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Author Topic: What’s in your shampoo?  (Read 27894 times)

Offline deepthinker

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #25 on: 22/10/2007 19:41:28 »
I had to chuckle at the photo above  :D but it made me think again.

I think I understand the example of vanilla, although surely if 'natural' vanilla is ever used in a product, all the other compounds that are a part of the vanilla should be listed? At what stage does the natural vanilla become something else due to the other compounds?

Does the C8 H8 O3, describe the chemical structure and compounds that make up vanilla? I assume they are individual chemical elements (something to do with carbon, hydrogen and oxygen?) Is it the same for both the natural and synthetic varieties?

Going back to that picture; that brand's website make a big thing of having 'natural' ingredients, but which ones are 'natural' and which synthetic? (have listed them below)


The ingredients they list are:
Aqua   Solvent
Cetearyl Alcohol   Viscosity Controlling Agent
Dimethiconol   Hair Conditioning Agent
Cetrimonium Chloride   Hair Conditioning Agent
Parfum   Fragrance
Phenoxyethanol   Preservative
TEA-DodecylbenzeneSulfonate   Surfactant
Cetyl Hydroxyethylcellulose   Viscosity Controlling Agent
Citric Acid   pH Adjuster
Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone   Fragrance
Butylphenyl Methylpropional   Fragrance
Hexyl Cinnamal   Fragrance
Limonene   Fragrance
Linalool   Fragrance
Propylene Glycol   Solvent
Sodium Hydroxide   pH Adjuster
Sodium Sulfate   Viscosity Controlling Agent
Lawsonia Inermis   Botanicals
Glucose   Botanicals
CI 14700   Colourant
CI 42051   Colourant
CI 47005   Colourant

Many thanks for answering, what I am sure are daft questions!
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #26 on: 22/10/2007 19:58:43 »
"Can you clarify a few points for me though? You say these chemicals must be ok as we live longer, but I thought many of these chemicals were fairly new?"
Most of them are older than me so people dying today have probably been exposed to these chemicals for at least half their lives. Also since the average lifespan is increasing and the exposure to these chemicals is also increasing it's hard to say they are doing any harm.

"How do we differentiate between a 'natural chemical' and a synthetic one?"
I generally don't. There are ways to check if a chemical is man made from oil or coal rather than from a plant or animal source- the obvious one is to carbon date it.
However what I was saying was that if I get limonene from a chemical supplier it's proably pretty near pure- I only need to know about the effect of limonene on people. If I use lemmon oil then I also need to worry about all the other chemicals.

"Some people have suggested that our bodies have evolved over centuries to deal with chemicals found naturally as they have been present in one form or another in nature, but some of the newer ones accumulate as our bodies cannot deal with them."
Partly true the chemicals that accumulate in this way like DDT and the PCBs have broadly speaking been banned, also our bodies are very good at detoxification of all sorts of chemicals; the liver doesn't need to know if they are natural or artificial- it metabolises them anyway.
 

Offline SaraSearching

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #27 on: 22/10/2007 22:48:55 »
"Some people have suggested that our bodies have evolved over centuries to deal with chemicals found naturally as they have been present in one form or another in nature, but some of the newer ones accumulate as our bodies cannot deal with them."
Partly true the chemicals that accumulate in this way like DDT and the PCBs have broadly speaking been banned, also our bodies are very good at detoxification of all sorts of chemicals; the liver doesn't need to know if they are natural or artificial- it metabolises them anyway.

But I thought parabens were also being found to accumulate? Is that not one of the things suggested by "Concentrations of Parabens in Human Breast Tumors by P.D. Darbre, A.Alijarrah, W.R. Miller, N.G. Coldham, M.J. Sauer and G.S. Pope Journal of Applied Toxicology, 24, 5-13 (2004)?
 

Offline chris

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #28 on: 23/10/2007 00:03:04 »
That's so funny
 

Offline Karen W.

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #29 on: 23/10/2007 06:37:06 »
Oh, to add something else to the mix of shampoo, just check out the directions on how to use Aussie Shampoo.  Each one of them are different and guaranteed to make you laugh.(yes, I am easily amused especially when they include some lyrics to a song on them.) ;-)
In Italy, instead, we have shampoos that makes you fall in love...
Would you like to try the one I have?   ;)

Sounds like great shampoo! LOL!
 

Offline Karen W.

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #30 on: 23/10/2007 06:37:56 »
LOL...I'll have a number 11, 18 and 23 with egg fried rice !!... ;D

*insert green faced smiley*  ***gulp*** bon appetit!!

Do you have life insurance???


- found one


I've tried making shampoos in the past but have not been all that successful from what I remember.
I've dabbled with soapworth - which btw. is used by restorers to clean valuable tapestries etc. Must look
back into this one.

Karen if you have a recipe that works please pass it on

Kadie what Kate and Quantum say is correct. Some of it ends up in your system.
That reminds of the study someone did regarding how talc ends up in women's ovaries and then ends up causing cancers.
Not fun that!!!!

Moonfire (lovely name!) the aussie shampoo directions are hillarious as are their adds - I've burst out laughing
a couple of time on the London tube and netted some pretty strange looks.  ;D

Here in the UK we have a company called Lush that supposedly makes cosmetics with less nasties in it.
Last time I looked I was not impressed with the ingredients in their moisturizers. They do make a dry
shampoo bar. Gotta check into that again........



Sorry forgot about this thread.. I will find it and pass it on!
 

Offline Karen W.

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #31 on: 23/10/2007 06:40:22 »
LOL...I'll have a number 11, 18 and 23 with egg fried rice !!... ;D
Apparently egg is good for your hair, according to some middle-eastern tradition, I'm not sure whether it's myth or fact though...
Maybe. At the radio, yesterday, they said lemon juice is very good too!

I use to use lemon juice to help lighten my hair in the summer. With the sun and lemon juice it had the effect of a soft bleaching kind of streaky! Very nice actually!
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #32 on: 23/10/2007 19:39:44 »
Parabens are relatively readily metabolised so I don't see them accumulating much. Also, I believe that are naturally produced too so we have been dealing with them for a long time- well before chemistry existed.
 

Offline SaraSearching

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #33 on: 24/10/2007 09:30:34 »
Parabens are relatively readily metabolised so I don't see them accumulating much. Also, I believe that are naturally produced too so we have been dealing with them for a long time- well before chemistry existed.

But I thought some research*1 specifically mentions the accumalation of parabens?

From what has been said about natural vs synthetic, could it be that the 'natural' parabens that are found in fruit, have that extra something that helps the body metabolise them (in the gut?), where the pure version, when applied to the skin, accumalates as that 'something' is missing?


*1 Sawsan El Hussein, Patrice Muret, Michel Berard, Safwat Makki, Philippe Humbert (2007)
Assessment of principal parabens used in cosmetics after their passage through human epidermis-dermis layers (ex-vivo study)
Experimental Dermatology 16 (10), 830–836. newbielink:http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-0625.2007.00625.x [nonactive]
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #34 on: 24/10/2007 20:12:38 »
The TV program that got a mention earlir in this thread measured urinary excretion of parabens (etc) they also persuaded those taking part to stop using the cosmetics and switch to "chemical free" versions (obviously, that's not meaningful but I didn't write the script).
The quantity of parabens they were excreting fell rapidly which sugests that it cannot accumulate- the amount coming out is the same as the amount going in.
 

Offline SaraSearching

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #35 on: 25/10/2007 10:53:52 »
The TV program that got a mention earlir in this thread measured urinary excretion of parabens (etc) they also persuaded those taking part to stop using the cosmetics and switch to "chemical free" versions (obviously, that's not meaningful but I didn't write the script).
The quantity of parabens they were excreting fell rapidly which sugests that it cannot accumulate- the amount coming out is the same as the amount going in.

I think the "amount coming out is the same as the amount going in" might be a mistake as Darbre seems to clearly say "This adds parabens to the list of environmental oestrogenic chemicals that can be found to accumulate in the human breast"  *1


*1 Concentrations of Parabens in Human Breast Tumours,Journal of Applied Toxicology v.24, i.1, 1jan04,P. D. Darbre, A. Aljarrah, W. R. Miller, N. G. Coldham, M. J. Sauer and G. S. Pope
 

Offline Alandriel

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #36 on: 25/10/2007 20:07:12 »
Thanks people for adding to this thread and keeping it alive and interesting ;D



That pic is fab!!!!!!!! Thanks Andrew ;D ;D



Quote from: Andrew
Early Puberty linked to Shampoos Containing Estrogen
I know!!!  :o [V]
This is scary and I fully echo the what do the makers think they’re doing sentiment.
It is unbelievable sometimes what is on our shelves without proper testing. [:(!]
Even essential oils can mimic hormones, we’ve known that for years and that’s why they should be treated with respect. It seems the perfume/cosmetic industry is not held to the same high standards than aromatherapy practitioners when they formulate their products.
Recently over here tea tree + lavender essential oils in shampoo have been blamed (article). They should blame the producers, not the product! 


Quote from: Bored chemist
If I use lemon oil then I also need to worry about all the other chemicals……… Wouldn't you be better off with nice pure limonene rather than some random mix of about 50 chemicals?

True – yet…there is good reason to also want to ‘worry’ about all the other chemicals that make up a substance, for often those other substances are important in the overall ‘balance’ of things.

This brings me of course to the old ‘argument’ of naturally buffered aspirin argument. Acetylsalicylic acid was originally extracted /isolated from white willow (salix alba) and also from meadowsweet (Filipendula ulmaria) and later copied chemically. In its pure form, salicylic acid can attack the stomach lining, something the more balanced (impure) herbal preparations of willow bark tea / meadowsweet tea don’t do thanks to a number of other chemicals, classified as non-active or even as impurities.

Thelemon oil you mention – thanks btw for those fab chromatogram links  ;D - contains a whole plethora of other ingredients, all of which add up together to make lemon essential oil, which – as a whole – is much more balanced and less active/aggressive than the single substance limonene.


Quote from: deep thinker
How toxic are you ….

Never mind channel 4 right now…. I agree that that program is very biased and not very well researched (but then what is, on this topic?). This is something that does worry me, and more and more the more I find out about the topic.
Recently I read a book called The vitamin murders .
Book review, the Guardian

The books about the suspicious and unsolved murder of the eminent biochemist, Sir Jack Drummond but that’s a bit beside the point here. It’s also about the demise of high nutrient food in Britain, the rise of pesticide use etc. In the story the authors undertook to find out just how toxic they were. According to them they took blood and tissue samples and had them analyzed. The results were, apparently, quite revealing
Quote from: The Vitamin Murders
the test reveals that Fergusson "contained significantly high levels of DDT, DDE, HCB, PCBs, p-dichlorobenzene, dieldrin and chlordane". Analysis of his wife's breast-milk reveals the presence of all these too, although they are described as being "well within background exposure levels".

Well within background exposure levels???
Apparently the country is not quite as ‘natural’ and wholesome as we all thought (or rather as I thought)



….. aaaaanyway……..




Quote from: deepthinker
At what stage does the natural vanilla become something else due to the other compounds?
IMO there is no ‘stage’. Natural vanilla varies, in quality, taste, its composition from year to year and where it is grown under what environmental conditions etc. That’s what makes it natural – the variables.
Get yourself a vanilla flavored e.g. cookie or ice cream or whatever and then either make something containing real vanilla and see the difference for yourself.


Quote from: DrDick
By the way, was your shampoo a "conditioning shampoo"?
No, not specifically.
Thanks also for adding more specifics. The SLS/SLES concern me specifically as I’m finding that more and more people develop sensitivities to these. There are very few shampoos currently available without SLS/SLES and I’m still trying to find out why that is so and what alternatives there are.
I’ve found Sodium Coco-Sulfate mentioned but am still doing more research. Any help / pointers are most appreciated.


Quote from: Bored chemist
The quantity of parabens they were excreting fell rapidly which suggests that it cannot accumulate- the amount coming out is the same as the amount going in
Now that’s somewhat reassuring.
Quote from: Sara
I think the "amount coming out is the same as the amount going in" might be a mistake as Darbre seems to clearly say "This adds parabens to the list of environmental oestrogenic chemicals that can be found to accumulate in the human breast"

… and then again not!


****sigh **** I wish all this were a lot clearer to understand for dummies like moi







« Last Edit: 25/10/2007 20:09:01 by Alandriel »
 

Offline Totty

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #37 on: 07/12/2007 23:39:31 »
I love reading the ingredients list. My friend used to think I was weird and once yelled out in chemistry "I get some shower gel and smell it and think 'ohhh that smells nice', you're the only person I know that thinks 'ohhh what ester have they used?'" lol. To be fair it smelled like oranges and I just wanted to know what making it do it! :)

I've barely gotten over the shame of the stares. But I still do it all the time! Not that I really understand what I'm looking for - only a word with the ending -oate! :)
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #38 on: 08/12/2007 18:29:41 »
"The lemon oil you mention – thanks btw for those fab chromatogram links   - contains a whole plethora of other ingredients, all of which add up together to make lemon essential oil, which – as a whole – is much more balanced and less active/aggressive than the single substance limonene."
Is there any evidence for this or it it just an assertion that "natural is better"? What does "balanced" mean here?
 

Offline Alandriel

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Re: What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #39 on: 09/12/2007 21:10:00 »
It is not an assertion that 'natural is better' for it not always is. The way I meant 'balanced' - not a good term I now realize is as 'whole'.
limonene is an isolated compound that naturally occurs in lemon essential oil. It can be synthesized I'm sure in the lab and can then added to various things ~ shampoo in this case to give a lemon scent. Problem is often that people have sensitivity reactions to isolated limonene but don't have any negative effects when the whole lemon essential oil is used.

As such, I call the lemon essential oil more balanced - whole, so to speak with fewer sensitivity reactions than just the limonene.

I don't know if it makes sense but another comparison of aspirin comes to mind. Salicylic acid
originally isolated from willow bark can cause gastrointestinal distress and for such sensitive people now comes 'buffered' while the all natural willow bark is natrually buffered.

The isolated active compound is certainly more potent than the natural source material but that sometimes is disadvantageous.
 

Offline DrDick

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What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #40 on: 11/12/2007 18:40:28 »

Quote from: DrDick
By the way, was your shampoo a "conditioning shampoo"?
No, not specifically.
Thanks also for adding more specifics. The SLS/SLES concern me specifically as I’m finding that more and more people develop sensitivities to these. There are very few shampoos currently available without SLS/SLES and I’m still trying to find out why that is so and what alternatives there are.
I’ve found Sodium Coco-Sulfate mentioned but am still doing more research. Any help / pointers are most appreciated.

There's essentially no difference between sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS) and sodium cocosulfate (except for the name, of course). 

Technically, "lauryl" refers to a 12-carbon chain, but in the industry, this just means that the average chain length is approximately 12 carbons.  It's actually a mixture of materials (e.g., 8 C, 10 C, 12 C, 14 C, etc.).  When they get a weighted average, it might be, say, 12.1 carbons.  That makes it "lauryl".  The root "coco" means it comes from coconut oil, which just happens to have an average chain length of about 12 C.

Dick
 

Offline Bored chemist

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What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #41 on: 11/12/2007 19:29:43 »
Much of the "salicylic acid" in willow bark isn't the free acid. It's present as the coresponding alcohol conjugated to a glucose molecule.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicin
 That would reduce its tendency to atack the gut in much the same way that reacting salicylic acid with an acetylating agent to make asprin does. It only gets converted to the true drug (salicylate) after it has left the gut.

This
"Problem is often that people have sensitivity reactions to isolated limonene but don't have any negative effects when the whole lemon essential oil is used."
is interesting since it could lead to ways of supressing hypersensitivity reactions. Do you have any references to it?
Another thought that occurs to me is that other componds in lemon oil might block UV and scavenge oxygen, preventing conversion of limonene to other, more harmful, materials.
 

Offline Professor Gaarder

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What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #42 on: 02/03/2008 02:54:05 »
My shampoo is a dry-scalp shampoo, thus further qualifying me as a nerd. let's see:

water, ammonium laureth sulfate, glycol distearate, glycerin, cocamid MEA, cetyl alcohol, fragrance, aloe barbadensis leaf juice, dimethicone, tocopheryl acetate, panthenol, acetamidopropyl trimonium chloride, linoleamidopropyl, PG dimonium chloride phosphate, PEG-3 dioleoylamidoethylmonium methosulfate, dimethiconol, sodium lauryl glucose carboxylate, lauryl glucoside, amodimethicone, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, sodium dodececylbenzene sulfonate, laureth-9, DMDM hydantoin, benzyl alcohol, C11-15 pareth-7, trideceth-12, propylene glycol, sodium chloride (there's table salt in my shampoo?!?!), citric acid, hydroxyethylcellulose, FD&C blue no. 1 (245-063).
 

Offline Anarchistkid

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What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #43 on: 03/03/2008 02:42:00 »
i'm sure all these chemicals are damaging to your body on some level but you aren't going to die from using shampoo are you?
 

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What’s in your shampoo?
« Reply #43 on: 03/03/2008 02:42:00 »

 

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