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Author Topic: UK rejects the Holocost.  (Read 13445 times)

Offline JimBob

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UK rejects the Holocost.
« on: 07/05/2008 05:21:06 »
I just learned that this week the UK removed The Holocaust from its school curriculum because it "offended" the Muslim population which claims it never occurred. 

This is a frightening portent of the lack of moral integrity that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving in to it. Re-writing history is just a bad idea. George Santana, the philosopher, said something to the effect that "those who forget (perhaps it was ignore) the past are bound to repeat it."

It is a matter of recorded fact that when The Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, General Dwight Eisenhower, first saw the victims of the death camps, he ordered all possible photographs to be taken, and for the German people from surrounding villages to be ushered through the camps and even made to bury the dead. He did this because he said in words to this effect: 'Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses - because somewhere down the track of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened'

It is now more than 60 years after the Second World War in Europe ended. 

I am posting this in memory of the 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, 1,900 Catholic and Lutheran priests and unknown numbers of Gypsies and other undesirables who were murdered, massacred, raped, burned, starved and humiliated - all with the German - and Russian - peoples looking the other way!

THE UK IS LOOKING AWAY!

Now, more than ever, with Iran, among others, claiming the Holocaust to be 'a myth,' it is imperative to make sure the world never forgets. 

The Holocaust actually happened! It is historical fact!

WHY didn't the English people, almost defeated by the Germans in WW II, object to this pandering to suit a group of people - their religious persuasion is unimportant - in spite of the overwhelming evidence that supports the Holocaust. I actually knew a man who was in a concentration camp. I saw his tattoo. His recollections are burned into my mind and I just cannot imagine the suffering he endured. I shudder when I remember he told me that he ate his brother's flesh to survive.

This is not something I would stand by idly and let my government do to me and my family (we are not Jewish, either). If I did, it could happen to my family's descendants.

Doesn't moral integrity count for anything any more?

WHY ARE THE BRITISH DOING SOMETHING LIKE THIS? IT IS INSANE!

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." 
        --- Edmund Burke   
« Last Edit: 07/05/2008 05:23:11 by JimBob »


 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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UK rejects the Holocost.
« Reply #1 on: 07/05/2008 08:13:15 »
Although I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments, you have, unfortunately, fallen foul of media sensationalism.

Teaching about the holocaust has not been removed from the National Curriculum. Schools are free to choose the content of lessons within the framework of the NC. Some headteachers are wary of teaching about subjects where there is a major cultural conflict with what is taught to pupils at home.

A report was commissioned and reported that (according to The Times Online) "In particular settings, teachers of history are unwilling to challenge highly contentious or charged versions of history in which pupils are steeped at home, in their community or in a place of worship."

The report gave the example of a history department in a northern city which decided not to teach the Holocaust as a topic for GCSE coursework due to the offence it could cause among the Moslem families whose childen attend the school.

It
[the report] cited another school which taught the Holocaust, but then avoided teaching the Crusades because "balanced treatment" of the topic would have challenged what some local mosques were teaching.

Emotive issues such as the slave trade can be taught too blandly, portraying Afro-Caribbeans as victims and isolating black children, the report said.

But when teachers downplay the role of the white authorities in abolishing the slave trade, white children can become alienated.


History is often distorted to better suit the culture in which it is taught. For instance, WWII history was, until recently, heavily censored in Japan. However, where there is clear evidence that certain events too place then that evidence should be put forward. Cultural appeasement should not enter into it.
« Last Edit: 07/05/2008 08:22:24 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline JimBob

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UK rejects the Holocost.
« Reply #2 on: 07/05/2008 10:10:08 »
We do have our yellow journalist here as well. In fact we share the same one - Rupert Murdoch. He owns papers such as USA Today, a nationally printed paper that is sold uniformly across the US. His multimedia holdings are also quite large.

Aside:
Damn, I am beginning to feel like Neil - I'd pay a hundred bucks for a good nights sleep. I have fought he bed for six hors and finally gave it up. Useless exercise. I haven't really slept well for a couple of months now. (string of curses by the best Chief Petty officers in the US navy  deleted - My nephew, a master Chief Patty Officer and nuclear engineer has taught me well.)

 

Offline Nobody's Confidant

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« Reply #3 on: 07/05/2008 13:14:13 »
I read in a book about how the Britain's birth rate is really low, 1.62 or along the lines of that, and it's really low because of something with their gov't set up. Muslims, however, still have 12 kids a family and are outnumbering the Britains. Maybe that's why this is happening.

Psst, don't hang me, hang the author!
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #4 on: 07/05/2008 19:47:44 »
I read in a book about how the Britain's birth rate is really low, 1.62 or along the lines of that, and it's really low because of something with their gov't set up. Muslims, however, still have 12 kids a family and are outnumbering the Britains. Maybe that's why this is happening.

Psst, don't hang me, hang the author!

I know plenty of Moslems and none of them has got 12 kids. The majority have 3-4.
 

Offline JimBob

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« Reply #5 on: 07/05/2008 20:21:43 »
SO what is the birth rate of the indigenous British population?
 

Offline Make it Lady

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« Reply #6 on: 07/05/2008 22:32:57 »
It was 2.5 but it does go up and down from time to time.

I went to Hiroshima recently and they have really dumbed down the peace museum. Previously it left me rung out and tremendously sad but they have taken the edges off in order to be diplomatic. Before they said that yes, the Hiroshima bomb was sort of justified, the Nagasaki one was just an experiment and not necessary. This is now brushed under the carpet. These events in history should not be sanitised. War and geneside is not nice, not far and not something easy to digest. Learning about these events should make you cry, get angry and feel sick to the stomach. If a parent has an objection to part of the curriculum they should have the chance to remove their child from that lesson. They get this option with sex education so why not cultural differences in history. I don't think teaching of history should change because of the make up of the school.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #7 on: 07/05/2008 23:23:14 »
If a parent has an objection to part of the curriculum they should have the chance to remove their child from that lesson. They get this option with sex education so why not cultural differences in history. I don't think teaching of history should change because of the make up of the school.

I totally agree.
 

Offline JimBob

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« Reply #8 on: 08/05/2008 02:14:11 »
The act that some school are folding to the pressure is still reprehensible to me. Neglecting the role of history in ones life neglects the root cause of the present situation of the relations between radical Moslem's and the West, the way the black people are treated in the US and many, many other social issues on which dialog, not confrontation, is needed.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #9 on: 08/05/2008 08:01:41 »
The act that some school are folding to the pressure is still reprehensible to me. Neglecting the role of history in ones life neglects the root cause of the present situation of the relations between radical Moslem's and the West, the way the black people are treated in the US and many, many other social issues on which dialog, not confrontation, is needed.

At least British schools don't teach Creationism as fact.

I can't help but think that the pressure is coming from themselves. It's the PC brigade not wishing to offend people where, probably, no offence would be taken anyway.
 

Offline Nobody's Confidant

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« Reply #10 on: 08/05/2008 13:15:22 »
I read in a book about how the Britain's birth rate is really low, 1.62 or along the lines of that, and it's really low because of something with their gov't set up. Muslims, however, still have 12 kids a family and are outnumbering the Britains. Maybe that's why this is happening.

Psst, don't hang me, hang the author!

I know plenty of Moslems and none of them has got 12 kids. The majority have 3-4.
It was 2.5 but it does go up and down from time to time.


So they still out number you.
 

Offline rosalind dna

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« Reply #11 on: 08/05/2008 13:26:27 »
It is still wrong to forgot and neglect the awful history of the
Holocaust and I am sort of sure that most of us on TNS have awareness of people, who suffered then.

The UK looked away in WW2 as they do now with other war crimes,
which I could list for ever (I won't).
If this history is not taught then it might get repeated as it's already done in the latter half of the 20th century and now in the
21st century.
 

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« Reply #12 on: 08/05/2008 14:24:11 »
I read in a book about how the Britain's birth rate is really low, 1.62 or along the lines of that, and it's really low because of something with their gov't set up. Muslims, however, still have 12 kids a family and are outnumbering the Britains. Maybe that's why this is happening.

Psst, don't hang me, hang the author!

[/quote]
So they still out number you.
[/quote]

Get a new book.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #13 on: 08/05/2008 16:05:20 »
Come on guys what chance has anyone got of ignoring the Holocaust. We are bombarded with reminders almost on a daily basis, there have been films, documentaries, songs, poems, personal accounts and even protests, so the chances of this topic falling into the unwritten history department has long since gone.
 

Offline Nobody's Confidant

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« Reply #14 on: 08/05/2008 17:19:31 »
I read in a book about how the Britain's birth rate is really low, 1.62 or along the lines of that, and it's really low because of something with their gov't set up. Muslims, however, still have 12 kids a family and are outnumbering the Britains. Maybe that's why this is happening.

Psst, don't hang me, hang the author!

Quote from: Nobody's Confidant
So they still out number you.

Get a new book.
Why?
 

Offline rosalind dna

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« Reply #15 on: 08/05/2008 17:38:13 »
Come on guys what chance has anyone got of ignoring the Holocaust. We are bombarded with reminders almost on a daily basis, there have been films, documentaries, songs, poems, personal accounts and even protests, so the chances of this topic falling into the unwritten history department has long since gone.


But if our next generation are not taught about their grandparents history as the Holocaust was then for some.
It will be forgotten when that generation die.
 

Offline JimBob

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« Reply #16 on: 08/05/2008 17:58:09 »
Absolutely agree, R-DNA
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #17 on: 08/05/2008 19:28:16 »
"The UK looked away in WW2 as they do now with other war crimes"
That's odd, I thought we fought in it, then we took part in the war crimes trials.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #18 on: 08/05/2008 20:12:22 »
I know you have probably read this somewhere, and you probably do not realise how badly your initial post offends the majority of people in the United Kingdom and other Countries that were involved in the war. When you mention Britain as a whole, please redirect your comments towards the government and not the people of Britain who all remember the losses in the war and many have families that witnessed it at first hand.

Politicians might want to forget. But the British People will have long memories of  their betrayal.


I am posting this in memory of all the Brave soldiers who laid down their lives to liberate the Jews from the death camps and receive far less publicity than those that they laid down their lives for. I attended the last Dunkirk Memorial with my wife and we felt moved seeing the last few brave civilians and soldiers who were wearing their medals with pride.
Let us also remember that the Bravest Soldiers in the world died to save the people who were subjected to the atrocities and let us not forget that the German People were also terrified by the nazis and a huge number of them never wanted to go to war. And while we are at it let us remember that Politicians create wars not soldiers! Many decent German people died because of a dictator who had delusions of grandeur Many innocent German men women and children were blown to bits and massacred in the wars! Who is remembering them?

The total estimated human loss of life caused by World War II was roughly 72 million people. The civilian toll was around 47 million, including 20 million deaths due to war related famine and disease. The military toll was about 25 million, including the deaths of about 4 million prisoners of war in captivity. The Allies lost approximately 61 million people, and the Axis powers lost 11 million. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

The Allied Soldiers are gone, let us make sure they are also never forgotten.
·   United Kingdom (England, Great Britain)
·   United States (America, USA)
·   Soviet Union (USSR, Russia)
·   France
·   Canada
·   Australia
·   China
·   Poland
·   Greece
·   Netherlands
·   Belgium
·   Czechoslovakia
·   Luxembourg
·   Norway
.    Yugoslavia


Axis Countries

Germany

Italy

Japan

Finland

Hungary

Romania

Bulgaria

Croatia

Slovakia
« Last Edit: 08/05/2008 21:12:41 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline rosalind dna

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« Reply #19 on: 08/05/2008 22:35:05 »
Yes Andrew K Fletcher but what about the genocide that has happened
since the second worldc war. Bosnia, Serbia, Kosovo, Slovenia, Croatia and in Cambodia, Vietnam.


Rwanda and Burundi.

What about the aftermath of the Burmese/Myanamar's devastation from the cyclone and that the Military Junta won't let in UN Aid
that is becoming genocidal as I type.

 

Offline JimBob

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« Reply #20 on: 09/05/2008 01:29:45 »
I know you have probably read this somewhere, and you probably do not realise how badly your initial post offends the majority of people in the United Kingdom and other Countries that were involved in the war. When you mention Britain as a whole, please redirect your comments towards the government and not the people of Britain who all remember the losses in the war and many have families that witnessed it at first hand.

Politicians might want to forget. But the British People will have long memories of  their betrayal.


As I tried to point out by quoting Burke, THE PEOPLE are to blame - if they do nothing, as seems to be the case in the incidents cited in Dr. Beaver's more balanced perspective rather than the sensationalism I cited - then this insanity will continue.

The masses of the people MUST make sure it never ever is forgotten. They failed.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #21 on: 09/05/2008 07:55:00 »
May I dispell a few myths about the Rwanda situation.

I was living in Uganda when the Rwanda civil war exploded and was a frequent visitor to that country. I was, in fact, actually in Kigali, the Rwandan capital, when the whole place went "tits up". Seeing murderous, baying crowds with machetes and other weapons rampaging through the streets, hacking at anyone who got in their way, was a bit unnerving.

The UK government was pressing for troops from other African countries to be sent in to stop the fighting. Uganda & Tanzania had troops ready on the borders, but the UN prevaricated and insisted on trying to find a diplomatic solution. Anyone actually on the ground there could have told them that there was no chance whatsoever of such a solution as there wasn't really anyone in charge of the mobs who could say "Stop".

Belgium acted by sending in a small contingent of paratroopers to assist foreigners leaving the country (Rwanda used to be a Belgian colony and still had a large diplomatic presence at the time). That is possibly the only time in my life I've been pleased to see a Belgian.  :D

One has to consider, though, the logistics of sending in peace-keeping troops. Rwanda may only be a small country, but it is very densely populated (I believe Rwanda and neighbouring Burundi are the most densely populated African countries). There was violence in practically every corner of the land. Even small, remote villages were not immune. It would have taken an enormous number of troops to quell the violence. Sending in too small a contingent would have served only to put those troops at excessive risk. The inter-tribal tension between Tutsi & Hutu had been brewing for many years. A few troops on street corners would have stood no chance.

 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #22 on: 09/05/2008 09:45:26 »
My point is that with films like Schindler's List and others listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holocaust_films There is absolutely zero chance of anyone forgetting or even pretending to ignore what happened to the Jews during the Second World War. Do you think for one minute that Israel would permit anyone to forget this? Schindler's List for example will be repeated throughout the year across many channels, it's on DVD, it can be downloaded from the Internet, there are many Reviews about it everywhere, it won 7 Oscars and will be on our screens for the next 100 years or more and this is just one example of the massive publicity that will make sure this historic event will never be allowed to become silent despite what anyone says might happen.

Africa is Africa, they have always had tribal wars which if we looked closely into we would find that tribal politics played a very important roll in the ethnic cleansing that took place there.

Doctor Beever, RESPECT for being there and for surviving it. The U.K. Government may have been thinking about doing something but it did little to help to quell the events that soon unfolded. Sending in troops from other countries in Africa might well have helped, but it could also have gone "tits up" as each country took different sides. Remembering the second World War might be a good idea to see that adding more African Countries could well have taken the massacres to the next level.


http://www.slate.com/id/2098431/
TRUE RECONCILIATION IS IMPOSSIBLE UNTIL EVERYONE'S SUFFERING IS RECOGNIZED.
By Michael J. Kavanagh
Posted Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 6:18 PM ET
Two weeks ago, a perfect example of the deep cleavages that continue to divide Rwanda emerged after France released a report linking current President Paul Kagame to the downing of the plane carrying Rwandan President Juvenal Habyarimana on April 6, 1994. (Who brought down the plane will always be the "who shot JFK" question of the genocide.) The RPF denounced the report and called for an inquiry into the French role in the genocide. My Hutu driver, on the other hand, declared, "Kagame shot down the plane? Yeah. Everybody knows that."
But even if "everybody knows that" (in other words, that's what most Hutus think), you'll never hear them say it in public. For the most part, they're keeping their version of the story to themselves.
And for many Hutus, the feeling that pervades the country today is one of exclusion—the national month of mourning is for Tutsis. The memorial sites are for Tutsis. The businesses are for Tutsis. The government is for Tutsis. Between 500,000 and 1 million people died in Rwanda 10 years ago. Most were Tutsis who were killed in a vicious act of genocide, and that cannot be forgotten. But the innocent Hutus who died cannot be forgotten, either.
And no matter how enlightened the government's rhetoric, it seems unlikely that there can be a real, lasting conversation about "unity and reconciliation" when 80 percent of the population feels they are not part of the discussion.




[/quote]
As I tried to point out by quoting Burke, THE PEOPLE are to blame - if they do nothing, as seems to be the case in the incidents cited in Dr. Beaver's more balanced perspective rather than the sensationalism I cited - then this insanity will continue.
The masses of the people MUST make sure it never ever is forgotten. They failed.
[/quote]
 

Offline Nobody's Confidant

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« Reply #23 on: 09/05/2008 13:15:08 »
May I dispell a few myths about the Rwanda situation.

I was living in Uganda when the Rwanda civil war exploded and was a frequent visitor to that country. I was, in fact, actually in Kigali, the Rwandan capital, when the whole place went "tits up". Seeing murderous, baying crowds with machetes and other weapons rampaging through the streets, hacking at anyone who got in their way, was a bit unnerving.

The UK government was pressing for troops from other African countries to be sent in to stop the fighting. Uganda & Tanzania had troops ready on the borders, but the UN prevaricated and insisted on trying to find a diplomatic solution. Anyone actually on the ground there could have told them that there was no chance whatsoever of such a solution as there wasn't really anyone in charge of the mobs who could say "Stop".

Belgium acted by sending in a small contingent of paratroopers to assist foreigners leaving the country (Rwanda used to be a Belgian colony and still had a large diplomatic presence at the time). That is possibly the only time in my life I've been pleased to see a Belgian.  :D

One has to consider, though, the logistics of sending in peace-keeping troops. Rwanda may only be a small country, but it is very densely populated (I believe Rwanda and neighbouring Burundi are the most densely populated African countries). There was violence in practically every corner of the land. Even small, remote villages were not immune. It would have taken an enormous number of troops to quell the violence. Sending in too small a contingent would have served only to put those troops at excessive risk. The inter-tribal tension between Tutsi & Hutu had been brewing for many years. A few troops on street corners would have stood no chance.


Thank God you made it out. The world would have been sorely worse without you.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #24 on: 09/05/2008 21:08:12 »
Andrew - in the case of Rwanda, the people did do something; they went on a murderous rampage. The saddest thing about it was that anyone who knew the country could see it coming and, maybe, early intervention & positive social engineering could have prevented a lot of bloodshed.

The politics of the situation goes back at least as far as colonial days. The inter-tribal tension was like a volcano waiting to erupt. I don't know the event, or events, that finally caused the explosion.

Many Tutsi had served in Yoweri Museveni's rebel army in Uganda & helped overthrow Milton Obote. 1986 Paul Kagame, who had been an Intelligence Officer in Museveni's NRA (National Resistance Army) formed a Rwandan rebel army in southern Uganda and invaded Rwanda. In the build-up to the Rwandan civil war, Hutu militia dressed as RPF used to attack Ugandan farms & plantations along the border in an effort to get Uganda to switch allegiance. It didn't work, though, as everyone knew they were really Hutu. Myself and some other local landowners (mostly African) had our own defence force as the Ugandan army was incapable of policing the whole area.

That was part of the reason the UN did not want Ugandan troops going into Rwanda. It was feared that rather than being impartial, they would continue to support the Tutsi. But that does not explain why Tanzanian troops were prevented from taking action.
« Last Edit: 09/05/2008 21:14:13 by DoctorBeaver »
 

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