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Author Topic: How do water fuel cells work?  (Read 66804 times)

lyner

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #25 on: 19/07/2008 23:36:12 »
Back to Lavoisier then?
 

Offline skeptic

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #26 on: 20/07/2008 16:35:09 »
I will try to explain what these guys with the electrolyzers are attempting to do. They are not trying to run their cars or trucks on the hydrogen. They are using the HHO gas as an accelerant. The vapor that comes off the small droplets of gasoline burns at about 4,000 feet per second. Hydrogen in air burns at about 38,000 feet per second. When you do the math, you will see that an engine running at 2000 rpm does not have enough time to completely burn the fuel (the power stroke is only one of the four strokes per rpm). The thought is if you can catch all the fuel on fire at once, rather than waiting for the flame to make its way down from the spark plug and through the gas, you will get a more efficient burn. I hope this sheds some light on what these guys are trying to do.

I wish this were the case, but nearly every HHO device that I've seen(there are thousands for sale on ebay right now) comes with the (false)promise that you can use them to run your car on 100% hydrogen, and kick the petroleum habit. Your explanation would probably get less argument(and sell more kits) than their ads.

I have been watching the "acetone dopers", lately. They say that from 1 to 3 ounces of acetone per 10 gallons of gasoline(the exact amount depends on the car you drive) improves vaporization and combustion and thus increases mileage. It has also been said to lower hydrocarbon outputs, because of the complete burn.
There are skeptics on this one too, but in this case it is the NON-scientists. Keep in mind that they're not peddling a conversion kit or "magic formula". The only thing it may require is adjusting your car to run "lean". There are sites with a lot of information on the subject, including at least one database listing results by make and model.
 

Offline skeptic

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #27 on: 20/07/2008 16:38:09 »
Back to Lavoisier then?

Yes! Fillerup with 10 gallons of PHLOGISTON!
 

Offline Bill G

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #28 on: 21/07/2008 01:06:32 »
Quote
I wish this were the case, but nearly every HHO device that I've seen(there are thousands for sale on ebay right now) comes with the (false)promise that you can use them to run your car on 100% hydrogen, and kick the petroleum habit. Your explanation would probably get less argument(and sell more kits) than their ads.

I have been watching the "acetone dopers", lately. They say that from 1 to 3 ounces of acetone per 10 gallons of gasoline(the exact amount depends on the car you drive) improves vaporization and combustion and thus increases mileage. It has also been said to lower hydrocarbon outputs, because of the complete burn.
There are skeptics on this one too, but in this case it is the NON-scientists. Keep in mind that they're not peddling a conversion kit or "magic formula". The only thing it may require is adjusting your car to run "lean". There are sites with a lot of information on the subject, including at least one database listing results by make and model.

I will have to agree with you about the junk on e-bay and other store fronts on the web. I have seen things that are down right lethal on flashy web sites making wild claims. There are always those who will try to take advantage of other people's ignorance. This, of course, gives everyone working on this a bad name. There are a couple of forums out there trying to get this to work and disclosing what they find, and even there, there are some who make questionable claims or have questionable testing practices. They are at least trying.
  I tried the acetone thing a couple of years ago. I gave each quanity a couple of tank fulls to verify a change. I went to the same station and used the same pump at roughly the same time of day for fuel fill ups. I tried this on a 2002 Chevy Venture and a  2005 VW Jetta diesel. I saw no change in mileage.
 

tech30528

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #29 on: 21/07/2008 03:14:21 »
I will try to explain what these guys with the electrolyzers are attempting to do. They are not trying to run their cars or trucks on the hydrogen. They are using the HHO gas as an accelerant. The vapor that comes off the small droplets of gasoline burns at about 4,000 feet per second. Hydrogen in air burns at about 38,000 feet per second. When you do the math, you will see that an engine running at 2000 rpm does not have enough time to completely burn the fuel (the power stroke is only one of the four strokes per rpm). The thought is if you can catch all the fuel on fire at once, rather than waiting for the flame to make its way down from the spark plug and through the gas, you will get a more efficient burn. I hope this sheds some light on what these guys are trying to do.


Seemed like a good place to start, and this guy seems to explain the theory as well as anyone I've seen.

Ok, a bit of history. I'm a 21 year ASE Master auto tech with an L1 advanced drivability certification. I own a repair shop in NE Georgia. Lately I have been bombarded by people wanting to know if this works, to the point where I started to do research on it. I've seen mason jars with wire , I've seen acrylic cells that look like car batteries, and most lately I saw a cylinder made of PVC pipe that has stainless electrodes in it. This seems to be the most durable and easiest to install design so far. Better yet, the guy who made it has installed it on his car, a 2000 Dodge Durango 4wd with a 5.9L V-8. He claims it went from 13mpg to 22mpg. I'm a bit of a sceptic myself, so I plugged in a scan tool to the car and checked out some parameters. This is what I found.

With the cell disconnected I found the injector on time to be about 6msec. The oxygen sensor was running in the middle of the scale, cycling normally. A few quick stabs on the throttle to load up the exhaust showed a peak oxygen sensor voltage of 1.00 volt, which means it is capable of reading a full rich condition. Short term fuel trim numbers were normal, floating around zero plus or minus a couple of percent. Long term fuel trims were unusually negative.

With the cell turned on and running at normal temperature (130F by my infrared thermometer), Oxygen sensor readings were running about normal, long term fuel trims were unusually negative, short term fuel trims were hovering about 33% negative, and injector on time was running at just a touch over 4msec.

All indications are that this engine really was running on about 50% less gasoline, which is consistant with what he was reporting in gas mileage. I had him build me a cell and installed it on a 1993 Dodge Minivan yesterday for testing. If it works, I'll have some real numbers to report along with more technical data than the "Run Your Car on Water" sites provide. If it doesn't, none of my customers will spend any money on this  and the guy who built the cell (a 65 year old cabinet maker and long time area resident) will be well known for his efforts to defruad people. And I should know within about a week.

Here is what I can tell you so far. Installation was easy, it took about 1 1/2 hours. I ran a relay and fuse for the cell, triggering it off the fuel pump to make sure the cell would only be active when the engine was running. The gas is plumbed in to the manifold thru a single manifold vacuum line (there are other more complex setups, but I wanted to start basic). The cell is running on alternator voltage, running between 12.6 and 14.7 volts, typicly right at 13.7. After the cell warms up, (about 130 degrees F) it is drawing 12.3 amps. I mixed 1 tablespoon of baking soda in to one gallon of distilled water so I would have a consistant "fuel" source for testing purposes. The cell holds 16 ounces full.

From driving it so far, I can tell you that there are no adverse drivability symptoms, if anything the car seems to have a bit better throttle response. Knowing I would be installing this system for testing, I checked the mileage last week, travelling 165 miles on 7.5 gallons of gas. Ok, it was 7.48 gallons to be precise, but I won't be driving the van in a lab. That came out to 22 mpg. I'll drive it for a week to get a couple hundred miles on it before I recalculate, and see how much water it uses. If it works we'll get in to doing some tuning. Finally, this question will be answered once and for all. Honestly, I hope it does work. I service several fleets of vehicles who would love to see this kind of savings, and I could make a couple of bucks installing them. If I was able to save people that kind of money I have no doubt my client list would grow rather quickly. If it doesn't work, at least none of them will get suckered, and I'm out some time and a few dollars in supplies. Either way, I'll win. People who ask me about it are either going to save money at the pump or on the internet.
 

Offline skeptic

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #30 on: 22/07/2008 02:23:09 »
Please keep us posted. There are many of us who have been waiting for someone to either prove or disprove this, and who isn't just selling do-it-yourself e-books.
 

Offline dan dan

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #31 on: 28/07/2008 15:47:30 »
I'm  glad you're experimenting. We truely need more people out there ready to stick their neck out there to get some true numbers.

I deffinitally used the 'spent water' thing the wrong way. Sorry, my bad. I was thinking off a theory that I had read about somewhere that the way 100% water cars work is by consuming h2o and gaining energy for motion off of that.

There are those who claim 100% water fuel, but there isn't enough evidence to prove whether or not their claims are true. (Stanly Meyer, Daniel Dangle... ect). Personally, I don't think it's at all impossible to run a car completly off of water, but right now I don't have the expertice, nor the capital to start working on something like that, so I'll stick to the little leagues.

A 50% increase is up there. There's claims of 100% increase (doubling millage), which isn't impossible, but is hard to believe. The water4gas system doesn't fully rely on just a water fuel cell (booster), but also impliments a fuel additive, and a fuel heater (somehow attached to the fuel line, so that the fuel is hot before it hits the cylinder (eccpecially helpful before the engine is warmed up) making a cleaner, more efficient burn). I think they may also encourage an increase in tire preasure, which is going to evintually give those cars a bad case of the rollovers and send insurance prices higher.

In my current tank of gas, I put about 2 and 1/2 oz of acetone in before fill up. I know this sounds corky, and I was forcing myself not to allow any dreamy super-effects to occure due to the speculation that they might occur, but I couldn't help but notice a better responce time (eccpecially when flooring it :) and a total elimination of the slight dinging sound that had found it's way into my car a number of months ago. I havn't finished the tank of gas yet (I'm about 1/4 done) but from a guestimation stand poin I'm getting about 40mpg when I should be getting about 36mpg (the way I drive can send the mpg anywhere from 34 (driving like a maniack) to 40 (driving like a grandma). This tank of gas I'm deliberately driving at about 36mpg to see if I can get about a 10% increase (as reported by others) resulting in 40mpg.

I also just purchased a set of Halo spark plugs, which claim a range of mpg increase, depinding of the vehicle. I expect about a 10% increase, kicking my total mpg to around 44mpg (an increase of 22% from the base of 36mpg).

With the water fuel cell, or booster, I only expect about another 10% increase, although this could be more or less (hopefully more). That would bring the efficiency up to around 48mpg (rivaling that of a toyota prius). and there are still other devices to be added, if they sound like a good investment (e.g. the fuel heater and scangauge).

I think it's fair to say that any good DIYer can increase their mpgs by at least 30% for under $200. It's all about making the system more efficient.
 

Offline peppercorn

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #32 on: 06/10/2008 15:00:03 »
Come on people!!! This is garbage!

Sorry to rant - especially to those of you who are unfamiliar with the laws of thermodynamics, but none of this makes sense!

Unless the people on this site are willing to throw centuries of empirical wisdom out the window then concepts such as 'water fuel cells' MUST be immediately debunked and discussed no further.

Just to clarify once & for all (yeah, that's going to stop it!):
1. water CAN be split into Hydrogen & Oxygen by several means, which ALL require energy from an external source.
2. H & O can be reacted together in a mirror image of above process, which will 'return' the energy used in the first place. But, most importantly, the energy returned will be in a less ordered form, meaning it will be impossible to utilise said energy 100% - in a useful form like mechanical work.

These statements conform to the first & second laws of thermodynamics.
I implore all those here new to the thermodynamic laws to, please, just read up on them a little. This might be a good place to start:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A467714

For those others of you still wanting to discuss 'water fuel cells' or other 'new theories', please can we at least stay in the realms of reason.  Just as I would never be arrogant enough to claim that there remain no fundamental concepts of science still to be discovered, I respectively take affront at what seems a constant desire by some individuals to take the odd piece of circumstantial evidence from some bloke in a shed as a reason to dismiss the laws that underpin our modern technological & scientific world as wrong.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2008 15:05:20 by peppercorn »
 

Offline erickejah

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #33 on: 09/10/2008 03:01:03 »
which equation
 

Offline peppercorn

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« Reply #34 on: 10/10/2008 09:25:03 »
erickejah: 'which equation', what?
 

Offline labview1958

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #35 on: 11/10/2008 15:36:39 »
In my country there is a professor going around saying that he is able to use a certain frequency to break the H-O bond. The frequency generator is powered by the car battery. It breaks a H-O bond which causes a chain reaction that causes more bonds to be broken. Something like a chain reaction for U-235. Thus very little energy is required to break H-O bonds.
 

Offline syhprum

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #36 on: 24/10/2008 13:59:37 »
I think some of the myths about running cars on water stem's from the early years of motor vehicles when only very low octane petrol was available and engines had expansion ratios (commonly called compression ratios) of about 4 to 1.
Equipment was available to inject water with the fuel enabling a higher expansion ratio to be used without pre ignition raising the output of the engine.
pressent day fuels have an octane rating of between 90 and 100 and this system would serve little purpose 
 

Offline labview1958

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« Reply #37 on: 10/11/2008 08:22:21 »
Is it possible to use a certain frequency to break the H-O bond?
 

Offline labview1958

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« Reply #38 on: 18/11/2008 15:15:45 »
Can we buy HHO and put into our car?
 

Offline Onlyinterestednotdevoted

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #39 on: 18/11/2008 21:00:26 »
Here is an idea...

Use dam power or solar power, or some other form of natural energy to produce an amount of fuel from water. Then use that as starting fuel to operate a motor, that will send more electricity into a hydrolisis.

Maybe the thing to do is not to try to seperate the molecules within the cars, but rather to put them in the car like we do with gasoline.

Critique please.
 

Offline rosy

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« Reply #40 on: 19/11/2008 09:26:19 »
OIND:
I think the reason not to do that (assuming the "fuel" you're suggesting be generated is hydrogen from electrolysis of water) is that petrol is actually much less reactive than hydrogen, and burns in oxygen under conditions where hydrogen would explode. Since the sudden release of energy over a very short time period which occurs in an explosion will tend to damage the engine, it's not such a good idea.
 

Offline backgroundwhitenoise

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« Reply #41 on: 23/11/2008 18:30:06 »
Umm... well there is (potentially) a way to run your car, well mabey not a car but an electrical generator of of water, I havnt ever heard of somone trying it, because I dought somone has, its dangerous but all it really takes is hydrogen as a fuel, which as we said can be taken from water. Now im not suggesting we burn the hydrogen and turn it back into water, no that as has been stated would give less energy back than it took to make the hydrogen, no what you do to get enormous amounts of energy is to take the hydrogen molecules, and somehow (i believe this is done with lots of pressure) bond the hydrogen protons together to form another element, it's nuclear fusion, what makes the sun shine, it could yield unheard of amounts of energy and I'm sure we could run a car on the energy created by it, unfortunately this is completely impractical because eventually we would just run out of hydrogen like any other fuel could and this would be something nature dose not re create, now ironically enough someone used the term "modern alchemy" earlier, well if you combined enough protons to make the element gold you would be successfully doing what the alchemists of ancient times tried so hard to accomplish. But again, this would be a dangerous and irresponsible thing to attempt and rather than make your car move, it would probably make it explode
 

Offline lancenti

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #42 on: 09/01/2009 08:41:35 »
I think nuclear fusion is far too dangerous for us to be playing with in our own cars, especially when a collision occurs. I'd like to not be inside a miniature sun, ever.
 

lyner

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #43 on: 09/01/2009 13:36:54 »
In my country there is a professor going around saying that he is able to use a certain frequency to break the H-O bond. The frequency generator is powered by the car battery. It breaks a H-O bond which causes a chain reaction that causes more bonds to be broken. Something like a chain reaction for U-235. Thus very little energy is required to break H-O bonds.
Either he's not a real Professor or you didn't understand what he's saying.
Yes, of course, an appropriate frequency of electromagnetic wave can break the bonds.
The problem is, as ever, that the energy returned by the bonds re-forming cannot be more than the energy which was put in. There will always be significant losses in any such system so it's a non-starter, I'm afraid.
There is not the slightest doubt, where water is concerned, that this idea is not viable. Keep your money.
 

Offline Karsten

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #44 on: 10/01/2009 00:56:07 »
I had a discussion with a "almost" relative a few months ago about this water for fuel idea. I could not get far since the discussion had to be in French (which I cannot speak well enough) or English (which he cannot speak well enough). In any case, he had a friend who claimed to have had success with this. I found my "relative" a website that explained this nonsense well. http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho.shtml. This guy offers 1 million dollar for the first one to demonstrate 25% of fuel savings. He says, not one person has even applied.

The process may result in some real fuel savings because your engine's fuel sensors are tricked into running the engine leaner. Leaner than it is good for the engine. Of course running leaner saves gas, but what is the point if you destroy you engine in the process? AND it is not using the water as an energy source either.

Karsten
« Last Edit: 10/01/2009 01:02:45 by Karsten »
 

Offline Karsten

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« Reply #45 on: 10/01/2009 01:13:44 »
... no what you do to get enormous amounts of energy is to take the hydrogen molecules, and somehow (i believe this is done with lots of pressure) bond the hydrogen protons together to form another element, it's nuclear fusion, ...

Yeah, SOMEHOW. I think several industrialized nations have supported some of their best engineers and physicists who have been working on this for several decades with billions of dollars spent and a few seconds of working fusion in all those years. Don't worry about it working for your car. It has not worked much at all at any scale and no matter how much money was available. Don't hope very hard that it will help us with our energy needs in the foreseeable future.

Karsten
 

Offline starblazer2007

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #46 on: 06/02/2009 02:27:28 »
With regards to HHO debate, I have recently fitted an HHO unit to a fleet operater's vehicle.
This vehicle was tested at an independent accredited emission testing station and driven by the operator for 1900km at which time it was retested at the same test station, the results are:
NOx reduced 74.12%
CO2 reduced 15.43%
Now this is the one I want to know why PM-LLSP increased 120.6%
Opacity Av(%)reduced 97.89%
Opacity Max(%) reduced 93.26%
Power dropped 1.41%
Torque dropped 4.98%
Fuel economy increased by 34.08%
These are not my figures they are all independent. So something seems to be working.

g/km
NOX            0.456 reduced to 0.118
C02            447.9 reduced to 378.8
PM-LLSP(mg/--) 0.403 increased to 0.889
Opacity Av(%)  2.707 decreased to 0.057
Opacity Max(%) 9.758 reduced to 0.658
Power          99.437kW reduced to 98.0389
Torque         298.453 Nm@Rear Wheels reduced to 283.599 Nm

The Vehicle is a 6cyl V6 3.6L fuel injected  petrol engine(91 octane).
The emission test was a DT80 done by a local government test station.
Given that the opacity is so much clearer the PM figure seems off.
That's why I believe it could be water vapour the test is picking up.
Does anyone else have a theory on the PM increase?
In any respect the figures seem to be pretty good to me.





 

Offline Vern

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #47 on: 06/02/2009 14:53:08 »
Why do propositions that are the wrongest take the mostest words to propose?  :) :)

Water is the ash you get when you burn H and O, as several have already stated.
 

Offline erickejah

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« Reply #48 on: 09/02/2009 00:24:00 »
Here's an article on it: http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html

 :o"Most people don't realize how energy intensive aluminum is," Woodall said. "For every pound of aluminum you get more than two kilowatt hours of energy in the form of hydrogen combustion and more than two kilowatt hours of heat from the reaction of aluminum with water. :o
 

lyner

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #49 on: 09/02/2009 10:38:44 »
And how much energy do you think an Aluminium Refinery uses to get the Aluminium out of the ore?
 

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