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Author Topic: Is there a link between vaccination and autism?  (Read 16671 times)

Offline Bizzy

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #25 on: 13/04/2008 23:52:04 »
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how the bacteria make appointments to attack children.
If they don't then, as I said, the children are always fighting off stacks of bugs. A few more or less couldn't really matter.
There's no clear difference between a vaccination and any other infection (apart from the preservatives in the vaccine perhaps) so how come the vacciner is uniquely able to produce this effect?

Bacteria dont make appointments to attack children. The bacteria that attack children are usually destroyed by local immunilogical reactions or gastric acids. Vaccines are applied at concentrations so as to induce a systemic immunilogical response, which is quite different from a local immunilogical response. Systemic immunilogical responses are capable of creating disease and killing people.

Incidentally the thiomersal that sometimes gets the blame for autism gets lumped in with the methylmercury compounds that caused problems in places like this
http://www.einap.org/envdis/Minamata.html
Which is interesting.
Methyl mercury compounds are particularly toxic because they get bonded to a cysteine molecule in the body and the product is simmilar enough to another natural amino acid (methionine) that it is readily taken up by cells.
This doesn't happen with ethylmercury compounds.
Thiomersal is an ethylmrecury compound so it's a good deal less toxic than methylmercury.

Various surveys (such as the one iko cited) have failed to find any connection between incidence of autism and thiomersal.

Some mercury will be absorbed into cells from either methymercury or ethylmercury. The question arises at what level is mercury safe for abosorption. The true answer to this question is probably not known. But we do know that mercury is highly toxic.

So, I'm still looking for any real evidence of a plausible mechanism and the stats show there's no observable correlation.

In nature it is unlikely that a child would get infected with three pathogens within the same second that all require a fullscale systemic immune response. Its not natural and maybe the foundation for autism in some children. A correlation that is currently not statistically observable might still exist. More research with larger groups might be needed.
« Last Edit: 14/04/2008 04:04:28 by Bizzy »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #26 on: 14/04/2008 21:02:52 »
"A correlation that is currently not statistically observable might still exist." or it might not.
"More research with larger groups might be needed."
Some of these studies look at huge numbers of children- how big a study do you need?
Already, the studies can rule out any relation that has a bigger effect (ie afects more children) than measles.
Incidentally ethylmercury is relatively rapidly excreted so it's hard to see it being responsible; in particular this undermines the "mulitple assault" hypothesis I have sometimes seen.
 

Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #27 on: 14/04/2008 23:21:08 »


Aluminum Potassium Sulfate, Ammonium Sulfate, Bovine Extract, Formaldehyde, Formalin, Gelatin, Polysorbate 80, Sodium Phosphate, Fetal Bovine Serum, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Phosphate, Monobasic Monohydrate, Sodium Hydroxide Sucrose, Ammonium Sulfate, Formaldehyde or Formalin, Sucrose, Aluminum Phosphate, Amino Acid, Soy Peptone, Yeast Extract, Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate, Amino Acids, Dextrose, Mineral Salts, Potassium Aluminum Sulfate, Soy Peptone, Yeast Protein, Calf Serum Protein, Monkey Kidney Tissue, Neomycin, 2-Phenoxyethanol, Polymyxin B, Streptomycin, and our good friend Thimerosal. (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf)


You've posted this list like 4 times in this thread.  everytime i glance at it, a few more compunds jump out at me as being absolutely harmless in reasonable doses.  Lots of these chemicals are commonly found in our food.  Others (amino acids) ARE our food.


Again... our kids do not have typically functioning immune systems, so your protestations that most kids can ___________ does not apply.  My son is not most kids.


This will sound cruel, and is not what you want to hear, but public policy health decisions CAN'T be based on the individual.  they HAVE to be based on the greater good of the general public.  There is a chance that in rare cases (such as children with certain mitochondrial disorders) the level of mercury found in some cases is too much for their systems to handle.  But even IF this is true, the small danger that it poses to the general public does NOT make it a prudent decision to forgo vaccination regiments that keep the general public healthy.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #28 on: 15/04/2008 09:45:48 »
I agree with Mayo.

Lots of people have allergies to nuts or diary produce, but these are not banned. Then again, I have to ask - where do you draw the line? How many people have to be affected before action is taken? 0.1% of the population would not indicate a serious risk. But 5%? 10%? How high a proportion can be allowed?
 

Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #29 on: 15/04/2008 17:49:47 »
well, that's what people have fancy degrees in public health, public policy and epidemiology for.  to do their best to weigh the risks for all people involved and figure out/make the hard decisions regarding how to best sevrve the greater population.

even further than simply the decision to ban a substance (such as nuts) or a practice (such as vaccination) there are decisions such as testing.  In the case at hand here.  there are probably reasonably accurate tests to determine the conditions that make children prone top an adverse reaction to a certain vaccination.  But say the test costs $2000, or even $300, and it is known that the condition is only present in 0.05% of the population.  At what point is the COST worth the benefit? 

Public policy is a cruel feild because it means making decisions that sacrifice individuals for the greater good of the population.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #30 on: 15/04/2008 18:43:13 »
A quick look at that list shows it's full of duplicates eg formalin and formaldehyde (both mentioned twice), alum given as both "Aluminum Potassium Sulfate" and "Potassium Aluminum Sulfate" and so on.
That sort of thing leads me to believe that it was drawn up by someone totally ignorant of the subject or that it is deliberately inflated as a scaremongering tactic.

Incidentally, the assertion that vaccines produce a particularly strong immune response doesn't seem right to me. The disease clearly produces a much stronger response.
 

Offline Bizzy

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #31 on: 16/04/2008 13:53:49 »
Incidentally, the assertion that vaccines produce a particularly strong immune response doesn't seem right to me. The disease clearly produces a much stronger response.

Vaccines are designed to produce a strong immune response. An immune response that sometimes lasts decades. Infections can be nipped early by the immune system without any lasting antibody response.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #32 on: 16/04/2008 18:34:25 »
The immune systems purpose is to produce a sufficiently strong reaction to an infection to give substantial immunity for a long time, perhaps for life. If it didn't do this then vaccinations wouldn't work.
Since the illnesses that we are talking about are quite debillitating  (even more so in adults) but the reaction to the jabs is generally a matter of "feeling a bit knackered" for a while I still think the illness does a better job of producing a reaction. In the limit, the disease is much more commonly fatal than the vaccination. That's evidence of a stronger reaction.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #33 on: 16/04/2008 22:10:42 »
I got a mild dose of Cholera from a jab. It was exceedingly unpleasant.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #34 on: 17/04/2008 19:13:23 »
Sorry to hear that, but I'm sure that you are better off getting a mild dose from a jab than a full blown infection.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #35 on: 17/04/2008 23:18:24 »
Sorry to hear that, but I'm sure that you are better off getting a mild dose from a jab than a full blown infection.

That's an understatement. I contracted an anonymous virusy-type thingy in Africa that made me very ill for a couple of weeks (I lost 10Kg in those 2 weeks) and, from what I can gather, Cholera is a lot worse.
« Last Edit: 17/04/2008 23:23:19 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #36 on: 18/04/2008 16:52:13 »
I got a mild dose of Cholera from a jab. It was exceedingly unpleasant.

how did this happen?  was it an infection that you contracted while recieving the vaccination?

what sort of vaccination were you getting?
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #37 on: 18/04/2008 17:46:20 »
I got a mild dose of Cholera from a jab. It was exceedingly unpleasant.

how did this happen?  was it an infection that you contracted while recieving the vaccination?

what sort of vaccination were you getting?

I had to have vaccinations before travelling to a 3rd WOrld country. I had to go at short notice and had both Cholera jabs close together. After the 2nd I became ill and the diagnosis was that it was the result of the vaccine.
 

Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #38 on: 18/04/2008 19:39:38 »
I find this odd.  the vaccinne for chollera uses DEAD chollera bacteria.  there is no way that you could get a chollera infection from the vaccine.  your immune system should actually get "geared UP" in response to the vaccination, so any infection you get subsequent to the shot, if likely one that you would have gotten anyway, unless by some chance you were give the shot using a dirty needle or the site wasn't properly cleaned and you happened to get an infection introduced by the physical puncture of your skin.

side effects for the cholera vaccine are listed as: fever, listlessness, headache, and/or generalized aches and pains....  I'm assuming that all of these stem from an up regulation of the TNF-alpha pathway and some of your other genetic pathways that are involved in regulating your immune response.  Is it possible that you were just experiencing these symptoms, and not actually infected with anything?
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #39 on: 18/04/2008 21:49:18 »
Yeah, that's basically what I had; but it felt a lot worse than that list would suggest - plus shaking & delirium. Maybe I misunderstood what the doctor said. I was feeling decidedly unwell at the time so that's quite possible.
 

Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #40 on: 18/04/2008 22:27:18 »
yeah, my guess would be that you didn't suffer any sort of infection, but just had a very intense immune response to the vaccine.  Probably due to having both doses in short order.
 

Offline Bizzy

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #41 on: 25/04/2008 01:57:54 »
Any correlation between vaccines and autism might be difficult to establish because any risk might match other baseline variables. This means population statistic studies might be useless. Scientific lab studies searching for a bio-chemical link might be required to show any potential risk.
The government appears to have looked at this from a simple statistics perspective. The risk of disease from not having MMR is greater than with having it. So it is better to have the jab. Since the danger of MMR has not been established it is difficult to make the case for seperate jabs. The doctors dont want to do the extra work anyway.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #42 on: 26/11/2008 01:39:14 »
While doing further research into ASD I came across an interesting paper. Here is a précis:-

Many children with autism have elevated blood levels of serotonin – a chemical with strong links to mood and anxiety. But what relevance this “hyperserotonemia” has for autism has remained a mystery.

New research by Vanderbilt University Medical Center investigators provides a physical basis for this phenomenon, which may have profound implications for the origin of some autism-associated deficits.

Serotonin has long been suspected to play a role in autism since elevated blood serotonin and genetic variations in the SERT have been linked to autism.


I am not at liberty to copy the original paper or post a link to it as it is on a limited access website but here is a link to an article on it

 

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Is there a link between vaccination and autism?
« Reply #42 on: 26/11/2008 01:39:14 »

 

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