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Offline dkv

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Reasons of suicide
« on: 03/10/2007 14:07:13 »
Among many reasons some reasons are weird.In the last half a century psychology has made great progress and terms like depressed paranoid etc became more famous.
Some die for love, some for country ,some for caste and society.

But some people commit suicide while working on Mathematics!!
Strange but true.

Some of the finest minds of the last century were depressed , paranoid or went mad.
Following examples will illustrate the case:
Turing committed suicide in 1954
Kurt Godel was paranoid and depressed
Stephan Hawking suffers from major brain damage
Georg Cantor lived in mental hospital for 25 years
Ludwig Boltzmann committed suicide.
John Nash was paranoid.


"Many Mathematicians do not marry."
Stephan Hawkings

My question :
Is there is something wrong with the Mathematicians or the Mathematics?



 

another_someone

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Reasons of suicide
« Reply #1 on: 03/10/2007 15:05:12 »
Is there is something wrong with the Mathematicians or the Mathematics?

I think some of your examples are a little off the mark (for instance, Turing committed suicide because he was about to be outed as a homosexual at a time when homosexuality was illegal); but in general, I would suggest that anybody who is exceptional in some way, is inherently abnormal, and so might often be abnormal in more than one way (i.e. this applies to all geniuses, whether they be mathematical geniuses, or geniuses in other fields).

There is also a slightly greater predisposition for geniuses to be left handed, and to be sufferers of bipolar disorder (this is not to say that all left handers are geniuses, or all geniuses are left handers, but it is an indication of a correlation of a much wider range of brain differences between geniuses and other people).
« Last Edit: 03/10/2007 15:19:17 by another_someone »
 

Offline dkv

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Reasons of suicide
« Reply #2 on: 03/10/2007 15:48:57 »
I think what one does in the bed is a private matter.Turing struggled to communicate properly.
Some of his interviews are crazy.
How do you explain that?

The following documentary explains the rest:

http://bestdocumentaries.blogspot.com/2007/09/dangerous-knowledge-full-documentary.html

 

another_someone

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Reasons of suicide
« Reply #3 on: 03/10/2007 16:40:16 »
I think what one does in the bed is a private matter.

In principle, I would agree with you, but in practice, the law has never agreed with that.

In the past, it was legal to have sex with a 14 year old girl, but sodomy and homosexuality were illegal.  Now the law has been reversed on both of those counts.

Whether we think it should be private or not, it is a fact the law has never agreed that it should be wholly private, and that people accused of sex crimes (whether homosexuality, when that was illegal; or paedophilia today) are far more likely to commit suicide than most other categories of accused criminals.  Maybe because it is such a 'private' act that has been brought into the glare of publicity, it is so much more shameful than being accused of robbing a bank.

Turing struggled to communicate properly.
Some of his interviews are crazy.
How do you explain that?

While I know a good number of very bright people who have difficulty in communicating (sometimes, if your brain works very differently to anybody else's, then it is not always easy to communicate your ideas to other people); but I am not aware of any interviews that Alan Turing gave (he was, after all, working much of his time on top secret projects).

The following documentary explains the rest:

http://bestdocumentaries.blogspot.com/2007/09/dangerous-knowledge-full-documentary.html


It looks like it might be an interesting documentary, but it is 11/2 hours long, and I shall have to wait until I have more time before sitting down to watch it.
 

Offline dkv

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Reasons of suicide
« Reply #4 on: 03/10/2007 17:28:00 »
Consider the following statement given by famous author:
Alan Turing is most famous for breaking the German Enigma code during World War II. But among scientists, he's best known for pure mathematical discoveries inspired by Kurt Gödel's greatest work.

Taken together their work proves that there are fundamental limits to what we can ever know. In the wake of this massive blow to knowledge, Turing invents the computer.

So here they converge on some phenomenal truth about numbers but then diverge completely in their worldviews - Turing becomes an atheist who believes we are no more than soulless biological machines and Gödel believes in reincarnation of a soul. And then their suicides are bleakly complementary - Gödel starves himself to death in a paranoid delusion that his food is poisoned and Turing intentionally eats poisoned food, an apple, straight out of Snow White. I said you can't make this stuff up.
=========================================
Notice how proud is the writer.The criticism fails to relate the kind of work and subsequent behaviour.

This is how intelligent minds behave ?
Do you think those activities which led to such a consequnce were intelligent?

Both suffered from massive mental health problems.
Not only communication but overall ability to lead a normal life suffered.
These cases are extraordinary because it relates to the rational field of science.
If you are psychologist then you know what is meant by rationality.
=======================================

There is an overall sense of pride with asscoiated madness.
As you proudly described the bipolar disorders found among intelligent elite.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #5 on: 04/10/2007 13:50:01 »
Some people commit suicide while trying to find out why others have committed suicide. Isn't that remarkable!

There are certain personality traits that predispose people to certain lifestyles and professions. There is a high incidence of suicide among doctors. Many barristers are closet homosexuals. Lots of musicians take drugs.

One could argue that the intensity of one's profession has effects in one's private life. That is very true. I would imagine that most people who work under a considerable amount of stress - such as doctors, barristers, air traffic controllers, etc - suffer from neuroses at some point in their lives. The work that Alan Turing was involved with was extremely stressful; plus he had problems in his private life to contend with. He was also, apparently, very short-tempered, irritable and insulting, and did not have many friends. Stress at work, stress in his private life, and no-one with whom he could talk to ease the burden. To be honest I'm suprised he didn't commit suicide sooner!
 

Offline dkv

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« Reply #6 on: 04/10/2007 13:58:31 »
:-)
the stress is a sign of social disorder.
You are right ,some professions are stressful.
But what is wrong with mathematics?
Isnt it enjoyable?
Isnt it the subject they enjoyed and society by and large supported?(the system spoiled them)
But why suicide?
not only turing but all the great names which mentioned committed suicide.
Gauss also had plans!!
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #7 on: 04/10/2007 14:15:07 »
:-)
the stress is a sign of social disorder.
You are right ,some professions are stressful.
But what is wrong with mathematics?
Isnt it enjoyable?
Isnt it the subject they enjoyed and society by and large supported?(the system spoiled them)
But why suicide?
not only turing but all the great names which mentioned committed suicide.
Gauss also had plans!!


In theory, mathematics should be a beautiful science with lovely patterns. Unfortunately, in the real world it isn't like that. For years Einstein wrestled with trying to marry gravity with QM (I think) but went to his death bed no nearer solving the problem.

So, you have years of intense work, disappointment, disillusion with one's own abilities, all one's efforts coming to nought. You're surprised many have committed suicide? You shouldn't be.

As for the stress being a social disorder - I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. Individuals can feel stress, but there can also be stresses in society (in times of war or national hardship, for instance). Individual stress can be caused by societal pressure - as in the case of closet homosexuals.

You seem, to me, to be expressing surprise at perfectly normal occurences in order to put your theory on a firmer foundation, or attributing meanings to those occurences that support your theory when, in fact, there is no connection.
« Last Edit: 04/10/2007 14:19:57 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline dkv

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« Reply #8 on: 04/10/2007 14:33:26 »
It is beyond the play of simple words.
The problem is with Mathematics.
This was acknowledged by Einstein as well.
I am discussing my own theory of Containers to explain the mathematical events and operations.
I also discussed in under what is true and false.
Wihout container the mathematical operations carry no meaning.
There is Universal container and it is self.
No matter what level of abstraction gets achived there must exist a Container.
example:
Water is a container for marine animals.

 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #9 on: 04/10/2007 14:38:47 »
It is beyond the play of simple words.
The problem is with Mathematics.
This was acknowledged by Einstein as well.

Was it? What did he say? And what was the problem? I know he was unable, initially, to get to grips with Riemannian geometry & had to enlist help. I would think that Einstein was far more likely to have said that any problem lay in his lack of mathematical ability.
 

Offline dkv

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« Reply #10 on: 04/10/2007 14:52:58 »
He referred to the Godgel argument.
No system can be proved.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #11 on: 04/10/2007 15:05:17 »
But that's not just true of mathematics. You can only ever disprove.
 

another_someone

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Reasons of suicide
« Reply #12 on: 04/10/2007 15:54:31 »
But that's not just true of mathematics. You can only ever disprove.

It is not quite the same thing.

Where physical facts are concerned, you can only disprove something; but mathematics is as much about language as it is about physical facts (in fact, mathematics is wholly devoid of physical facts), and so it is quite possible to prove by pure logic that a particular mathematical concept must inevitably follow from the inherent concepts of of the language of mathematics.  The problem is that mathematicians would like to show that all complex ideas in mathematics inevitably follow from the structure of the language, and it is being proven that some apparent truths cannot be directly and inevitably derived from the underlying principle of the language.  This implies that somehow the underlying principles of mathematics is not self contained and complete.

Physical sciences are based on observation, and so inherently cannot be self contained.
 

Offline dkv

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« Reply #13 on: 04/10/2007 16:40:13 »
Quote
Physical sciences are based on observation, and so inherently cannot be self contained.
Maths is not Self contained.But all expressions of mathematics are contained in a Universal container.
For example conatianer can be the immediate observer or the  mathematicians.
Self is the container means some human is the contianer.
Humans Contianers can not debated becuase they contain everything including logic,contradictions and possible meaninglessness arising out of it.

Therefore Observer is the component intrinsic to Mathematics.
 

Offline dkv

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« Reply #14 on: 08/10/2007 10:21:00 »
Few more mathematicians who committed suicide:
Nina Bari
Arthur Black (mathematician)
Renato Caccioppoli
Paul Epstein
Andreas Floer
Felix Hausdorff
Dénes K?nig
Aleksandr Lyapunov
James MacCullagh
Lev Schnirelmann
Yutaka Taniyama
 

Offline dkv

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« Reply #15 on: 09/10/2007 16:30:42 »
Some more attempted suicides:
Gauss
Ireland's greatest mathematician:William Rowan Hamilton attempted suicide.
Subramanyam Chandrashekar attempted suicide.

Brings the total to 22.
 

Offline johnbrandy

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Reasons of suicide
« Reply #16 on: 18/10/2007 04:59:54 »
In my view, the reasons for suicide have nothing to do with mathematics at all. It has been pointed out that some of these mathematicians never married. This fact suggest emotional and social problems, rather that the mystery or mystic associated with a preoccupation with mathematics. Einstein married several times, suggesting a real need for personal connection. Statistically, mathematicians do not commit suicide at a greater rate than the general population. Unmarried and socially disconnected individual, mathematicians or otherwise do. Therefore the correlation with mathematicians and suicide is unfounded, though there were several famous mathematicians that did, or attempted suicide. Yes, the decision is a function of the conscious mind; the intellect. But it is certainly not the result of an inability to solve a mathematical problem, or the fact that these individuals were mathematicians.






« Last Edit: 18/10/2007 05:06:11 by johnbrandy »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #17 on: 18/10/2007 09:37:08 »
JohnBrandy - absolutely.

If you want to play with statistics you could say that an alcoholic, repressed lesbian Canadian female aged 20-24 with substantial debts and who is a 1st generation immigrant to Sweden is most likely to commit suicide.

Here are some suiside FACTS not conjectures...

"Many of the highest risk professions for suicide rates are related to agriculture - farmers, rural vets, stable workers."
Richard Brook, chief executive of the mental health charity Mind.

Stack and Gundlach (1992) observed a significant, positive relationship between percentage of radio airtime devoted to country music and white urban suicide rates.

In 1996, more teenagers and young adults died of suicide than from cancer, heart disease, AIDS, birth defects, stroke, pneumonia and influenza, and chronic lung disease combined.
National Alliance on Mental Illness

There are 3 major schools of theories relating to suicide -  sociological, psychological, and biological.

Commonly, sociological theories are based on the idea that suicides result from the level and amount of control society has over an individual and the effects of social conditions and social changes on the person.

Psychological theories typically focus on conflicts within the individual; one's thought processes, emotions, and personality characteristics, the stage of development, and the ways in which the person's family functions.

Biological theories are based on the examination of biological aspects of suicide such as the influence of genetics, hormone levels, and neuro-transmitter levels in the brain.

Suicidal acts take on very different meanings in each individual case. It is tempting to apply one of the many theories. It appears, however, that the most complete understanding requires one to look beyond theories and conjecture to the concrete evidence. Rather than asking why someone would commit suicide, the question can be asked as "What problem or problems was the person trying to solve?"

The beaver has spoken!  :D
« Last Edit: 18/10/2007 10:00:13 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline dkv

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Reasons of suicide
« Reply #18 on: 04/11/2007 14:27:21 »
No one commits suicide.
It is the mind the concious mind which forces one to take such exterminating step. AND WE FIND GOOD INTELLECTUALS HELPLESS .
Which means in terms of life skills the Intellectuality doesnt equate to intelligence. Intelligence is so much essential to any problem.
Some problems simply demand an idea or concept beyond the usual intellectual gossip.And the idea is not known to anyone.
 

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Reasons of suicide
« Reply #18 on: 04/11/2007 14:27:21 »

 

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