The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Usefulness of Glyconutrients  (Read 292035 times)

Offline tphreak

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #125 on: 29/11/2005 23:06:33 »
Hey guys, just want to let you know first off that I am no medical expert. I am just a guy who has done his due diligence and believes that glyconutrients are something worth looking at. I've been taking these glyconutrients for 3 months now, and have had phenomenal results. I play tennis at a professional level, so my level of fitness is very important to me. Since taking these glyconutrients, I've felt an increase in strength, stamina, agility, speed and a decrease in stress.

A response to the moderator (Ylide): From reading your first few messages, I can already tell that you are probably a medical expert from the terminology that you use and a huge skeptic of glyconutrients, which is perfectly fine! But I don't believe you have thoroughly done your research (i may be wrong). I believe that you're just spitting out opinions that you've been taught in University, which is not your fault. But please, I urge you to do your research on glyconutrients so you won't have any biased opinions.

To answer some of your questions: Yes, the body can synthesise the 6 or 7 sugars that are void in our diet (We get glucose from just about everything, and galactose from dairy products, the rest are void), but it takes a lot of time and energy to do so. Thats why we need to supplement. No one claims that you should take glyconutrients alone and that it will cure all things (if you are, stop doing it, because you can't make a drug claim on a natural product). All glyconutrients does for your body is give it the materials it needs to do its jobs. The scientific focus aims at cell to cell communication. When cells have these eight biological sugars (not normal table sugars, or any other carbohydrates/monosaccharides that turn into glucose, but eight specific biological sugars that do not turn into glucose) this helps the intercellular communication. When cells communicate better, cells get healthier. When cells get healthier, our bodies get healthier, and thats when we can perform at our optimal level.

As far as sugar ultimately killing you. Once again, these are eight specific biological sugars that do not turn into glucose. These sugars coat our DNA! So I guess I should be dead now right? (Excuse my sarcasm, but I want to get my point across =) ).

As far as eating synthesised food and natural food. Natural food is definitely the way to go. Your cells know when you're giving it synthetic food or natural food. Synthetic food, the cells will take up some of it, yes, but it will reject most of it. If you give it natural food like fruits and vegetables, or in this case, glyconutrients that are derived from fruits and vegetables, the cells will take up all of it. If you're talking about your body synthesising the sugars, then I'm not sure if it takes up all of it. I'm guessing it will seeing as though its come from the body, but once again, it takes up a lot of time and energy to do so.

Im sure you wrote more on the topic Ylide, but I unfortunately didn't take the time to look at them all. Hope it answers some questions for you all. If any of you have any questions, please feel free to email me. If I can't answer a question, I'll find someone who can.

Dr John Axfod and Dr Boyd are coming to Melbourne, Australia tonight to talk about glyconutrients. Should be very informative. They are both members of the Royal Society of Medicine, so highly respected professionals. Royal Society of Medicine, I'm told, is probably one of the most, if not the most, prestigious medical fraternity in the world (correct me if I'm wrong).

Anyway, gimme a holla if you have any questions on glyconutrients, peterbong21@yahoo.com.

Peter

ps, oh, someone said that we don't get the nutrients we need in our bodies because of how our food is shipped and processed. That is true. Grocery stores like Coles and Safeway, and even Walmart, pick their fruits and vege's green to prevent bruising during shipment, then they gas 'em to make them big and red. But of course, you're not getting the nutrients in them, you're just getting the look of a ripe fruit. I could be wrong in saying this, maybe you could email Walmart, Safeway or Coles to find out? I doubt they'd tell you the truth though.

pss, Damnit, i forgot to refer you guys to some websites. newbielink:http://www.glycoscience.org [nonactive] (an award winning website). newbielink:http://www.dralex.com [nonactive] <~~~~ just found this site. There are others, but I'm not allowed to say. Just do your research! Good luck.
 

Offline tphreak

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #126 on: 29/11/2005 23:14:49 »
Forgot to mention. These are 100% natural products. There are no toxic side effects whatsover, so you can't overdose on the product. So for those people who think "I don't know what to believe with supplementation, there are so many adverse side effects". Well, I can tell you for fact that these have no side effects whatsoever. And once again, you take these products in supplementation to the normal food you eat. You don't eat glyconutrients alone!

Mannatech, the nutriceutical research and development company that have produced these products, tried to make these products into a drug because of how powerful they are. They couldn't. They failed one test. Its called an LD 50 rating, where you have to kill a certain number of rats (50% of the population) for it to become a drug. You know that drugs are toxic in definition right? Well, how many rats we killed? None! We did the reverse, we made them healthier! lmao. Well, ok, i lied, we did kill one rat. We just fed it glyconutrients over and over again, and because rats can't regurgitate, the one rat suffocated. But ya, couldn't make it into a drug. Mannatech's products go through regular testing by the governing bodies of health. The TGA governs the products here in Australia. Im not sure in other areas of the world. You'll have to find that out yourselves.

All I can tell you is to do your research for both parties (for and against) or take the products on blind faith and see what happens.

Peter
 

Offline tphreak

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #127 on: 02/12/2005 22:44:55 »
Manna doesn't mean "what is it?". I have no idea where you got that from Falariel. Manna was the food GOD provided for the Israelites in the desert when Moses was taking them away from Egypt. Do you remember reading that? Correct me if I'm wrong though.  

The dictionary says its also "Spiritual Nourishment of divine origin" among other things.

Peter
 

Offline tphreak

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #128 on: 02/12/2005 23:25:39 »
I've been reading more of the forum, just wanted to answer a few question I read.

For all you people asking "I have/my friend has/my dad has... will glyconutrients help?" Think about this. The scientific focus is on cell to cell communication. When cells can communicate better, they get healthier; when they get healthier, our bodies get healthier. Let me explain it this way:

Cells communicate in much the same way as we do. We have letters in our words. If one of the letters are missing in a word, we can't make out the word right? Right. So cells also have a cellular alphabet to make up words. They have eight letters (which are the 8 glycoproteins/sugars). Now what happens is your good cells/killer cells goes around your body rubbing over other cells to read it (they rub over each others glycoproteins to communicate). To find out things like, if the other cell needs feeding, cleansing, regulating, to be left alone if its a good cell, or to be killed if its a bad cell. Now if one of the letters/glycoproteins are missing from the cell, then the killer cell can't read it. So it has two choices. Choice number 1 is it can kill it, you know its better safe than sorry right? But if that cell is a good cell, than your body is attacking itself. Which is an auto immune problem. Which are diseases like AIDS, allergies, asthma, arthritus, lupus, Multiple Sclerosis, Hepatitis C, and diabetes. Its just your body attacking itself. Or choice no.2 is, because the killer cell can't read the other cell because one of the glycoproteins are missing, choice no.2 is it can leave it alone. But if that cell is a cancer cell, then you've got a tumour growing! You don't have cancer because your chemotherapy deficient and its not a problem with your immune system, your killer cell could kill the cancer if it knew you had cancer... Interesting ay?

So as far as other diseases not mentioned above, think of it this way. Your body isn't getting the nutrients or materials it needs to defend itself. Once your body gets the materials it needs to defend and repair itself, your body will get better. Your body is an amazing thing, if you cut yourself, it heals. If you sprain your ankle, it heals itself over time. All you have to do is give the body the materials it needs to repair itself and glyconutrients may be the materials it needs.

As far as asking your doctor about this, he/she probably won't know about this stuff because it wasn't introduced till 1996. They would have got their degrees before that and wouldn't have studied this new technology. Doctors rarely update themselves on new technology because of how busy they are. I would suggest you do your own research on this stuff for both sides or take these glyconutrients on blind faith and see if they work.

There are many scientific/medical journals and magazines that talk about glyconutrients and how its going to impact people's health (whoever says their is little research done on this subject is totally wrong). Its already impacting peoples health. There have been many clinical studies done on this new science. The Fisher Institute has done extensive research on it and have published their findings. You can buy these documents from their website.

You must also remember that medical professionals will rebuke this new technology. Why? Think about it. The average cancer patient is probably worth $300,000 to them. Why would they want a natural supplement taking away their $300,000? They would say, take this drug, it'll make you feel better. Then you'll come back with another symptom because of the drug that you're taking. The doc will say "here take this drug to cure that symptom". The next thing you know, you'll be taking 25 different drugs trying to cure the drug you took before that.

So please please please do your own research. Don't take their word for it, don't take my word for it. Just do your own research and satisfy your own mind.

Peter

ps newbielink:http://www.glycoscience.org [nonactive]
 

Offline smilzandchuklz

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
    • http://www.mannapages.com/candyk
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #129 on: 03/12/2005 07:41:47 »
Things really heated up again.

Duanne, your story changes so often it's not funny. One post you're arguing that Mannatech does not have the research, the next you're posting like a zealot how people can get great results of Mannatech's product by concocting their own version. Then you advise people that if they have the money, to buy it from Mannatech.

You try to write like you're such a professional and as if you know all your research and facts like the back of your hand, but your attitude is holier than thou. It seems that you're writing in this way because you hate MLM. Then you recommend to people to purchase one of the ingredients from an MLM. You attempt to intimidate those who recommend the product in your postings (one person in particular).

It does not seem to be a coincidence that you often respond right after Kitty Cat. Do you think no one notices your beligerence and intolerance?

From reading your postings I have gathered that you are really not in disagreement that the product actually works in the human body. You have gone to great lengths to provide people with a way to produce their own. So come clean. Let go of your silly argument that the research is not there. It's there, just not in the way you want to see it, and that's the point you're using to try to dissuade people from Mannatech. Things do not have to go your way, and they won't. You are not God, it is not compulsory for research to be done your way in order for a product to be effective for many people, and you should be ashamed of yourself for purposely attempting to get under people's skin and for trying to defame a company which produces a product that you undoubtedly know produces a product that works. I say that you undoubtedly know the product works because if it did not, you would not be recommending to people to make their own, you would not be passing on a recipe for 'the exact same thing' and you would not be telling people the names of the companies to buy the ingredients from as well.

I don't appreciate your arguments because of the chip on your shoulder. Get rid of it. Drop your immature bit about 'insufficient research'. You must be real unhappy and miserable with life. That's the message you put across. It's disappointing that it's sold only through MLM, but it makes a happier life to leave well enough alone rather than go to all the effort of spreading a bad word. You must be tired from all your arguing.

Sick'n'tired of being sick and tired?
newbielink:http://www.mannapages.com/candyk [nonactive]
 

Offline Eric

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #130 on: 05/12/2005 22:50:31 »
Ok, I'll bite. :-)

Is the human body really capable of breaking down plant polysacharides, restructure them into small sugars, and use that to create the glycoproteins found on cell surfaces?

Or is it only possible to create glycoproteins by ingesting monosacharides?
 

Offline loweduane

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #131 on: 06/12/2005 04:01:39 »
For Eric.

No.  These substances are not broken down by your body into the monosaccharides.  A small amount may be liberated by certain microorganisms, but the amount would be so small as to be virtually insignificant.  

You could take the monosaccharides, most of them are available via the internet, but you would find that the results would not be the same as the ingredients in these supplements.  This is because they don't work by forming glycoproteins. That is marketing hype by Mannatech.

Do they have some health benefit?  Yes.  

There is research on the individual substances that show their benefit is because of other mechanisms, such as stimulating immune function via receptors inside the intestine, and increasing production of short-chain fatty acids by bacteria in your intestine, and prohibiting growth of yeasts and opportunistic microorganisms in the large intestine, as well as other mechanisms.  There is research on the individual substances which show health benefits, but nothing I have read in the hundreds of articles/abstracts that I have read suggest that any benefit is because of absorbing any individual sugars other than possibly glucosamine (which is well known use for arthritis).

Smilz you seem a little uptight.  You need to relax more.

Yes, these substances can have health benefits for some people, including stimulating the immune system, and there is a lot of research on the individual substances that explains how this happens.

I have a problem with Mannatech promoting a fairy-tale hypothesis about absorbing 8 sugars, and trying to support it with research articles that have nothing to do with their product, while they ignore the research that shows the actual mechanisms.

I am glad that Mannatech has put together a supplement that can help a lot of people, but anytime someone sells something to help people for 1000% mark-up, I find that ridiculous.  Especially since you can buy the same ingredients from the same companies that they buy them from.  

Have I recommended Ambrotose?  Yes.  For some who just want to initially find out if it can help them, but don't want to take the time and effort to put together the ingredients separately, I have suggested that they try one container of Ambrotose.  If it works, and they are going to take it for a longer time, then they will be more motivated to put together the ingredients for themselves.

48% Arabinogalactan (ImmunEnhancerAG made by Larex)
12% rice starch (filler that makes it dissolve in water better)
10% of each of the other ingredients.

The Curezone.com forum has listed many places to get the various ingredients for great prices.

When someone posts information to this forum that states information as if it is fact, I try to point out where the the science ends, and the marketing material begins.

Yes Ambrotose can help some people.
No, I think Mannatech is a mercenary company whose prices rape the public.
Kitty Cat and I actually get along quite well, though we disagree on some things.
And yes, I have an attitude.  But at least my attitude is based on knowledge, and not on ignorance and dogma, and is many Mannatech Associates.
No, Mannatech Associates don't like me, but non-associates seem to love me, and constantly ask for more information.

Good luck.
Duane
 

Offline smilzandchuklz

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
    • http://www.mannapages.com/candyk
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #132 on: 06/12/2005 06:10:13 »
Duane, I would prefer that you don't display your attitude at all, if you can't make it positive for everyone, no matter how much you hate the company. Some of your comments make it unenjoyable for people who are trying to understand how the glyconutrients work because they have to filter out the attitudes, pokes and judgements. You're actually distracting people from your own points. You obviously would like to see MT go under and cease to exist, but if weren't for MT, the many people who have started searching on the internet for info on this topic would never have come across this forum, and ultimately, would never have come across your illegal recipe. By the way, I would also rather pay a company for a product with absolute correct portions of product especially when you're putting in active ingredients rather than doctor up my own. What if some people mistakenly add incorrect portions? What if their ingredients have sat on the shelf so long they are no longer active? Who's to blame? What might happen? (I thought of this when I considered making my own.)

I personally would never have known about these sugars, and that these particular 8 are commonly found in the sugar chains of glycoproteins, which in turn, are absolutely essential for proper cellular communication, if it weren't for a Mannatech Associate. If she hadn't have known about it, I would still be exhausted, and my son would still be frequently ill I'm sure.

I find it hard to believe your comment that the research has nothing to do with the product. I don't mean to sound interrogative, but I'd like to cull your brain a bit. Answer me this: have you read up on the history behind how glycobiology came to be, and have you read up on how MT came up with the product? Have you read the studies that brought the doctors and scientists together which confirmed their own findings, and the article in Harper's Biochemistry 24th Edit (1996) by Dr.R.K. Murray that confirmed these doctor's findings? The author of the article in Harper's Bio that I quote here noted specifically that the 8 sugars: Glucose, Galactose, Fucose, Mannose, Xylose, N-acetylglucosamine, N-acetlgalactosamine and N-acetylneuraminic acid are commonly found in the sugar chains of glycoproteins.

Are you aware that drug companies now are finding ways to incorporate glycobiology into the manufacture of their drugs? The reason why is because they are well aware that cellular communication is key to efficacy of their drugs. (Cha Ching!) I'd rather be giving my money to a company that produces a preventative product rather than let sickness catch up with me and end up paying who knows how much for a toxic drug to be more readily absorbed by my body.

Please quote the studies that you mention. I want to read them if I haven't already. I'd like to get a grasp on where the heck it is that you're coming from. I think you really misunderstand glycobiology and glycosylation, from what I've read of your posts.

For those of you trying to understand how/where the 8 sugars are being 'absorbed':

Glycosylation is a metabolic process by which the saccharides (the aforementioned sugars) are chemically attached to the various substrates such as proteins or lipids. These may be surface molecules or specific enzymes, for example. (copied from The Healing Power of 8 Sugars, compiled by A.C. Somersall, Ph.D., M.D.  

The point of the 8 in one product: as quoted from The Healing Power of 8 Sugars: "Almost all plasma proteins in human - except albumin - contain sugars. All cellular membranes have proteins containing sugars. A number of blood group markers are proteins with sugars. Some hormones (such as that used for confirming the pregnancy tests) are proteins with sugars. The sugar chains contain many different linkage possibilities giving rise to a code of biologic information...Then, if the addition of the vitally necessary sugars makes these precursors more readily available to the cells for inclusion in glycoprotein synthesis - that could readily explain why 'sugars' as nutrients (glyco-nutrients) could be so effective when used in supplement form. All evidence to date seems to concur" (The book is first printed and copyrighted 2005).

Sick'n'tired of being sick and tired?
newbielink:http://www.mannapages.com/candyk [nonactive]
 

Offline smilzandchuklz

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
    • http://www.mannapages.com/candyk
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #133 on: 06/12/2005 06:14:32 »
Oh, and another important fact about the 8 sugars in Ambrotose:

5 of them are found in breast milk.

Does this help anyone who is interested in the 8 sugars?
 

Kittycat

  • Guest
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #134 on: 06/12/2005 06:57:10 »
Hi Smilz,

I enjoyed your reference to drug companies developing drugs with the carbohydrates. Here is a good site. Maybe if they didn't put so much money into their site the drugs wouldn't be so expensive. Just a thought.
http://www.pro-pharmaceuticals.com/aboutus-video1.htm
Thanks for your involvement in this forum, KC

His grace is sufficient and His strength is made perfect in my weakness
« Last Edit: 06/12/2005 07:10:15 by Kittycat »
 

Offline Eric

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #135 on: 06/12/2005 17:14:47 »
quote:
Originally posted by smilzandchuklz

Oh, and another important fact about the 8 sugars in Ambrotose:

5 of them are found in breast milk.

Does this help anyone who is interested in the 8 sugars?



It only helps if you're willing to sell some breastmilk. :-)
« Last Edit: 06/12/2005 17:15:41 by Eric »
 

Offline loweduane

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #136 on: 06/12/2005 18:24:12 »
Smilz

I don't post for MT Associates.

I don't stop posting for MT Associates either.

You continue to spout the MT marketing line, and you have no idea what you are talking about or you would know that glycobiolgy and "glyconutrients" as marketed by MT are two completely different things.  If you can't find the references I have talked about in PUBMED, then I highly doubt that you have the vocabulary and scientific background necessary to read the actual articles.

I will continue to post when incorrect material is listed here to market the products.  And those looking for an "objective" evaluation of these substances will continue to thank me for it.

Have a great day, I am.

Duane
 

Offline smilzandchuklz

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
    • http://www.mannapages.com/candyk
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #137 on: 07/12/2005 22:18:41 »
For those who are researching glyconutrients, and their effectiveness:

Glycobiology and Glycoscience both refer to the new emerging science which seeks to understand the chemistry, biochemistry and physiology of glyconutriens and glyconjugates, and their applications to health and disease.

Glyconutrients are a food supplement, and do not treat, mitigate, or cure any disease. Glyconutrients refer specifically to the eight monosacharides (sugars) commonly found in glycoproteins and glycolipids. They are nutrients inasmuch as they can be supplied exogenously in dietary foods or food supplements. They are absorbed efficiently in the body.

The 8 monosaccharides are:
Glucose
Galactose
Fucose
Mannose
Xylose
N-acetylglucosamine
N-acetylgalactosamine
N-acetylneuraminic acid

Some papers/articles on glyconutrients and the Immune System:

R. K. Murray, "Glycoproteins" Harper's Biochemistry 24th edit.

Adachi K, Nanbo H, Kuroda H, Kuroda H, "Potentiation of host mediated antitumor activity in mice by Beta-glucan obtained from Grifola frondosa (Maitake)." Chem Pharm Bull, 1987

Kossi J, et al., "Effects of hexose sugars: glucose, fructose, galactose, and mannose on wound healing in the rat" Eur Surg Res. 1999

Dwek RA, Lellouch AC, Wormald MR, "Glycobiology: the function of sugar in the IgG molecule" J.Anat. 1995:187

Sathyamoorthy N, et al., "Evidence that specific high mannose structures directly regulate multiple cellular activities" Mol Cell Biochem. 1991

Campbell B, Busbee D, McDaniel H. "Enhancement of immune function in rodents using a proprietary complex mixture of glyconutritionals" Proc Fisher Inst. Med Res. 1997

Carbohydrates and Biology. Science Magazine 2001

Feizi T. 1989 Carbohydrate recognition in cellular function. Ciba Foundation Symposium, vol. 145 Wiley, New York

Fukuda M., ed. 1992. Cell surface carbohydrates and cell development CRC Press, Boca Raton, Fl

Presentation - 3rd Annual Conference, New Initiatives in the Prevention and Intervention of FAS/FAE for Aboriginal People of Canada, May 2003, Vanc, BC, Available as a technical syllabus from the Fish. Instit.

Sick'n'tired of being sick and tired?
newbielink:http://www.mannapages.com/candyk [nonactive]
 

Offline loweduane

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #138 on: 09/12/2005 18:34:32 »
For those looking here for an objective perspective: (I don't work for any company selling these substances)

Yes, the 8 individual sugars are absorbed.  

However, the ingredients in Mannatech's products are not the individual sugars.  But undigestible chains of sugar (dietary fiber).  

Research continues to show that the beneficial effect of these supplements is not related to the absorption of the individual sugars (except maybe glucosamine - for arthritis), and most of them are metabolized into short chain fatty acids by bacteria in your large intestine.  And there is no current evidence that they increase the production of even one glycoprotein.

This is not to say they don't work, they just don't work the way Mannatech says they do.  There is an abundance of research that shows the actual mechanims at work when you evaluate the actual ingredients in the supplement (Arabinogalactan, Acemannan, Gums, etc.)  

They don't cure everything, contrary to the belief and claims of Associates, but they can have some significant impact on various conditions, and are worth a try.  

The curezone.com forum has a lot of posts where you can buy the actual ingredients separately for much cheaper than Mannatech, or you can try the alternate recipe by Dr. Bird, which many people have great effects from becaused of the other beneficial nutrients that it contains as well.  One person there posted his resources and got the recipe down to about $5.00 per 100gm.  Now that is a savings.

Feel free to contact the chemistry department of your local college/university and ask for a person who specializes in this area of "glycobiology" or "glycochemistry" who are not associated with Mannatech, and they will verify what I have said about the digestibility of these substances.

Duane
 

Offline Glycogeek

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #139 on: 10/12/2005 01:21:51 »
Hey Duane,
Good to see you in this forum. It is also good to see you are part of the MannaFam,
newbielink:http://www.mannapages.com/sharethegift/index.asp?CountryCodeID=1&sMainMenu=MemberDirectory&sMain2Menu=na&sSubMenu=na&sSubMenuItem=na&sSubMenu2Item=na&sSubMenu3Item=na [nonactive]

Smilz brought up one of the concerns I have about homemade glycos. Especially for people who have serious health problems.

Hey we are doing the same thing. I help people with the products too. I help them get them for free and pass on my bonuses etc to them. No commission made here either. I do like the idea of dealing with a respectable company such as Mannatech knowing that their products are standardized and that they use top notch ingredients.
What's your opinion? Thanks in advance, Geek

quote:
Originally posted by smilzandchuklz

Duane, I would prefer that you don't display your attitude at all, if you can't make it positive for everyone, no matter how much you hate the company. Some of your comments make it unenjoyable for people who are trying to understand how the glyconutrients work because they have to filter out the attitudes, pokes and judgements. You're actually distracting people from your own points. You obviously would like to see MT go under and cease to exist, but if weren't for MT, the many people who have started searching on the internet for info on this topic would never have come across this forum, and ultimately, would never have come across your illegal recipe. By the way, I would also rather pay a company for a product with absolute correct portions of product especially when you're putting in active ingredients rather than doctor up my own. What if some people mistakenly add incorrect portions? What if their ingredients have sat on the shelf so long they are no longer active? Who's to blame? What might happen? (I thought of this when I considered making my own.)


« Last Edit: 10/12/2005 01:33:43 by Glycogeek »
 

Offline Michael

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #140 on: 14/12/2005 00:32:07 »
Manna does mean "what is it".  When the Israelites saw the hoar-frost looking material for the first time, this is what happened: (Exodus 16:15) When the sons of Israel got to see it, they began to say to one another: “What is it?” For they did not know what it was. Hence Moses said . . .

Ex 16:15 ftn. “What is it (this)?” Heb., man hu´? Syr., ma·nu?

Thereafter that phrase "what is it" became the name of the miraculous bread. (Exodus 16:31) And the house of Israel began to call its name “manna.” And it was white like coriander seed, and its taste was like that of flat cakes with honey. . .

See also the Hebrew dictionary of Strongs Ehaustive Concordance of the Bible, word numbers 4100 and 4478.

Regards,
M. Cameron

 

Offline tphreak

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #141 on: 15/12/2005 12:13:48 »
Um... After reading that, I dunno if I'm the dumb one, or you are? I'm not trying to diss you, you're statement just makes me feel really dumb at the moment, cause I can't seem to find your reasoning behind it. I'm reading the bible right now, and I'm trying to see how you are right.

Exodus 16:12 states: "I have heard the complaints of the children of Israel. Speak to them, saying, 'At twilight you shall eat meat, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread. And you shall know that I am the LORD your God."

Exodus 16:13 - So it was that quails came up at evening and covered the camp, and in the morning the dew lay all around the camp.

Exodus 16:14 - And when the layer of dew lifted, there, on the surface of the wildreness, was a small round substance, as fine as frost on the ground.

Exodus 16:15 - So when the children of Israel saw it, they said to one another, "What is it?" For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them, "This is the bread which the LORD has given you to eat"

You were right in the first sentence, but you neglected to continue... why?

Exodus 16:31 - And the house of Israel called its name Manna. And it was like white coriander seed, and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.

I dunno if I'm interpreting those verses wrong or something, but from what i gather, Manna is the bread which the LORD has given to his people.

How you interpret it, it sounds like "OoOoO, look, a round shaped orang thing" "what is it?" "Its an orange." But it means "what is it?" I don't get it...

Do you see my reasoning? Does anyone else see this person's reasoning? Or is it just me that doesn't get it?

Peter

ps, I wasn't being sarcastic, I really just don't get how you get "what is it?" from Manna. And if ppl agree with you, I really do feel dumb, because I really don't get it.
 

Offline adamlespaul

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #142 on: 16/12/2005 16:40:14 »
Ok, hi. Good forum.

First of all, Vitamin E gets a bad rap, but there is more than one form of vitamin E. There is Vitamin E (d-alpha) which is rarer because it is more expensive, and there is Vitamin E (dl-alpha), which is terribly prevalent, and all negative stuies of vitamin E are based on this kind. The dl-alpha is literally extracted from coal tar. Wonder why it causes problems.

Concerning Glyconutrients... it is true that the body CAN create all of the necessary sugars, but it requires a very complex and complicated process for the body. Certain things liek stress, toxins, poor nutrition can inhibit this process. These are things the body needs... it's more an issue of whether you want your body to work an unnecessary amount or not.

BTW, concerning Vitamin C. Vitamin C evaporates almost instantly when it comes in contact with oxygen. So if you want fruit juice to work, it does need to be fresh squeezed and drank son afterwards, otherwise it is ineffectual. Drinks in the store that say they have vitamin C are bunk. Don't buy it. The best thing you can do it peel an orange and eat it.

Thanks.
 

Kittycat

  • Guest
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #143 on: 18/12/2005 02:45:36 »
Hello Everyone,
Hopefully this will clear up any confusion regarding the assimilation of glyconutritional supplementation.

A slide presentation by Robert K. Murray, MD, PhD:  

http://www.doctorshealthcall.com/Basic%20Science%20of%20Sugar.htm

Dr. Murray received his medical degree from the University of Glasgow, Scotland, in 1956. He interned at Victoria Hospital, London, and then completed a further year of post-graduate training at the University of Michigan, USA, where he was awarded an MS degree in Physiology in 1958. This was followed by three more years of graduate research in Biochemistry at the University of Toronto, Canada, culminating in him being awarded a PhD degree in 1961.Upon completion of his PhD, he received an appointment as Assistant Professor at the University of Toronto. In 1965 he was appointed Senior Post-Doctoral Fellow, Oncology and Pathology, at the University of Wisconsin, returning to the University of Toronto in 1968 as Associate Professor, Biochemistry, where he was appointed Professor in 1973.

Dr. Murray had a distinguished teaching and research career at the University during which he received Faculty and Alumni awards for teaching, trained more than a dozen graduate students, published over fifty scientific peer-reviewed papers, authored multiple textbook articles, and was one of authors of the last five editions of 'Harper's Biochemistry', the 25th edition of which has just been published in 2000.

Since 1998, Dr. Murray has served as Professor (Emeritus) at the University of Toronto and recently as a consultant in carbohydrate biology and biochemistry to the nutritional supplement industry.


(This post is for educational purposes only)
Glyconutrition does not treat, cure or mitigate disease in any shape, form or manner.

His grace is sufficient and His strength is made perfect in my weakness
 

Offline loweduane

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #144 on: 19/12/2005 16:14:50 »
This presentation talks about glycobiology and the individual sugars, it does not address any information that would show that the ingredients in these supplements (soluble fibers, not individual sugars) have any direct effect on the glycobiology, except in the colon, where it admits they aren't well digested.

I don't think it clears anything up at all.  As I have said before, it is like an article telling us the benefits of minerals in our diet and then telling us we can get these minerals by eating rocks.

Considering his credentials, one would hope he would be a little more intellectually honest.  There is no way he could be this smart and knowledgeable and not know the 8 sugar hypothesis has almost nothing to do with how Mannatech's supplements work.  Which makes him more of a used car salesman than a scientist in this regard, regardless of how altruistic his motivation.

Sorry if people find my posts inflammatory or insulting.  I try not to be, but I just don't like to be lied to by people who know the truth, no matter what their justification.

Yes, glyconutrients work, but I don't think anyone should have to lie to me about how they work just to convince me to try them.

More acknowledgement on the effects of these supplements on the microorganisms in the human intestine is a step in the right direction though.  

Duane
 

Offline Calm

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #145 on: 01/01/2006 01:55:38 »
Duane!  Great information.  Thank you.  I realise I am posting to an old thread here but I was hoping you could help me with something.  I understand what you are saying about the bioavailability of the sugars in those supplements and it bothers me also.   (although apparently, even on a science forum, some think that is irrelevant information [V])  

What I am wondering is the bioavail of the sugars in the homemade powders or in foods.  The homemade powders are made of the same basics, so that leads me to believe they are subject to the same issue.  However, perhaps food isn't?  I treat glyconutrient deficiency via neurolink, which corrects the body's ability to make and use the sugar communication of cells.  It does not "augment" the diet.  So I am interested to learn if there is a way to augment the diet with glycos.
Thanks!
 

Kittycat

  • Guest
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #146 on: 03/01/2006 20:29:07 »

Hello,

Recently several people have contacted me and with question and expressed their concern about the negative communication in this forum. They have express that this troubles them.

I hope to encourage anyone feeling that way to ignore the attitudes they find troubling.
Especially for those who are ill and seeking to have their health restored through glyconutrition.

I find it sad that there are people who are not open to hearing the good news, however I have decided to focus on the people who need it, who are willing to use it and the people who are recovering. Please don't let the bad attitudes discourage you. There will always be those who will act in a way that seems to try to destroy anything that is good.
Their voices will fade in the background of this phenomenal gift.

One thing that is good for us to remember is that carbohydrate research is disruptive technology and that glycobiology has been considered one of the 10 technologies that will change the world.  Change usually doesn't happen in a smooth fashion especially when it confronts the mega billion dollar medical industry.

Though many doctors and scientist think that the body is self contained and does not need to eat these nutrients, I am convinced that time will prove this theory wrong. There are thousands of people having their health transformed  by using glyconutrients and I don't think they would believe anyone who says that the body will manufacture these nutrients only when needed.

I have mentioned in previous posts that we are receiving more and more reports of wonderful progress. Some of these recoveries are not medically possible.

Here some of the recent reports we have been getting:

27 yr. old recovering from TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury or major brain damage)
was in a vegetated state. After a year on glyconutrition he is now eating, talking, and relearning to walk.
----
Autistic boy's behavior changed and the whole family noticed and his teacher commented on improvement in his comprehension. He got his first "A" in school and his teacher did not know that he was using glyconutrition.
-----
Lady with metastisized cancer is improving and stabilizing.
----
70 yr.old lady with fibromyalgia is doing great with more energy than she knows what to do with. Her comment was she has too much energy and wears herself out.
----
Lady with diabetes sugar level is dropping and she comments on feeling better with a sense of calm that she hasn't had before.
----
God bless you, KC
His grace is sufficient and His strength is made perfect in my weakness
« Last Edit: 04/02/2006 01:34:28 by Kittycat »
 

Offline loweduane

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #147 on: 10/01/2006 01:14:54 »
Well then, in order to be more positive, upbeat and helpful:

Here are the alternative formula's that people can use that so far appear to be equally effective  (especially since the first one is the same ingredients/formula as Mannatechs product - Ambrotose):

Glyco-1 formula (from Mannatech's Patent - same ingredients at "AMBROTOSE")

48% Arabinogalactan (ImmunEnhancer AG from Larex, the only manufacturers.
12% Rice Starch (Filler? Improves solubility? digests into glucose)
10% Manapol (Patented Aloe vera extract from Carrington Labs).
10% Glucosamine
10% Gum Tragacanth
10% Gum Ghatti

Here is one person's sources for the ingredients:

http://www.curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=223&i=1951 [nofollow]

Last I checked, 100 grams arabinogalactan (made by the same company that supplies Mannatech) was only $16.00 - that's only $8.00 per 100 gram batch of formula for the main ingredient.  (There are 48 grams of Arabinogalactan in each 100gm container of Mannatechs product)


Dr. Birds Formula (contains polysaccharides composed of the same types of sugars found in Ambrotose but in other plant-based ingredients- and also contains some other nutrients including some very potent plant-based antioxidants.)

Here is the listing: (information from Dr. Bird posted at many sites).

http://www.burnoutsolutions.com.au/glyconutrients.htm [nofollow]

Here is a link to one persons very economical sources for ease of putting it together:

http://www.web-graphique.com/glyconutrients/source_list.htm [nofollow]

Many people have noted beneficial results with both recipes. Even those who have switched to them from Mannatech's products. No one yet has said that they have had to go back to Mannatech's products after switching. All have noted that it is significantly more economical, especially when taking one or more teaspoon doses each day.

PILOTLIGHT, at the Curezone forum, also bought a large supply of Gum Ghatti, and has offered it to those who are interested.

According to Mannatech, in a paper concerning the development of their "Advanced Ambrotose

"While formulating Advanced Ambrotose, several other improvements were made. We removed rice starch and replaced it with oat fiber to provide a better source of glucose in the form of beta-glucans, molecules well accepted by the scientific community as important for immune support. We removed the Larix decidua-sourced arabinogalactan and substituted gum acacia, which contains all the sugars in arabinogalactan, as well as three other important sugars—rhamnose, galacturonic acid, and glucuronic acid." (http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:0qP_SXcc_SAJ:www.mannapages.com/sharethegift/RDReport2005.pdf+gum+acacia+saccharides&hl=en [nofollow]):

While the main ingredient in "Advanced Ambrotose" is now Gum Acacia (a.k.a. Gum Arabic), vs. arabinogalactan, "which contains all the sugars in arabinogalactan" it should be noted that Arabinogalactan does has several studies showing it does have effects on the peripheral immune system, Gum Acacia does not.

If looking at individual saccharides that make up Gum Ghatti, note that it does not add any unique "essential" sugars that are not found in the other ingredients. You could technically just double the Gum Tragacanth, and be getting about the same amount of the individual saccharides..if that was your goal.

However, since Mannatech found it beneficial to replace the main ingredient in Ambrotose with Gum Arabic, you could always replace the Gum Ghatti with that substance. One site sells one pound for $7.95 (http://www.raivinfire.com/product_info.php?products_id=2148&company=Froogle&campaign=RaivinFire&adgroup=Shopping)and [nofollow] there area many others selling it too.

It is great that so many are getting so great a benefit from these products.  Hopefully this post will allow those who have been hesitant because of the cost or MLM association to give it a try.  Then even more people can have the great health effects that these substances (as opposed to a specific brand name) can have.

Hope for better health to all.

Duane
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #148 on: 10/01/2006 09:34:48 »
Duane

Brilliant job. One lump or two anyone?

"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
 

Offline loweduane

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #149 on: 12/01/2006 07:58:45 »
This post seems to be completely out of character for KittiCat.

KittiCat has been one of the Mannatech Associates who, in the past, has always shown a lot of heart, care and concern for people and their health problems rather than the profit making aspect of Mannatech.

While we disagree on the science and explanations of these supplements, we have always agreed that they can have much benefits for people who take them. Sometimes people get in a bad mood, or have a bad day, and say things in a way that they normally wouldn't or make personal attacks that really don't have anything to do with what is really the issuess. I'm sure this must have just been one of those days for her. I would like to continue thinking of her as one of the sincere associates whose real care and concern is truly for people.

That being said, I will address the issues that she raised.

KC WROTE: "1. People reading this topic and being influenced by someone who continually tries to insult and shame others, esp. the co-author of the Harper's Biochemistry textbook, Robert K. Murray, MD, PhD., or Dr. Ben Carson, and Dr. Reg McDaniel, etc. and other highly respectable doctors and scientist who are leading in the field of glyconutrition. To actually accuse these doctors of lying and other shameful accusations, is outrageous to say the least."

I have reviewed my posts, and am sorry if KC thinks I have tried to "insult and shame" these doctors. I continue to point out the large gaping holes in their information they present for those who may not be as familiar with the science. While they should be eminently qualified, and knowledgeable in this area, their explanations continue to use the legitimate science of glycobiology and then make quantum leaps in unproven hypotheses that are promoted by the company that they work for.

I am not the only one who feels this way. H.H.Freeze, one of the preeminent experts in Mannose, whose references are often used by these doctors, has also noted their innaccurate interpretation both on the web, and in e-mail communications I have had with him. Also, consider the following excerpt from an article written in November in the New Zealand Herald:
_______________________
"George Slim, a former glycobiologist, who is director of Biotechnology Policy for the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology explains that all proteins on the outside of cells have some sort of sugar attached to them.

"Those can be varied very rapidly to provide a huge number of cell-to-cell communication events - even information as simple as blood groups are all based on glycoprotein sugars and glycolipids [fats bound with sugars]."

Slim says it is true too that mannose - one of the eight glyconutrients pushed in Mannatech's sugar pills - is important "in cell-cell signalling and the immune response".

The big gap between the real and pseudo science is the inference made about Mannatech's products - whether regularly taking an expensive supplement will make any difference in cell-to-cell communication and overall health. Slim says the science says no.

"Your body has a whole series of metabolic pathways which will quickly flip one sugar into another. So you eat a spoonful of sugar and by the time it is in your stomach it is already turned into a whole series of sugars just by the action of acid."

Once sugar is absorbed and taken into cells, it can be changed into mannose or any of the other glyconutrients.

Laurence Melton, professor of Food Science at the University of Auckland, agrees. "You store carbohydrates in your body as glycogen which is a polymer of glucose. So if you insisted on eating fructose [fruit sugar] in large amounts then what you don't use in energy would get converted to glycogen anyway - the glucose polymer."

Melton questions where the evidence is that we aren't getting enough of these obscure sugars in our diets or that we once used to. He disputes too that the nutritional value of food is being depleted.

"That's nonsense. There is every reason to believe the quality of food is improving, not declining."

Slim is dismayed at the way the science is being trivialised.

"Mannatech has taken some perfectly credible and very exciting science and substituted this big link - that taking these pills nutritionally makes a difference to the way sugars operate in the body. That link hasn't been substantiated."

He says anybody on a normal diet and without an enzyme deficiency is perfectly capable of making any of the sugars they require. "I think it's nonsense to suggest that taking mannose or any of these other sugars in your diet is going to have any effect whatsoever."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=500829&ObjectID=10336055 [nofollow]
_______________________

I wholeheartedly disagree that they are "leading in the field of Glyconutrition." Despite the research out there showing the actual mechanisms of how these supplements work, they continue to tow the Mannatech 8 sugar hypothesis, without any scientific support that these supplements (which aren't even the 8 sugars) effects are secondary to absorption of these sugars, or that anyone is deficient in them. How can they lead in the field of Glyco-anything when they quote other researchers research, and they don't even publish any themselves? Wouldn't that make the people whom they quote the leaders? In fact, I haven't read any statements or information from any reputable glycobiologist, who is not associated with Mannatech, who would agree with you about their inflated importance. They are what they seem to be...employees of Mannatech who are selling a product.

If you mean they are "leading in the field of Glyconutrition" because they are convincing salesmen, and more people are buying glyconutrients from Mannatech because of their sales presentations, then I would have to agree with you. But I thought you meant the scientific field.

KC WROTE: "2. People are being led away from the truth. Please do your own in-depth research. You are NOT the "ignorant public".

Led away from what truth? Yes, please do your own in-depth research. On this point we agree. Read my posts, read Mannatech's marketing material, even e-mail them and ask them the questions I have raised, and see what answers they give. Also e-mail or call glycobiologists at your local University and see what they have to say. You might want to try this yourself KC rather than listening only to people who work for Mannatech.

KC WROTE: "Batch consistencies, proper processing, product/company integrity and shelf life are being overlooked.
From what I understand people are having a hard time mixing all the ingredients and getting the right consistency... ...In order to attain the health you are looking for, it is crucial that you have support and understanding of the healing process. I believe it is a priority to have a support person or team who is willing to work with closely you."

I have read over the posts on this forum and have found people asking for help in getting all of the ingredients, but I have not found that people are having a hard time mixing all of the ingredients at all. Did I miss something? Most have said it is quite easy and fast, and many are already reporting great benefits. Isn't that what you want??? People getting better?

Batch consistencies? Proper Processing? You can call Carrington and Larex, who are the same people who supply Mannatech and ask them about this. Or you can call the companies, like Food Science of Vermont (DaVinci Labs) and request information from them. I think you will be impressed with their answers, and willingness to share them.

Support Person or Team????? I thought that is what this forum was for. I think it is doing a great job, and that includes your posts (except your last one). Thanks

KC WROTE: "Please do keep in mind that you are dealing with a military chiropractor, who appears to be spending numerous hours jumping from forum to forum and could be abusing tax dollars or violating federal laws in doing so and not doing his military job."

"As for me, I try not to listen to what is being said, but HOW it is being said. How a person communicates his opinions shows a lot about his character.
It is my goal to try to communicate the truth in love, though I fall short many times. The way we treat each other is a priority and will have a direct affect on the rest of our lives and perhaps our health."

This was a stretch, and totally out of character for you. What did this personal attack have to do with the subject? Did you think it would damage my credibility?

If you will go back to my posts you will find that the times I wrote them are usually after 10 p.m., or very early in the morning, or on weekends, or my days off. Not during the work day. Are you really so concerned that someone is abusing your tax dollars? "Forums" and "chat" areas are blocked on military computers at domestic bases, so you should not concern yourself that federal laws are being violated in order to bring quality alternatives to the glyconutrient seeking public. Was this some kind of a veiled threat to try and scare me off so I wouldn't post here anymore?

How did you get so desperate? I thought we were trying to be "positive", upbeat, supportive.  Your statement about listening to "HOW it is being said" should make you look over your post and ask about the tone and content of your last post.    

If a janitor at the local grade school made the same posts I have made, it would make no difference, as long as the information was accurate. Though I have the credentials and education to have found the gaping holes in Mannatech's marketing material, and the presentations by the scientists that they send out to promote it, the proof is in the facts, the actual research, and the science, not in the credentials of the one that presents it.

If I have made errors in what I have said, then lets discuss it. Present the research that contradicts what I have presented, or answers the questions I have raised. If there is some magical processing step that makes Ambrotose superior to mixing the same ingredients at home, then what is it? Stick to the facts if you want to support your point to the people reading these forums. Attempts at trying to demean someones character, or veiled threats to try to stop them posting do not add anything to the discussion about glyconutrients.  

I have noticed that no matter how dispassionately I have pointed out the scientific problems with Mannatechs explanations, and have tried to present this information objectively, you always interpret anyone who disagrees with you as being "negative."  I have pointed out where you have presented false or unsupported information.  It is nothing personal, just trying to help people see fact from fiction, and if you have anything to show where I am wrong, great!  Present it.  I am beginning to believe that the only thing you accept as "positive" communication is where someone agrees with you, even when you are wrong?

As I said, I hope that your post was just a reflection of a bad day. We appreciate the many testimonials that you have posted, and the support and normally caring attitude you present. If you really do have any science or research that sheds light on where my posts have been incorrect, I think many people would be interested in reading them.

KC, I continue to wish you luck and health.

Duane
_____________________________________________
17 Jan 2005

Though I have tried to defend KittyCat's integrity in this post, she keeps making it harder.  

KC - If I have any evidence of where I have made any "Misleading" statements about Mannatech or Dr. Murray, please point them out and give your support as to where I have been mistaken.  

Anyone who points out the fallacy of Mannatech's mistaken explanations, or the mistakes in their presentations, you consider "mean" or "rude" or "damaging".  So far you have shown no interest in seeking the truth on these topics, and you give no evidence to support your position concerning Mannatech's faulty science or to back up your concerns about making these recipes at home.  

If Dr. Murray didn't lie in his presentation, then address the concerns I noted at the curezone forum.  Either I am wrong, or he lied.  Give evidence where I am wrong, and you easily prove your point.  

You admit that you have no background in science.  I do.  I am not going to ignore blatant misrepresentations of science, just because you are not comfortable with it.  If I am wrong, investigate it.  Ask your experts at the conferences you go to, and find out the answers, with the evidence to support them.  Then present them here for discussion.  If you cannot find the answers, then you have to ask WHY.  

Pointing out the gaping holes in Mannatechs marketing material is not "mean" or "negative".  If it is wrong, it was wrong long before I brought it up.  I am just pointing it out to people.

And I will continue to point it out, over and over again, regardless of the fallacies and unsubstantiated ad hominem attacks and baseless accusations Mannatech Associates use to draw attention away from the actual issues.

When my children argue, and one of them realizes they are wrong, but won't admit it, they start calling the other child names, or they will hit the other child because of their frustration.  This is typical human behavior, depending on the childs maturity, self-control, and humility.  The same can be said of adults...

Again, I wish you luck, and pray for you in seeking truth, and the humility to accept it.

Duane
« Last Edit: 17/01/2006 07:36:01 by loweduane »
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Usefulness of Glyconutrients
« Reply #149 on: 12/01/2006 07:58:45 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
 
Login
Login with username, password and session length