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Offline Titanscape

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« on: 01/02/2008 06:57:21 »
What do you make of NDEs and OBEs, and this former atheist's testimony?

www.aglimpseofeternity.org

http://Http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5979215757846504940


 

Offline neilep

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« Reply #1 on: 01/02/2008 13:24:33 »
What do you make of NDEs and OBEs, and this former atheist's testimony?

www.aglimpseofeternity.org

http://Http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5979215757846504940


Let's have your opinion Bren to give us something to feedback to you !
 

Offline that mad man

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« Reply #2 on: 01/02/2008 17:05:57 »
Reading the story I don't think he was pronounced clinically dead and could have been suffering hallucinations from the stings. Also reading the story its debatable whether he was an atheist in the past.

Experiments with LSD and other hallucinogenics shows that lots of people who suffered hallucinations believe that they have been spoken to by God or had visions of God. Timothy Leary did many experiments of this kind. Most of the people who had a God like experience were ones that either have a belief or weren't sure of what they believe in.
The most famous dreamers in the past were the prophets who in trance like states saw God or supernatural beings in their dreams.


I have a friend who did die when he was 14. He was knocked off his push-bike and rushed to hospital where after a time he was pronounced clinically dead. After several minutes he was then moved to another room when it was noticed that some of his muscles were "twitching" and resuscitation was started again. Although badly injured he survived the ordeal.

You can understand that this is something he does not talk about much but I know bits of what happened.

He is now 31, suffers from depression and is a self harmer. From talking to him what annoys him most is that his life before the accident is completely blank. Its as if all his memories of childhood etc have been wiped from his brain.

I know he feels "robbed" and gets upset sometimes as he cant remember growing up.


But, back to the story.

I have difficulty believing anyone who believes in visions however induced.




 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #3 on: 04/02/2008 01:55:35 »
I met Ian and heard him after I chose the same faith. It encourages me, the description of resurrection power in his soul.

The idea there is something underlying his conscious mind that is much bigger interests me, could there be such a thing? Id?

He was badly stung.

Spiritual people think hallucinogens are a way to communicate with the dead, such as in necromancing.

He is intelligent and is sure years later that he met Jesus, as do otheres who died by heart attack... and others have similar OBEs like www.GaryOates.com

I met a Lutheran pastor who died on the operating table. And a friend died a nd went down a tunnel, to alike a WW1 battlefield, with people crawling around on a smokey, pitted, barren landscape.

He desribes being healed of the parchedness of his heart and being accepted by an intelligent person who knew the scriptures. I am sure it was not an hallucination. For six weeks after he read the scriptures.
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #4 on: 04/02/2008 10:13:25 »
When a person is in an altered state of consciousness their brain is far more likely to misperceive the already fabricated reality it presents to the mind. The brain does not represent reality perfectly. It makes a simulation which is under careful regulation, but when something like a drug, injury, near death experience, or anything else that impairs or changes the normal operation of the brain, it's more prone to error. It is extremely probable that it will imagine things that aren't really there, and mistake them for being real, and extremely improbable that the "visions" experienced during a NDE accurately represent reality. There is a lot of research being done into this area of brain science.

Hallucinations, visions, or experiences of a supernatural theme, are not evidence for the existence of the objects of the hallucinations. They are evidence for the delicacy and fallibility of the human brain.
 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #5 on: 06/02/2008 09:32:42 »
In the difficult state of being poisoned, it can lead to error of interpretation, but people having the same dreams, more so hallucinations, and hearing things they can check in the scriptures, and compare dreams with others? How can it be?

So after they recover, and discern, they still believe what they saw. Years later.

Is there some super parts to the mind, greater than the conscious mind? And why would the wisest most powerful components be shown up in hallucinations rather in duress, and life threatening situations?



« Last Edit: 06/02/2008 09:35:07 by Titanscape »
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #6 on: 06/02/2008 10:30:41 »
Our brains all have similar basic structures and functions, and these can be altered in similar ways. Sleep, dreams, hallucinations, etc. are altered states of consciousness. In altered states of consciousness our perception is very unreliable. No sane person should trust anything they experience if it can't be verified by independent sources. The brain is really good at making things up. In altered states of consciousness, very few restrictions are placed upon it (i.e. few external stimuli or conscious mental checks), so it runs wild.

I would ask what kind of dreams you claim have been experienced by multiple individuals. My guess is that they are very common dreams, or only vaguely match each other, or have similarities simply because of exposure to the same cultural references, e.g. bright light at the end of a dark tunnel.
 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #7 on: 06/02/2008 14:05:25 »
Ezekiel, Gary Oates, Ian McCormack, there are books full of testimonies.

But is our mind the same thing as our brain?
 

Offline that mad man

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« Reply #8 on: 06/02/2008 15:24:17 »
One thing I do find in common and also strange is that these people seem to have some sort of perfect recollection of their dream states.

Dreams by their nature are normally fragmented and for most people very difficult to recall. What I find common with all this is that most of these people with perfect recollection are also selling or promoting something, either a book or themselves.
Like you say "there are books full of testimonies" and I presume all are for sale. 

This sort of thing I also find suspicious:

"If you feel lead to support the ministry financially we certainly do appreciate it. If you do feel to send us a love gift, please send it in the form of either a cheque or money order to the following address:-"

      Ian & Jane McCormack


Then we have the Gary Oats promotion.

"A two day supernatural healing summit @ $390 single and $790 double, meals and lodging included."
Then there is the Transformation Summit @ only $1690 per person plus a number of mp3's for sale and...

I would have more respect for these people if they truly embraced their belief and did it for free!

Our mind when vulnerable can be easily tricked and as with hypnosis we normally have a belief first that it is possible.

 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #9 on: 06/02/2008 21:29:58 »
The mind is what the brain does. It's the only reasonable conclusion.
 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #10 on: 07/02/2008 03:07:10 »
I read that the for every action of the mind there is a corresponding action in the nervous system.

If we didn't give offerings to pastors, they'd have to work part time instead of minister full time. I saw Gary Oates, night sessions are free usually, in most all churches.

These phenomenon are more than dreams. They are OB perceptions.
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #11 on: 07/02/2008 12:05:28 »
OB experiences are being studied and are likely a failure of the brain to incorporate the mental world into the physical body correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #12 on: 22/08/2009 17:28:09 »
This link has a documentary. Science of the brain and mind. People see themselves being operated on, and recall details. A blind woman, sees for the first time. Blind when recovered.

Psychology and physiology, relativity... apply. People's brains in NDEs have died and no longer function.

 

Offline demografx

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« Reply #13 on: 22/08/2009 23:07:51 »

What I find more difficult to explain away are the similarities amongst all the NDE's, the tunnel, the white light, the dearly departed, the observation of final moments from above, etc. Are there good explanations for these NDE similarities?
 

Offline demografx

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« Reply #14 on: 22/08/2009 23:12:50 »

Chronologically ordered flashbacks of life events in near-drownings also seem odd. Are they just examples of brain misfirings?
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #15 on: 23/08/2009 02:12:59 »
Quote
Are there good explanations for these NDE similarities?

Yes, it is what we expect to see.

Think about it...
 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #16 on: 23/08/2009 06:51:46 »
An interesting similarity yes. Especially when a woman born blind sees the same things in her NDE. She could not have expected it.

Also the similarities here are conscious observations in sight and sound of their operations, tools and tool boxes... while the brains are dead, in several cases. Questioning what generates consciousness...
 

Offline Don_1

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« Reply #17 on: 24/08/2009 07:30:31 »
Was this man so badly stung? Maybe, maybe not, but one thing's for sure, he's making a fortune out of stinging others now.

If there's one extra thing to put me off religion, its people like this.
 

Offline glovesforfoxes

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« Reply #18 on: 24/08/2009 09:05:42 »
i really am bored of religious adaptation to the new unexplained phenomenon. can't people just accept that spiritual and scientific domains should just not cross? the correct scientific and the correct religious way of viewing things do not necessarily coincide, because one is interested in truth, and the other is interested in the correct moral standard.
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #19 on: 24/08/2009 11:16:38 »
What do you mean by "correct moral standard" ?
 

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« Reply #20 on: 24/08/2009 12:04:04 »
I think it's used as a convenient shorthand to describe the sort of behaviour which makes the human species survive best.
The short term needs of the individual must often, clearly be subservient to the needs of the majority  for H. Sapiens to do best. The "majority" must also include other species, too, of course. Cooperation is at least as important as competition throughout Evolution.
This explains why 'Green-ness' and altruism are necessary, innate qualities which we all need to have evolved. This was clear, in a non-academic way, throughout our history and Religions would have been the only way to communicate it in the past. The modern 'intellectual', Humanist,  approach is probably just as fraught, as a way forward; we're all human, after all.
As we all know, once a group of individuals starts to promote a particular version of this "correct moral standard", it gets out of hand and we have the Spanish Inquisition, the Taliban and the Born Agains, none of whom are spotless.
 

Offline glovesforfoxes

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« Reply #21 on: 24/08/2009 12:49:12 »
yup, sophiecentaur phrased it well. :) i'd like to add that as an extra safeguard, nearly all major religions advise some form of humility in their followers. they're really quite good for emotional wellbeing.

letting science influence moral conduct to a large degree is very much a mistake. it's why i dislike dawkins' musings about religion.. it seems to me that he sees religious people as idiots - they are not, he is just judging them from different standards than you're supposed to with religion. worse, it promotes this tension between religion and science that just isn't necessary, and makes them seem like opposites. they're no more opposites than apples and oranges are opposites - they are just different versions of belief (and i use that word with the widest possible definition)
the problem is much greater than one man though!

i guess what really bothers me about the religious adaptation to science is that they feel it is necessary to stay credible. if they stayed in the domain of what they're meant to teach about, rather than what they think they know about, it would be much simpler to be a scientist and religious without being called an idiot, having both a spiritual and intellectual side that are fulfilled instead of just the intellectual that we see in a lot of cases today..

for the record, i am not religious, but i do like buddhism quite a lot :P
« Last Edit: 24/08/2009 12:52:20 by glovesforfoxes »
 

Offline demografx

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« Reply #22 on: 28/08/2009 04:55:49 »
Quote

Are there good explanations for these NDE similarities?


Yes, it is what we expect to see.

Think about it...


Expected? Well, maybe 'dearly departed', yes, or 'religious figures' (if I were religious)....but before I ever heard of NDE's, I don't think I would have expected seeing "indescribable light" (which I have seen in a lucid dream), passing through a dark tunnel, or seeing myself from above.

This doesn't mean I'm a believer, but I wish I had the time to investigate more those 'unexpected' items.
 

Offline RD

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« Reply #23 on: 28/08/2009 06:36:53 »
... I don't think I would have expected seeing "indescribable light" (which I have seen in a lucid dream), passing through a dark tunnel, or seeing myself from above.

This doesn't mean I'm a believer, but I wish I had the time to investigate more those 'unexpected' items.


http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=25110.msg271134#msg271134
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #24 on: 28/08/2009 09:25:59 »
Quote
Expected? Well, maybe 'dearly departed', yes, or 'religious figures' (if I were religious)....but before I ever heard of NDE's, I don't think I would have expected seeing "indescribable light" (which I have seen in a lucid dream), passing through a dark tunnel, or seeing myself from above.

This doesn't mean I'm a believer, but I wish I had the time to investigate more those 'unexpected' items.


Most people have heard of NDE's and what happened with them, indeed most people have an idea of what 'heaven' would be like, a bright light, a tunnel etc. It has been portrayed in numerous different films.
If it is imprinted in the brain, then when the event has passed the brain can attribute a memory to it to process and understand what has happened. The brain is surprisingly impressionable, as in the case of false memory syndrom and eye-witness testimony.

RD has given a good description of the physcical affets of hypoxia in his link too.
 

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« Reply #24 on: 28/08/2009 09:25:59 »

 

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