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paul.fr

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What the Nazi's did for us!
« on: 23/04/2008 14:13:23 »
I think we all know that they were not to concerned with ethical issues, but have any of their experiments made the world and our lives better?


 

Offline neilep

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« Reply #1 on: 23/04/2008 14:30:56 »
 Didn't they gave us 'Herbie 'the 'Peoples Car ' ?








 

Offline science_guy

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« Reply #2 on: 23/04/2008 15:52:22 »
?
 

another_someone

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« Reply #3 on: 23/04/2008 16:20:24 »
Many would argue that the V2 was the forerunner for the American space projects.

In a broader context, the fact that they chased many of their Jewish intelligentsia out of the country (including Einstein) may well have benefited the rest of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation#Modern_ethical_issues
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The modern body of medical knowledge about how the human body reacts to freezing to the point of death is based almost exclusively on these Nazi experiments. This, together with the recent use of data from Nazi research into the effects of phosgene gas, has proved controversial and presents an ethical dilemma for modern physicians who do not agree with the methods used to obtain this data. Similarly, controversy has arisen from the use of results of biological warfare testing done by the Imperial Japanese Army's Unit 731. However, the results from Unit 731 were kept classified by the United States and the majority of doctors involved were given pardons.

Ofcourse, there is a large body of international law that was not a direct product of the NAZI regime, but an indirect product, in having been brought about by a reaction to the regime.
 

Offline that mad man

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« Reply #4 on: 23/04/2008 16:38:32 »
I think they were responsible for inventing liquid rocket power and the first operational jet engine. Heisenberg I believe also sketched out the first plans for a Nuclear pile.

The electron microscope and tape recording was also invented during the Nazi era.

I'm sure there are plenty more as war seems to spur development on.

 

another_someone

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« Reply #5 on: 23/04/2008 18:55:49 »
I think they were responsible for inventing liquid rocket power and the first operational jet engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Goddard_%28scientist%29
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Robert Hutchings Goddard, Ph.D. (October 5, 1882 – August 10, 1945), U.S. professor and scientist, was a pioneer of controlled, liquid-fueled rocketry. He launched the world's first liquid-fueled rocket on March 16, 1926. From 1930 to 1935 he launched rockets that attained speeds of up to 885 km/h (550 mph). Though his work in the field was revolutionary, he was sometimes ridiculed for his theories. He received little recognition during his lifetime, but would eventually come to be called one of the fathers of modern rocketry for his life's work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_engine#History
Quote
In 1928, RAF College Cranwell cadet Frank Whittle formally submitted his ideas for a turbo-jet to his superiors. In October 1929 he developed his ideas further.  On 16 January 1930 in England, Whittle submitted his first patent (granted in 1932). The patent showed a two-stage axial compressor feeding a single-sided centrifugal compressor. Whittle would later concentrate on the simpler centrifugal compressor only, for a variety of practical reasons. Whittle had his first engine running in April 1937. It was liquid-fuelled, and included a self-contained fuel pump. Whittle's team experienced near-panic when the engine would not stop, even after the fuel was switched off. It turned out that fuel had leaked into the engine and accumulated in pools. So the engine would not stop until all the leaked fuel had burned off. Whittle was unable to interest the government in his invention, and development continued at a slow pace.

In 1935 Hans von Ohain started work on a similar design in Germany, apparently unaware of Whittle's work.[7] His first engine was strictly experimental and could only run under external power, but he was able to demonstrate the basic concept. Ohain was then introduced to Ernst Heinkel, one of the larger aircraft industrialists of the day, who immediately saw the promise of the design. Heinkel had recently purchased the Hirth engine company, and Ohain and his master machinist Max Hahn were set up there as a new division of the Hirth company. They had their first HeS 1 engine running by September 1937. Unlike Whittle's design, Ohain used hydrogen as fuel, supplied under external pressure. Their subsequent designs culminated in the gasoline-fuelled HeS 3 of 1,100 lbf (5 kN), which was fitted to Heinkel's simple and compact He 178 airframe and flown by Erich Warsitz in the early morning of August 27, 1939, from Marienehe aerodrome, an impressively short time for development. The He 178 was the world's first jet plane.

Meanwhile, Whittle's engine was starting to look useful, and his Power Jets Ltd. started receiving Air Ministry money. In 1941 a flyable version of the engine called the W.1, capable of 1000 lbf (4 kN) of thrust, was fitted to the Gloster E28/39 airframe specially built for it, and first flew on May 15, 1941 at RAF Cranwell.

In terms of the first modern jet engine, Whittle's work predates the German work by about 6 months; but in terms of operational aircraft, the Me262 predates the Gloster Meteor by about 9 days (Heinkel were ahead in terms of getting a plane flying, but it seems that politics favoured Messerschmitt).

Nonetheless, neither the Germans nor the British designs relied on the other, so neither could be said to have bequeathed the technology (some of the ideas being already decades old).  In the wider scheme of things, it was the British design that was given gratis to the Americans, who then built up their own jet industry; and was stolen by the Russians to start their jet industry.
 

Offline that mad man

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« Reply #6 on: 23/04/2008 19:52:28 »
Thanks for the necessary corrections. :)

You busted another myth that I learnt at school!
 

Offline GBSB

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« Reply #7 on: 23/04/2008 20:57:36 »
and was stolen by the Russians to start their jet industry.

According to “UK History channel” the first jet powered airplane was produced in Russia (Soviet Union) long before Germans developed their own first jet powered airplane.
 

another_someone

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« Reply #8 on: 23/04/2008 21:16:44 »
According to “UK History channel” the first jet powered airplane was produced in Russia (Soviet Union) long before Germans developed their own first jet powered airplane.

Not sure exactly what you are referring to, but there were a number of rocket planes, and motor jet designs that preceded the first functioning turbojet engine.  When we were using the term 'jet', I took it to refer to turbojets (i.e. where the compressor is driven by the exhaust gasses), and I don't believe there were any turbojets before the Heinkel, Messerschmitt, and Gloster models.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #9 on: 23/04/2008 23:53:54 »
The Nazis gave us motorways. German Autobahnen were originally built to facilitate the fast movement of troops & military equipment.
 

Offline GBSB

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« Reply #10 on: 24/04/2008 01:32:14 »
According to “UK History channel” the first jet powered airplane was produced in Russia (Soviet Union) long before Germans developed their own first jet powered airplane.

Not sure exactly what you are referring to, but there were a number of rocket planes, and motor jet designs that preceded the first functioning turbojet engine.  When we were using the term 'jet', I took it to refer to turbojets (i.e. where the compressor is driven by the exhaust gasses), and I don't believe there were any turbojets before the Heinkel, Messerschmitt, and Gloster models.

At the moment I can’t provide link but the last time I saw on TV was in 2007 on UK History Channel that shows that first jet powered plane was produced in Soviet Union.

I am not sure did they are the first to turbojet engine but according to UK history Channel the Soviets produced fist jet engine powered aeroplane. (Not to mix wit plane where rockets where used to boost speed and range)

I can’t remember exactly in which year but it was a few years before Germans. Main problem was that after each flight the turbo jet engine was damaged because at that time the alloy metal wasn’t used to build jet engine. That is what I can remember.

UK history channel is reliable source and surely is possible to prove is it information or misinformation what I wrote.

 

another_someone

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What the Nazi's did for us!
« Reply #11 on: 24/04/2008 02:32:59 »
At the moment I can’t provide link but the last time I saw on TV was in 2007 on UK History Channel that shows that first jet powered plane was produced in Soviet Union.

I am not sure did they are the first to turbojet engine but according to UK history Channel the Soviets produced fist jet engine powered aeroplane. (Not to mix wit plane where rockets where used to boost speed and range)

I can’t remember exactly in which year but it was a few years before Germans. Main problem was that after each flight the turbo jet engine was damaged because at that time the alloy metal wasn’t used to build jet engine. That is what I can remember.

UK history channel is reliable source and surely is possible to prove is it information or misinformation what I wrote.

So far, I have found references to the Bereznyak-Isayev BI-1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereznyak-Isayev_BI-1
Quote
The Bereznyak-Isayev BI-1 was a revolutionary Russian Rocket plane made by Bereznyak-Isayev that was developed several years before the more widely known Messerschmitt Me 163. It was to be armed with 2 20 mm cannons and some improvements were considered like ramjets on each wing but this model didn't even pass the wind tunnel test. Unlike the German rocket fighter, the BI-1 was not lost to any fuel accidents. It was lost following an accident in which the plane suddenly made an uncontrollable dive to the ground. Development was stopped before it could enter service with the Soviet Air Force but was still used as a test glider.

This is a rocket plane, although some suggestions that it either had, or was intended to be, enhanced with ram jets (the V1 also used a form of ramjet).

and also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkhip_Mikhailovich_Lyulka
Quote
Arkhip Mikhailovich Lyulka (1908-1984), a Ukrainian designer of jet engines, was born on March 23, 1908 in Savarka village in Kiev Oblast of Ukraine. He was educated in Savarka village school and the Kiev Polytechnic Institute (KPI) (1931). Mykhailo Krawtchouk was his teacher and mentor in both schools. In 1939-1941, Lyulka proposed a design of a turbofan engine but the engine was never built. He moved from Kharkiv to Moscow after the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and worked on designing military aircraft engines.

Lyulka designed the first indigenous Soviet jet engine TR-1(1945-1947) which was installed on Su-11 (Sukhoi) jets. He designed AL-5, Lyulka AL-7, Lyulka AL-21 turbojet engines and Saturn AL-31 turbofans which were installed on S-17, Su-20, Su-24, MiG-23, Su-27 and other Soviet military aircraft. Lyulka also designed upper stage engines for the Soviet moon rocket N1. NPO Saturn is named after Arkhip Lyulka. Lyulka died in Moscow on June 2, 1984.

Here we have a design for a turbofan in 1939 (later than Whittle and von Ohain), but nothing tangible was ever produced.

If you know of anything else, by all means let me know.
 

Offline GBSB

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« Reply #12 on: 25/04/2008 00:04:32 »
If you know of anything else, by all means let me know.

All what I know is from The History Channel. From 1999 to 2002 I was living in USA and I saw on History Channel reportage of Russian aviation from time before revolution till post soviet area and similar reportage on UK History channel here in UK in 2007.

I like to watch again but I don’t now how to find this particularly reportage. If I find I will let you know. Before that I can’ say anything more than what I already said.

I like to comment on original question “What the Nazis did for us” I think that Nazis didn’t do noting good for us.

Any science from Nazis time isn’t product of Nazis ideology but is product of German culture and German sense for invention.

The Nazis just used German cultural heritage to create immense misery for many including Germans people.

It is true that many scientists of Jewish origin/ Jewish religion have fled Germany. But most of them were already established as scientist before they fled.

If Edison was living in Germany under the Nazi I doubt that he will be able to invent too much and same applying in case of Marie Curie and many other.

I think that question “What the Nazis did for us” is ridiculous question.

The appropriate question should be “What the Nazis did to us”.
 

another_someone

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What the Nazi's did for us!
« Reply #13 on: 25/04/2008 02:18:08 »
Any science from Nazis time isn’t product of Nazis ideology but is product of German culture and German sense for invention.

It is always a question, in any society, to what extent the politicians control what happens within the nation, and to what extent the people act in their own manner despite the political elite.

But it should also be recognised that while the NAZIs were remembered for their racism, but they were by name, and by nature, nationalists and socialists, and these lead to policies that had nothing to do with racism (such as the "People's Car").

It is true that Germany had for a long time been at the forefront of social policy (Karl Marx was German, and the UK state pension's system was modelled on the earlier German system), so you can argue that the social policies of the NAZIs were a natural continuation of historic German social policies - but the NAZIs would not have had any public support unless there had been some substantial commonality of view in many areas between their policy and the common ethos of the German people of the day.  Even the racist policies themselves were not inherently an anathema to large sections of the German people, although the murder of the Jews is something that only a very small minority of Germans would have tolerated, but the concept of Germany for a purely ethnic German population was something that had much wider German support.  To be fair, this was true of many other nations of the time - even the US policies on race relations in the 1930s and 1940s was not something to be proud of.

It is true that many scientists of Jewish origin/ Jewish religion have fled Germany. But most of them were already established as scientist before they fled.

Ofcourse they were already established - that is why the Americans allowed them in - otherwise they would as likely as not have been sent back to Germany (the fate of the ship the St. Louis being a prime example of the lack of willingness of the US to accept Jewish refugees from Germany unless they were particularly useful to them, as established eminent scientists inherently were).

If Edison was living in Germany under the Nazi I doubt that he will be able to invent too much and same applying in case of Marie Curie and many other.

As a matter of detail, Marie Curie discovered many things, but invented nothing - the converse is true of Edison.

I am not sure why you believe that Edison would not have thrived in the NAZI era, although you may be more correct about Marie Curie (who was of Polish origin, and even the fact that she was a woman may not have been in her favour in the NAZI era).  In any case, the NAZIs were more supportive of engineering (hence again to Edison's potential benefit) than of basic science.
« Last Edit: 25/04/2008 02:20:06 by another_someone »
 

Offline benep

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« Reply #14 on: 25/04/2008 21:37:01 »
Didn't they gave us 'Herbie 'the 'Peoples Car ' ?

 LOL







 

Offline benep

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« Reply #15 on: 25/04/2008 21:38:55 »
the germans have given us nice sausages yumm
 

Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #16 on: 25/04/2008 22:28:36 »
Didn't they gave us 'Herbie 'the 'Peoples Car ' ?

 LOL








 I like the marraige of the two bugs.. Nice one Neily! LOL!
 

Offline ukmicky

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« Reply #17 on: 26/04/2008 21:30:07 »
I think they were responsible for inventing liquid rocket power and the first operational jet engine.

Not sure if the Germans had the first operational jet engine , i think that honour may go to the British.

Both the British and the Germans had operational jet fighters during the second world war but the German engines were not reliable and often blew up. The engines also had to be rebuilt after every flight because the fan blade materials of the day couldn't withstand the heat generated.

The British opted for a different design ,in that it compressed the air in a different way and therefore didn't suffer from the heat problems. I believe there is even second world war British jets still flying today on their original engines.
 

another_someone

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« Reply #18 on: 26/04/2008 22:21:57 »
Not sure if the Germans had the first operational jet engine , i think that honour may go to the British.

If you look at my post above, you will see the question of who came first is really down to semantics.

You are right that the first (turbo) jet engine (only by a few months) was British, but the earlier comment talked of the first operational jet aircraft, and the Germans flew their aircraft before the Brits flew theirs.

You are right about the unreliability of the German Me262, but it did fly, however unreliably, and it seems the airframe may even have been better than the British counterpart (in terms of performance).  Even the question of reliability may not have totally down to the incompetence of the German designers, since by that stage of the war it was increasingly difficult for the German engineers to obtain materials for exotic alloys.
 

Offline GBSB

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« Reply #19 on: 29/04/2008 01:40:32 »

As a matter of detail, Marie Curie discovered many things, but invented nothing - the converse is true of Edison.

In some case the invention going along side with discovery. For examples the invention of gramophone gives discoverer how to reproduce sound. It was great discovery that influence many following invention and discovery.
In some case discovery like discovering polonium and founding or enhancing humans understanding about radioactivity offered new invention and enable new discovery. In the case of some other scientists, we have to believe how they are great scientist that have discovered plenty but you can do nothing with those discovery and it is called science instead of metaphysic. It is plenty confusion today about using term like invention, science, experimental science etc.

Any way I didn’t mean just on material science but as well on humanistic science. One example is Sigmund Freud - founder of psychoanalysis. I doubt that he will able to think about psychoanalysis if was living under nazi regime.


I am not sure why you believe that Edison would not have thrived in the NAZI era, although you may be more correct about Marie Curie (who was of Polish origin, and even the fact that she was a woman may not have been in her favour in the NAZI era).  In any case, the NAZIs were more supportive of engineering (hence again to Edison's potential benefit) than of basic science.


For the Nazis, the purpose of discoveries and inventions is to strength the belief in mental supremacy of Arian race. Discovery and invention that comes from non Arian was undesirable.

Another fact is, that living under constantan fear for own life and for lives of loved ones will make from greatest genius just simply man without ability to invent anything.
 

another_someone

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« Reply #20 on: 30/04/2008 06:54:18 »
It is plenty confusion today about using term like invention, science, experimental science etc.

The terms 'discovery' and 'invention' have pretty clear meanings and distinctions in teh English language.  You discover what is there (polonium is there whether Marie Curie had discovered it or not), and you invent what is not there (the gramophone record would never have existed unless someone had invented it).

Any way I didn’t mean just on material science but as well on humanistic science. One example is Sigmund Freud - founder of psychoanalysis. I doubt that he will able to think about psychoanalysis if was living under nazi regime.

Sigmund Freud was Jewish, and so certainly would not have faired well under the NZAIs.  In any case, I believe the NAZIs had much disdain for psychoanalysis whoever had invented it.

For the Nazis, the purpose of discoveries and inventions is to strength the belief in mental supremacy of Arian race. Discovery and invention that comes from non Arian was undesirable.

To some extent the same could be said of any political system - they use sport, and science, to prove the superiority of their own view of human society.  The Soviets and Chinese both did this, and so do the Americans.

Another fact is, that living under constantan fear for own life and for lives of loved ones will make from greatest genius just simply man without ability to invent anything.

This is not at all the case, and has been shown not to be the case in many oppressive societies.  What you may have more validity in saying is that oppressive regimes are often poorly organised, and cannot make proper use of the inventions, but not that it stops the inventions from happening.  On the contrary, often in oppressive regimes, the genius will focus even more on his work as a way of forgetting the problems of living in the real world.
 

Offline GBSB

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« Reply #21 on: 02/05/2008 12:43:12 »

The terms 'discovery' and 'invention' have pretty clear meanings and distinctions in teh English language. 

I agree. I think it isn’t necessary to point on English technical language-(English technical vocabulary) but just on English language. Confusion makes new invented words like experimental scientists etc.


You discover what is there (polonium is there whether Marie Curie had discovered it or not),

I agree. Only is to point that many material things and as well many laws of physics existed before was discovered and that is very likely that still many existing waiting to be discovered.


and you invent what is not there (the gramophone record would never have existed unless someone had invented it).

That is right. The point is that by invention of gramophone Edison discovered how to reproduce sound (record and replay of the sound). It is example how in some case an invention go along with discovery.
Possibility to reproduce sound existed before Edison invented (phonograph) gramophone but invention of phonograph enabled discovery of sound reproduction. Edison was inventor and discoverer.


For the Nazis, the purpose of discoveries and inventions is to strength the belief in mental supremacy of Arian race. Discovery and invention that comes from non Arian was undesirable.

To some extent the same could be said of any political system - they use sport, and science, to prove the superiority of their own view of human society.  The Soviets and Chinese both did this, and so do the Americans.

The intention to prove the superiority of owns view of human society is different from intention to prove the racial superiority and producing different impact on population.

Another fact is, that living under constantan fear for own life and for lives of loved ones will make from greatest genius just simply man without ability to invent anything.

This is not at all the case, and has been shown not to be the case in many oppressive societies.  What you may have more validity in saying is that oppressive regimes are often poorly organised, and cannot make proper use of the inventions, but not that it stops the inventions from happening.  On the contrary, often in oppressive regimes, the genius will focus even more on his work as a way of forgetting the problems of living in the real world.

I think that most scientists including the rest of population in Soviet Union was thinking that American scientists live in oppressive society and same applying for most of American scientists and the rest of population.

Many regimes in history have oppressed particularly population or particularly segment of population to by loyalty of les oppressed population but the Nazis have done to extremes.

I think that in under Nazi regime still many Germans didn’t have sense that thy living in oppressed regime and the reasons are many and one is that Nazis was just short time on the power and other is constant fear from bombing etc.

On the other side the Jewish population in Nazi Germany (and in the rest of Europe that was occupied by Nazis) was in different situation where the fear from own countryman is far more than the fear from bombing and fear from foreseeable invader.

I think that being German under Nazi regime in Germany still enable a man to invent or to discovery but being Jewish under Nazi regime in Germany is hardly for me to imagine the ability to be occupied with invention or discoveries.

The second half of 19 and the beginning of 20 century was time when the Jewish population start to actively participate in political and cultural life first in Western Europe and shortly after in Russia. Raising the Nazis on the power has to the some extent reversed that process in whole Europe and in Soviet Union. (Without taking in account that in many regions, particularly in the pre Nazi time Europe, significant Jewish population was completely eliminated.)

I think If Nazi movement didn’t gain power we will have much more real scientists that have Jewish background.

That is my opinion based on my knowledge of history and social physiology on the other side I am not historian or anthropologist.
 

sooyeah

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What the Nazi's did for us!
« Reply #22 on: 12/06/2008 13:09:53 »
Fanta orange, the drink.

The Nazis didn't make it, Coke did.

But Coke a Cola only made it, because they couldn't sell the Nazis, normal Coke, that was the allies drink.

Fanta- or as I like to call it, Nazi Coke.
 
So in some way, they did give us Fanta. What a crowning achievement!
 

WIZBIT_69

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« Reply #23 on: 29/09/2008 11:16:44 »
I would just like to add actually that how anyone could look up to Hitler beggars belief; you can often see a mans true colours in defeat, there he is(Hitler) the allies are getting closer and what does he say:
 
"Burn everything! they can conker ashes!" Here's a man that really cares about his people.

And I say to any budding Nazi today; Our grandfathers and their generation, fought suffered and died to stop that Nazi, fascist, racist, crap. So I say it load and clear, If you are a fascist, you dishonor everything they fought and died for- FOR SHAME!
« Last Edit: 29/09/2008 11:19:14 by WIZBIT_69 »
 

Offline Evie

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« Reply #24 on: 29/09/2008 18:43:34 »
I would just like to add actually that how anyone could look up to Hitler beggars belief; you can often see a mans true colours in defeat, there he is(Hitler) the allies are getting closer and what does he say:
 
"Burn everything! they can conker ashes!" Here's a man that really cares about his people.

And I say to any budding Nazi today; Our grandfathers and their generation, fought suffered and died to stop that Nazi, fascist, racist, crap. So I say it load and clear, If you are a fascist, you dishonor everything they fought and died for- FOR SHAME!


In my opinion, this is not at all the aim of this thread. Paul even stated at the beginning that the Nazis were not ethical in their experimentation. But science often follows the money (I know this all too well, working for a government agency where projects are reliant on grants, etc.), and the Nazis were well-funded. Though not many
(I think it is naive in this world to say "any") would condone the means that were used, it is more than valid to wonder what knowledge may have been gained by the Nazis experiments. Not one of the posts in this thread had anything facist or racist to say.
 

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« Reply #24 on: 29/09/2008 18:43:34 »

 

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