was the first to bring it to the attention of the medical community).  This is not to question that it was not good lateral thinking, but by whom, I doubt we shall ever know (it is documented as having been used in 1774 by a farmer, Benjamin Jesty, in Dorset; but I suspect it was already part of the common folk medicine of the countryside long before then).

Nonetheless, as you point out, the vaccine was never 100% safe, and I myself when vaccinated as a baby had a severe reacting to the vaccine, and my mother consequently refused to vaccinate my sister (but then, I did suffer a lot from eczema, and that seems to be a contra indicator for smallpox vaccination, but it seems the doctors took no note of that).



Interesting about the early case of vaccination. I can remember my late grandmother telling me " a little bit of want makes you bad can make you better. She was probably refering to us putting earthworms and dirt in our mouths as very young children, we lived opposite my grandparents and enjoyed huge fields and open spaces, all of which are housing estates now. Anyway back on track. I guess it would have been fairly easy to identify this concept for people who pay attention. For example, Sewer workers appear to develop a resistence to most infections. As do dentists. So exposure to disease and a build up of observed immunity could have triggered the concept of vaccination many years earlier as you pointed out.

Again the problem with vaccination is the mutation of the virus we are trying to immunise people against. We now have blue tongue to deal with. I wrote a paper back in 2001 on foot and mouth disease linking it to the weather changes prior to the outbreaks, which fitted with the 1967 outbreak also. Widespread flooding preceded the outbreaks in both cases. So following the wettest July on record I made another prediction that there would definitely be another outbreak in the next few weeks. This was confirmed as being correct. In the same paper I wrote that there are many other viruses already in place, and providing the weather does not cause stress on the animals systems, which is more prevalent in river valley areas or close to inland water and low lying coastal regions we may not see an outbreak of other infectious diseases from virus or bacterial origin. I also mentioned that if nipha virus gets a hold here we will be in serious trouble.

Now we have blue tongue to tend with. Is it a coincidence that itís from midges which congregate around water?

In the good old days before land constraints and land ownership changes. Farmers moved animals from low laying areas to upland areas knowing full well the consequences of failing to act upon this age old tradition. Now farmers are prevented from moving the animals as soon as an outbreak happens confining all of the animals in the uk to live in the appalling knee deep mud, faeces and urine which was in all cases hammered by torrential rain and high humidity following the rain.

When scientists took animals from the water logged fields to study the infection in laboratory conditions, which of course were warm and dry. All of the animals recovered.     
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #19 on: 14/10/2007 13:31:07 »
There was a rumour in the 2001 outbreak of F&M presented an oportunity to eradicate large numbers of animals to remove the threat of BSC from heards of cattle and scrapies from sheep. Which makes a lot more sense than the overhanded onslaught against foot and mouth. I wonder if the government was involved in a cover up over the numbers of animals infected with bse?
 

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