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Author Topic: How do water fuel cells work?  (Read 66798 times)

Offline starblazer2007

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #50 on: 10/02/2009 05:10:02 »
who said anything about aluminium?
 

Offline mcvries

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #51 on: 05/05/2009 10:42:52 »
I am very curious how both experiments went, any updates yet?
 

Offline 112inky

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #52 on: 05/05/2009 16:54:22 »
"Water is an OXIDE not a fuel"
True, but The origin was my reference to water as spent/oxidized hydrogen.
 

Offline varicap

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #53 on: 17/05/2009 19:16:39 »
Hi, my english language is bad, sorry I´m in Portugal. In my company I have 20 cars with HHO reactors instaled and we save more tham 30% in fuel monthly and our cars need less revisions in the workshop. We have CO=zero in all cars diesel or gasoline engines, more power, and more torque.

We use all products of the Hidrogenpower manufacturer to save fuel in our cars and to heat our company and to weld and cut. To heat we save 75% in fuel and to weld and cut we save about 60/70%, you can see wath we use here:   Advertising link deleted. Mod
I know that people and I know that company export that products to Universitys in USA and Canada, now they are equipping a company of 300 autobus of passengers.
 
« Last Edit: 18/05/2009 12:51:49 by sophiecentaur »
 

Offline peopleunit

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #54 on: 01/06/2009 01:55:43 »
newbielink:http://www.physorg.com/news151856915.html [nonactive] - January 22nd, 2009

Quote
The team found that the aluminum clusters react differently when exposed to water, depending on the sizes of the clusters and their unique geometric structures. Three of the aluminum clusters produced hydrogen from water at room temperature. "The ability to produce hydrogen at room temperature is significant because it means that we did not use any heat or energy to trigger the reaction," said Khanna. "Traditional techniques for splitting water to produce hydrogen generally require a lot of energy at the time the hydrogen is generated. But our method allows us to produce hydrogen without supplying heat, connecting to a battery, or adding electricity. Once the aluminum clusters are synthesized, they can generate hydrogen on demand without the need to store it."

Khanna hopes that the team's findings will pave the way toward investigating how the aluminum clusters can be recycled for continual usage and how the conditions for the release of hydrogen can be controlled. "It looks as though we might be able to come up with ways to remove the hydroxyl group (OH-) that remains attached to the aluminum clusters after they generate hydrogen so that we can reuse the aluminum clusters again and again," he said.
 

Offline Databit

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #55 on: 23/07/2009 18:43:27 »
Water is not a fuel or a power source.  It is a battery.

A battery is simply stored potential energy.  When you apply an electrical charge to water, it seperates (blah blah blah, already covered in every other post here) and becomes potential energy.  That potential is released when the hydrogen explosively oxidizes.  The amount of energy released though is not any more than the energy that was put into it to separate the atoms.  It just is released at a different rate so it appears to be more.

One of the reasons that a 100% water fueled car is not currently feasible is because you cannot perform electrolysis on the water fast enough to make that much fuel.  Hydrogen grabs a hold of oxygen much more readily than it lets go.  We have effective means to break these bonds with electricity but it is a relatively slow process compared to how fast they readily go back together.

So the statement made earlier is that the power is coming from the water itself being consumed into energy.  This is incorrect.  The energy released in the destruction of an atom would be phenomenal and you would likely blow the head off your engine if you were capable of releasing the energy from the water atoms.  Releasing the energy from the atom is what they did at Nagasaki and Hiroshima.  In the case of water for fuel it is really just electrical energy.

“Electrical energy?!?!  It blows up!  There is no lightning!, it is NOT electrical energy!”

There I got that out of the way for you.

What it comes down to are electrons.  Hydrogen and Oxygen are held together by bonds where the electron from one atom is shared with another atom because there is room for the electron in both atoms.  Now if you apply an electrical charge to the water (What is electricity but a controlled flow of electrons) electrons flood in between the atoms and fill in those holes in the electron field and thus the bond is broken because there is no longer room to share electrons.  But the potential is now there for them to join back together in a state of oxidation.  (Read: Potential = battery).

Now we can all agree that when burning the hydrogen that what is happening is it is being oxidized.  When this occurs, the Hydrogen is joining into another bond with the oxygen by sharing electrons again.  The explosiveness in which hydrogen is able to reconnect this bond is where the physical energy comes from, but it is still an electrical reaction. And the electrical energy being used at that time is equal (less than) to the energy that was put in to separate the water molecules in the first place.

So:  Water running a car is a modified battery.
 

Offline Databit

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #56 on: 23/07/2009 18:49:37 »
newbielink:http://www.physorg.com/news151856915.html [nonactive] - January 22nd, 2009

Quote
The team found that the aluminum clusters react differently when exposed to water, depending on the sizes of the clusters and their unique geometric structures. Three of the aluminum clusters produced hydrogen from water at room temperature. "The ability to produce hydrogen at room temperature is significant because it means that we did not use any heat or energy to trigger the reaction," said Khanna. "Traditional techniques for splitting water to produce hydrogen generally require a lot of energy at the time the hydrogen is generated. But our method allows us to produce hydrogen without supplying heat, connecting to a battery, or adding electricity. Once the aluminum clusters are synthesized, they can generate hydrogen on demand without the need to store it."

Khanna hopes that the team's findings will pave the way toward investigating how the aluminum clusters can be recycled for continual usage and how the conditions for the release of hydrogen can be controlled. "It looks as though we might be able to come up with ways to remove the hydroxyl group (OH-) that remains attached to the aluminum clusters after they generate hydrogen so that we can reuse the aluminum clusters again and again," he said.

Oops, energy was used to create the aluminum clusters to begin with, then they degrade and have to be recycled.  That is more energy going in.  It is not free enrgy, the energy is just being added in a different part of the process.

It is easy not to consider all aspects of a situation.
 

Offline alanan

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #57 on: 24/12/2009 10:56:06 »
 ::) :( When I was at school in the 1950's there was a section in my science book dealing with adding water through the carburetor of a car engine to increase economy.The text did not definitely state the cause but said that it may be due to the water breaking down under the combustion conditions and becoming a fuel.I have only come across one person who has succeded with this. He had a large container of water on the bonnet of a fairly heavy 6 cylinder car which he was using to make deliveries of large trailer loads of firewood. The water dripped into the air intake and he was getting a fuel economy about 30% better than would normally be expected.
 

Offline diogenesNY

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #58 on: 27/12/2009 02:11:37 »
::) :( When I was at school in the 1950's there was a section in my science book dealing with adding water through the carburetor of a car engine to increase economy.The text did not definitely state the cause but said that it may be due to the water breaking down under the combustion conditions and becoming a fuel.I have only come across one person who has succeded with this. He had a large container of water on the bonnet of a fairly heavy 6 cylinder car which he was using to make deliveries of large trailer loads of firewood. The water dripped into the air intake and he was getting a fuel economy about 30% better than would normally be expected.

The process of adding small amounts of water to the combustion chamber is called 'Water Injection'  It has _nothing_ to do with water breaking down and being burned.  It is a well known process that, amongst other things cools the chamber and improves the process of smooth combustion.

Here is a brief quote from wikipedia on the subject of Water Injection:

In internal combustion engines, water injection, also known as anti-detonant injection, is a method for cooling the combustion chambers of engines by adding water to the cylinder or incoming fuel-air mixture, allowing for greater compression ratios and largely eliminating the problem of engine knocking (detonation). This effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, meaning that performance gains can be obtained when used in conjunction with a supercharger or turbocharger, altered spark ignition timing, and other modifications.

the entire article can be found here:
newbielink:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines [nonactive])

Hope this is slightly enlightening.

diogenesNY
 

Offline alanan

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #59 on: 30/12/2009 04:50:20 »
 :D :DThanks mate, that is always what I thought it might be. would higher octane fuel lower the effect?
 

Offline DonOmite

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #60 on: 26/01/2010 22:32:40 »
This is rather amusing. All the die hard "scientists" here who throw around the Laws of Thermodynamics but don't seem to really understand what they are saying. I spent over 20 years living and breathing those laws in power plants.

According to some here, no fuel would work in a car because it would take more energy to create the fuel than it releases. But we have gasoline. The energy stored just needs to be released. ... don't scream yet ...

How about a nuclear power plant? We just give it a bit of a push and it is off and releasing huge amounts of energy.

So the same is true for water. In other fuels we don't see everything behind it to bring it to a power plant, with water you do. What is baffling the heck out of some of you is the end product is water thus you are thinking "perpetual motion". Nobody I know of has said that at all. There will be a price in water to pay.

Then the next negative argument is that it takes the same energy to break the bonds as you get out of burning it. BUT you are forgetting the other part of this. The gasoline. Like a match or a spark, it is a little thing that gets the energy released from the gasoline.

It is touched upon here that what the HHO is doing is helping with a more powerful explosion AND a more efficient explosion. More of the gasoline is ignited. What you need to look at is how much more energy is released from the gasoline due to the insertion of HHO. Is this extra energy enough to overcome the net loss of the water cycle? If yes, then the overall efficiency of the engine will go up and your gas mileage will go down. Of course you will be using water but it is far cheaper than gasoline.

I haven't seen any numbers showing what the gain in energy released from the gasoline is.

Of course one of the scams out there is the adjusting of the O2 sensor readings. That is an old trick that leans out the fuel and causes gas mileage to go up. Has nothing to do with what you are doing to the rest of the engine. But if you are running water or other additives, you may have to mess with it.
 

Offline nhoj

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Re: How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #61 on: 25/03/2012 04:16:59 »
you guys are funny!!!
As I see it there are still a couple of problems with using water derived H2 for an accelerant. 1) water introduces rust in iron blocks. 2) has anyone determined what and if there are more deadly toxins that can be made if H2 is introduced (just like H2O isn't flameable but H2O2 is NASTY) 3.) Have you EVER had to work on an engine block which had a water leak?? the oil is emulsified and not a very good lube anymore. I'm sure that H2 is a possibility, but is it wise???
 

Offline syhprum

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Re: How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #62 on: 26/03/2012 11:34:50 »
In Edwardian times injection of water along with the fuel was popular as very low octain fuel was all that was available and the injection of water enabled a higher expansion ratio (compression ratio) to be used without detonation.
There is little or nothing to be gained with modern fuel and engines.

On further reading I see that Diogenes NY has already covered this point very well
« Last Edit: 26/03/2012 11:38:50 by syhprum »
 

Offline dkeizer05

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Re: How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #63 on: 02/04/2012 03:52:53 »
::) :( When I was at school in the 1950's there was a section in my science book dealing with adding water through the carburetor of a car engine to increase economy.The text did not definitely state the cause but said that it may be due to the water breaking down under the combustion conditions and becoming a fuel.I have only come across one person who has succeded with this. He had a large container of water on the bonnet of a fairly heavy 6 cylinder car which he was using to make deliveries of large trailer loads of firewood. The water dripped into the air intake and he was getting a fuel economy about 30% better than would normally be expected.
I have heard that slowly adding water to a carburator of a running engine will aid in removing carbon deposits from inside the engine, which would go out the exhaust in a black smoke.  It may be possible that this would result in the more efficient operation of the motor rather than the water being part of the combustion process.
 

Offline peppercorn

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Re: How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #64 on: 02/04/2012 13:50:32 »
I have heard that slowly adding water to a carburator of a running engine will aid in removing carbon deposits from inside the engine, which would go out the exhaust in a black smoke.  It may be possible that this would result in the more efficient operation of the motor rather than the water being part of the combustion process.

Neither case is inherently a good reason to add water to the intake.
Water won;t play part of the combustion process, at least in any advantageous way (efficiency-wise).
Neither will it do much to clean carbon from all but the dirtiest or badly running carburetted engine for anything but the shortest of application (ie. maybe once in a while on an old non-injection engine).

Water (often in combination with Methanol) is injected into performance engines and this is a proven technology.  There is much available info on using this approach, particularly for high boost turbocharged engines, on the net.  And, in theory there the possibility to increase an engine's thermal efficiency along similar lines.
 

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Re: How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #64 on: 02/04/2012 13:50:32 »

 

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