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Author Topic: Is there a link between vaccination and autism?  (Read 16652 times)

Offline Ruth

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« on: 04/04/2008 10:33:48 »
I think some of you may find this rather interesting!
Ruth.
http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2008/03/julie-gerberding-admits-on-cnn-that.html [nofollow]
« Last Edit: 06/04/2008 10:27:52 by chris »


 

Offline BenV

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Re: Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #1 on: 04/04/2008 11:49:30 »
Thanks for posting the link, but the video is really quite misleading.  She states that in children with the rare mitochondrial dysfunction, immune stress can lead to autism like symptoms.  If the vaccinations lead to immune stress, then this could be a cause, but bacteria/viruses in the environment would lead to immune stress anyway.  In fact, by not having a child vaccinated, they will still be exposed to the same pathogens (and so still likely to develop Autism symptoms) but could also contract serious illnesses like chicken pox.  These illnesses could then easily spread to other non-vaccinated non-autistic children or worse, non-vaccinated pregnant women.

Also, the editing and selective quoting in this video amounts to propaganda.  By selectively quoting out of context (at one point, the text implies that the mitochondrial dysfunction is "not rare"; yet in the context of the conference call it was indicated that it may not be rare in autistic people) the videos creators are misleading and twisting the actual content of the interview.
 

Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #2 on: 04/04/2008 17:34:49 »
there is so much news lately about the recent increase in the rate of autism.  everyone wants to find a cause so they can point blame at someone.

the truth is that the diagnosis criteria of autism was recently changed so more people qualify as autistic, and physicians were instructed to be more careful in watching for it.
 

Offline iko

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Re: Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #3 on: 04/04/2008 21:37:57 »
If you are deeply interested in hypothesizing about possible
environmental causes of autism and related disorders...
you should read and meditate carefully this 'piece':


Why not?

ikoD   [^]
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #4 on: 08/04/2008 10:34:24 »
I reply as someone who has been researching ASD for the past 3 years.

I haven't yet seen any compelling evidence that there is a link, but I'm still open-minded about it. The original research by Dr Wakefield was decidedly dubious and sampled only 12 children. There is also doubt about Dr Wakefield's impartiality due to his business interests.

However, recent research by Prof O'Leary at Trinity College, Dublin, has found something interesting. Prof O'Leary and his team have detected the strain of measles virus used in the MMR jab in tissue samples from the inflamed intestines of 12 children, each of whom developed autism after receiving the injection. Although the finding does not prove that the MRR jab caused autism and bowel disease in the children, it raises questions about the vaccine's role in their condition.

It is definitely something that needs more research with larger sample rates.
 

Offline morepuppies

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #5 on: 08/04/2008 14:59:03 »
Thanks for posting the link, but the video is really quite misleading.

Maker of the video here.  I would like to address your points.

She states that in children with the rare mitochondrial dysfunction, immune stress can lead to autism like symptoms.  If the vaccinations lead to immune stress, then this could be a cause, but bacteria/viruses in the environment would lead to immune stress anyway.

You are right and it does.  There are children who have not been vaccinated and have regressive autism, because environmental toxins trigger the regression and vaccination is not the only source of such insults.  It is just usually the biggest bolus dose of toxins a child gets, so the most marked and obvious source of the problem.

Our kids are toxic sponges and get them from all sources.  When we tested my son, he had mercury from his vaccines, but also lead from the soil in the back yard. 

But the question is, were he not given so many vaccines in combination in such a short time, might his toxic load been light enough that he didn't reach that toxic tipping point that made the multi system crash take place in his little body that took his speech and his eye contact?

These kids do not make enough glutathione to process out vaccine additives and toxins from other sources.  But the medical community is not screening our kids to see who can handle vaccination and who can't.

In fact, by not having a child vaccinated, they will still be exposed to the same pathogens (and so still likely to develop Autism symptoms)


Yes, but they won't be bombarded with pathogens so IF autism develops, it may not be as severe. 

An 8 week old baby, who weighs only about 10 lbs, if they are vaccinated according to the CDC recommended schedule, will get 7 viral antigens at once.  8 if they didn't get the Hep B shot at birth.

That is ridiculous.

In addition to forcing their immune systems to deal with all that so early, they also have to deal with all the vaccine additives, my two favorite being mercury and aluminum (and yes mercury is still in there).  I went to the CDC's web site and made a list of the vaccine ingredients a baby would be getting at their two months shots, just choosing random brands of vaccines:

Aluminum Potassium Sulfate, Ammonium Sulfate, Bovine Extract, Formaldehyde, Formalin, Gelatin, Polysorbate 80, Sodium Phosphate, Fetal Bovine Serum, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Phosphate, Monobasic Monohydrate, Sodium Hydroxide Sucrose, Ammonium Sulfate, Formaldehyde or Formalin, Sucrose, Aluminum Phosphate, Amino Acid, Soy Peptone, Yeast Extract, Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate, Amino Acids, Dextrose, Mineral Salts, Potassium Aluminum Sulfate, Soy Peptone, Yeast Protein, Calf Serum Protein, Monkey Kidney Tissue, Neomycin, 2-Phenoxyethanol, Polymyxin B, Streptomycin, and our good friend Thimerosal. ( newbielink:http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf [nonactive])

but could also contract serious illnesses like chicken pox.
 

Chicken pox is not a serious illness. 

These illnesses could then easily spread to other non-vaccinated non-autistic children or worse, non-vaccinated pregnant women.

Yes it could.  But you don't make medical decisions for children based on what is good for other people.  The patient is the baby in front of you, not the 'greater good'.  If the baby in front of you is at risk for life long brain damage from vaccines, then don't vaccinate him! 

I have said this for years, but my son is not an acceptable loss in the war against viral infections.

Also, the editing and selective quoting in this video amounts to propaganda.

The video is not selectively edited.  The entire interview is there, in order, just with some portions repeated.  Nothing is left out, not even the ending handshake.  It is simply her words, with commentary, all of which is sourced and accurate. 

By selectively quoting out of context (at one point, the text implies that the mitochondrial dysfunction is "not rare"; yet in the context of the conference call it was indicated that it may not be rare in autistic people)


Please read the account of the conference call again.  BOTH points were made.  That the mito dysfunction is not rare in autistic kids (estimated at 20%) AND that the risk of predisposition for that mito dysfunction to occur is not rare in the general population (estimated at up to 2%)

the videos creators are misleading and twisting the actual content of the interview.


If you have any other places where you believe I twisted information, please let me know.  I pride myself on accuracy and hate getting things wrong.  I tried to get as much information in as i could, but was limited to 10 minutes, so if there is something you have a question about, let me know so I can give you additional support for the video.

Ginger Taylor
mail@adventuresinautism.com
« Last Edit: 08/04/2008 15:05:27 by morepuppies »
 

Offline morepuppies

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #6 on: 08/04/2008 15:29:40 »
I reply as someone who has been researching ASD for the past 3 years.

I haven't yet seen any compelling evidence that there is a link, but I'm still open-minded about it.

Dr. Beaver,

We autism mom's always love to come across doctors like you who are looking at this with real curiosity! 

I have begun putting together a list of the research that supports the vaccine/autism link and it can be found at:  newbielink:http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2007/06/no-evidence-of-any-link.html [nonactive]

There is much more, and I have more studies to add.

Most relevant to the Poling case, and what Dr. Poling is trying to bring to the attention of the medical community, is that his daughter's mito dysfunction was likely a product of her first thimerosal containing vaccine.  I didn't have enough room to put this in the video, but if you go to pubmed.com, type in mitochondria and thimerosal you will see that it causes mitochondrial mediated cellular apoptosis.

The next round of vaccines interacted with that mito disorder and you get autism.

There is also something important happening here in terms of pediatricians being taught to pass the buck.

The government recognizes that vaccine induced encephalopathy exists and pays damages for it.  Here is part of the description of what vaccine induced encephalopathy is:

    (1) A significant change in mental status that is not medication related; specifically a confusional state, or a delirium, or a psychosis;
    (2) A significantly decreased level of consciousness, which is independent of a seizure and cannot be attributed to the effects of medication; and
    (3) A seizure associated with loss of consciousness.

(D) A "significantly decreased level of consciousness" is indicated by the presence of at least one of the following clinical signs for at least 24 hours or greater (see  paragraphs (2)(I)(A) and (2)(I)(B) of this section for applicable timeframes):

    (1) Decreased or absent response to environment (responds, if at all, only to loud voice or painful stimuli);
    (2) Decreased or absent eye contact (does not fix gaze upon family members or other individuals); or
    (3) Inconsistent or absent responses to external stimuli (does not recognize familiar people or things).

newbielink:http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/table.htm [nonactive]

Sounds just like autism, don't it?  It is.

That is an exact description of what most of us observed in our children when they regressed.  When I went into my peds office with my son hanging limp in my arms and not responding to external stimuli, with absent eye contact, and dramatic change in mental status and a very marked decreased level of consciousness, and told him it all started after his vaccines, he should have diagnosed him with encephalopathy.  A medical condition, that my medical doctor was charged with diagnosing.

But pediatricians are not taught to look for vaccine injury.  Only autism.  Because no one is responsible for autism.  (It is a mysterious illness.. no one knows the cause... there is no cure... blah, blah, blah)  So instead he sent him to a speech therapist and a psychologist that diagnosed him under a DSM IV code of autism.

He passed the buck because if he had done his diagnostic job correctly, he would have indited himself and the vaccine program.

And my doctor was a good doctor!  He was not a shlub. He was doing what the AAP taught him to do.

In my son, vaccine induced encephalopathy  and 'autism' were the exact same thing, with the same symptoms, but described from the point of view of two different disciplines. 

Doctors have to be taught to PROPERLY diagnose vaccine injury. 

Please take time to read the evidence I have listed and I would be HAPPY to field any questions or point you in the right direction of resources or give any study you are looking at context.

Please keep looking.  The information is coming to the surface.  Last weekend the AAP finally attended an Autism conference with the doctors who are successfully treating children like my son with vaccine induce autism.  And they were impressed.  newbielink:http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2008/04/american-academy-of-pediatrics-shows-up.html [nonactive]

Get a copy of Changing the Course of Autism, by Bryan Jepson, MD if you have not already read it.  It is the first good primer on all that is going on with our kids

Ginger Taylor, M.S.
Whose son is recovering from autism
« Last Edit: 08/04/2008 15:31:22 by morepuppies »
 

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #7 on: 08/04/2008 19:00:25 »
Hang on...
"You are right and it does.  There are children who have not been vaccinated and have regressive autism, because environmental toxins trigger the regression and vaccination is not the only source of such insults.  It is just usually the biggest bolus dose of toxins a child gets, so the most marked and obvious source of the problem. "

I can't see how a vaccination, which doesn't generally produce any illness is a bigger dose of toxins than, say, catching a stomach bug, that does produce illness.
That's an emotive claim made without evidence adn seems to me to be at odds with the facts.

This simple truth is that extensive research has found no correletion between autism and vaccination. That's either because the link is extremely weak or because there is no link.

What is clear is that unvaccinated children are more likely to get these ilnesses, some of which can definitley cause brain damage.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #8 on: 08/04/2008 19:41:44 »
morepuppies - I'm a psychologist, not a medical doctor.

It is a prerequisite of psychologists that our disposition tends towards the abnormal, irrational and downright absurd. I stretch such disposition to the limit. However, it does mean that I am willing not to discard unconventional theories if they are supported by evidence that gives me cause to believe there may be an iota of fact therein.

The link between MMR and autism is tenuous to say the least (ASDs were around long before MMR), but Professor O'Leary's results do rattle small chains in the murkiest recesses of my little beaver brain; albeit for no reason other than his being highly respected and without the vested interests of Dr Wakefield. I do, though, add a large caveat as his sample, as with that of Dr Wakefield, was extremely small (12 people). Were the same results produced in a much larger sample (at least 100) then I would give the theory more credence.
 

Offline Make it Lady

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #9 on: 08/04/2008 20:21:33 »
I have to agree with DocB. The trial samples are far too low. I would like to see more research but the problem arises, when someone like Wakefield is so publicly discredited others are very wary of working on the topic. Getting big sample groups requires a lot of funding and it is hard to get funding for a controversial subject. This is all sad but unfortunately true. 
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #10 on: 08/04/2008 20:34:51 »
Sharon (MakeItLady) raises a good point about funding. The UK government was 1 of Dr Wakefield's harshest and vociferous critics, so providing funding that could prove him correct is a non-starter.

That is 1 reason I'm so interested in Prof O'Leary's research. I don't think the Irish were so critical of the ASD/MMR link and so funding may indeed be made available to him.

There is also reasearch being conducted in China that I'm keeping an eye on.

However, I must add the following...

In 2004, 10 of the 13 authors of Dr Wakefield's 1998 study retracted the study's interpretation. The authors stated that the data were not able to establish a causal link between MMR vaccine and autism.

Other larger studies have found no relationship between MMR vaccine and autism. For example, researchers in the UK studied the records of 498 children with autism born between 1979 and 1998. They found:=

1) the percentage of children with autism who received MMR vaccine was the same as the percentage of unaffected children in the region who received MMR vaccine.

2) there was no difference in the age of diagnosis of autism in vaccinated and unvaccinated children.

3) the onset of "regressive" symptoms of autism did not occur within 2, 4, or 6 months of receiving the MMR vaccine.

Many experts, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, agree that MMR vaccine is not responsible for recent increases in the number of children with autism. In 2004, a report by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) concluded that there is no association between autism and MMR vaccine, or vaccines that contain thimerosal as a preservative.

It is because of evidence such as this that I'm inclined to think there is no connection; but I am willing to change my mind if definite reason for doubt is forthcoming.
« Last Edit: 08/04/2008 20:47:27 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline morepuppies

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #11 on: 09/04/2008 02:20:07 »
The link between MMR and autism is tenuous to say the least (ASDs were around long before MMR), but Professor O'Leary's results do rattle small chains in the murkiest recesses of my little beaver brain; albeit for no reason other than his being highly respected and without the vested interests of Dr Wakefield. I do, though, add a large caveat as his sample, as with that of Dr Wakefield, was extremely small (12 people). Were the same results produced in a much larger sample (at least 100) then I would give the theory more credence.

My son did not get the MMR as he regressed before then and we stopped vaccinating.  So I have not followed the MMR story as closely as other facets of the vaccine/autism connection, but I understand there have been several other studies that have supported Wakefield's original claim.  I will go check that out and see what i can find for you and post them here.
 

Offline morepuppies

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #12 on: 09/04/2008 03:20:56 »
I can't see how a vaccination, which doesn't generally produce any illness is a bigger dose of toxins than, say, catching a stomach bug, that does produce illness.

Your word "generally" is the key here.  Generally, peanuts don't kill children, but there is a vulnerable subset of the population whose unique biological picture makes them unable to tolerate them.  The same is true with almost anything.  The same is certainly true with vaccines.

And when we discuss catching the bug v. dealing with the vaccine, keep in mind, if one gets a bug, they are only fighting the bug.

When one gets vaccinated, they are fighting 7 or 8 bugs and toxic additives at the same time.

Repeating from above, an 8 week old, 10 lb baby is given this burden to process at his checkup:

Viruses:  Hepatitis B, Rotavirus, Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, Haemophilus influenzae type b, Pneumococcal, and Polio

Toxins:  Aluminum Potassium Sulfate, Ammonium Sulfate, Bovine Extract, Formaldehyde, Formalin, Gelatin, Polysorbate 80, Sodium Phosphate, Fetal Bovine Serum, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Phosphate, Monobasic Monohydrate, Sodium Hydroxide Sucrose, Ammonium Sulfate, Formaldehyde or Formalin, Sucrose, Aluminum Phosphate, Amino Acid, Soy Peptone, Yeast Extract, Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate, Amino Acids, Dextrose, Mineral Salts, Potassium Aluminum Sulfate, Soy Peptone, Yeast Protein, Calf Serum Protein, Monkey Kidney Tissue, Neomycin, 2-Phenoxyethanol, Polymyxin B, Streptomycin, and our good friend Thimerosal. ( newbielink:http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf [nonactive])

Keep in mind that none of these vaccines are ever safety tested in combination.

Our autistic children have abnormal immune systems and generally fall into one of two categories, either they get sick all the time, with every bug that comes along, and have multiple ear infections, and do not produce titers for the diseases for which they are vaccinated; or they NEVER get sick and have other autoimmune symptom like eczema.

My son falls into the later half.  The toxins in his vaccines, specifically the adjuvants mercury and aluminum, he was not able to clear from his body (depleted glutahione levels) and so his immune response did not 'calm down' as most children's do after vaccination, and it went on to attack his tissues creating inflammation through out his body.  Anti inflammatories have helped his cognition and clarity a great deal.

The first category of kids are usually the ones with the viral problems.  Like this one.  There are some kids who respond amazingly to antivirals.  He recovered from Autism with the Gluten Free/Casein Free Diet, antifungals and antivirals: 

Autism is not one physical disorder, but a multi-system failure.  It varies from child to child. Those who are successfully treating "autism" are encouraging people not to think of it as "autism" but "Autisms".  This is one reason why research has gone so slowly and so poorly.  Children are pooled by a behavioral diagnosis and then put into a study, with out checking to see if they have the same physical symptoms that are associated with 'autism'.  That is like doing a study of 'mental retardation' where half you sample has downs syndrome and the other half had car accidents in law school.

That's an emotive claim made without evidence and seems to me to be at odds with the facts.

Then let's get to some facts, shall we!

This simple truth is that extensive research has found no correlation between autism and vaccination. That's either because the link is extremely weak or because there is no link.

If you spend time really digging through that 'research' you will find that they often fall under the category of 'if you don't want to find something (a correlation) look what it's not'.  This is a critique I wrote of the two biggest studies that have been used to say that there is no correlation.  They are HORRIBLE and parents have been asking for them to be retracted for years, but if you ask a pediatrician what studies support the 'no link' hypothesis, they will quote these to you:  newbielink:http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2005/08/heres-why-disdain.html [nonactive]

And i will put this link up again... Here are more than 30 studies that support the link, that the medical community is just ignoring:  newbielink:http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2007/06/no-evidence-of-any-link.html [nonactive]

What is clear is that unvaccinated children are more likely to get these illnesses, some of which can definitely cause brain damage.

But for some children, like my son, they are at far greater damage from the vaccine than they are getting the actual illness.  Last winter I got Pertussis.  Quite a miserable 6 weeks for me.  One day he started coughing and I assumed it was his turn and kept him home from school.  By the after noon his cough was gone and that was the end of that.  His immune system is the bully that is attacking his brain.  Mere viruses don't stand a chance in his body.

You are a chemist, no?  I would like to appeal to you as a chemist.

I am sure you are familiar with the effects of mercury and aluminum on humans.  Can you take a look at the CDC's toxicology site and look at the stated effects of mercury on children and tell me that they are not the exact same symptoms of autism?

"How does mercury affect children?

Very young children are more sensitive to mercury than adults. Mercury in the mother's body passes to the fetus and may accumulate there. It can also can pass to a nursing infant through breast milk. However, the benefits of breast feeding may be greater than the possible adverse effects of mercury in breast milk.

Mercury's harmful effects that may be passed from the mother to the fetus include brain damage, mental retardation, incoordination, blindness, seizures, and inability to speak. Children poisoned by mercury may develop problems of their nervous and digestive systems, and kidney damage."
newbielink:http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts46.html#bookmark07 [nonactive]

You will find all of those in our autistic children.

And read the Shaw study.  After seeing the cell death in the brains of mice injected with aluminum hydroxide from vaccines, everyone in his lab was so freaked out they didn't want to vaccinate any more.
newbielink:http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2008/03/its-not-just-mercury-aluminum-hydroxide.html [nonactive]
 

Offline morepuppies

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #13 on: 09/04/2008 03:54:46 »
Sharon (MakeItLady) raises a good point about funding. The UK government was 1 of Dr Wakefield's harshest and vociferous critics, so providing funding that could prove him correct is a non-starter.

We have the same problem in the US with trying to get a simple vaccinated v. non-vaccinated study to see if the rate of Autism/ASD/Asthema/Type 1 Diabetes is higher in vaccinated kids.

The FDA asked the CDC to do one in 1982 and we are still waiting.  Everyone already knows the rates are going to be higher for kids who are vaccinated (a parent group finally did their own survey last year of over 9,000 boys in California and Oregon and found that vaccinated boys had a 155% greater chance of having a neurological disorder like ADHD or autism than unvaccinated boys. newbielink:http://generationrescue.com/survey.html [nonactive]) so if they actually do the study, they will indict themselves in a huge scandal.

There is also research being conducted in China that I'm keeping an eye on.

Can you point me toward that?  I have not heard of that one.

The authors stated that the data were not able to establish a causal link between MMR vaccine and autism.

Was that actually the case? or did they just want to retain their careers?  The three that didn't retract have been brutalized.

Other larger studies have found no relationship between MMR vaccine and autism. For example, researchers in the UK studied the records of 498 children with autism born between 1979 and 1998. They found:=

1) the percentage of children with autism who received MMR vaccine was the same as the percentage of unaffected children in the region who received MMR vaccine.

2) there was no difference in the age of diagnosis of autism in vaccinated and unvaccinated children.

3) the onset of "regressive" symptoms of autism did not occur within 2, 4, or 6 months of receiving the MMR vaccine.

Can you send me the citation?

Many experts, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, agree that MMR vaccine is not responsible for recent increases in the number of children with autism.

AAP has behaved terribly in this.  Again, expecting them to say, "oh... by the way... we gave millions of children brain damage by over vaccinating them when we could have just as easily spread out the vaccines over 5 years instead of cramming 36 vaccines into a baby in 18 months"... well that is expecting a bit much of them at this point.

In 2004, a report by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) concluded that there is no association between autism and MMR vaccine, or vaccines that contain thimerosal as a preservative.

And if you have read the accounts of the IOM decision, that we have transcripts of one of their first meetings in which they outright say that they are going to give the CDC the decision that they want, and that they will never say it is the vaccines and they will not say 'pull the vaccines', before any of the investigation started, you might be hesitant of quoting them.  Their conclusions contradict themselves and even though the research was a split decision at the time (the epidemiology going toward non association and the in vitro and in vivo going toward an association) they recommended that the line of questioning into the autism/vaccine question should not longer be pursued!  When someone jumps in front of a closet and shouts, 'Don't look in here', there is probably something in there.

Anyway, there is an entire fat book called Evidence of Harm that goes over all the shenanigans in the IOM decision, as well as the Verstraeten Study that I mentioned above.  The CDC promised to respond to the charges in the book in 2005 and they have yet to answer them.

Look... no one wants there to be a connection because seriously... how horrible is that!  Vaccines have wiped out epidemics, that is a very good thing.  But they have gone to far.  Too many, to soon, too close together, with too many toxic ingredients, given in combinations that are not safety tested, to kids who are not screened to see if they can handle them.

It is because of evidence such as this that I'm inclined to think there is no connection; but I am willing to change my mind if definite reason for doubt is forthcoming.

Well I have certainly dumped a ton of reading material on you.  Take a look and see if you find any reason for doubt.  Start with my criticism of the two studies that the IOM used to close the case on vaccines and autism in 2004:  newbielink:http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2005/08/heres-why-disdain.html [nonactive]
 

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #14 on: 09/04/2008 21:18:04 »
Wait a minute?
Do bugs naturally have the kindhearted consideration to attack one at a time? Do they form an orderly queue?
A young child is constantly battling many different bacteria etc. that they have never seen before. They cope admirably well. A hadfull more (3 in the case of mmr) isn't any big deal.
It was said that a case study involving just 12 children didn't ammount to a lot but a larger sacale trial wit about 100 would be better
It was also said that this would be impossible to fund...blah blah British govt. Blah Blah..
Here's the study.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/325/7361/419

It involved 96 children diagnosed as having autism and compared to 449 controls.
No effect was found.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #15 on: 09/04/2008 21:23:02 »


There is also research being conducted in China that I'm keeping an eye on.

Can you point me toward that?  I have not heard of that one.


It's not generally available as the research is still ongoing. I'll have a look for it, but I don't think it's on the web anywhere yet.

I'll try to find a citation for the other data but I got them from a precis.

I will certainly try to read through the links you posted. It's possible I've already read some of the articles, but I could probably do with taking a 2nd look anyway. Sometimes I pick up on issues I missed 1st time around. Thanks.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #16 on: 09/04/2008 21:39:51 »
BC - Look at the objectives on that piece of research compared to what I was referring to...

"To assess whether children with autism are more likely to have a history of gastrointestinal disorders than children without autism."

The important words are "a history of gastrointestinal disorders".

Professor O'Leary's research was addressing the issue of whether a certain virus was present in the gut. As you will be aware, there is a lot of difference between a virus being present and that virus manifesting as an illness. Plus, not all parents will take their child to a GP for what may be regarded as a mere tummy upset.

That is why I prefer reading the research papers rather than a simple precis in a magazine or on a website. The way the results are presented, and the wording used, can convey the impression that they are saying something other than that which they are really saying. I like to look at the methodology and results and decide for myself.

As for funding, the Black, Kaye, Jick research was on fairly safe ground insofar as what results they were expecting to find and, as those results would substantiate the official government line, funding would not have been too much of an issue. We all know that any research that is expected to add weight to a government's standpoint goes straight to the top of the funding list. If the research is looking at an aspect that could contradict that standpoint, it goes to the bottom.

Something else to bear in mind as far as the Black, Kaye, Jick research is concerned is the issue of communication with sufferers of ASD. They are, commonly, uncommunicative and "live in their own little world". If they feel unwell, it is not always apparent; or they may just throw an extra tantrum or two. It is very difficult to establish the cause of distress in autistic children. That is another reason why they may not have "a history of gastro-intestinal disorders".
« Last Edit: 09/04/2008 21:48:56 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline iko

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #17 on: 09/04/2008 21:45:51 »
This recent negative study with >1000children may serve us well:

Early thimerosal exposure and neuropsychological outcomes at 7 to 10 years.


Thompson WW, Price C, Goodson B, Shay DK, Benson P, Hinrichsen VL, Lewis E, Eriksen E, Ray P, Marcy SM, Dunn J, Jackson LA, Lieu TA, Black S, Stewart G, Weintraub ES, Davis RL, DeStefano F; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team.
National Center for Immunizations and Respiratory Diseases, Influenza Division, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA 30333, USA. wct2@cdc.gov

BACKGROUND: It has been hypothesized that early exposure to thimerosal, a mercury-containing preservative used in vaccines and immune globulin preparations, is associated with neuropsychological deficits in children.
METHODS: We enrolled 1047 children between the ages of 7 and 10 years and administered standardized tests assessing 42 neuropsychological outcomes. (We did not assess autism-spectrum disorders.) Exposure to mercury from thimerosal was determined from computerized immunization records, medical records, personal immunization records, and parent interviews. Information on potential confounding factors was obtained from the interviews and medical charts. We assessed the association between current neuropsychological performance and exposure to mercury during the prenatal period, the neonatal period (birth to 28 days), and the first 7 months of life.
RESULTS: Among the 42 neuropsychological outcomes, we detected only a few significant associations with exposure to mercury from thimerosal. The detected associations were small and almost equally divided between positive and negative effects. Higher prenatal mercury exposure was associated with better performance on one measure of language and poorer performance on one measure of attention and executive functioning. Increasing levels of mercury exposure from birth to 7 months were associated with better performance on one measure of fine motor coordination and on one measure of attention and executive functioning. Increasing mercury exposure from birth to 28 days was associated with poorer performance on one measure of speech articulation and better performance on one measure of fine motor coordination.
CONCLUSIONS: Our study does not support a causal association between early exposure to mercury from thimerosal-containing vaccines and immune globulins and deficits in neuropsychological functioning at the age of 7 to 10 years.
Copyright 2007 Massachusetts Medical Society.

N Engl J Med. 2007 Sep 27;357(13):1281-92.


« Last Edit: 09/04/2008 22:03:38 by iko »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #18 on: 09/04/2008 21:50:36 »
Enrico - please read my reply to BoredChemist's post. I would say the same about the research results you posted; that being that it does not address the issue I was referring to.
 

Offline morepuppies

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #19 on: 09/04/2008 23:08:09 »
This recent negative study with >1000children may serve us well:

It does not serve us well.  This is one of the crap studies that I am talking about.

There were no autistic children included in this study.  They dropped low birth weight babies.  There was a 70% drop out rate.  The conclusions were not supported by the data.  It got rid of children with problems, so it would find no children had problems from thimerosal.

The publishers said that autism was not covered in this study, but it didn't stop news out lets from printing headlines like, "New Study Results: Vaccines Not Tied to Autism"

Almost all of the 18 authors had ties to vaccine manufacturers.

This is an 8 point break down of the major problems with the study:

newbielink:http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2007/09/heads-up-more-cdc-cyabs-commin-our-way.html [nonactive]
« Last Edit: 09/04/2008 23:14:00 by morepuppies »
 

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« Reply #20 on: 09/04/2008 23:57:13 »
morepuppies - thank you for that link. It's an interesting blog. I'll read more when I have the time.

That particular entry nicely highlights exactly the sort of dubious methodologies and published conclusions I was talking about.
 

Online Bored chemist

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« Reply #21 on: 10/04/2008 19:59:33 »
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how the bacteria make appointments to attack children.
If they don't then, as I said, the children are always fighting off stacks of bugs. A few more or less couldn't really matter.
There's no clear difference between a vaccination and any other infection (apart from the preservatives in the vaccine perhaps) so how come the vacciner is uniquely able to produce this effect?

Incidentally the thiomersal that sometimes gets the blame for autism gets lumped in with the methylmercury compounds that caused problems in places like this
http://www.einap.org/envdis/Minamata.html
Which is interesting.
Methyl mercury compounds are particularly toxic because they get bonded to a cysteine molecule in the body and the product is simmilar enough to another natural amino acid (methionine) that it is readily taken up by cells.
This doesn't happen with ethylmercury compounds.
Thiomersal is an ethylmrecury compound so it's a good deal less toxic than methylmercury.

Various surveys (such as the one iko cited) have failed to find any connection between incidence of autism and thiomersal.

So, I'm still looking for any real evidence of a plausible mechanism and the stats show there's no observable correlation.

 

Offline morepuppies

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« Reply #22 on: 11/04/2008 05:16:37 »
Thiomersal is an ethylmrecury compound so it's a good deal less toxic than methylmercury.

The best comment I have heard on this statement was from a chemist that said something to the effect of:'Ethylmercury is less dangerous than methylmercury, just like 2 bullets to the head is less dangerous than 6 bullets to the head.'

All mercury is neurotoxic.

Take a look at the Burbacher study.  Two sets of primates, one was given ingested methyl and the other injected ethyl.  The injected ethyl crossed the blood brain barrier into the brain less easily, as expected (bigger molecule), but once in oxidized at a much higher rate and became trapped there more readily than than methyl.

newbielink:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16079072?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum [nonactive]
« Last Edit: 11/04/2008 05:22:28 by morepuppies »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #23 on: 11/04/2008 08:33:10 »
This issue is as political as it is scientific. Reputations are at stake - politicians & scientists. It's almost impossible for the average person in the street to know which research is impartial and which is aimed at acheiving a particular result (if you look hard enough for something, you'll probably find it).

I think we've all probably seen research whose objectives and methodology almost inevitably led to a foregone conclusion. Samples can be weighted in subtle ways to make a particular outcome more likely. In addition, results can be tweaked; different statistical techniques will produce different results. I have seen some very dubious research purporting to support the official line that cannabis can lead to psychosis that has been reeled out by the government and presented as definitive proof. Some of it, if any of my students had produced it, I would have thrown it back at them and told them to do it properly.

The general public falls into 2 main categories - those who accept the official line, and the conspiracy theorists (I'm talking about those who have an interest in whatever subject it is, and I include among conspiracy theorists those who believe the government never tells the truth about anything event though they have no firm beliefs of their own). The official line will almost invariably have the better funding, the better publicity machine, etc. Dissenters are lumped together with the Roswell, Diana, cold fusion, and Al Qaeda/911 conpiracy theorists.

In the case of MMR and autism, both sides point to research that supports their own belief and poo-poos that which doesn't. It happens in all fields of research. For instance, I don't think I've ever seen a piece of psychology research that someone somewhere hasn't picked holes in - and I include my own.

I approach the autism/MMR debate with an open mind. So far I'm more convinced by the evidence against there being a link. It seems to me that the evidence in favour of such a link, in the authors' own words, "suggests there may be a link". I have still seen no definite proof that there is; but, as the adage goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. However, it is quite possible that there is a subset of the population who are affected in such a way by MMR. It is also possible that there are multiple causes or interactions of causes (e.g. babies born underweight, exposure to MMR, a certain type of dried milk and something in the environment all acting together). The same symptoms don't necessarily have to have the same cause.

For what it's worth, my own belief is that in the vast majority of cases the cause of ASDs is genetic.
« Last Edit: 11/04/2008 08:46:53 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline morepuppies

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« Reply #24 on: 11/04/2008 14:18:05 »
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how the bacteria make appointments to attack children.
If they don't then, as I said, the children are always fighting off stacks of bugs. A few more or less couldn't really matter.
There's no clear difference between a vaccination and any other infection (apart from the preservatives in the vaccine perhaps) so how come the vaccine is uniquely able to produce this effect?

If you had read what I have written above, vaccine does not produce this effect UNIQUELY.  It also happens naturally.  For example many of our autistic children have chronic strep infections that they cannot get rid of, and there is no strep included in vaccines.

You say 'children are always fighting off some bugs'... well not all children do it successfully.  So why add to the load for those kids?  Because 'a few more or less' REALLY matters to them.  It is the difference between keeping their head above water and setting off a multi system crash in their little bodies.

Again... our kids do not have typically functioning immune systems, so your protestations that most kids can ___________ does not apply.  My son is not most kids.

"apart from the preservatives in the vaccine perhaps"... and there is no difference between Lincoln alive or dead apart from the bullet in his head perhaps!

Here is the list of additives again that an 8 week old baby gets in his vaccines (depending on the brands of vaccines used):

Aluminum Potassium Sulfate, Ammonium Sulfate, Bovine Extract, Formaldehyde, Formalin, Gelatin, Polysorbate 80, Sodium Phosphate, Fetal Bovine Serum, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Phosphate, Monobasic Monohydrate, Sodium Hydroxide Sucrose, Ammonium Sulfate, Formaldehyde or Formalin, Sucrose, Aluminum Phosphate, Amino Acid, Soy Peptone, Yeast Extract, Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate, Amino Acids, Dextrose, Mineral Salts, Potassium Aluminum Sulfate, Soy Peptone, Yeast Protein, Calf Serum Protein, Monkey Kidney Tissue, Neomycin, 2-Phenoxyethanol, Polymyxin B, Streptomycin, and our good friend Thimerosal. ( newbielink:http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf [nonactive])

Is it your position that ALL little babies can handle these ingredients just fine?  And that there is no way they could make it harder for their little immune systems to process 7 viral antigens?

You are a chemist, so let me ask you...

Sodium Hydroxide Sucrose, is that Lye?

Because I know that Sodium Hydroxide is lye (drain cleaner), and it is in the Vitamin K shot given at birth.  Is Sodium Hydroxide Sucrose the same thing?

« Last Edit: 11/04/2008 17:53:07 by morepuppies »
 

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