# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Gravity and the nature of space and time.  (Read 8154 times)

#### angst

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##### Gravity and the nature of space and time.
« on: 11/02/2008 01:27:18 »
I have been mulling over an idea. I refuse to call it a theory because I lack the mathematical skills and the knowledge of physics to put forward a theory of any competence, so I put this idea forward for discussion.

On a different topic somebody said that they doubted that we could travel backwards in time. From my simplistic understanding of Einstein's theories of relativity I have toyed with the idea that the reason for our relative notion of time is that any movement within space that we make is a movement against the 'flow' of time. I supposed that everything exists at one point in time, and that any movement that we make within space-time cannot be forward of our position in time. Thus, whenever we make a movement in space, that we also make a movement in time (or, should I say, a move toward a movement in time), and that that movement is, by necessity, backward in time.

To a certain extent this supposition is backed up by the difference in time between for example, a clock on Earth and a clock on one of the GPS satellites orbiting Earth  - which run slightly faster than those on Earth.

I thought on this some more, and thought also of the wave nature of matter...... is it possible that gravity is the effect of the flow of time upon our motion in space?

It would follow that, if a movement in space is a movement against the flow of time, that that flow of time would be forcing every notional point in space back toward a singularity.

Considering the wave nature of matter, I thought about the movement of a notional point in space, and therefore it's attempt at moving back in time, as being as much a factor of it's wavelength (and thus velocity) within the nature of it's matter as it's motion in space as we might immediately understand it(ie within a particulate understanding of matter). The thought then occured to me that what Einstein predicted as 'matter' reached the speed of light would be that it's mass would increase, and I wondered if larger mass objects might not be notional points in space (and their wavelength) being the result of velocities moving toward the speed of light.

Given that time and velocity are relative, is it possible that the effects of gravity that we see is the result of(in terms of, for example, trying to launch a rocket from Earth); having to reach, first of all, the velocity of the 'matter' (or notional points) that make up the 'mass' of the Earth and then having to accelerate the rocket beyond that - as we are constantly 'reset' at the dege of time...?

Sorry for the rambling, and I wish that my language could be more precise - and the beers probably don't help.

#### DoctorBeaver

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##### Gravity and the nature of space and time.
« Reply #1 on: 11/02/2008 12:28:20 »
I'm not sure I follow that. Can you re-post in 1 of your more sober moments?

#### angst

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##### Gravity and the nature of space and time.
« Reply #2 on: 11/02/2008 12:57:42 »
I'm not sure I follow that. Can you re-post in 1 of your more sober moments?

Indeed. I'm a little more sober now, but I'm not sure, still, that I will be able to make sense. I will try though.

Imagine that time can be defined by the speed of light, perhaps as a wavelength. A motion is space might be described as an acceleration against the flow of that wavelength, or as a wave form motion away from the 'edge' of time - but that always returns to that edge (perhaps explaining the integer nature of energy levels wee see within the building blocks of matter...?) Or perhaps we really do move away from each other in time....(but then we would be able to make a movement forward in time....??). You see it is a confusing idea to me, which is why I am trying to share it with others who may be able to help me put some mathematical/physical language to it.

The only way I can think to explain it is to imagine any point in space as as being a notional 'centre' of time. As this notional point makes a movement in space (including wave motion as we see in the building blocks of matter) it also makes an acceleration from time. Imagine that you are in a fast flowing river and you are trying to swim upstream, in order to counteract the flow of the river's water you must accelerate at a particular rate in order to escape it's flow.

Does that help?
« Last Edit: 11/02/2008 13:00:21 by angst »

#### DoctorBeaver

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##### Gravity and the nature of space and time.
« Reply #3 on: 11/02/2008 13:12:53 »

#### angst

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##### Gravity and the nature of space and time.
« Reply #4 on: 11/02/2008 13:22:54 »
Just to add to that, as I have just considered this a little more(especially the river analogy). Perhaps if we envisage the 'flow' of time as emanating from a singularity, and then opening into space, the faster we travel against the flow of time, the more concentrated that flow is.... the greater the acceleration we require to overcome it. Hence mass (greater mass=greater velocity) becomes an obstacle to our movement in time, and therefore space.

Or is it perhaps, that when we talk of velocity in space we are describing acceleration in time. Is 186,000 miles per second, perhaps to be seen as 186,000 miles per second per second within a further dimension(s) of time..?

As I say, I am struggling somewhat, but I feel that Einstein's theories of relativity are telling us something about the relationship between movement in space and in time.
« Last Edit: 11/02/2008 13:31:17 by angst »

#### Soul Surfer

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##### Gravity and the nature of space and time.
« Reply #5 on: 17/02/2008 11:06:04 »
Angst  Are you familiar with basic relativity theory and the Lorenz transformation?

Because you are in a way right, time is used a a fourth dimension and movement through space is also movement through time.  "Relativity" comes from the fact that every point in the universe is the same as any other and it is only by looking at relative behavoiur between other points in the universe one can understand it.

So if you haven't tried it do a bit of study you will probably find that your questions have been answered.
« Last Edit: 17/02/2008 11:08:00 by Soul Surfer »

#### angst

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##### Gravity and the nature of space and time.
« Reply #6 on: 17/02/2008 18:49:53 »
Angst  Are you familiar with basic relativity theory and the Lorenz transformation?

Because you are in a way right, time is used a a fourth dimension and movement through space is also movement through time.  "Relativity" comes from the fact that every point in the universe is the same as any other and it is only by looking at relative behavoiur between other points in the universe one can understand it.

So if you haven't tried it do a bit of study you will probably find that your questions have been answered.

Yes, I am aware of the ideas of basic relativity theory, but I thank you for your advice (I am reading as much as, and understanding as much as, I can both of the theoriy of general relativity and quantum physics). What I am getting at is something a little removed from, but a development from the ideas of, general relativity.

I have decided that, rather than ramble like an idiot on these boards - at the risk of sounding off like some self-delusional 'genius' - I will look to getting my head round some of the mathematics and the language required in order to; a) organise my ideas into a cogent and substantial concept; b) see if mathematically my ideas make sense, and whether they are opposed by experimental evidence; and c) be able to put forward a reasonably substantial and cogent concept forward here for discussion.

Basically my idea, if right, would be a method of connecting the theories of General Relativity with the Satndard Model. Essentially, one will not find the Higgs Boson. The Symmetry Breaking 'God' particle, as it is not a particle at all.

Anyway, hopefully I can come back to you soonish and be in a position to explain better what is in my head - because, frankly, it is driving me nuts.
« Last Edit: 17/02/2008 19:41:46 by angst »

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##### Gravity and the nature of space and time.
« Reply #7 on: 24/02/2008 13:01:33 »
No beer, little smoke. Just thoughts.

Time, time, time. Wonderful time.

Maybe time is a field in space. Its strength is defined by the speed of motion.

Maybe space is filled up with something we don't know yet. That something is electrical charged and very very tiny, like e/10^100, maybe it has no mass too.

Maybe light travel in space is just like sound travel in air. That tiny thing is light's conductor/medium. Since it has electrical charge, so sound/light speed in it is equal to C.

When we travel in space, we against that tiny tiny thing and produce a resistance/force, that force act at every atom in us and our ship (not like air Resistance only act at the surface of a jet). When we speed up, that resistance/force will increase (therefor canceled part of the force in our system in our moving direction. And time relatively slows down). When we keep speeding up till the Resistance force reach infinity strong, we will be pressurized into 0 length. Therefor, motion less and time stops.

Wow, maybe when we travel faster then light, we will back in time and be young again. Then we slow down our ship and grow older. Then we speed up again. Repeat that, we can live forever.

If Einstein was right, then we have no such hope. Let's all hope he was wrong.

« Last Edit: 24/02/2008 13:37:35 by ask »

#### DoctorBeaver

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##### Gravity and the nature of space and time.
« Reply #8 on: 24/02/2008 14:33:29 »
My brain hurts

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##### Gravity and the nature of space and time.
« Reply #9 on: 24/02/2008 15:12:36 »
My brain hurts

Maybe have another beer!

#### angst

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##### Gravity and the nature of space and time.
« Reply #10 on: 28/02/2008 13:34:11 »
Okay, here we go again. Let's try another way. Time is not a dimension, it is a process of dimensional space. We perceive time by means of our interaction with the a fourth spacial dimension (hence Einstein's correct conclusion that what we are really talking about is space-time). This dimension is absolutely necessary for dimensional space to exist, because it negates the need for an outer edge (every point in the universe appears as if it were the centre - and this also explains the relative nature of our existence). This fourth dimension is finite and is waveform in nature, and it is twisted (imagine an infinity symbol, or an eight - as a very basic conceptual tool)), and it is the interaction at the intersection of this crossover that creates matter - forces energy against it's own flow. Any interaction of energy within this 'reverse' flow would be what we perceive as a movement in the three dimensional space as we understand it, and would also be perceived as a movement 'backwards' in time, or rather, against the flow of time.
« Last Edit: 28/02/2008 13:36:31 by angst »

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Gravity and the nature of space and time.
« Reply #10 on: 28/02/2008 13:34:11 »